/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-24 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Apr 24 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [00:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: if all html quirks that are required to be implemented in order to render the web are specced in html5 (for both quirks mode and standards mode), then html handling will only have one mode
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  8. # [00:14] <jgraham> zcorpan: Thats depends how you define "mode" surely? If the spec says "if the doctype is {some quirks mode doctype} do foo otherwise do bar" it's two modes but one spec, no?
  9. # [00:15] <zcorpan> jgraham: yes. i meant "always do foo, regardless of doctype"
  10. # [00:16] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  11. # [00:16] <zcorpan> which might include <!--> and <p><table>
  12. # [00:16] <jgraham> Oh, OK. I didn't think it was possible to make the quirks/standards distinction go away and still render the web
  13. # [00:17] <zcorpan> not for css, no
  14. # [00:17] <zcorpan> for html, i hope
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  16. # [00:19] <Philip`> Does <body bgcolor="bogus"> count as HTML? That appears to give different DOMs in quirks vs standards, so I guess it's an HTML parsing issue
  17. # [00:20] <zcorpan> Philip`: what happens in xhtml?
  18. # [00:20] <zcorpan> er
  19. # [00:20] <zcorpan> nm
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  21. # [00:21] <zcorpan> but if it's parsing, then yes
  22. # [00:24] <zcorpan> if we don't want to reintroduce this quirk into standards mode, then html will need two modes
  23. # [00:25] <Philip`> XHTML seems to do the same as HTML-standards - getAttribute('bgcolor') in FF gives 'bogus', and in Opera gives ''
  24. # [00:25] <zcorpan> ok
  25. # [00:25] <Philip`> (whereas both give '#b00000' in quirks)
  26. # [00:26] <zcorpan> does any browser not do this in quirks? does any do it in standards?
  27. # [00:27] <zcorpan> (not asking you to do my homework, only curious if you've already tested :) )
  28. # [00:28] <Philip`> IE does #b00000 in both, and apparently Safari does too
  29. # [00:28] <zcorpan> then it wouldn't be too harmful to reintroduce the quirk in gecko and opera in standards mode also :)
  30. # [00:30] <zcorpan> still need to find out whether content on the web relies on this quirk, but i'm sure it does
  31. # [00:31] <Philip`> Okay, I suppose that's reasonable :-)
  32. # [00:33] <Philip`> Ooh, I didn't have access to IE when this was discussed yesterday, but now I do, and it explains my ancient confusion as to why <body bgcolor="grey"> went green - I always assumed it was matching the best prefix ("gre..."), but actually it's ignoring the non-hex characters and getting #00e000
  33. # [00:33] <zcorpan> yep
  34. # [00:34] <Philip`> (Opera and FF implement the CSS3/SVG colour name "grey" as #808080, in both modes; IE gives green in both)
  35. # [00:35] <zcorpan> prepending the "#" seems be be parsing too
  36. # [00:36] <Philip`> (I would hope that not many sites depend on that behaviour - if they wanted green, they'd type in "green", and if they accidentally typed in "grey" they'd have quickly noticed it wasn't quite the design they wanted and they should have fixed the spelling...)
  37. # [00:37] <zcorpan> grey == gray in other browsers
  38. # [00:40] <h3h> silly people. it's "gray"
  39. # [00:42] <zcorpan> h3h: i don't care about which spelling is correct, i care about knowing (and perhaps speccing) what browsers have to implement
  40. # [00:42] <h3h> hehe :)
  41. # [00:42] <h3h> both, to be safe
  42. # [00:43] <zcorpan> they're both css3 color keywords, so yeah
  43. # [00:43] <zcorpan> however introducing more keywords here might break stuff
  44. # [00:43] <zcorpan> so the list of keywords might not be the same as css3 keywords
  45. # [00:44] <h3h> you think apps depend on "grey" rendering as green in IE?
  46. # [00:44] <zcorpan> given the other browser treat it as a keywords, no
  47. # [00:44] <h3h> (not that it would matter anyway, because you'd have to opt in to really super extra ultra standards mode first)
  48. # [00:45] <Philip`> CSS3 says it got the colours from SVG, but SVG doesn't say where its list came from - does anyone know why SVG has both "grey" and "gray" variants?
  49. # [00:45] <Hixie> they come from the x11 rgb.txt file iirc
  50. # [00:47] <Philip`> Hmm, my rgb.txt has at least 202 extra grey values (gray0..gray100, grey0..grey100) so it's not just copying all of those
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  54. # [01:15] <Zoffix> Offtopic: I had problems subscribing to W3C mailing lists. I would send requests but get no answer. Bert took a look and it seems he fixed the issue. I am getting messages, but I've just sent one to the mailing list and did not receive it from the mailing list. Is that normal that I would not get my own messages?
  55. # [01:15] <Hixie> no
  56. # [01:15] <Hixie> the first time you post you should get a message asking if you mind being archived
  57. # [01:16] <Zoffix> I see. So I am not getting any, umm "system" messages still :\ Wonder what's going on, since I did try from an alternative e-mail address when I had that subscribing issue.
  58. # [01:21] <Hixie> maybe the messages are getting caught in a spam filter?
  59. # [01:23] <Zoffix> Thing is that I don't have any spam filters. At least I am not aware of any. And the subscription problems were on 2 addresses not related to each other in any way (except both have `zoffix` string)
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  61. # [01:25] <Hixie> weird
  62. # [01:26] <Zoffix> Bert wrote: As far as I can see, our mailing list software got your requests and
  63. # [01:26] <Zoffix> sent you back a confirmation message with a numeric code. I don't know
  64. # [01:26] <Zoffix> why you didn't get it.
  65. # [01:26] <Zoffix> Anyway, I added <admin@zoffix.com> by hand. You should now start
  66. # [01:26] <Zoffix> receiving mail from the <www-style@w3.org> mailing list.
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  68. # [01:37] <h3h> hooray, Sam Ruby joined representing IBM -- http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2007/04/23/HTML-WG-me
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  88. # [05:00] <karl> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
  89. # [05:00] <karl> hmmm it seems there is a need to put version numbers beside the names
  90. # [05:01] <karl> or at least something like (> version xxxx)
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  100. # [07:13] <anne5> back in NL
  101. # [07:15] <anne5> the good thing about 24 hour aeroplane trips (twice) is that you can catch up with all the good movies, finish your book, see some tv series, get sleep, read some newspaper material and get free food and wine all the time
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  105. # [07:22] <anne5> to continue my monologue, I saw Babel, Blood Diamond, The Pursuit of Happyness, Freedom Writers, The Good Shepherd, The Holiday (not very good), Code Name: The Cleaner (not very good) and some other film of which I can't remember the title
  106. # [07:23] <anne5> about a teacher having an affair with a student and some other teacher abusing that situation
  107. # [07:24] <mjs> that's a whole lotta movies
  108. # [07:24] <anne5> 24 hours going there and 24 hours going back :)
  109. # [07:25] * anne5 also some episodes of The Simpsons and The Office (American edition)
  110. # [07:26] <mjs> you're back in time to watch the WG play Musical Chairs
  111. # [07:26] <mjs> maybe once we get up to 10, people will feel the minimum level of disagreement is met
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  113. # [07:40] <anne5> how does throwing more editors at the problem solve anything?
  114. # [07:41] <anne5> isn't the editor solely the person who does all the hard work trying to please the WG?
  115. # [07:42] <mjs> apparently they can do that better if they are fighting each other
  116. # [07:42] <karl> anne5: it depends on the group and the tracking issue system. I think one fundamental components of accountability of editing work is the issue tracking.
  117. # [07:43] <karl> paper trail.
  118. # [07:43] <anne5> there's a mailing list
  119. # [07:44] <anne5> all debated WHATWG issues have a paper trail
  120. # [07:44] <anne5> all the non-debated ones probably don't have consensus
  121. # [07:44] <karl> do the non-debated ones go into the document?
  122. # [07:46] <anne5> everything is in the document
  123. # [07:47] <anne5> which makes it easier to see how things might interconnect, what ideas currently are, etc.
  124. # [07:47] <karl> for the editor :)
  125. # [07:47] <anne5> for progress too
  126. # [07:47] <anne5> for me, as a reviewer, too
  127. # [07:48] <anne5> what's wrong with it?
  128. # [07:48] <karl> but how do you know as a reviewer if something has been already discussed.
  129. # [07:48] <anne5> parts of the spec are marked as stable or unstable
  130. # [07:49] <anne5> people made a little script that annotates the spec like that, although it's not entirely done yet
  131. # [07:49] <anne5> though currently it's pretty clear through things like red blobs
  132. # [07:49] <karl> interesting
  133. # [07:49] <karl> using class names?
  134. # [07:50] <karl> are there links back from the document to the mailing-list where the issue has been debated?
  135. # [07:50] <anne5> I think the ids of the section
  136. # [07:50] <anne5> no
  137. # [07:50] <karl> or collecting the different thread
  138. # [07:50] <anne5> you can use google for that
  139. # [07:50] <anne5> or some other search engine of your choice, of course...
  140. # [07:52] <karl> poor usability but it could work with efforts
  141. # [07:52] <anne5> this approach might not accessible enough for everyone, but people will have to step forward to improve the situation in that case
  142. # [07:53] <anne5> you can't leave it all up to the people who think it already works good enough, I think
  143. # [07:56] <karl> my main worry is that the web communities surrounding html feel that they own the specification. And lack of tracking (power of hyperlink) dilutes trust often.
  144. # [07:58] <anne5> they just started feeling that or so?
  145. # [07:58] <anne5> afaik HTML development was sort of on hold
  146. # [07:58] <anne5> as far as the W3C was concerned anyway
  147. # [07:59] <karl> it was not on hold. a part of the community decided to take one path, another community decided to take another path.
  148. # [08:00] <karl> It is normal, it is part of market forces and pressures, on many sides with different type of interests.
  149. # [08:00] <anne5> i'm not sure what you're trying to say
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  151. # [08:01] <karl> *smile*
  152. # [08:02] <sbuluf> an effect of "standards via consensus" under capitalism
  153. # [08:03] <karl> sbuluf: yes
  154. # [08:04] <anne5> (WHATWG doesn't do the typical "consensus" deal though)
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  163. # [08:49] <Hixie> oh hey sam joined the htmlwg, cool
  164. # [08:50] <anne5> whoa
  165. # [08:50] <anne5> sam 'intertwingly' sam?
  166. # [08:50] <karl> yes
  167. # [08:51] <anne5> indeed he did
  168. # [08:51] <anne5> and IBM joined as a result
  169. # [08:51] <hsivonen> can't find any sam on the member list
  170. # [08:51] <karl> hmm the opposite :p
  171. # [08:51] <karl> IBM joined and then Sam Ruby is part of the group as a result
  172. # [08:52] <Hixie> hsivonen: he's there.
  173. # [08:52] <anne5> I'm just stating how I think it went (which might be wrong)
  174. # [08:52] <hsivonen> my guess is that anne5's order of causality is right
  175. # [08:53] <hsivonen> ooh. now I see him on the list
  176. # [08:53] <anne5> he posted too
  177. # [08:53] <hsivonen> anyway. this is excellent news
  178. # [08:54] <anne5> btw, does dhyatt really agree with cwilso on versioning or did he just find himself agreeing with cwilso on a lot of points?
  179. # [08:54] <karl> yes definitely a good news
  180. # [08:54] <hsivonen> anne5: with his corporate address. this is new. :-)
  181. # [08:55] <anne5> yeah, very nice
  182. # [08:55] <Hixie> oh and now he's posting
  183. # [08:55] <Hixie> heh
  184. # [08:55] * anne5 wonders if John Boyer knows
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  186. # [09:00] * anne5 thinks Sam Ruby has a great talent for trying to let people see things through other perspectives
  187. # [09:01] <karl> anne5: yes. He is a bit more grounded in human arguments than geeks utopia.
  188. # [09:01] <anne5> "<hsivonen> the moron and the asshole fighting in me" heh
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  190. # [09:07] <karl> hmmm interesting just saved an RTF file as html with TextEdit on mac os x
  191. # [09:07] <karl> <meta name="Generator" content="Cocoa HTML Writer" />
  192. # [09:07] <karl> saved as XHTML strict.
  193. # [09:07] <karl> UTF-8
  194. # [09:08] <karl> and a style element with all style information
  195. # [09:08] <karl> only one mistake
  196. # [09:08] <anne5> and lots of ids?
  197. # [09:08] <karl> anne5: nope class name
  198. # [09:08] <karl> and reused
  199. # [09:08] <karl> not individual
  200. # [09:08] <karl> so it means factorization of styles
  201. # [09:08] <anne5> whoa, what's up with www-html?!
  202. # [09:09] <hsivonen> hmm. Markus Mielke of Microsoft has joined as well
  203. # [09:09] <anne5> he's their primary CSS rep iirc
  204. # [09:09] <sbuluf> karl, pretty decent, right?
  205. # [09:09] <hsivonen> anne5: do you mean the strict anti-HTML5 sentiment until this WG chooses HTML5 as the starting point?
  206. # [09:10] <karl> yes not bad. There are still things to save space. but it's quite good
  207. # [09:10] <anne5> hsivonen, more the amount of messages
  208. # [09:10] * anne5 only read the misguided one about <script />
  209. # [09:10] <anne5> not any of the follow ups
  210. # [09:10] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  211. # [09:11] <hsivonen> anne5: check out Tina Holmboe's follow-ups
  212. # [09:11] <anne5> that name rings a bell
  213. # [09:11] <hsivonen> karl: does www-html have a stated purpose these days? is it still a list for the XHTML 2.0 WG for feedback from those who haven't jumped through the patent policy hoops?
  214. # [09:13] <karl> hsivonen: general discussion about HTML
  215. # [09:13] <hsivonen> karl: ok.
  216. # [09:14] <sbuluf> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0009.html <-- "From now on we should only use the <public-xhtml2@w3.org> mailing list."
  217. # [09:15] <karl> sbuluf: for XHTML 2.0 WG work
  218. # [09:15] <sbuluf> karl, yes.
  219. # [09:15] <hsivonen> sbuluf: so if someone who isn't a member of the xhtml 2.0 WG wants to send feedback about xhtml 2.0, where should the feedback be sent? to public-xhtml2?
  220. # [09:16] <karl> hsivonen: to the address given in the specification.
  221. # [09:17] <sbuluf> hsivonen, apparently yes, that seems to be the list where xhtml2 work is done. however, if www-html is for html discussion, generally, then it also can be sent there, i assume.
  222. # [09:18] <anne5> feedback e-mailed to www-html has traditionally been ignored
  223. # [09:18] <karl> anne5: not exactly. It depends on what you call feedback
  224. # [09:18] <anne5> well, it depends on what you call "ignored" I suppose
  225. # [09:19] <anne5> they do track it somewhere and waste telcon time on it
  226. # [09:20] <karl> is "ignored" unanswered emails?
  227. # [09:20] <anne5> "I strongly suggest that it should /not/ be referenced to implementors." reality check...
  228. # [09:20] <anne5> implementors are doing that spec
  229. # [09:20] <anne5> (re: www-html)
  230. # [09:21] <anne5> karl, that and not resolving repeatedly raised issues
  231. # [09:21] <anne5> seems that Tina needs more than one reality check
  232. # [09:22] <anne5> it's quite an amusing thread
  233. # [09:22] <karl> so www-html has never been the list to raise issues. www-html-editor is.
  234. # [09:22] <karl> though agreed that the issues list system from the group was difficult to follow
  235. # [09:23] <anne5> oh right
  236. # [09:23] <karl> for ignored emails, I guess they are not ignored but sometimes people don't feel like replying. It's happening everywhere ex: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/011002.html
  237. # [09:23] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
  238. # [09:23] <anne5> what i said applies to www-html-editor
  239. # [09:23] <anne5> sorry
  240. # [09:24] <mjs> should I subscribe to www-html or would it just make me sad?
  241. # [09:24] <anne5> the list names are a mess btw
  242. # [09:24] <anne5> mjs, it wouldn't help you
  243. # [09:24] <anne5> mjs, although you could read the archives for fun :)
  244. # [09:24] <karl> mjs do you have a news reader?
  245. # [09:24] <hsivonen> karl: so basically, for HTML5 we have public-html (soon hopefully) with Patent Policy and whatwg without Patent Policy. for XHTML 2.0 we have public-xhtml2 with Patent Policy and www-html-editor without Patent Policy
  246. # [09:25] <mjs> karl: I have a mail reader that aggressively sorts mailing lists into folders
  247. # [09:25] <karl> mjs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/feed.rss
  248. # [09:25] <hsivonen> karl: that leaves www-html in a not-so-useful position
  249. # [09:26] <anne5> tina@ivorytower.net
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  251. # [09:26] <karl> hsivonen: it has already been said by Dan Connolly on the list.
  252. # [09:26] <karl> The initial plan was to reuse www-html
  253. # [09:26] <karl> but there was a social issue with this
  254. # [09:26] <karl> as unsubscribing everyone
  255. # [09:26] <karl> and asking everyone to join again
  256. # [09:26] <mjs> is www-html-editor a public list?
  257. # [09:26] <karl> so another list has been created for it
  258. # [09:27] <karl> www-html-editor is a list for collecting issues
  259. # [09:27] <hsivonen> karl: yeah, I know. so www-html is left for old-timers who haven't noticed what's going on around them. :-/
  260. # [09:27] <mjs> wow, www-html is having lots of discussion
  261. # [09:27] <karl> about XHTML 2.0 in the past
  262. # [09:27] <mjs> someone wake me up when/if I should care
  263. # [09:27] <karl> hsivonen: I sent a message for this purpose on www-html
  264. # [09:28] <mjs> I am happy to see that Sam Ruby has joined the group
  265. # [09:28] <karl> and it resulted in more processing for me ;) more invited experts
  266. # [09:28] <anne5> www-html-editor is public, yes
  267. # [09:28] <anne5> iirc all www- prefixed lists are public
  268. # [09:28] <anne5> w3c- prefixes lists are member and w3t- prefixes lists are team only
  269. # [09:28] <mjs> "and lack W3C, ISO or ECMA credentials." -- as if ECMA credentials mean anything
  270. # [09:28] <anne5> prefixed, even
  271. # [09:28] <karl> the first blogger who talk about html wg again, and I do a DOS attack on his/her weblog. <kidding/>
  272. # [09:29] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  273. # [09:29] <anne5> although now we got public- and member- which make for rather redundant URIs...
  274. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> anne5 - what exactly does Tina Holmboe do? an implementor?
  275. # [09:29] <mjs> I am tempted to +1 Sam's message
  276. # [09:30] <mjs> someone restrain me
  277. # [09:30] <anne5> MikeSmith, greytower.net ?
  278. # [09:30] <sbuluf> mjs, hi. re my question yesterday, i went to #webkit and asked there. david hyatt answered me, very helpful.
  279. # [09:30] <karl> ok time to ride a train
  280. # [09:30] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  281. # [09:30] <anne5> mjs, I think +100,000 would better suit the current trend
  282. # [09:30] <mjs> anne5: can I just do +Inf?
  283. # [09:30] <anne5> :)
  284. # [09:31] <mjs> anne5: then no machine-based numeric format can represent a greater value
  285. # [09:31] <sbuluf> mjs: apparently, if one got rid of tagsoup, move to strictness and xml, then not much code can get removed ( 4 files from a tree of 1000+ ). that code *is* complicated, though, so engeneering time would be saved. however, in terms of code size, is apparently litle.
  286. # [09:31] <mjs> so I win
  287. # [09:31] <Ashe> mjs: +Aleph2
  288. # [09:31] <mjs> sbuluf: yes, the HTML parser and tokenizer are not much of the code
  289. # [09:31] <mjs> Ashe: not a valid IEEE floating point value
  290. # [09:32] <sbuluf> mjs, yep, that's apparently it, and it is the file david mentioned.
  291. # [09:32] <mjs> sbuluf: most of the code is implementing the core DOM, CSS and style resolution, layout and rendering, JavaScript, SVG, loading, etc
  292. # [09:32] <Ashe> damn... we should include it in the spec
  293. # [09:32] <anne5> sbuluf, syntax isn't really worth debating much about
  294. # [09:32] <anne5> but I've said that before I think
  295. # [09:32] <mjs> it's true that the html parser and tokenizer are very tricky code that deliberately plays to many quirks
  296. # [09:32] <mjs> but very little of the total complexity of a browser engine is in HTML error handling
  297. # [09:32] * Ashe is now known as AGraf
  298. # [09:32] <anne5> the complexity is in the vocabulary
  299. # [09:33] <mjs> I think you would find the same for Gecko
  300. # [09:33] <anne5> (if we're just talking about HTML)
  301. # [09:33] <sbuluf> mjs, anne: yep, i see.
  302. # [09:34] <sbuluf> mjs, yep, i expect about the same in other browsers, right.
  303. # [09:34] <sbuluf> anne, yes, you mentioned. what do you mean by complexity is in the vocabulary, though?
  304. # [09:35] <anne5> implementing all the semantics and prolly the related stuff like rendering of it, the apis, etc.
  305. # [09:35] <mjs> it's actually implementing what the elements do (and what various CSS properties and DOM methods do) that is where the complexity lies
  306. # [09:35] <mjs> in WebKit, I would say the two pieces of code that most require expert knowledge are the render tree and the JS interpreter
  307. # [09:36] <sbuluf> mm, mjs, anne, excuse me but...wasn't that included if one mentioned moving to an strict language?
  308. # [09:36] <anne5> ?
  309. # [09:37] <anne5> what the hell is "strict language"?
  310. # [09:37] <mjs> sbuluf: I dunno what you mean
  311. # [09:37] <sbuluf> no error handling code, crash on erros
  312. # [09:37] <anne5> XML is just a particular serialization to create a DOM tree
  313. # [09:37] <anne5> HTML is another one
  314. # [09:37] <mjs> but using only a strict parser of some kind (like an XML parser) would remove very little of the complexity in the engine
  315. # [09:37] <anne5> HTML is slightly more complex due to error recovery
  316. # [09:38] <anne5> XML is slightly more complicated due to its internal subset parsing
  317. # [09:38] <mjs> CSS text layout and interpreting a dynamic language are both orders of magnitude harder than HTML parsing
  318. # [09:38] <mjs> a lot of people mistakenly think browsers could be a lot simpler "if only we removed all that error handling cruft"
  319. # [09:38] <mjs> but that is simply untrue
  320. # [09:38] <anne5> the syntax used doesn't have any effect on other aspects of the language though
  321. # [09:38] <sbuluf> i suspected css being way harder, right.
  322. # [09:39] <sbuluf> mjs, i see, thanks.
  323. # [09:43] <sbuluf> anne, i have the feeling that when i mention xml-based languages, you tend to think of it as "a little different way of actually writing the content". in my mind, however, what it really means is no error handling, and easier-processing, due to strictness. am i too far off? something i'm not seeing?
  324. # [09:43] <sbuluf> (honest question, no irony)
  325. # [09:43] <mjs> sbuluf: XML parsers aren't much simpler than HTML parsers
  326. # [09:43] <anne5> you're right about my opinion
  327. # [09:43] <mjs> consider that most browsers use an external XML parser library which is in total considerably larger than their HTML parser code
  328. # [09:44] <anne5> I'm not sure about easier-processing (see internal subset as mentioned above for instance)
  329. # [09:44] <anne5> error handling for XML can be done pretty trivially
  330. # [09:45] <sbuluf> i'd need to find some info about internal subset, yes, thanks.
  331. # [09:45] * anne5 hopes to define a prototype of that in the next two months
  332. # [09:46] * anne5 will then go in hiding in fear of the XML gods
  333. # [09:46] <mjs> libxml2 is about 103893 lines of code
  334. # [09:47] <sbuluf> mjs, such library can be reused for other xml-based languages, though, right? so is more general? if not, where does the extra size comes from?
  335. # [09:47] <sbuluf> anne, you mean your xml 2 plan?
  336. # [09:47] <mjs> WebKit's HTML parser is 3742 lines of code (by the most general measure I could find)
  337. # [09:47] <anne5> yeah, might rename it xml5 for controversy points
  338. # [09:48] <sbuluf> 5.2, please =P
  339. # [09:49] * Quits: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229) (Ping timeout)
  340. # [09:49] * anne5 wonders if mjs is going to fight with chris over http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2007AprJun/0217.html
  341. # [09:50] <mjs> anne5: Oliver was just asking me about that
  342. # [09:50] <mjs> I pointed out to him that it is more complex than it seems and badly underspecified
  343. # [09:50] <anne5> yeah, the multiple ID issue seems to go completely unmentioned
  344. # [09:50] <anne5> Opera doesn't do #foo#bar for instance
  345. # [09:50] <anne5> and I'm not sure we should
  346. # [09:51] <anne5> it would make more sense to me if SVG would be consistent with itself (SVG 1.1), HTML, XBL, MathML, etc.
  347. # [09:51] <hsivonen> I wonder if Chris read smaug's patch
  348. # [09:51] <hsivonen> looks like he didn't
  349. # [09:51] <anne5> this seems like adding complexity for the sake of it
  350. # [09:52] <anne5> and for the sake of getting specs with an X implemented in anything interesting...
  351. # [09:52] <mjs> ok, I have to stop reading that archive before I accidentally read more about Traits and get angry
  352. # [09:52] <hsivonen> anne5: your stance is very different indeed from a year ago, which is good. :-)
  353. # [09:53] <anne5> Hixie has a nice policy about that... always willing to change his position in the light of new evidence
  354. # [09:53] * hsivonen doesn't even know what Traits with a capital T are
  355. # [09:54] <sbuluf> (or is. perhaps a person)
  356. # [09:54] <hsivonen> anne5: that's the policy that makes sense
  357. # [09:54] <mjs> hsivonen: some crazy SVG thing
  358. # [09:54] <anne5> I suppose the other one is "XML is supreme" :p
  359. # [09:56] <hsivonen> btw, implementing xml:id on top of SAX is remarkably simple if one doesn't support old parsers / class libraries
  360. # [09:56] <mjs> hsivonen: your emails are just too sensible sometimes,
  361. # [09:56] <hsivonen> most of the complexity in Norman Walsh's implementation is due to using reflection to accommodate old parsers and JDKs
  362. # [09:56] <hsivonen> mjs: what did I say now?
  363. # [09:57] <mjs> hsivonen: just a general trend
  364. # [09:57] <hsivonen> mjs: thanks
  365. # [09:57] <mjs> the tricky parts of xml:id are what to do if an element has both that and another id
  366. # [09:58] <mjs> first of all it is unspecified, and second any specification with at all sane behavior would be fairly tricky to implement in browser-type DOMs
  367. # [09:58] * anne5 concurs with mjs regarding hsivonen's e-mails :)
  368. # [09:58] <anne5> s/concurs/agrees/, I suppose
  369. # [09:59] <sbuluf> anne, re your xml 2 thing, if i remember correctly, tim bray┤s reaction was not condemning, for whatever is worth
  370. # [09:59] <anne5> mjs, so DOM Level 3 Core actually supports multiple IDs per element and has interfaces for that
  371. # [09:59] <hsivonen> mjs: a SAX filter that implements xml:id assigns IDness. what to do with the IDness is Someone Else's Problem :-)
  372. # [09:59] <anne5> mjs, but I think those should be dropped
  373. # [10:00] <mjs> anne5: that doesn't really tell me what HTMLElement.id should return though
  374. # [10:00] <anne5> you get setIdAttribute() or something ofr instance and Attr.isId
  375. # [10:00] <mjs> (and I also agree they should be dropped)
  376. # [10:00] <anne5> mjs, fair enough
  377. # [10:00] <anne5> actually, HTMLElement.id always reflects the id content attribute
  378. # [10:00] <anne5> that should be pretty clear
  379. # [10:01] <sbuluf> (mjs, thanks for checking those xml/html parsers numbers, btw. i assume they are not ceteris paribus, though (same functionality))
  380. # [10:01] <hsivonen> anyway, it would have been so much more productive to define an id filter that assigns IDness to attributes names id that aren't in a namespace.
  381. # [10:02] <mjs> anne5: so it should be null for an XHTML element that has an xml:id but not an id attribute?
  382. # [10:02] <anne5> the xmllib prolly also includes things like XPath, XSLT, etc.
  383. # [10:02] <sbuluf> anne5, yep, i asee, thanks.
  384. # [10:02] <mjs> making "id" the xml-generic ID attribute would have been much simpler
  385. # [10:02] <hsivonen> anne5: libxml2 includes a whole lot more than just a parser
  386. # [10:02] <mjs> I'm not sure why they didn't do that
  387. # [10:03] <anne5> mjs, compat with non web content
  388. # [10:03] <hsivonen> mjs: there was a chance that someone somewhere was using the name id for something else, I guess
  389. # [10:03] <anne5> after all, the W3C is leading the web to its full potential
  390. # [10:03] <anne5> oh... wait
  391. # [10:03] <mjs> anne5: I didn't know the web had so much potential for sucking
  392. # [10:04] <anne5> it would have been so much simpler and more consistent if id= would've been it
  393. # [10:05] <mjs> maybe we could get the XML Core WG to publish a short erratum on xml:id: s/xml://g
  394. # [10:06] <anne5> you might find migrating to the moon to be more trivial
  395. # [10:06] <mjs> the xml: really seems like it is more about brand value than conflict avoidance
  396. # [10:06] <sbuluf> rationale's for design decisions should always be published, i think.
  397. # [10:07] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  398. # [10:10] <anne5> another "acceptable" solution would that if both id and xml:id are specified for a known vocabulary xml:id is "ignored"
  399. # [10:11] <anne5> and that .id can return the xml:id value if id is not specified or something
  400. # [10:11] <anne5> but there doesn't seem to be much point in that
  401. # [10:13] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.60.8)
  402. # [10:13] <mjs> people need to think more about interactions with other technologies
  403. # [10:14] <sbuluf> mjs: what do you have in mind when saying it?
  404. # [10:15] <anne5> and by that we mean the web as implemented in our products :)
  405. # [10:15] <anne5> (given that the product reflects what content is out there, of course)
  406. # [10:15] <mjs> well, I suppose there are some specs relative to which the web is clearly a foreign technology
  407. # [10:20] <mjs> "Implementing, re-implementing, and then re-re-implementing is only a good idea in ivory towers"
  408. # [10:20] <mjs> awesome, implementing is now an ivory tower practice
  409. # [10:21] <anne5> heh, where did you get that from?
  410. # [10:21] <mjs> one of Tina Holmboe's messages
  411. # [10:23] <mjs> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Apr/0076.html
  412. # [10:24] <anne5> ouch
  413. # [10:24] <anne5> no wonder WCAG is such a mess
  414. # [10:25] <anne5> even at the uni they'll tell you that software and software design is an iterative process and not a design once kind of thing...
  415. # [10:26] <anne5> also the claim that HTML4 would be a better starting point...
  416. # [10:27] <mjs> anne5: "at the uni" == "ivory tower"
  417. # [10:27] <mjs> :-p
  418. # [10:27] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  419. # [10:28] <sbuluf> you towerist! =P
  420. # [10:28] <anne5> mjs, heh, fair point :)
  421. # [10:29] <anne5> when I followed that subject I thought they went rather pragmatic about it as opposed to idealistic
  422. # [10:30] * MikeSmith wonders why you guys care much about what Tina Holmboe thinks
  423. # [10:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: back in the old ciwah days I considered her to be in the clueful minority
  424. # [10:32] <anne5> for me it's morning, I've got a slight jet lag and I like talking about HTML crap
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  426. # [10:33] <anne5> MikeSmith, also, know your "opponents"
  427. # [10:33] <mjs> MikeSmith: someone pointed out her messages, I read the archives and was amused
  428. # [10:33] <mjs> probably an immature reaction
  429. # [10:34] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: anyway, I though she might still be considered an opinion leader. I may be wrong.
  430. # [10:34] <anne5> I think life without amusement might get rather boring
  431. # [10:34] <anne5> think that*
  432. # [10:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - she could be be for all I know
  433. # [10:35] <MikeSmith> But I guess in this case it seems clear that she's made her mind up already and unlikely to change it.
  434. # [10:37] <sbuluf> anne, at some moment i'd like to talk a little about the xml error handling thing, if possible. dunno when, however (some moment that does not interfere in your routine)
  435. # [10:39] <anne5> e-mail would not interfere with my routine
  436. # [10:39] <anne5> as far as I've such a thing...
  437. # [10:40] <sbuluf> hehe. right can i email you on that, then?
  438. # [10:40] <anne5> sure
  439. # [10:40] <anne5> annevk@opera.com
  440. # [10:40] <sbuluf> right, thanks.
  441. # [10:40] * Quits: loic (loic@90.29.106.117) (Ping timeout)
  442. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> mjs - btw, about dhyatt as co-editor, fwiw, speaking simply for myself personally (not at all for W3C -- I haven't talked about it with DanC nor anybody), I think it would be great
  443. # [10:41] <MikeSmith> but that said, I have to say I wonder how much time he would have to actually do spec editing
  444. # [10:41] <anne5> you suggested that earlier on this channel iirc
  445. # [10:42] <anne5> I think I said that I wouldn't think dhyatt would be interested in such a thing... hah
  446. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> heh
  447. # [10:42] <mjs> MikeSmith: he was reluctant to do it at first since he has many responsibilities, but decided ultimately that it would be worth it to find the time and break the seeming impasse in the group
  448. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> mjs - OK
  449. # [10:43] <mjs> I think he'd probably end up checking in text changes less than Hixie but is still valuable as a counter-balancing voice that Hixie is highly likely to listen to
  450. # [10:43] <MikeSmith> I guess speaking as a Webkit/Safari user, I would personally hope it wouldn't cut too much into his coding time ...
  451. # [10:43] <mjs> heh
  452. # [10:44] <mjs> I doubt we can stop him from coding
  453. # [10:44] <mjs> but yes, it's a problem that a lot of the people in the best position to be spec contributors are busy actually working on browsers
  454. # [10:44] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can see that's probably true
  455. # [10:44] <mjs> my flurry of list activity has not stopped me from coding
  456. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> also people busy with working another full-time job while also working on browser
  457. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> browsers
  458. # [10:45] * mjs sped up JavaScript in WebKit by about 18% the past two weeks
  459. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> like, say, Lars Knoll
  460. # [10:45] <mjs> yes, it would be nice if he could contribute, but I asked him and he said he didn't have time for a third job
  461. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> (cheers for speeding up Webkit JS speed)
  462. # [10:46] <mjs> Opera is our only real competitor on that, at least on benchmarks that are more than just empty loops
  463. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> well, you also have the Adobe Actionscript to contend with now, I guess
  464. # [10:47] <MikeSmith> in terms of performance
  465. # [10:47] <mjs> we will see what kind of numbers Tamarin posts when it is actually usable in the browser
  466. # [10:48] * mjs finds competition stimulating
  467. # [10:48] <sbuluf> #webkit seems pretty lifey
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  483. # [13:38] <anne5> karl, any chance you can follow up on the mailing list regarding a location and such?
  484. # [13:38] <anne5> I suppose we could do it Thursday after XTech
  485. # [13:39] <anne5> I believe there's an XTech thingie on Wednesday evening and it seems that people are either working or might be travelling on Friday afternoon
  486. # [13:41] <anne5> Philip`, fwiw, we had some open issues with createRadialGradient
  487. # [13:42] <anne5> Philip`, if you're going to do testing, I think it makes the most sense to test what Apple does and whether that matches the spec...
  488. # [13:58] <Philip`> anne5: From what I can see, the spec and Safari (2.0.4) and Opera (9.20) and Firefox (2) and Firefox (trunk) are all mutually incompatible, but spec/Safari/Firefox-trunk are fairly similar in most respects ...
  489. # [13:59] <Philip`> ... so I'm thinking the most sensible approaches would either be to specify what Safari or Firefox does, in which case the other will have not-entirely-trivial work to change their graphics library's gradient rendering, or to specify something that's different to both but easily implementable by both
  490. # [14:02] <Philip`> (The main Firefox/Safari difference is what gets drawn outside the circles when the start/end circles don't overlap - Firefox fills the whole background area with a linear gradient, while Safari draws an infinite cone; maybe it'd be reasonable just to clip off everything outside the finite cone where they agree, since that should be fairly straightforward)
  491. # [14:04] <Philip`> ((But I'll try to look at it again and think more when I have more time))
  492. # [14:06] <zcorpan> (((you like to talk in parenthesis don't you)))
  493. # [14:07] <Philip`> (((Yes, because it's indicating that what I'm saying is not important and people should be free to ignore it ;-) )))
  494. # [14:07] <zcorpan> (((ok)))
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  508. # [16:01] <zcorpan> i can't make sense of Dmitry Turin's proposals
  509. # [16:02] <anne5> he wants radically different things, I think
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  511. # [16:03] <anne5> having said that, I should really go somewhere else
  512. # [16:04] * zcorpan should go to the gym
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  528. # [17:28] * Joins: polin8_ (polin8@64.81.134.176)
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  539. # [18:23] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Ping timeout)
  540. # [18:26] * Quits: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229) (Connection reset by peer)
  541. # [18:28] * Joins: Voluminous (Voluminous@66.195.32.2)
  542. # [18:32] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@83.198.178.43) (Client exited)
  543. # [18:34] * Joins: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229)
  544. # [18:37] * Voluminous waves.
  545. # [18:38] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
  546. # [18:38] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
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  548. # [18:47] * Quits: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32) (Quit: Leaving...)
  549. # [18:50] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  550. # [18:57] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
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  556. # [19:27] * Joins: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32)
  557. # [19:33] * Quits: myakura (myakura@60.239.122.32) (Quit: Leaving...)
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  569. # [20:52] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
  570. # [20:52] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@83.198.178.43) (Client exited)
  571. # [20:55] * Quits: loic (loic@90.29.166.170) (Quit: hoopa rules)
  572. # [20:58] * Quits: olli- (olli@80.203.95.229) (Ping timeout)
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  579. # [22:31] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  580. # [23:01] * Quits: Lachy (Lachlan@124.168.27.56) (Ping timeout)
  581. # [23:09] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Quit: http://eric.daspet.name/ et l'├ędition 2007 de http://www.paris-web.fr/ )
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  585. # [23:15] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
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  593. # [23:29] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: polin8)
  594. # [23:32] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Ping timeout)
  595. # [23:35] * Joins: zdenko (zdenko@84.255.203.169)
  596. # [23:37] * Quits: Sander (svl@80.60.87.115) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  597. # [23:43] * Joins: Voluminous (Voluminous@66.195.32.2)
  598. # Session Close: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2007

The end :)