/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 29 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  30. # [07:28] * Lachy adds an example for Support Existing Content
  31. # [07:46] <mjs> Lachy: sweet
  32. # [08:22] <heycam> mjs, missing a line from your last email?
  33. # [08:24] <mjs> heycam: let me look
  34. # [08:24] <mjs> I can't believe you actually read all the noise I generate :-)
  35. # [08:26] <heycam> ah well it's a lazy sunday afternoon here :)
  36. # [08:30] <Zeros> Can the lack of chatter about the Compatibility design principal be taken to mean people are done arguing it?
  37. # [08:31] <Lachy> I hope so
  38. # [08:31] <Lachy> but probably not
  39. # [08:35] <mjs> I have trouble with that, because I really can't understand an abstract desire to break compatibility, independent of a specific list of changes and benefits
  40. # [08:40] <Lachy> I don't understand David's objection to Don't Reinvent the Wheel
  41. # [08:40] <Lachy> that's such a common design principle used everywhere, I didn't expect anyone to object to it
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  44. # [08:47] <mjs> he is weird
  45. # [08:47] * Quits: sbuluf (pzioji@200.49.140.20) (Ping timeout)
  46. # [08:48] <mjs> I find his latest email unreadable
  47. # [08:48] <Lachy> I thought his demonstration of abusing a table to draw an image, as evidence that canvas reinvented the wheel, was quite amusing
  48. # [08:49] * Joins: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.151.156)
  49. # [08:49] <Zeros> well... Hixie did have an animated person done with nothing but HTML elements if I remember right
  50. # [08:50] <mjs> I'd like to see him implement this with table abuse: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml
  51. # [08:50] <mjs> Zeros: that's meant to be a stress test, not an example of a useful technique
  52. # [08:50] <Zeros> mjs, I know, I was being sarcastic
  53. # [08:51] <Zeros> mjs, Why does the footer drop off the bottom of the game box on that page?
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  55. # [08:51] <mjs> Zeros: no idea
  56. # [08:52] <Zeros> ah, I'll look for a ticket then
  57. # [08:53] <Lachy> that canvas demo is awesome
  58. # [08:54] <Lachy> but my mac is too slow to run it well,though my PC was fast enough to run it at the large size
  59. # [08:54] <Zeros> How old is your mac?
  60. # [08:55] <Lachy> got it beginning of 2006
  61. # [08:55] <Zeros> It can't possibly be too slow to run that
  62. # [08:55] <Lachy> it's a Mac mini, before Intel CPUs came out
  63. # [08:55] <Lachy> ... in macs
  64. # [08:56] <Lachy> it runs it, it's just a bit jumpy
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  66. # [08:57] <Zeros> Aside from the rounding bug where you can mess up the rendering in Safari and the layout issues it runs pretty well for me
  67. # [08:57] <Zeros> 14-20fps
  68. # [08:57] <Zeros> ugh, when it doesn't crash :/
  69. # [08:58] <mjs> I got 39 FPS for a while at the small site
  70. # [08:58] <mjs> but it sems buggy
  71. # [08:58] <mjs> *seems
  72. # [08:58] <Lachy> it wouldn't work in Safari for me
  73. # [08:58] <mjs> dunno if it is a Safari problem or a site problem
  74. # [08:59] <Lachy> safari complained about me not having an SVG plugin when I tried to load it
  75. # [08:59] <Lachy> I thought it used canvas, not SVG
  76. # [08:59] <Zeros> I can get 50fps if I jump outside the level with the rounding bug
  77. # [09:00] <Zeros> Do a little spin as you walk over the step in the middle of the room or turn while you go through the door
  78. # [09:01] <mjs> Lachy: same -- weird
  79. # [09:02] <Lachy> Zeros, I tried, but nothing happened
  80. # [09:02] <mjs> Lachy: it uses both canvas and SVG
  81. # [09:02] <mjs> Lachy: svg just does the random decorative graphics
  82. # [09:02] <mjs> I think this page might also be sent with an XML mime type too
  83. # [09:03] <Lachy> yes, it is
  84. # [09:03] <Lachy> is XML a problem for Safari?
  85. # [09:03] <Zeros> Lachy, try doing a 360 spin in the outside area
  86. # [09:04] <mjs> Lachy: no, it's just an odd confluence of technologies
  87. # [09:05] <Lachy> I discovered yesterday that Safari doesn't default to UTF-8 for XML, which is a bug (though I expect it's a known bug)
  88. # [09:06] <Zeros> Lachy, you can cause it by walking from the starting position until you're right on the step out of the blue area and doing a 360 too
  89. # [09:06] <Lachy> Zeros, do you mean in the area with the Firefox and Opera logos on the wall?
  90. # [09:06] <Zeros> Lachy, yes
  91. # [09:07] <Lachy> in which browser?
  92. # [09:07] <Lachy> any?
  93. # [09:07] <Zeros> Webkit
  94. # [09:07] <Zeros> heh. 3 crashes on the page so far.
  95. # [09:07] <mjs> how recent a build?
  96. # [09:08] <Zeros> most recent from nightly.webkit.org
  97. # [09:08] <Lachy> It doesn't work in Safari 2.0.4
  98. # [09:08] <mjs> lame that they have Firefox and Opera logos but not a Safari or Apple logo in a canvas demo
  99. # [09:08] <Lachy> it's probably because it only works in FF and O
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  101. # [09:09] * Lachy goes to download a nightly webkit
  102. # [09:09] <mjs> well, that's also kind of lame - probably wouldn't have been too hard to make it work in stock Safari
  103. # [09:09] <Zeros_> mjs, http://services.ath.cx/logs/1.log http://services.ath.cx/logs/2.log http://services.ath.cx/logs/3.log
  104. # [09:09] <Zeros_> I'm trying to reproduce them
  105. # [09:10] <mjs> Zeros_: it smells of memory trashing
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  109. # [09:13] <Zeros_> hmm
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  111. # [09:21] <Zeros_> Yeah, that was a 4th one. Different cause again.
  112. # [09:22] <Lachy> it runs faster in WebKit than it does in FF on my mac, but it also crashed
  113. # [09:24] <mjs> I would guess something is corrupting the malloc arena, probably by overwriting freed memory
  114. # [09:26] <Zeros_> Lachy, see what I mean with the rendering getting corrupted if you spin around?
  115. # [09:28] <Zeros_> Resizing the canvas with the tiny->ultra links corrects it most of the time
  116. # [09:30] * Zeros_ is now known as Zeros
  117. # [09:37] <Lachy> yes, Zeros, I got the rendering bug too, and then it crashed soon afterwards
  118. # [09:41] * mjs would love a bug report if y'all have repro steps
  119. # [09:41] <mjs> also the layout bug
  120. # [09:46] <Zeros> alright, I'll reduce it and add one tomorrow.
  121. # [09:48] <mjs> even w/o a reduction a bug report would be great, if you have steps to reproduce it
  122. # [09:48] <Zeros> alright
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  130. # [10:59] <Zeros> mjs, there you go, 3 new ones :)
  131. # [11:01] <mjs> Zeros: 3 bug reports?
  132. # [11:03] <mjs> what are the bug #s?
  133. # [11:04] <Zeros> 13537,13538,13539
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  135. # [11:09] <Zeros> Well I'm out, when I get some free time I'll look into reducing that layout issue.
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  138. # [12:16] <anne> "To continue your analogy, a light bulb is better than a torch, unless your problem was actually to set things on fire, not to provide light. In which case it is over-engineered and unhelpful."
  139. # [12:16] <anne> heh
  140. # [12:17] <anne> public-html is great
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  142. # [12:19] <mjs> anne: I felt a little silly typing some of the analogies
  143. # [12:20] <anne> Regarding the PDF forms, you mostly need to print them
  144. # [12:21] <anne> And they seem to address the same things as HTML except that you have better layout control and better control over what gets printed
  145. # [12:25] <mjs> PDF even has JavaScript, right?
  146. # [12:26] <anne> There's some scripting involved, yes
  147. # [12:26] <anne> I don't recall the language
  148. # [12:26] <anne> Now Adobe and Macromedia merged it might very well be JavaScript, I suppose
  149. # [12:27] <anne> yeah, it's JavaScript (per Google)
  150. # [12:31] <anne> this top posting from John sucks
  151. # [12:32] <mjs> his email also comes out in a weird tiny font for me
  152. # [12:34] <anne> fortunately he gives an alternate text plan version
  153. # [12:35] <anne> it's unfortunate he's completely ignoring your arguments
  154. # [12:35] <anne> although I suppose that makes your point stronger
  155. # [12:47] <hyatt> you guys are missing the point
  156. # [12:47] <hyatt> complete this analogy
  157. # [12:48] <hyatt> bah nvm
  158. # [12:48] <hyatt> too tired to think of something clever
  159. # [12:50] <anne> heh
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  167. # [14:30] <Philip`> mjs: The lack of Safari logo is because I couldn't test it in Safari, and I didn't expect it'd actually work without hitting bugs in my code :-)
  168. # [14:33] * Philip` wonders if there's a good image somewhere that he could use
  169. # [14:54] * Lachy wonders how you could set fire to anything with a torch?
  170. # [14:54] <Lachy> unless your concept of a torch is different from mine
  171. # [14:56] <Philip`> That'd probably be like the Olympic Torch, rather than a flashlight
  172. # [14:57] <Lachy> yeah, flashlights are called torches here
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  174. # [15:00] <Philip`> They are here too, and I guess they're more common than the flame-on-a-stick variety nowadays, though not as much fun
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  177. # [15:08] <PissFix> Hello , can i ask something ?
  178. # [15:09] <PissFix> I have a problem with which is URL and which is not
  179. # [15:10] <Zoffix> omg
  180. # [15:10] <PissFix> Oh Zoffix you are in here too
  181. # [15:10] <Zoffix> PissFix, you are totally asking in the wrong place, and I already gave you an answer in the appropriate channel
  182. # [15:10] <PissFix> but you told me that http://www.google.com is Linux
  183. # [15:10] <Zoffix> PissFix, read my further comments.
  184. # [15:11] <PissFix> www = Li google = N .com = UX
  185. # [15:11] <Zoffix> PissFix, this channel is for standards developers, not for someone who doesn't know how to google
  186. # [15:11] <Lachy> what the?
  187. # [15:11] <PissFix> I have the logs
  188. # [15:11] <PissFix> I can show you if you want
  189. # [15:11] <Zoffix> lol
  190. # [15:12] <Zoffix> PissFix, so what? I have it too: http://paste.css-standards.org/10990 now what?
  191. # [15:13] <PissFix> When i join this server you told me the answer
  192. # [15:13] <PissFix> are you afraid?
  193. # [15:13] <Zoffix> PissFix, well, if you would to bother and check the time stamps I gave you an answer BEFORE you've joined. Why would I be afraid of
  194. # [15:14] <Zoffix> What even :/
  195. # [15:14] <Zoffix> No further comments.
  196. # [15:14] <PissFix> Ok you asked you to be serious and you were kidding me
  197. # [15:14] <PissFix> Ok i asked you to be serious and you were kidding me
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  199. # [15:18] <PissFix> because Zoffix doesn't know can you help me ?
  200. # [15:18] <Lachy> Zoffix, care to explain that google = LINUX thing?
  201. # [15:19] <Zoffix> Lachy, just a prank on someone asking where he could execute JS code injection.
  202. # [15:19] <Zoffix> in #css channel
  203. # [15:19] <PissFix> No , i asked you what is a Url
  204. # [15:20] <PissFix> I found what is js injection
  205. # [15:20] <Lachy> ok, but I still don't get it. oh well.
  206. # [15:20] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml - now with added Safari promotion
  207. # [15:20] <Lachy> a URL is a Uniform Resource Locator
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  209. # [15:20] <PissFix> like http://www.google.com ?
  210. # [15:20] <Zoffix> PissFix, well, why don't you find what a URL is the same way you found what JS injection is.
  211. # [15:20] <Philip`> (It'd be nice if there was a web-accessible drawWindow function, so I could convert Google ads to 3D...)
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  214. # [15:30] <PissFix> bye
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  236. # [20:10] <Bob_le_Pointu> Using divs inside lists...
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  240. # [20:18] <gavin_> hmm, Lachy's votes appear in the results, but he's still listed in the "non-responders" list
  241. # [20:30] <Dashiva> The non-responders list is broken like something really broken
  242. # [20:32] <Philip`> 'Broken like WEP', perhaps?
  243. # [20:33] <Dashiva> I figure people can insert their favorite pet example
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  247. # [21:55] * Dashiva ponders the seemingly infinite faith in humanity displayed in the semantics debate
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  250. # [22:19] <hsivonen> I'm in awe about the general lack of understanding of technology network effects on part of some people who object to HTML5
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  254. # [22:38] <gsnedders> why do we need HTML5? XHTML2 is the future!
  255. # [22:38] <gsnedders> I mean, it'll succeed!
  256. # [22:38] <gsnedders> we don't need UAs backing it, that's what XSLT is for!
  257. # [22:39] <Bob_le_Pointu> If only it could be that.
  258. # [22:39] <gsnedders> and with that sarcasm, g'nite.
  259. # [22:40] <Bob_le_Pointu> gn8
  260. # [22:40] <Dashiva> Some guy on dailywtf talked about writing a DBMS in XSLT
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  269. # [23:28] <Dashiva> "5) Modify the tools that they use (for the most part), let the tool do a lot of the heavy/boring/non-fun work for them, present the choices to the users in clear and usable ways"
  270. # [23:28] <Dashiva> While we're at it, can I have a pony?
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  275. # [23:50] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161) (Client exited)
  276. # [23:50] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  277. # Session Close: Mon Apr 30 00:00:00 2007

The end :)