/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-04-30 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Apr 30 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
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# [00:37] <mjs> Philip`: oh, I didn't know you made that thing, cool
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# [02:39] <karl> http://www.nedbatchelder.com/blog/20070429T080859.html
# [02:39] <karl> Strictness and correctness
# [02:40] <karl> "Getting upset now about the draconian error handling of XML seems kind of quaint.
# [02:40] <karl> At this point, I think it is clear that XML's strictness about well-formedness is very easy to satisfy. It is easy to write automatic producers of XML that do it correctly, and hand-edited XML is also easy to fix when it has missing angle brackets or mismatched tags."
# [02:41] <zcorpan> yet many feeds are not well-formed
# [02:41] <zcorpan> or are even served with an xml mime type...
# [02:41] <karl> zcorpan: read the blog post ;)
# [02:46] <zcorpan> i never really understood why so many want pages that are interpretable as html and xml at the same time
# [02:47] <zcorpan> though i've recently found that it makes things a bit simpler when crafting test cases by hand, and you want to test both html and xhtml
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# [02:52] <karl> zcorpan: because in the Web ecosystem, considering only HTML authoring and the browser, is missing an important player, the Web server.
# [02:53] <karl> and Unfortunately the web servers are not very accessible to authors and authoring tools
# [02:54] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/chips/
# [02:54] <karl> Common HTTP Implementation Problems
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# [03:28] * zcorpan updated http://simon.html5.org/temp/author-view-of-html5.css
# [03:28] <zcorpan> bedtime
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# [07:47] <sbuluf> hello, david. thanks once more for your answers a few days back in #webkit
# [07:49] <hyatt> me?
# [07:50] <hyatt> if so, you're welcome (not sure what i answered) :)
# [07:50] <sbuluf> yep, i asked a few questions about browsers there a few days back
# [07:50] <hyatt> ah
# [07:51] <sbuluf> (i asked how much code/complexity could be eliminated from browsers if we could use only sme xml language, instead of html)
# [07:51] <sbuluf> s/sme/one/
# [07:52] <hyatt> ah i remember now yeah
# [07:52] <sbuluf> :)
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# [09:25] <anne> "I worry that the pace of revision has gotten a bit frenzied. I see the number of threads that some of you are involved in and I start worrying about the well-being of the people involved."
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# [09:51] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Apr/0217.html
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# [10:11] <mjs> I wonder why Bjoern didn't join the HTMLWG
# [10:11] <karl> why should he?
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# [10:12] <mjs> well, he's commenting on the public list
# [10:12] <karl> he has the right to do it :)
# [10:15] <mjs> and a long track record of involvement with standards
# [10:15] <karl> yes and a very useful one
# [10:15] <mjs> and this group has low access threshold
# [10:15] <mjs> so I wondered why he hadn't joined
# [10:15] <karl> maybe he thinks that he's more useful in some other areas or at specific time.
# [10:16] <karl> he's already participating.
# [10:16] <karl> to W3C
# [10:16] <karl> and there's only 24h in a day
# [10:17] <mjs> I don't think he has an obligation to join
# [10:17] <karl> for example since I'm the (interim) staff contact of this group. I had no time to do review of other groups materials. :/
# [10:17] <mjs> but it seemed like somehthng that would be in his interests
# [10:18] <karl> I'm pretty sure he will do when/if he feels it is necessary
# [10:18] <mjs> I've always been curious what various W3C staff members (and WG participants in general) use as their main browser
# [10:19] <karl> hehe
# [10:19] <karl> maciej do not forget I'm vendor neutral :p
# [10:20] <karl> but I think it goes this way
# [10:22] <karl> ViolaWWW -> Mosaic, Arena -> Netscape, AOLPress, Cyberdog -> Mozilla -> IE for Mac -> Safari -> Camino.
# [10:22] <anne> Bjoern is already on the WHATWG list
# [10:22] <karl> it's my historical sequence I guess
# [10:23] <karl> with lynx all along for specific needs.
# [10:25] <mjs> so currently you are a Camino users?
# [10:25] <mjs> What did you like better about it compared to Safari?
# [10:25] <karl> many of me, yes ;)
# [10:26] <mjs> s/users/user/
# [10:27] <karl> quick, cookies control a lot better, pop up blocking cool too. TABs saving a MUST when you crash. Introduced by Opera long time ago before others.
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# [10:28] <karl> I can also hack easily the search box on the right. Maybe it is possible now on safari. do not know
# [10:30] <karl> there is one thing missing in Camino. The hook to edit the form in TextMate
# [10:31] <karl> though I really that should be an option of every browsers
# [10:31] <karl> edit this form in the text editor of your choice. a kind of setenv EDITOR for the browser.
# [10:32] <hyatt> does camino use the info bar style of popup blocking
# [10:32] <hyatt> like ie and firefox
# [10:32] <karl> for example I edit my long mail in TextMate with Command+Ctrl+E
# [10:33] <karl> allow once, allow never, allow always
# [10:33] <karl> at the top of the canvas
# [10:33] <hyatt> i actually prefer the silent popup blocking of safari
# [10:33] <hyatt> like when i go to cnn.com in firefox
# [10:33] <hyatt> the info bar just comes up over and over
# [10:33] <hyatt> it's like i'm forced to take action
# [10:33] <hyatt> when all iwanted to do was ignore the popup
# [10:33] <hyatt> when the 99% case is that you are happy the popup was blocked
# [10:34] <hyatt> being actively and vocally nagged about it is terrible UI imo
# [10:34] <karl> :) I prefer choice as it is necessary to let the pop up go sometimes. Same for cookies. I guess it depends on the personal preferences
# [10:34] <hyatt> well i do think some indication that a popup was blocked is nice
# [10:34] <hyatt> i just think the info bar is way too noisy a way to go about it
# [10:34] <karl> you are not forced to click on it btw
# [10:35] <hyatt> no but it's jarring
# [10:35] <hyatt> as you go from page to page on cnn.com it goes away
# [10:35] <hyatt> and then pops back in on the next page
# [10:35] <hyatt> so your whole content area is shuddering while you browse
# [10:35] <hyatt> some of that is just the poor implementation in firefox though
# [10:35] <karl> hmm what would you suggest for the UI?
# [10:36] <hyatt> something a little more subtle
# [10:36] <hyatt> status bar icon
# [10:36] <hyatt> or if i was on windows maybe a system tray notification
# [10:36] <hyatt> on mac i might like a growl
# [10:36] <karl> yep that could in the bar at the bottom a kind of three icons thing
# [10:36] <karl> yes good suggestion
# [10:36] <hyatt> my original implementation in firefox was a status bar icon
# [10:36] <anne> Opera has a little "popup" as indication in the bottom right corner
# [10:37] <hyatt> ben goodger added the info bar later
# [10:37] <hyatt> which IMO was just shamelessly ripping of IE
# [10:37] <hyatt> off IE
# [10:37] <karl> hehe
# [10:37] <hyatt> anyway i hate UI that gets in your face when you're trying to do something else
# [10:38] <hyatt> like vista nagging me 9 times just to install a program today
# [10:38] <hyatt> the info bar falls in that category
# [10:38] <hyatt> it is disruptive enough to actually interfere with browsing
# [10:38] <hyatt> my opinion. :)
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# [10:39] <hyatt> part of why we haven't done anything more in safari is trying to figure out what to even do
# [10:39] <hyatt> since the info bar is something we don't like
# [10:39] <hyatt> and safari doesn't show the status bar by default so you couldn't put something there
# [10:40] <hyatt> maybe something up in the title bar next to the lock icon i dunno
# [10:40] <hyatt> that would be pretty subtle though
# [10:40] <jgraham> karl: re: html5lib; it should be pretty stable with the (ironic) exception of in sites that use HTML5 markup (<section>, <datagrid>, etc.) since the behaviour for those isn't yet specified
# [10:41] <jgraham> so we raise NotImplementedError instead :(
# [10:41] <karl> hyatt: something to do for safari, that would be a gem
# [10:41] <karl> full screen mode
# [10:41] <karl> like apple preview
# [10:41] <hyatt> yeah i would love that
# [10:41] * hyatt is a big fan of full screen mode
# [10:42] <karl> the only way to do that now is with a paid plug-in: Saft. At least the last time I have checked
# [10:43] <karl> I would like also a kind of http archive mode in a dated space but that's a bit geeky
# [10:43] <karl> See http://impressive.net/people/gerald/1999/01/http-archive/
# [10:44] <jgraham> There are a couple of demo tools at http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/html5/ but they aren't really ready, hence I'm not replying on-list
# [10:45] <karl> ah many thanks jgraham
# [10:45] <hyatt> i just wish gecko would fix all its mac issues
# [10:45] <hyatt> my issues with ffx/camino are all about the engine bugs and problems it has on the mac
# [10:46] <karl> hyatt which kind of issues?
# [10:46] <hyatt> the ugly form controls
# [10:46] <hyatt> (ffx)
# [10:46] <hyatt> poor text rendering (both)
# [10:46] <hyatt> tons of bugs with the native scrollbars
# [10:46] <hyatt> not stacking right
# [10:46] <hyatt> fixed positioning is pathologically slow on mac
# [10:47] <hyatt> in both ffx and camino
# [10:47] <hyatt> plugin issues
# [10:47] <karl> ah interesting I had not these feelings I should try some sites with these issues
# [10:47] <karl> I know that MySpace is not usable
# [10:47] <hyatt> basically none of these issues exist on the windows ffx
# [10:47] <hyatt> myspace not being usable is kind of a mac issue
# [10:47] <karl> but I blame it on myspace more than the browser
# [10:48] <hyatt> you're talking about how it just hangs right
# [10:48] <karl> yep
# [10:48] <hyatt> yeah someone filed a bug on us about that
# [10:48] <hyatt> it's some kind of mac networking thing
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# [10:49] <hyatt> karl: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11339
# [10:49] <hyatt> karl: in case you are curious
# [10:51] <karl> ah indeed
# [10:53] <hyatt> the part that confused mei s why putting the js into the body caused it to timeout immediately
# [10:53] <hyatt> why it only hangs in the head is perplexing
# [10:53] <karl> I would love that Camino or Safari or Firefox or Opera becomes an editor too ala Amaya
# [10:53] <karl> http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
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# [11:26] <karl> hmmm maybe interesting for anne's stats. Group statistics: 383 group participants, over 1700 messages on public-html@w3.org this month.
# [11:26] <karl> I see around 150 individuals posters on the list
# [11:27] <karl> but maybe 10 intense contributors
# [11:27] <karl> I should modify my little script to count real contributors
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# [11:36] <Lachy> karl, how will you distinguish real contributors from the others?
# [11:36] <karl> s/real/intense/
# [11:37] <karl> a more exact way of counting would be to use the method aaron swartz used for wikipedia. But I haven't enough time for developing such a script
# [11:37] <karl> http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia
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# [11:38] <karl> it is a kind of good example of "Manufacturing Consent".
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# [13:24] <gsnedders> I'm almost surprised that nobody has voted no yet, not knowing that it's a formal objection
# [13:25] <Lachy> there are people who would formally object, but they're currently hanging out on www-html complaining and refusing to participate :-)
# [13:26] <gsnedders> like Tina?
# [13:26] <Lachy> yes
# [13:27] <Lachy> and surprisingly Jukka Korpela
# [13:27] <gsnedders> (I've only been skimming over www-html, I don't read it that closely)
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# [13:35] <mjs> who is Jukka Korpela?
# [13:35] <mjs> is the survey really set up such that a vote of no is a Formal Objection/
# [13:35] <mjs> ?
# [13:37] <Lachy> mjs, yes, a no vote is a formal objection, as stated in the survey: "A "no" vote in this survey is a formal objection. An individual who registers a Formal Objection should cite technical arguments ..."
# [13:38] <mjs> wow, so this is more than a straw poll then
# [13:39] <mjs> that is an amazing lack of no votes there
# [13:39] <Lachy> Jukka Korpela is relatively well known amongst web developers. He has a lot of useful articles about semantics, HTML, etc. http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
# [13:39] <Lachy> he hangs out on www-html, and various groups on Usenet
# [13:40] <mjs> what is his complaint?
# [13:41] <Lachy> he seems to have a problem with HTML5 defining error handling. He thinks it's ok for different browsers to handle errors differntly
# [13:41] * gsnedders realises having his status set as away ("sleepin") isn't all that useful when he's been up for 4 hours
# [13:41] <Lachy> He also thinks specs like HTML4 are relevant, despite having no implementations and being impossible to implement
# [13:42] <mjs> Lachy: you stil haven't voted
# [13:42] <Lachy> yes I have
# [13:42] <Lachy> I don't know why I'm still listed in the non-responders list
# [13:42] <mjs> really? it lists you on the non-responders list
# [13:42] <Lachy> see my vote in the tabes above
# [13:42] <mjs> you're right though, I see your votes too
# [13:43] <Lachy> hmm. heycam hasn't voted yet, though
# [13:43] <Dashiva> "If you define error handling, you're really defining features"
# [13:43] <mjs> I'm curious about the votes of Vectoreal, Disruptive Innovations, Opera, Murray Maloney, Microsoft, IBM and Mark Birbeck
# [13:44] <mjs> (if those people/organizations even choose to vote)
# [13:45] <Lachy> Daniel Glazman, Opera and MS will vote yes.
# [13:45] <Lachy> not sure about IBMs position
# [13:46] <mjs> Someone from Opera voted but then removed his vote
# [13:46] <Lachy> Mark Birbeck will probably object on the grounds of it not being architecturally consistent with XForms, and Murray will come up with some other absurd objection
# [13:46] <mjs> perhaps to let the "official" rep do it
# [13:46] <mjs> Mark Birbeck seems to not care if xforms-like features are added, as long as browsers implement xforms
# [13:47] <Lachy> ha!
# [13:47] <Lachy> ah, I didn't realise John Boyer worked for IBM.
# [13:48] <wilhelm> mjs: Yes, that was the reason.
# [13:49] <Lachy> so if/when I get a job at Opera soon, I'm going to lose my ability to vote individually :-(
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# [14:03] <hasather> Lachy: relly? You talked to them?
# [14:03] <hasather> really
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# [14:04] <heycam> i wonder if any people are in favour of taking Web Apps 1.0 at the baseline but not Web Forms 2.0
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# [14:08] <heycam> MikeSmith, being part of the "local organizing committee", do you know anything about the ' "How to submit" information will be updated shortly ' message on http://www.svgopen.org/2007/call_en.shtml?
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# [14:13] <heycam> MikeSmith, I was going to submit a proposal for a course (which is due today), but the submission instructions are still missing.
# [14:14] <MikeSmith> heycam - I don't know where they're at with the submission-proposal system. I'll find out and let you know.
# [14:15] <heycam> k thanks
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# [14:15] <MikeSmith> But due date for course submissions is May 1st, right?
# [14:15] <MikeSmith> June 1st
# [14:15] <MikeSmith> I mean
# [14:15] <MikeSmith> not May 1st
# [14:15] <heycam> oh, so it is!
# [14:16] <heycam> i must have been looking at old submission dates, nm
# [14:17] * heycam sees that http headers tell him that that page was only modified some minutes ago, and guesses the dates were only just changed then :)
# [14:17] <Lachy> hasather, do you mean have I talked to people at Opera?
# [14:18] <hasather> Lachy: yea
# [14:19] <Lachy> I applied on Saturday, I recieved an email today letting me know I'd be getting a set of standard questions from HR shortly, and then an interview will be arranged
# [14:20] <hasather> ah, ok, good luck
# [14:20] * Lachy hopes he gets to fly to Norway for the interview :-)
# [14:20] * Lachy had better arrange a passport, though
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# [14:23] <MikeSmith> heycam - anyway, good to hear that you'll be there. There's a lot going on with SVG in Japan. The Japanese government has mandated SVG as the format for this "Autonomous Movement Support Project" (which involves combining of maps, interactive map kiosks near train stations, other stuff). And SVG Tiny 1.2 is on track to becoming a JIS standard. Lots of other stuff.
# [14:24] <heycam> yeah, should be fun to be back there (i went in 2004 too)
# [14:31] * heycam wonders what the difference between "concur" and "abstain" is
# [14:31] <heycam> and not voting at all :)
# [14:37] <Lachy> abstain means your vote isn't counted, concur means it is counted with the majority. I don't think there is any practical difference between the 2
# [14:39] <citoyen> There is if the blank votes are counted towards the whole
# [14:40] <Lachy> what do you mean?
# [14:40] <citoyen> say there are 5 yes, 4 no and one blank
# [14:40] <Lachy> is blank an abstain?
# [14:40] <citoyen> if blanks are counted towards the whole, 50% answered yes
# [14:40] <Lachy> oh
# [14:41] <citoyen> if they aren't, more than 50% answered yes
# [14:41] <Lachy> yeah, but that doesn't matter, because only the percentage of yes votes compared with the percentage of no votes matters
# [14:41] <citoyen> can make a difference in voting systems where a certain majority is required
# [14:41] <citoyen> I don't know if that is the case in W3C though
# [14:42] <Lachy> yeah, that's true
# [14:42] <citoyen> In any case it does give a more "correct" percentage
# [14:42] <citoyen> (imagine a case where there were 2 yes, 1 no and 50 blank)
# [14:44] <citoyen> also, in W3C's case where votes are not anonymous, it can make a difference for participants whether they say "we do not care about this issue" explicitly or simply don't vote at all
# [14:46] <Lachy> I don't understand why lack of anonynimity would make someone change their vote. I wouldn't.
# [14:48] <citoyen> No, they wouldn't want to change it. But they might want to make it clear that they are taking an explicit stance of "do not care" as opposed to not having considered or noticed the issue
# [14:48] <Lachy> ok
# [14:49] <citoyen> but I think the case of having a more correct percentage is more important
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# [15:34] <anne> seems like Dave Raggett's goals very wildly from the XForms WG
# [15:39] * anne wonders if Dave did any actual studies to see what people would understand better
# [15:40] <anne> Introducing such a fundamental new concept into HTML without it being clear whether it's actually needed seems like premature standardization...
# [15:43] <Lachy> Dave's whole idea that spreadsheets are simple, is wrong, IMHO. I struggle every time I need to write a spreadsheet forumla to do anything useful
# [15:44] <Lachy> I have to search through so much help and use complex UIs just to figure out what functions I need to use
# [15:48] <mjs> anne, Lachy: perhaps you guys should say something on the list, so I don't have to be the only one to make the xforms people cry
# [15:49] <Lachy> mjs, but you're donig so well :-)
# [15:50] <anne> whoa, Mark Birbeck weighs in
# [15:50] <Lachy> I learned my lesson last time I debated with the xforms people, they just don't listen
# [15:50] <anne> saying XForms Transitional is crap :)
# [15:50] <mjs> yeah, but they might write me off as that one crazy guy who keeps trying to apply reason and logic to the problem
# [15:50] <mjs> I love the way they made fun of me for looking at actual use cases on the web
# [15:50] * anne will say "I agree with what Maciej said earlier. +1"
# [15:50] <mjs> heh
# [15:51] <mjs> obviously we need to look at the kinds of applications people aren't writing and design the optimum technology for those
# [16:00] * karl has not yet figured out from the two camps why there is so much fight. Both solutions seem perfectly fine for me as a user and an author.
# [16:01] <anne> just arguments, no fighting
# [16:01] <anne> what solutions, btw?
# [16:01] <karl> XForms and Web Forms 2.0
# [16:01] <zcorpan> personally, i have never used spreadsheets. i hardly know what they are. so i can't grasp what dave is talking about
# [16:01] <karl> I have no trouble with any of them
# [16:02] <anne> oh, me neither
# [16:03] <anne> i just don't want to enforce xforms on the web
# [16:03] <karl> zcorpan: spreadsheet (aka excel and ancestors multiplan, lotus 1-2-3) is what made the start of personal computers in the business world.
# [16:03] <mjs> I'm actually not sure of the point of view of some participants in the discussion
# [16:04] <mjs> Dave Raggett wants to add XForms-like declarative expressions to HTML forms
# [16:04] <karl> mjs: me neither. It looks like more a vi/emacs debate more than anything.
# [16:04] <mjs> Mark Birbeck apparently does not
# [16:04] <anne> Dave Raggett seems to care about authoring tool interop for an expression language that runs on both the client and server
# [16:04] <anne> hsivonen was able to extract that much
# [16:05] <mjs> I'm not sure what John Boyer thinks of that specific idea, though he thinks XForms in general is cool
# [16:05] <karl> I see the benefit of declarative for users. Not many people are javascript hackers.
# [16:05] <anne> Mark Birbeck seems to want XForms in browsers
# [16:05] <anne> karl, Prolog Basic
# [16:05] <mjs> well, if your "declarative" language is a JavaScript subset, I don't see much potential benefit
# [16:05] <anne> Visual Prolog was the joke
# [16:05] <anne> ouch
# [16:05] <mjs> and if it is XPath, then it's likely to make things worse
# [16:06] * karl didn't get the joke, but it must be a geek joke ;)
# [16:06] <mjs> Prolog is a programming language designed to be entirely declarative
# [16:06] <mjs> you make assertions, and it automatically gets to the answer
# [16:06] <zcorpan> karl: many authors are copying and pasting scripts, so it wouldn't matter to them if it was declarative or imperative. their way of achieving what they want would still be the same, afaict
# [16:06] <anne> I'm not sure it's likely people will understand math way better than imperative programming
# [16:07] <zcorpan> anne: exactly
# [16:07] <karl> zcorpan: I'm not a big fan of scripts even cut and paste. I have always avoided javascript on the Web for my own needs
# [16:07] <zcorpan> i'm just observing what authors do :)
# [16:07] <zcorpan> not saying what they should do
# [16:08] <karl> zcorpan: they don't have a choice ;)
# [16:08] <mjs> well, XForms Transitional is all about adding JavaScript in a different way
# [16:08] <zcorpan> they want effect X, google for it, find a blob of markup that they paste into their page and it works
# [16:08] <zcorpan> doesn't matter if it's script or not
# [16:08] <mjs> it's not about eliminating the need for JavaScript
# [16:08] <mjs> as far as I can tell
# [16:08] <anne> right
# [16:09] <anne> it's not there to replace it, just to replace it to some extend
# [16:09] <mjs> if it really comes down to the difference between calculate="..." and onforminput="value=..."
# [16:09] <anne> and in theory that would be simpler than just using javascript in the first place
# [16:09] <mjs> except that it has the topological sort thing to make response to inputs happen in other than document order
# [16:10] * karl is trying to wake up his memories of multiplan or excel formulae from university labs
# [16:10] <karl> I see one way where it could be successful is to really mock up what excel does for these formulae.
# [16:10] <karl> Same syntax would help adoption
# [16:11] <anne> yeah, Excel and versioning :)
# [16:11] <mjs> anne: Mark Birbeck did send an example, though I don't think it is a complete standalone document - I dunno what boilerplate is needed
# [16:12] * karl notes to Anne that I didn't take position on versioning
# [16:13] <karl> just counter-balancing when I see wrong examples in favor of no versioning.
# [16:13] <mjs> I don't think built-in forms features would be helpful to making a spreadsheet that works on the web
# [16:13] <mjs> you would want the user's expression language to be isolated from the real content to some extent
# [16:13] <anne> this was nothing specific to you karl
# [16:13] <anne> just that Excel has versioning which may or may not be part of taking over their expressions
# [16:14] <mjs> I don't think spreadsheets are that easy to use for anything non-trivial
# [16:14] <karl> I wonder how Google does in importing spreadsheet from office applications
# [16:14] <mjs> once you are past summing rows and columns, maybe a bit of multiplication, people tend to go to a real programming language
# [16:14] <anne> The few web spreadsheet apps wouldn't benefit from these extensions. (As I understand it Hixie asked them, or at least the ones doing it at Google.)
# [16:15] <mjs> it's amazing how asking the people actually doing something is often discounted, compared to having a theory of what they need
# [16:16] <karl> mjs: then for spreadsheets the people to ask is marketing and sales department
# [16:17] <mjs> karl: you'd ask them what technology should be used to implement their spreadsheet apps?
# [16:17] <mjs> that seems like it's skipping a level
# [16:17] <anne> those people don't give shit about HTML
# [16:17] <mjs> or should I ask them if spreadsheets could be a hot new marketable browser feature?
# [16:17] <anne> (nor should they)
# [16:17] <mjs> I can tell you what my marketing guy would say to that
# [16:18] <karl> mjs: no what they would like to have when using a spreadsheet
# [16:18] <karl> and I'm pretty sure
# [16:18] <mjs> isn't that up to people implementing spreadsheet apps?
# [16:19] <karl> they will answer, do not change anything on my formulae.
# [16:20] <karl> basically the problem for me is we try to fit everything in the browser when we should fit HTTP in applications… but I guess I'm dreaming of a lost cause
# [16:20] <mjs> I guess that is a good point though - if people are locked in to their current formula language, offering a different formula language is unhelpful to spreadsheet tools
# [16:20] <karl> yep
# [16:20] <mjs> but I think the premise of XForms Transitional is that a lot of people will do spreadsheet type stuff who don't do so at all today
# [16:21] <mjs> so on the one hand less of a lock-in issue, but on the other hand, it's a less plausible scenario
# [16:26] <MikeSmith> I think Dave Raggett's view is that he wants to try to find ways to make things easier for authors and web developers. I guess it's arguable whether the approaches he suggest really do that. But at least I think that's where he's coming from.
# [16:32] <mjs> well, "try to find ways to make things easier for authors and web developers" is the kind of patriotic statement everyone can agree with
# [16:32] <mjs> it's like "support our troops"
# [16:32] <mjs> the question is, what's the best way to accomplish the goal
# [16:33] * anne isn't sure everyone agrees with "support our troops"
# [16:34] <mjs> people in the US often interpret it to mean "support our troops by removing them from places where they are likely to be killed"
# [16:34] * karl agrees with anne. But in USA, it is forbidden to not be patriotic.
# [16:34] <mjs> which usually is not what the slogan is meant to convey
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# [16:35] <mjs> my point is that a seemingly simple patriotic statement may not imply what you want it to
# [16:38] <MikeSmith> mjs - I guess "make things easier for authors" is not something everybody would agree with if it means doing it at the expense of breaking backward compatibility and adding implementation complexity to browsers that browser vendors don't have a market need for adding
# [16:39] <mjs> I think anything that breaks backwards compatibility is on the whole not making things easier for authors
# [16:40] <mjs> as for adding implementation complexity, that has to be weighed against degree of benefit compared to other proposed features of similar complexity
# [16:40] <mjs> indeed, implemenetation complexity costs all authors and users
# [16:41] <mjs> since it increases likelihood of bugs, security holes, interop problems, etc
# [16:41] <mjs> so to be worth it, significant implementation complexity has to bring strong benefits to a wide range of authors
# [16:46] * anne wonders why slider controls couldn't be done before
# [16:47] <mjs> well, you could make them by hand
# [16:47] <mjs> with script
# [16:47] <mjs> and have them link to a hidden form field
# [16:48] * karl has the same kind of questioning with regards to display: table in CSS. Why it has not been done before. It would have killed table layout.
# [16:48] <mjs> display: table isn't getting used mainly b/c IE does not support it
# [16:48] <karl> yes I know that
# [16:49] <karl> my question is why it has not been implemented
# [16:49] <karl> since the table elements have been
# [16:49] <karl> and it is mostly the same behaviour
# [16:49] <mjs> it wasn't in CSS1, and since that era Windows IE has fallen way behind the other browsers
# [16:50] <anne> display:table isn't even specced properly
# [16:50] <anne> imo
# [16:51] <anne> Implementing a table layout model without significantly reverse engineering other browsers is currently not possible
# [16:51] <mjs> yep
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# [16:58] <Philip`> The only time I've written things using display:table, I ended up basically replacing <table> with <div style="display:table">, and <tr> with <div style="display:table-row">, etc, and adding exactly the same tag structure as if I was using real tables (because nice clean HTML wouldn't have the right elements to hook the styles onto), and I wondered what the point was in doing that instead of using normal tables
# [16:59] <anne> the point is that in theory your not abusing semantic elements
# [17:00] <Philip`> It's abusing non-semantic elements instead :-)
# [17:01] <MikeSmith> the point is that it fools the anti-table police :)
# [17:01] <mjs> Philip`: giving the divs appropriate class names instead of inline styles might have been more semantic
# [17:02] <anne> Philip`, yeah, that seems less bad for the people actually doing something with <table>
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# [17:05] <Philip`> I was just doing that table layout to put some SVG images around a canvas, because I couldn't think of a better way which would work - I suppose in a perfect world it'd be an SVG background image or something, and I wouldn't need any <object>s or inline layout
# [17:07] <Philip`> (I guess it's just hard to be semantic when the entire purpose of the page is to be a graphical effect)
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# [17:19] <anne> browser spec versus language spec?!
# [17:19] <anne> maybe karl could point to "classes of products"
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# [18:24] <anne> wtf is this
# [18:24] <anne> almost every e-mail in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/ is prefixed with "Re:"
# [18:24] <anne> or "RE:"
# [18:24] * anne replies
# [18:25] <Sander> Will your email start with "Antw:"? ;)
# [18:25] <Philip`> Sounds like he also doesn't have a mail reader that threads messages properly
# [18:26] <Philip`> (...else the lack of Re wouldn't matter)
# [18:26] <anne> Sander, heh, too late!
# [18:27] <Lachy> what does Antw: mean?
# [18:27] <Sander> "Antwoord" is dutch for "reply"
# [18:27] <Lachy> ok
# [18:32] <anne> maybe because he just joined threading is broken or someting?
# [18:32] <anne> oh well
# [18:32] <anne> i don't care
# [18:32] * claudio is now known as claudio\out
# [18:35] <anne> BBQ and beer in the park...
# [18:35] <beowulf> excellent
# [18:35] <anne> (the problem was with his mail client btw)
# [18:45] <Sander> huh weird, I didn't know SeaMonkey could do that.
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# [20:01] <mjs> up to 67 yesses, still 0 no votes
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# [22:25] * gsnedders still expects the first person to vote no won't have read the bit about it being a formal objection
# [22:28] <Zeros> Nothing in the proposal was on a level to be /that/ objectionable. Most objections that were raised early on related to black and white interpretations of things like bringing over the spec
# [22:30] <gsnedders> Zeros: take a look on www-html, about the questioning about defining error handling. there are people very much against large sections of the spec
# [22:31] <Zeros> gsnedders, I'm not sure how that's related.
# [22:32] <gsnedders> if you're against large sections of the spec, and the principles it is written on, you may be against adopting it
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# [22:32] <Zeros> That's fine. The spec is up for discussion. I've not seen any strong objections to using WHAWG HTML5 as a the starting point, the issues were with rubber stamping it, which it has already been said is not happening
# [22:32] <Zeros> I'm against large sections of the WHATWG HTML5 too
# [22:32] <gsnedders> there were some people very much against it
# [22:33] <mjs> there still are not any no votes
# [22:33] * Hixie would be strongly against rubberstamping it given how unstable it is!
# [22:34] <mjs> so where is the info that a "no" vote constituted a Formal Objection?
# [22:35] <gsnedders> mjs: look at the final section
# [22:35] <schepers> url?
# [22:35] <mjs> oh, in Decision Process
# [22:35] <gsnedders> 'A "no" vote in this survey is a formal objection.'
# [22:35] <gsnedders> schepers: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/htmlbg/
# [22:35] <mjs> yeah, I don't think people will see that before voting
# [22:35] <schepers> thanks
# [22:36] <mjs> but I guess people who don't give a rationale for their "no" vote can be reminded
# [22:44] * gsnedders allows self to be dragged onto www-html's discussion
# [22:45] <mjs> oh no
# [22:45] <mjs> public-html is messy enough
# [22:45] <mjs> woe betide those who enter the www-html tarpit
# [22:46] <schepers> abandon all hope, ye who enter here...
# [22:46] <mjs> trying to one-up my Milton quote with Dante?
# [22:47] <schepers> HTML macht frei!
# [22:47] <schepers> there, I just lowered my cred, happy?
# [22:47] <mjs> now that's just creepy
# [22:50] * schepers is a little bemused by the "Concur (cast vote with the majority)" option
# [22:50] <Zeros> Which list is www-html?
# [22:50] <schepers> why bother voting if you're just +1ing?
# [22:53] <mjs> it's just a friendlier-sounding abstain
# [22:53] <Zeros> oh, so www-html is just public discussion outside the wg?
# [22:54] * schepers might use "concur" for the "editors" question...
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# [22:56] <mjs> the status of www-html is unclear
# [22:56] <mjs> (as in, what it's supposed to be for)
# [22:57] <schepers> I'm honestly torn about the editors question...
# [22:59] <Hixie> feel free to vote no, it would give me a lot more free time :-D
# [23:00] <schepers> no it wouldn't... you're surely going to be the editor
# [23:01] <Zeros> schepers, just make sure you write up your formal objection!
# [23:01] <schepers> and honestly, I think you're the most qualified person willing to do the job
# [23:01] <schepers> and of course Hyatt is also a great choice
# [23:02] <schepers> but I'd still rather have an additional person outside the WHATWG
# [23:02] <hyatt> not sure what you mean by "outside the WHATWG"
# [23:02] <hyatt> it's not like i'm that involved with the WHATWG
# [23:03] * hyatt will be reading much of web apps for the first time when html wg starts reviewing it :)
# [23:03] <schepers> heh
# [23:03] <mjs> I haven't even read all of it
# [23:03] <mjs> and there's at least one whole section (networking spec) that I violently disagree with
# [23:03] <Zeros> I think hyatt should get us a diverse enough view between the editors
# [23:06] <hyatt> now i do admit to being pretty harmoniously meshed with ian on web forms
# [23:06] <mjs> we'd have a set of (editors + chairs) who have worked on every major browser, worked at the w3c, and collectively worked on numerous web standards before
# [23:06] <hyatt> ian = opera + gecko
# [23:06] <hyatt> me = gecko + webkit
# [23:07] <hyatt> chris wilson = msie
# [23:07] <hyatt> good coveage
# [23:08] <schepers> yeah, I know... all logical arguments
# [23:08] <hyatt> honestly the only "great divide" i've seen so far is the xforms vs. everyone else thing
# [23:08] <mjs> there's also break compat vs not
# [23:09] <hyatt> i personally have nothing against xforms, but i do think it's a very specialized technology designed to solve very specialized domain space problems (e.g., government/finance sites)
# [23:09] <mjs> all semantic vs. more presentational vs. current balance is about right
# [23:09] <hyatt> mjs: i don't think there are people in this group who want to break compat vs. not though
# [23:09] <schepers> depends on how you phrase it
# [23:09] <mjs> schepers argued at some length that we shouldn't have a principle against breaking compat
# [23:10] <hyatt> if we don't want to have to have a version switch for alternative browsers, it would be nice not to break compat :)
# [23:10] <hyatt> speaking just for webkit, i'd like every html page we see to support html5 features
# [23:10] <Zeros> There was quite a few emails about a HTML4 and HTML5 mode an forking the engines so we wouldn't need strict backwards compatibility
# [23:10] <hyatt> i don't want to have to version
# [23:10] <Zeros> and*
# [23:10] <mjs> ditto, and I think Mozilla and Opera want the same
# [23:10] <mjs> thus my lengthy responses to shepers and also Philip Taylor and others on this point
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# [23:11] <schepers> I'm willing to admit that maybe I'm wrong on that larger issue, but it feels wrong to me... but again, I might be out of step with this WG's goals and deliverables there
# [23:12] <schepers> I've been reading through the WHAT WG stuff, trying to allay or support my gut feeling, but nothing conclusive yet
# [23:12] <mjs> I think the fact that conformance for documents is more strict than conformance for UAs gives us sufficient opportunity to simplify the authoring model
# [23:12] <mjs> that plus trying to do a damn good job on design of any wholly new features
# [23:13] <schepers> then again, I'm just one guy, not even working for a browser vendor
# [23:13] <schepers> so maybe I should just suck it up
# [23:13] <Hixie> i'm really getting tired of this +1 business
# [23:14] <mjs> Hixie: +1 to that
# [23:14] <schepers> why?
# [23:14] <Zeros> schepers, don't suck it up, voice your opinion. Better to say it now, and possibly make a difference, than let something happen later, which in all likelihood on the web will be irreversible.
# [23:15] <mjs> I think it's good to voice your opinion and be prepared to go the other way if the issue is not a showstopper for you
# [23:16] <hyatt> yeah don't be afraid to speak up :)
# [23:16] <schepers> er, yeah, that's not a problem for me, clearly :)
# [23:17] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.99.124) (Quit: mjs)
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# [23:18] <schepers> I'm just honestly not sure what is better for the Web
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# [23:21] <hyatt> so say that too :)
# [23:21] <schepers> heh
# [23:23] <hyatt> i would really like to not have a compatibility break
# [23:23] <hyatt> just so that people can keep authoring html as they have in the past
# [23:23] <hyatt> with no doctype at the top
# [23:23] <hyatt> and get the new stuff
# [23:23] * schepers hates doctypes
# [23:23] <mjs> so authors can adopt new features and new practices at their own pace
# [23:23] <hyatt> and the reality is we'll all have this fully implemented before msft has done anything on it
# [23:23] <hyatt> ;)
# [23:24] <hyatt> kidding.
# [23:24] <hyatt> sort of.
# [23:24] <hyatt> :)
# [23:24] <mjs> well, if they want to switch engines for HTML5 anyway, they could always use ours
# [23:24] <mjs> it's open source and all
# [23:24] <mjs> keep Trident for legacy content
# [23:24] <schepers> that would actually be great
# [23:24] <hyatt> i hear that webkit can't render half the web though!
# [23:25] <mjs> hyatt: as long as we can render the *good* half
# [23:25] <hyatt> true. true.
# [23:25] <gavin> we should get rid of the other half
# [23:25] <gavin> I bet it's mostly spam anyways
# [23:25] <schepers> gavin+1
# [23:25] <schepers> do I get to choose which half?
# [23:26] <Philip`> I think the left half is usually the most interesting
# [23:26] <schepers> yeah, that's the artist half, right?
# [23:28] * Quits: Sander (svl@80.60.87.115) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
# [23:28] <Philip`> Based on an extensive survey of three sites' front pages, that's the half with fewer adverts
# [23:31] <Zeros> Someone said webkit couldn't render half the web?
# [23:32] <Zeros> It would be nice if it could render the mail server admin at the office though, heh. That's one horribly broken page. :/
# [23:34] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
# [23:36] <Zeros> mjs, do you honestly think that's a viable solution?
# [23:36] <mjs> Zeros: do I think what is a viable solution?
# [23:36] <Zeros> replacing trident with something else entire
# [23:36] <Zeros> ly
# [23:37] <mjs> IE adopting another engine? Obviously MS would never go for it and I am joking.
# [23:37] <mjs> although the specific joke was to only use another engine for HTLM5 content and newer
# [23:37] <mjs> which is actually kind of a good idea in the abstract but will never happen
# [23:38] <Zeros> raises curious dependency issues for other nonweb content
# [23:39] <mjs> other nonweb content would presumably not be using the HTML5 doctype
# [23:39] <mjs> I think we are taking the joking suggestion too seriously though
# [23:39] <Zeros> mhm
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# [23:41] * Zeros changes topic to 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
# [23:42] <Zeros> What exactly is Murray arguing for or against?
# [23:47] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Quit: Leaving)
# Session Close: Tue May 01 00:00:00 2007

The end :)