/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Apr 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  33. # [03:22] * Lachy is very surpised by Hyatt's opinion on versioning
  34. # [03:22] <Hixie> he didn't express it well
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  37. # [03:22] <Lachy> I noticed
  38. # [03:23] <Hixie> i discussed it with him and basically he doesn't care about versioning itself, he just thinks that IE will need an opt-in
  39. # [03:23] <Hixie> which is indeed probably true, though sad
  40. # [03:23] <Hixie> and still, imho, anticompetitive
  41. # [03:23] <Hixie> though other people seem less pessimistic than i about whether or not we'll ever need other browsers to support these versions
  42. # [03:23] <Lachy> I don't understand his logic for the version in the DOCTYPE, which says: "Even if we never use the version number for anything, ..., it's still good language design"
  43. # [03:24] <Hixie> yeah, he somewhat backed off from that when i talked to him about it
  44. # [03:26] <mjs> I talked to him about it on internal IRC even before that
  45. # [03:27] <mjs> I pointed out that none of CSS, JavaScript, PNG or ASCII plaintext have an in-format version number
  46. # [03:29] <Zeros> There are versions of ascii?
  47. # [03:29] <mjs> no
  48. # [03:29] <mjs> well, maybe
  49. # [03:30] <mjs> I have no idea how many versions of the ASCII standard there may have been
  50. # [03:30] <Hixie> a lot
  51. # [03:30] <Lachy> there are several versions of unicode, yet there are no version ids in that either
  52. # [03:32] <Zeros> Lachy, Different example would be the BOM which can be used to determine what kind of document it is
  53. # [03:35] <Zeros> mjs, a counter example would be the plist XML serialization that has a doctype, a dtd and a version attribute
  54. # [03:36] <mjs> Zeros: I would consider PNG and CSS to be more successful formats than plist
  55. # [03:36] <mjs> I'm not sure plist is an example of very good XML design
  56. # [03:36] <mjs> let alone language design generally
  57. # [03:36] <mjs> but that's neither here nor there
  58. # [03:36] <mjs> clearly useful formats can have a version or not - I don't think it's an absolute one way or the other
  59. # [03:36] <Zeros> yeah
  60. # [03:38] <Zeros> Well, hopefully those for and against versioning can come to a middle ground :)
  61. # [03:38] <Hixie> and XML having a version number has actually been a problem
  62. # [03:38] <Lachy> Zeros, the BOM isn't a version identifier, it's an encoding identifier, so I don't understand your point
  63. # [03:39] <Zeros> that's okay. I need dinner.
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  65. # [03:44] <Lachy> hmm. I don't agree with Hyatt's proposal to make the opt-in a temporary fix while HTML5 support is being added.
  66. # [03:45] <Lachy> IE could do that with the HTML4 DOCTYPEs, letting HTML5 trigger the latest standards mode by default, and make use ot time time it will take to transition from HTML4 to 5 to fix up their bugs
  67. # [03:46] <mjs> Lachy: I like hyatt's proposal better than what I think the IE team actually plans to do
  68. # [03:46] <mjs> btw I hope everyone can see now that same affiliation != same opinion
  69. # [03:46] <Lachy> it is slightly, but not quite as good as the off-list proposal I sent to Chris
  70. # [03:46] <Lachy> I'll be sending that to the list, once I get some feedback from him and sort out a few minor issues
  71. # [03:47] <Lachy> mjs, I never equated affiliation with opinion
  72. # [03:47] <Lachy> I often disagree with my employer, and I would expect that from everyone at times
  73. # [03:49] <mjs> Lachy: the object lesson isn't for you, it's mainly for people who think ever having breathed the same air as a WHATWG member results in joining the hive mind collective
  74. # [03:49] <Lachy> :-)
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  76. # [03:55] <zcorpan> why would adding new features break anything? e.g. if ms want to support <canvas> as it is used today they would have to support it in *quirks mode* even
  77. # [03:56] <mjs> zcorpan: it's always remotely possible
  78. # [03:57] <mjs> and MS seems more concerned about an IE-only intranet site that uses <canvas> for some private extension tag than about public sites that use <canvas> for real
  79. # [04:00] <zcorpan> yeah. i don't understand why
  80. # [04:02] <mjs> because breaking existing content apparently makes people more angry than not supporting new content as well, or making life easier for authors of new content
  81. # [04:02] <mjs> realistically, given IE market share, it does not matter if authors hate authoring for it, they still have to add the right workarounds
  82. # [04:06] <zcorpan> indeed. problem is they apply those workarounds to future IEs too even though there is a way to avoid doing so (CCs)
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  85. # [04:17] <mjs> wow, funky
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  98. # [07:35] <anne5> heh, Apple debates on versioning on public-html
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  100. # [07:37] <mjs> anne5: it's just the illusion of disagreement - part of the greater Google-led WHATWG conspiracy
  101. # [07:38] <anne5> you mean Google-Apple :p
  102. # [07:39] <mjs> Apple gets to share top billing now?
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  106. # [08:54] <anne5> I think having a version= attribute as opposed to a version in the DOCTYPE is a great idea as it will just be ignored.
  107. # [08:54] <anne5> Unless it's mandated for conformance maybe, but that seems silly...
  108. # [08:58] <Lachy> HTML4 had a version attribute, it was never used in reality. There's no evidence to suggest that it will be used for HTMl5
  109. # [08:59] <mjs> I'm not a fan of the attribute either, but it is clearly better in always than the doctype approach
  110. # [09:00] <Lachy> I really don't see the point. No-one is going to use it either way and IE is going to force us to use their own opt-ins anyway
  111. # [09:00] <anne5> It's way better. As I explained, it will be ignored which means there's no versioning :)
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  113. # [09:04] <hsivonen> anne5: once we agree on making it an attribute, I'm going to argue for making it optional :-)
  114. # [09:04] <hsivonen> anne5: because we need to define what happens when it isn't provided anyway
  115. # [09:05] <anne5> which makes me wonder why we need it in the first place :)
  116. # [09:05] <anne5> IE needs opt-in, but versioning for HTML is not it, it seems
  117. # [09:06] <hsivonen> anne5: pure HTML versioning is silly
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  119. # [09:06] <hsivonen> anne5: the editor configuration case is legitimate
  120. # [09:06] <hsivonen> anne5: and the IE opt-in seems like something that will happen
  121. # [09:07] <anne5> the editor should just create documents against the latest version
  122. # [09:07] <hsivonen> anne5: or, more to the point, the IE versioning thing is something what MS wants to have available to them now. whether they still agree with their current position when it is time to ship is another matter
  123. # [09:08] <hsivonen> anne5: no, you may want to configure an editor to omit forms and scripting for example when writing for a prose CMS
  124. # [09:09] <anne5> version= wouldn't help with that
  125. # [09:09] <hsivonen> anne5: depends on how it is defined
  126. # [09:09] <anne5> that would just be a switch in the editor
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  160. # [14:18] <Lachy> I am really surprised and confused by Sam Ruby's latest post "Separation of versioning concerns"
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  164. # [14:40] <hsivonen> Lachy: anything in particular?
  165. # [14:47] <Lachy> hsivonen, the fact that he's suggesting the use of an HTTP header for a UA-specific opt-in
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  187. # [17:12] <bsSsS> Can tables be used for layout ?
  188. # [17:12] <anne5> yes
  189. # [17:13] <Philip`> Should tables be used for layout?
  190. # [17:13] <bsSsS> Should tables be used for layout ?
  191. # [17:13] <anne5> no
  192. # [17:13] <wilhelm> Hrmf. The versioning proposals are getting more and more complex.
  193. # [17:14] <anne5> yes
  194. # [17:14] <bsSsS> Then , should i use tables for layout ?
  195. # [17:15] <bsSsS> Or what should i use for layout ?
  196. # [17:15] <anne5> no, CSS
  197. # [17:16] <bsSsS> Ah , tables formatted with CSS ?
  198. # [17:16] <bsSsS> border:0; etc
  199. # [17:17] <Lachy> bsSsS, you should not use tables for layout at all. You should use tables for marking up tabular data.
  200. # [17:17] <Lachy> There are plenty of resources available to teach you how to create various common layouts using CSS
  201. # [17:17] <bsSsS> margin , padding etc ?
  202. # [17:18] <Lachy> bsSsS, yes, all that goes in the CSS
  203. # [17:18] <bsSsS> yes , ok i know and my opionion is the same as yours but when i look at the source code of a web page there is a table
  204. # [17:19] <bsSsS> at the most of the web pages
  205. # [17:19] <Lachy> You should use semantic markup where appropriate, with a few divs to markup the major sections of a site (assuming you're using HTML4 at this stage)
  206. # [17:19] <bsSsS> If i am using XHTML ?
  207. # [17:19] <Lachy> you shouldn't be using XHTML
  208. # [17:19] <Lachy> does your target audience include IE users?
  209. # [17:20] <Lachy> cause IE doesn't support XHTML
  210. # [17:20] <bsSsS> doesn't ?
  211. # [17:20] <bsSsS> but IE is one of the best browsers
  212. # [17:21] <anne5> using HTML4 or XHTML is irrelevant
  213. # [17:21] <Lachy> what? I hope that's sarcastic
  214. # [17:21] <anne5> same applies
  215. # [17:21] <Lachy> yes, they're both the same language, just different syntaxes
  216. # [17:21] <bsSsS> There are four good browsers ... IE , FF , opera and NN
  217. # [17:21] <bsSsS> for me
  218. # [17:22] <Lachy> NN?
  219. # [17:22] <bsSsS> netscape navigator
  220. # [17:22] <Lachy> I know, that's just FF and IE combined into one badly built UI
  221. # [17:22] <bsSsS> yes , i know
  222. # [17:22] <bsSsS> it is not very good
  223. # [17:23] * Lachy thought no-one used NN anymore
  224. # [17:23] <anne5> bsSsS, which question hasn't been answered yet?
  225. # [17:23] <bsSsS> are you male or female ?
  226. # [17:23] * Quits: h3h (bfults@66.75.149.197) (Quit: h3h)
  227. # [17:24] <anne5> see annevankesteren.nl/about
  228. # [17:24] <bsSsS> i am afraid
  229. # [17:24] <bsSsS> it may be a virus
  230. # [17:24] <Lachy> what the?
  231. # [17:25] <bsSsS> oh sorry
  232. # [17:25] <bsSsS> What is ATOM ?
  233. # [17:25] <Lachy> like RSS, but better
  234. # [17:26] <Lachy> it's a syndication format
  235. # [17:26] <bsSsS> No DOCTYPE in html 5 ?
  236. # [17:26] <Lachy> are you just here to ask inane questions?
  237. # [17:27] <Lachy> the HTML5 DOCTYPE is <!DOCTYPE html>
  238. # [17:27] <bsSsS> only ?
  239. # [17:27] <anne5> so far, yes
  240. # [17:28] <bsSsS> let it so small , it is better to remember
  241. # [17:28] <Lachy> as long as certain people don't get their way and introduce versioning into HTML, then yes
  242. # [17:28] <anne5> bsSsS, that's the plan
  243. # [17:28] <anne5> my plan anyway
  244. # [17:29] <bsSsS> but HTML5 will be introduced after 10 years
  245. # [17:29] <bsSsS> it is a long time
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  247. # [17:29] <Lachy> HTML5 will begin to be used long before the spec is finalised
  248. # [17:30] <anne5> someone should write down how we do specs nowadays
  249. # [17:31] <bsSsS> I found a web page which has the html5 elements
  250. # [17:31] <Lachy> anne5, I sort of explained explained it here http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/lachlan-hunt.cfm#six
  251. # [17:32] <bsSsS> by the way , can you tell me which elements have been made by microsoft ?
  252. # [17:32] <Lachy> what do you mean?
  253. # [17:33] <Lachy> the ones MS introduced as proprietary extensions, that have now been specced?
  254. # [17:33] <bsSsS> Are there any tags which were made by microsoft ?
  255. # [17:33] <bsSsS> and are only supported by IE
  256. # [17:34] <Lachy> yes, no
  257. # [17:34] <bsSsS> I only know <bgsound>
  258. # [17:34] <anne5> <xml>
  259. # [17:34] <anne5> is one, iirc
  260. # [17:34] <Lachy> <marquee>
  261. # [17:34] <anne5> which is only supported by IE
  262. # [17:34] <Lachy> <object> originally
  263. # [17:34] <Lachy> though, HTML4 specced it in an incompatible way
  264. # [17:37] <bsSsS> Would there be any other version of html after 5 ?
  265. # [17:37] <Lachy> There will be future specs
  266. # [17:37] <Lachy> there won't be a new version of HTML (hopefully), just incremental improvemetns
  267. # [17:38] <bsSsS> so html 5 is the last version of html
  268. # [17:38] <Lachy> HTML5 isn't even a new "version" of HTML, just a revision of it
  269. # [17:39] <Lachy> the number just referrs to the version of the spec, not the version of the language
  270. # [17:39] <bsSsS> however , XHTML was created to replace HTML ?
  271. # [17:40] <Lachy> that was the original, poorly conceived plan
  272. # [17:40] <bsSsS> and it was a failure ?
  273. # [17:40] <Lachy> HTML5 defines HTML and XHTML as the same language
  274. # [17:40] <anne5> it defines one language with two serializations, rather
  275. # [17:40] <Lachy> just different syntaxes with different parsing requirements, and a few other diffs for back compat
  276. # [17:41] <bsSsS> Thanks very much , I must go know . bye
  277. # [17:41] <Lachy> Hixie did a survey of over 3 billion pages, and only 0.0014% (I think) of those pages were XHTML. The rest were HTML
  278. # [17:41] <bsSsS> lol
  279. # [17:41] * Quits: bsSsS (xhtml@213.7.98.20) (Quit: bsSsS)
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  285. # [18:11] <anne5> heh, top sites are hardly coded well
  286. # [18:12] <anne5> mostly because they're doing complex stuff
  287. # [18:29] * Joins: loic (loic@90.29.241.79)
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  291. # [19:08] * anne5 just read http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/04/25.html
  292. # [19:08] * anne5 wonders if browsers will some day ask for users to switch registry settings when they try to open "old" HTML files
  293. # [19:24] * Joins: schepers (schepers@69.134.24.226)
  294. # [19:25] * claudio rattles
  295. # [19:25] <claudio> (and firmly stick with open "anything")
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  299. # [19:38] <DanC> ok, I sent an agenda (proposal)
  300. # [19:39] <DanC> I did attempt to answer hixie's questions, but actually, I'm not sure I want more people to attend. we have about 38 registered so far.
  301. # [20:03] <DanC> I do need to recruit a scribe.
  302. # [20:11] * Quits: anne5 (annevk@86.90.70.28) (Connection reset by peer)
  303. # [20:13] * Quits: Sander (svl@80.60.87.115) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  307. # [20:22] <Hixie> DanC: so i guess i'm still confused as to why the telecon is needed... the topics you raise in the agenda are just the topics we've been discussing for a month now, why is a group of 20 people on a phone call going to be able to make progress that a group of 40 on the mailing list has not?
  308. # [20:23] <Hixie> (or to put it another way, how will we determine if the meeting was a success?)
  309. # [20:25] <DanC> I don't claim that a telecon is needed. But I do expect it will help.
  310. # [20:26] <DanC> I expect it to be cost-effective.
  311. # [20:26] <DanC> i expect it will help build trust that facilitates work by email
  312. # [20:26] <DanC> and again, this is management, not engineering. it's impossible to determine, with certainty, whether the WG would have done better or worse without the meeting.
  313. # [20:28] <Hixie> sure, but we can figure out success criteria that can give us an idea of whether or not it was worth it
  314. # [20:29] <DanC> I gave an objective under each agendum.
  315. # [20:29] <DanC> for example, for the HTML5 proposal, if we have a question that is clear and that the chairs are willing to compel WG members to answer, then we've succeeded.
  316. # [20:30] <Hixie> ah ok, that seems clear enough
  317. # [20:30] <Hixie> cool
  318. # [20:30] <DanC> :)
  319. # [20:32] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.186.97) (Quit: Computer goes to sleep!)
  320. # [20:33] <DanC> I wonder how much of the CVS/domain logistics we need to clarify before putting the question.
  321. # [20:34] <DanC> I'd like to have some directory (even if it's mostly empty) that you and hyatt can commit to.
  322. # [20:34] <anne5> there's http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/
  323. # [20:35] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/
  324. # [20:35] <Hixie> already exists
  325. # [20:35] <Hixie> :-)
  326. # [20:35] <anne5> hah
  327. # [20:35] <DanC> well, that was easy. I assume we can figure out hyatt's access soon enough.
  328. # [20:35] <DanC> (and I'd rather use hg than cvs, but oh well.)
  329. # [20:36] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  330. # [20:36] * DanC realizes he owes boyer notice on forms stuff...
  331. # [20:39] <anne5> can't they just join this WG?
  332. # [20:40] <Hixie> btw it might make the survey results easier to understand in future if the Yes/No question's answers were Yes, Yes but only by IRC, and No
  333. # [20:40] <anne5> can somone explain canonical HTML to me?
  334. # [20:41] <anne5> and maybe No, can't, No, don't want to
  335. # [20:41] <DanC> yes, "but only by IRC" looks like a useful refinement.
  336. # [20:43] <DanC> I need to send something to clarify that I expect business-quality phone connections; people can try skype/tin-cans-and-string, but if they disrupt the call, I'll mute or even disconnect them. "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."
  337. # [20:43] * Hixie hopes his phone behaves
  338. # [20:43] * DanC too
  339. # [20:44] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@66.92.187.33)
  340. # [20:44] <anne5> business-quality?
  341. # [20:44] <DanC> actually, anybody on IRC can mute any party. so it's sorta democratic
  342. # [20:44] <anne5> oh well, can't attend anyway
  343. # [20:45] <DanC> bummer.
  344. # [20:45] <DanC> kingryan, did you check "yes I'll help the newbies?" I think I got 2 volunteers for that.
  345. # [20:46] <kingryan> DanC: I don't think so
  346. # [20:46] <kingryan> at least, that doesn't sound like something I'd volunteer for :D
  347. # [20:46] <DanC> one of your answers surprised me... looking it up...
  348. # [20:47] <kingryan> "orientation: documenting group norms, helping people learn them" ?
  349. # [20:48] <DanC> yes, that one.
  350. # [20:49] * DanC gets a proxy error trying to look it up
  351. # [20:49] <kingryan> well, I feel like I have some experience with cat herding an open community around standards
  352. # [20:50] <DanC> yeah... so... how do we use that in this group...
  353. # [20:50] <anne5> deletion and insertion as done by Joel Spolsky: "<strike>England</strike> <u>the UK</u>"
  354. # [20:50] <DanC> where, anne5 ?
  355. # [20:50] <anne5> maybe <strike> and <s> should just be the semantic equivalent, obsolete variants of <del>...
  356. # [20:51] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  357. # [20:51] <anne5> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/04/24.html
  358. # [20:51] <DanC> oh.
  359. # [20:51] * DanC doesn't get the obsession with phrase level elements; regards them all as accidents of history; has little hope of influencing future behaviour
  360. # [20:52] <DanC> if I apologized really loudly for ever adding them to HTML, do you think it would matter? ;-)
  361. # [20:52] <anne5> <a> is a phrase level element
  362. # [20:52] <anne5> DanC, heh
  363. # [20:52] <DanC> I didn't mean a.
  364. # [20:52] <DanC> I sorta stick to <b>, <em>, and <tt>. I know that short names are easier to type.
  365. # [20:53] <DanC> and I count 3 buttons on most editing user interfaces.
  366. # [20:53] <anne5> you don't use <code>?
  367. # [20:53] <anne5> (as opposed to <tt>)
  368. # [20:53] * Joins: Deeder (Deeder@86.192.27.62)
  369. # [20:53] <DanC> I sometimes use <code>. but only when I'm feeling like a Real Technical Writer or somethign.
  370. # [20:55] <DanC> I think the number of people who know the difference between <code> and <tt> is... well... we're all this channel, I bet. ;-)
  371. # [20:55] <anne5> hehe
  372. # [20:56] <anne5> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/results is funny
  373. # [20:56] <anne5> people are promoting the fact that they write pages that are in the top 10 of google
  374. # [20:57] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  375. # [20:58] <DanC> which is that, anne5 ? if somebody has the ability to change top web pages, that's an asset to the WG.
  376. # [20:58] <kingryan> anne5: I only see david dailey mentioning that. who else?
  377. # [20:59] <anne5> s/people are/someone is/
  378. # [20:59] <kingryan> :D
  379. # [20:59] * Quits: Deeder (Deeder@86.192.27.62) (Client exited)
  380. # [21:00] <kingryan> DanC: it's not hard to be in the top 10 for *something* (see http://www.google.com/search?q=ryan+king)
  381. # [21:00] * anne5 wonders if it would help his position if he mentioned he's the number 3 result for "html5"
  382. # [21:00] <DanC> oh. top 10 for something. yawn.
  383. # [21:00] <anne5> right
  384. # [21:00] <kingryan> anne5: we've got #5 for 'html5' :D
  385. # [21:01] <Philip`> Hooray, I'm on the first page for "Web Applications 1.0", if you've set it to show enough results per page
  386. # [21:01] <anne5> all of course because the Wikipedia people haven't catched up yet
  387. # [21:01] <anne5> Philip`, :p
  388. # [21:01] <Philip`> but that's only because I copied the whole spec onto my site
  389. # [21:02] <Philip`> (Changed it to a redirect now, so people don't accidentally find my old copy)
  390. # [21:02] <anne5> html5.org is number 5 for that search
  391. # [21:09] <DanC> 14 volunteers for "tutorial development, quick reference, course materials, ...". hmm... how to organize that work...
  392. # [21:10] <anne5> Let people just write and put it up somewhere for review
  393. # [21:11] <anne5> The more tutorials written from different perspectives the better
  394. # [21:11] <anne5> imo
  395. # [21:11] <DanC> I have not only let people put stuff up, I have encouraged them to do so and provide pointers. I haven't seen any interesting results from that.
  396. # [21:12] <DanC> but perhaps now that the 14 are known to each other, the dynamic might change.
  397. # [21:13] <DanC> I'd even be happy to give them their own mailing list, or maybe they like talking by phone, or whatever.
  398. # [21:29] * Quits: AGraf (Ashe@213.47.199.86) (Connection reset by peer)
  399. # [21:29] * DanC confirms that he has access to http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/
  400. # [21:29] * Joins: mw22_ (chatzilla@84.41.169.151)
  401. # [21:29] <DanC> or rather... to http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/
  402. # [21:29] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
  403. # [21:29] <anne5> I think it's not directory based
  404. # [21:29] <anne5> s/think/believe/
  405. # [21:29] <DanC> I'm glad hyatt gave his take on versioning, but he didn't really say much about specific designs.
  406. # [21:30] <anne5> I think he favored a HTML4 like one without referencing a DTD
  407. # [21:30] * Quits: mw22 (chatzilla@84.41.169.151) (Ping timeout)
  408. # [21:30] <anne5> but then not everyone from Apple shared his viewpoint :)
  409. # [21:30] <DanC> :)
  410. # [21:30] * mw22_ is now known as mw22
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  423. # [21:44] <DanC> these WBS page designs really don't scale well to the quantity of data that we're putting into them
  424. # [21:44] <DanC> I hate PHP, but I'm tempted to give it a go
  425. # [21:44] <DanC> these survey results are really painful to read. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/results
  426. # [21:46] * Joins: Ashe (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
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  430. # [21:52] <Philip`> DanC: At least Opera can get rid of the horizontal scrollbars, which helps a lot (though then the text is wrapped to two words per line)
  431. # [21:53] <anne5> we're not free enough for DanC though
  432. # [21:59] * Joins: Carol_King (carol@70.242.209.173)
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  434. # [22:00] * Parts: Carol_King (carol@70.242.209.173)
  435. # [22:00] <DanC> how do I get from whatwg.org to the chunked html5 spec? I can only find the peg-your-cpu version
  436. # [22:01] <DanC> at least it has a link...
  437. # [22:01] <DanC> wild... the references section consists only of "This section will be written in a future draft."
  438. # [22:02] <anne5> the multipage version is not promoted too much as the URIs are not stable
  439. # [22:02] <DanC> real numbers? why is there a section on real numbers? oh... floating point. (calling them "real" is goofy)
  440. # [22:04] <anne5> re: references, keeping up with reference updates is annoying
  441. # [22:05] <Philip`> http://whatwg.org/html5/ is easy to remember and goes to the multipage one, which is handy
  442. # [22:05] <anne5> especially with references to drafts that are not done or that get revised now and then
  443. # [22:05] <anne5> oh, so the multipage version is promoted...
  444. # [22:05] <anne5> oh well
  445. # [22:05] <Philip`> (At least I hope it's easy to remember - I might have got it wrong...)
  446. # [22:05] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
  447. # [22:05] <DanC> I'm curious... what does the html5 spec do about stuff that's specified elsewhere? I'm looking for "what goes in an href"
  448. # [22:05] <Philip`> (Oh, I was lucky, that was right)
  449. # [22:05] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: polin8)
  450. # [22:05] <DanC> "When a user follows a hyperlink, the user agent must navigate a browsing context to the URI of the hyperlink." -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-links.html#following0
  451. # [22:05] <DanC> no citation for URI. nor explanation/definition, as far as I can tell
  452. # [22:06] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
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  454. # [22:06] <anne5> the spec has several <!-- XXX ref --> comments in the source
  455. # [22:07] <anne5> URI is defined in the terminology section though, iirc
  456. # [22:07] <Philip`> anne5: The Specs link on the front page still goes to the single-page version - I guess the /html5/ one may have beenn to avoid killing unsuspecting Twitter viewers who follow the link
  457. # [22:07] <Philip`> s/nn/n/
  458. # Session Close: Thu Apr 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)