/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-08 / end

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# Session Start: Tue May 08 00:00:00 2007
# Session Ident: #html-wg
# [00:03] <Hixie> so are all these e-mails still actually introducing new information, or is each e-mail repeating an earlier e-mail?
# [00:05] <ddailey> The similarity coefficient would appear to be high
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# [00:22] <Philip`> Is it just me, or does a subject like "Re: Getting beyond the ping pong match (was RE: Cleaning House)" make absolutely no sense?
# [00:23] <Dashiva> It makes sense in context, but the discussion itself is bordering on senseless :)
# [00:23] <gavin> heh
# [00:24] <gavin> I don't think it makes sense in context, either
# [00:24] <gavin> the ping pong match was so much fun that now we need to clean the house
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# [00:26] <mjs> Hixie: some of them are just multi-page ways of saying "+1" to an earlier email
# [00:27] <Hixie> good times
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# [00:31] <mjs> I'm really not enjoying the way DanC has interpreted the decision process
# [00:32] <mjs> we have votes overwhelmingly in favor of three resolutions but there is no way to tell if they carry until magical pronouncement from the chairs, which might not happen until after an unspecified period of negotiating with the few dissenters
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# [00:44] <ddailey> I rather like that -- it gives a sort of independent opportunity to see if consensus were indeed possible -- or whether substantive arguments had in fact been overlooked
# [00:45] <ddailey> Now certainly how consensus can work (or whether or not it is possible) in a group of this size
# [00:45] <ddailey> that is a reasonable question.
# [00:47] <ddailey> I did rather hope that the "ping pong match" and the "clean the house" threads would have helped the discussion emerge to some higher level
# [00:48] <ddailey> like maybe it's time to bring in Jimmy Carter
# [00:49] <ddailey> There was a proposal before the US Congress in the late 1970's early 1980's to fund a "peace academy" -- the premise was that skills of making peace should be funded every bit as much as the military academies.
# [00:50] <ddailey> I think in marketing they call it "buy in"
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# [00:58] <ddailey> mjs: it looks like you and I agreed on the copyright issue on that one objection.
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# [07:09] <karl> still 840 emails to go
# [07:10] <sbuluf> quite better than 2k
# [07:10] * Lachy wonders how you got through 1160 emails so quickly
# [07:22] <karl> Lachy I read them and go to the next.
# [07:22] <karl> but reading is one thing I do for pleasure. 150 pages book takes me around 2 hours usually.
# [07:23] <karl> plus the fact that many mails are in double www-html and public-html
# [07:26] <Lachy> you read a lot faster than I do
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# [09:15] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/emphasis-diagram - Emphasis (dao) diagram
# [09:16] <mjs> presumably (italic) is covered fully by the union of "meaningless" and other possible meanings of italic
# [09:17] <karl> should I change it with a version number? ;)
# [09:17] <Lachy> is that supposed to be a Venn Diagram?
# [09:17] <karl> http://www.w3.org/mid/463EF097.7060001@design-noir.de
# [09:18] <Lachy> yeah, I saw Dao's email already
# [09:18] <Lachy> the diagram just isn't accurate
# [09:20] <Lachy> though, in the email, it was probably caused by limitations with ASCII art
# [09:21] <Lachy> the remainder of italics should be filled up with non-specific semantics
# [09:21] <karl> if Dao sends me a better version I can modify mine easily
# [09:22] <Lachy> let me see if I can sketch a more accurate one...
# [09:22] <mjs> italics includes presumably at least the 10 conventional uses cited by wikipedia plus completely decorative use
# [09:23] <mjs> (I'd guess emphasis is the most common use, followed by book titles, but that's pulled out of my ass)
# [09:23] <karl> +local variations depending on languages I guess
# [09:25] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldface#Special_punctuation_marks
# [09:25] <karl> In Chinese, emphasis in body text is supposed to be indicated by using an "emphasis mark" (着重號), which is a dot placed under each character to be emphasized. This is still taught in schools, but in practice it is not usually done, probably due to the difficulty of doing this in most computer software. Methods used for emphasis in western texts but inappropriate for Chinese, for example underlining and setting text in artificially slanted type (frequentl
# [09:25] <karl> y incorrectly called "italics"), are often used instead.
# [09:25] <karl> In Korean texts, a dot is placed above each hangul syllable block or hanja to be emphasized.
# [09:25] <karl> Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphasis_%28typography%29"
# [09:26] <karl> hmm interesting where the "retrieved from" comes from. My cut and paste?
# [09:26] <karl> that is cool if it is
# [09:27] <mjs> I wonder if any software at all handles underdot emphasis
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# [09:31] <karl> mjs: it seems MS word X do it on Mac. But I can't test.
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# [09:34] <Lachy> karl, http://lachy.id.au/dev/2007/bold-italic-venn-diagram.png
# [09:35] <Lachy> ah, bold should include importance too
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# [09:37] <Lachy> fixed
# [09:38] <Hixie> so four of those circles are at the "html" layer, and two are at the "css" layer
# [09:38] <Hixie> but what's "decorative"?
# [09:38] <Lachy> decorative is use of italics and bold for no reason at all, except to look good
# [09:39] <Lachy> i.e. the meaningless uses of and
# [09:39] <Hixie> oh i know what it means
# [09:39] <anne> <h2>Test</h2> maybe?
# [09:39] <Hixie> i just meant if you look at it sideways, which layer would it be in
# [09:40] <anne> for my sample it would be CSS
# [09:40] <anne> but maybe my sample is just "italics"
# [09:40] * anne ponders
# [09:40] <Lachy> ah, it should be in the CSS layer, but often placed in the HTML layer by authors
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# [09:42] <Lachy> anne, you sample would depend on whether "Test" was a foreign word for the language of the document, and if that language used italics for such things
# [09:42] <Hixie> yeah but the CSS layer has concepts like "bold" and "italics" and "green", not "decorative"
# [09:42] <Hixie> there's no 'decorate: 67%' property
# [09:43] <Lachy> lol
# [09:43] <sbuluf> thank god
# [09:43] <mjs> there should be!
# [09:44] <Lachy> I think you maybe interpreting the diagram differently from me
# [09:44] <Hixie> all the other circles map directly to existing html or css syntax
# [09:44] <Hixie> i understand the original intent of the diagram
# [09:44] <Hixie> i'm trying to use the diagram to draw useful conclusions about what we should do
# [09:44] <anne> I think the intention is that four are HTML, one is CSS and the other two overlap
# [09:44] <anne> between the two
# [09:45] <mjs> I thought the intention was to explain the relationship between emphasis and italics
# [09:45] <mjs> that they are overlapping but not identical categories
# [09:45] <Hixie> mjs: right
# [09:46] <Hixie> anne: that interpretation doesn't help us design the languages
# [09:46] <anne> why not, it means that b oth CSS and HTML need some fallback for italcs and bold
# [09:46] <Lachy> emphasis, importance, foreign words, and keywords are all HTML. decorative is just a generic circle for all CSS properties. The bold and italic refer to the concepts, not specifically and
# [09:47] <anne> and that HTML should encourage people to use CSS instead for the decorative usage and CSS should do the same for the non-decoarative usage
# [09:47] <Hixie> anne: i agree with that premise, but i don't see that that falls out of the diagram
# [09:47] <Lachy> basically, the foreign words, etc. maps to , and the key words, etc. maps to
# [09:48] <anne> Hixie, k
# [09:52] <karl> ok done. :)
# [09:52] <anne> for every person that leaves the HTML WG there seem to be at least three new people
# [09:52] <karl> thanks Lachy
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# [09:53] <anne> (based on the past few days)
# [09:53] <Lachy> who else has left?
# [09:53] <anne> (overall the ratio is prolly much more in favor of joining)
# [09:54] <anne> Ian Shortman
# [09:55] <Lachy> other than Gareth Hay, I didn't recognise the other names that left
# [09:55] <anne> seems that Alexander Graf also switched to the XHTML2 WG
# [09:56] <anne> based on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0008.html
# [09:56] <Hixie> hey, i didn't notice that tina had joined the xhtml wg
# [09:57] <Lachy> Hixie, that was discussed here last week when she joined
# [09:57] <Hixie> cool
# [09:59] <Lachy> oh, I wonder why Olivier Thereaux left the group
# [10:01] <sbuluf> massive amounts of traffic might be a content-independent answer
# [10:01] <anne> or massive amounts of traffic without content :)
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# [10:39] <beowulf> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/
# [10:41] <anne> heh
# [10:41] <anne> we're evil!
# [10:41] <sbuluf> This is a call to action directed at all standardistas and accessibilitistas.
# [10:41] <sbuluf> i was wondering when it was going to start
# [10:42] <anne> but I'm not sure what he's talking about though
# [10:43] <anne> seems like quite a misunderstanding of the WHATWG proposal
# [10:43] <sbuluf> i assume different people will cry bloody murder for different reasons
# [10:43] <anne> as John Foliot said, the problem with not knowing history is that you're doomed to repeat it
# [10:44] <anne> (which applies equally well to John Foliot, but he didn't admit that)
# [10:44] <anne> (to be fair, I didn't point it out either)
# [10:45] <beowulf> I suppose from the mass of emails you could take any point of view on the direction of the wg
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# [10:45] <sbuluf> not quite, keeping back compat principle holds, no matter what, i reckon.
# [10:46] <anne> some people think it should not hold
# [10:47] <anne> Roger Johansson seems to think the WG can somehow mandate browsers to implement UI that indicates errors in pages like iCab does
# [10:47] <anne> that doesn't make much sense to me with at least 99% non-conformance
# [10:50] <sbuluf> i think back-compat will hold. simply put, w3c has to do what broswer makers want. all other browser makers have to do what MS want. else, MS moves out, or all browsser makers (MS and others) move out. and this WG basically dissolves.
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# [10:51] <anne> Well, it's part of the charter, but it's not what people argue for
# [10:52] <sbuluf> i think what i said still holds. no MS, no WG. no broswer vendors (MS and others), no group.
# [10:53] <anne> WHATWG exists without MS so I'm not really convinced
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# [10:53] <anne> (not that MS wasn't invited, btw)
# [10:54] <sbuluf> whatwg might keep at it, but that is different from this WG, i think.
# [10:54] <sbuluf> would you guys still want a w3c seal if MS leaves?
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# [11:00] <anne> yeah, I think so
# [11:01] <sbuluf> oh, then this WG could continue
# [11:02] <mjs> anne: did I ever tell you about my key for translating messages from supporters of "valid markup"?
# [11:03] <sbuluf> back-compat is hardwired into the charter, if i'm not wrong, so generic reversal of that is basically out of the question, no matter how many people complain
# [11:03] <mjs> sbuluf: the charter is actually maddeningly vague about the matter
# [11:03] * anne blames the chairs for not steering enough
# [11:04] <sbuluf> mjs, about back-compat? for me, the deciding word is "incremental"
# [11:04] <anne> unless the idea is for this group to remain unproductive, that is
# [11:04] <sbuluf> i doubt that, anne. cause of the vision document
# [11:04] <anne> the other thing the charter says is that the new language should define a syntax compatible with popular browser impl
# [11:04] <sbuluf> anne, right
# [11:05] <mjs> one of our chairs has done exactly 0 chairing
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# [11:05] <mjs> the other has done a moderate amount but seems to move kind of ponderously and with an excessive zeal for perfect consensus
# [11:05] <anne> in a day over two months now
# [11:06] <anne> still no outcome of the vote
# [11:06] <inimino> I wonder if the vs. thread is petering out?
# [11:07] <sbuluf> if anyone asks me...you guys should not worry about votes
# [11:07] <anne> I'm not worrying about the outcome of the votes
# [11:07] <sbuluf> at least unless outrage grows much
# [11:07] <anne> I'm worrying about lack of progress
# [11:07] <anne> not so much worrying
# [11:07] <mjs> we've so far accomplished nothing
# [11:07] <anne> more being upset with
# [11:08] <mjs> but that might change in a few days if the votes pass
# [11:10] <anne> I agree that some people seem to aim too much for perfect consensus
# [11:13] <mjs> it's impractical to try for more consensus in a huge group than is done in most medium sized groups
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# [11:45] <anne> hyatt, told howcome about fonts yesterday btw
# [11:46] <hyatt> anne: cool
# [11:46] <hyatt> anne: i sent mail to the css wg too
# [11:46] <anne> hyatt, he liked it, and I think his recent e-mail to w3c-css-wg therefore didn't use font-family:url() but @font-face ;)
# [11:46] <hyatt> anne: i hope we can get css3 web fonts pared down
# [11:46] <mjs> I still don't get why font-family:url() isn't good enough
# [11:47] <hyatt> it has a number of drawbacks
# [11:48] <hyatt> here are some cool things you can do with @font-face
# [11:48] <hyatt> (1) override what the generic families do
# [11:48] <hyatt> e.g., @font-face { font-family: monospace; local("Monaco"); }
# [11:48] <hyatt> URL can't do that
# [11:48] <hyatt> (2) alias fonts in your user stylesheet
# [11:49] <mjs> those both seem pretty obscure
# [11:49] <hyatt> @font-face font-family: "Times New Roman"; local("Times"); }
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# [11:49] <mjs> and it makes the common case more verbose
# [11:49] <mjs> but maybe if you use a custom font once, you want it multiple times anyway
# [11:49] <hyatt> i like the structure of defining a selection descriptor though
# [11:50] <anne> I like the aliasing
# [11:50] <hyatt> the URL is ambiguous and risks cascading unintentionally
# [11:50] <hyatt> here's an example
# [11:50] <hyatt> body { font-family: url(....); }
# [11:50] <anne> What does unicode-range do btw? Which is also restricted to @font-face
# [11:50] <hyatt> now somewhere i say
# [11:50] <hyatt> inside the body
# [11:50] <hyatt> that is using the custom font
# [11:50] <hyatt> i think things start getting odd at that point
# [11:51] <hyatt> has the custom font too, but what's the rule now for what to do
# [11:51] <hyatt> the URL relies on the UA having to dig into what is hopefully a zip archive
# [11:51] <hyatt> and intellligently match
# [11:51] <hyatt> it also forces you to bundle all the variants together, even if a bunch aren't used
# [11:52] <mjs> oh, you mean how to get a different font for bold
# [11:52] <mjs> good point
# [11:52] <mjs> for a while there I forgot what does
# [11:52] <anne> surely you can't style ?!
# [11:52] <hyatt> the URL is also more verbose if you start reusing the font
# [11:52] <hyatt> (and i think that's common)
# [11:52] <hyatt> (to use a font multiple times)
# [11:53] <anne> yeah
# [11:53] <hyatt> anne: unicode-range lets you specify that you only get that font for characters within the unicode range
# [11:53] <anne> interesting
# [11:53] <hyatt> so if a font has sucky support for some range
# [11:54] <hyatt> you can exclude it
# [11:54] <hyatt> and fall back to something better
# [11:54] <hyatt> etc
# [11:54] <hyatt> anyway having implemented @font-face, i actually like it.
# [11:54] <hyatt> i basically like sections 2.1-2.3 and 2.5
# [11:54] <hyatt> of the css3 web fonts spec
# [11:55] <hyatt> and hate evertything else
# [11:55] <hyatt> 2.6 onwards is just like someone was smoking crack
# [11:55] <hyatt> let's all specify our panose-1 numbers
# [11:55] <hyatt> i mean, yikes.
# [11:56] <mjs> matching fonts by approximate visual appearance seems like a pointless idea
# [11:56] <hyatt> it stems from an era when reflow was expensive and people were still using modems
# [11:56] <hyatt> that's how old this spec is heh
# [11:57] <mjs> well, not every engine can reflow the whole page as fast as ours
# [11:59] <hyatt> meh they're all fast enough for this
# [12:01] <anne> so basically you're delaying rendering until the font is fetched?
# [12:01] <hyatt> yeah
# [12:02] <anne> I suppose it's not much different from fetching a script...
# [12:02] <hyatt> i throw the font name over to the OS and get back some random font it gives me
# [12:02] <hyatt> most often lucida
# [12:02] <hyatt> and then use that to measure
# [12:02] <hyatt> but i suppress display
# [12:02] <hyatt> so things jsut shift around very slightly when the font comes in
# [12:02] <hyatt> or not at all
# [12:03] <hyatt> scripts stall the parser though
# [12:03] <hyatt> and in pretty much every browser but webkit stylesheets stall the parser too
# [12:03] <hyatt> i made fonts behave morel ike images basically than scripts/stylesheets
# [12:05] <anne> is @font-face required to be at the start of a style sheet?
# [12:06] <anne> much like @import ?
# [12:06] <hyatt> nope
# [12:06] <hyatt> not that i could see
# [12:06] <anne> k
# [12:06] <hyatt> i support it being anywhere
# [12:06] <hyatt> just like @media
# [12:07] <anne> i guess that makes sense
# [12:07] * anne thought it might help a little with incremental rendering
# [12:07] <hyatt> stylesheets parse so fast
# [12:07] <hyatt> in both gecko and webkit
# [12:07] <hyatt> (and i assume opera)
# [12:07] <mjs> hyatt: on mobile networks, waiting for the font might not cut it - then again we have doubletree now for those who care to use it
# [12:08] <hyatt> mjs: i would expect the font to render
# [12:08] <hyatt> mjs: they'll probably want to patch
# [12:08] <hyatt> in the same way they don't ignore stylesheets
# [12:08] <hyatt> err ignore stylesheets loading
# [12:08] <hyatt> border-image is similar
# [12:08] <hyatt> i suppress the fallback border style
# [12:08] <hyatt> while the image loads
# [12:08] <hyatt> and only show it if the border-image fails
# [12:09] <hyatt> same with list-style-image
# [12:09] <hyatt> you don't show a fallback bullet unless the image fails
# [12:09] <hyatt> etc
# [12:09] <hyatt> so fonts are consistent with all that
# [12:09] <hyatt> but yeah i could see how slow web would want the font to just render
# [12:10] <mjs> webkit's doubletree support just does a preliminary render completely ignoring stylesheets and scripts for slow networks, although not all mobile webkit implementations are using it
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# [15:59] <hsivonen> it seems to me that accessibilistas assume that AT won't change in response to HTML5 but authoring tools will. Is there any basis for this assumption?
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# [16:34] <anne2> browsers will change too
# [16:34] <anne2> somehow get this new parser
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# [17:11] <Boy14> Hello , men. Do you know if internet bots will govern the world ?
# [17:14] <Lachy> The Googlebot already governs the world
# [17:14] <Boy14> lol ok you are right. But except GoogleBot. If anyone had a bot ?
# [17:15] <Lachy> spambots?
# [17:15] <Lachy> bot nets?
# [17:16] <Lachy> any particular kind of bot?
# [17:16] <Boy14> lol i do not know
# [17:16] <Lachy> I do not understand you question
# [17:16] <Lachy> I mean, your question does not compute.
# [17:17] <Boy14> If anyone had a bot , what would happen ?
# [17:17] <Lachy> *beep*
# [17:18] <Lachy> I have no idea, I not sure what your point is
# [17:18] * zcorpan_ is a bot
# [17:18] * zcorpan_ will take over the world
# [17:19] <Boy14> sorry guys
# [17:19] <Boy14> my question was very stupid
# [17:19] <Boy14> delete
# [17:20] <Boy14> just type /clear
# [17:21] <Boy14> something else. the .com means company or commercial ?
# [17:21] <Lachy> google it
# [17:22] <Boy14> .com identifies a business (commercial)
# [17:22] <Boy14> is it right ?
# [17:22] <Lachy> the googlebot holds the answers that you seek
# [17:22] <Boy14> lol ok
# [17:22] <Lachy> IIRC, it means commercial
# [17:24] <Boy14> oh it is commercial
# [17:25] * jdandrea thinks of a certain album title ("Strictly Commercial")
# [17:25] <Boy14> lol . I didn't know it. I was thinking that it was company
# [17:30] <Boy14> and one last question that you may not know. Because i am from Cyprus , do you know why Cyprus's top-level domain is www.something.com.cy instead of www.something.cy ?
# [17:31] <zcorpan_> Boy14: you sure you came to the right channel?
# [17:32] <Boy14> aren't your site www.cyprus.com.cy ?
# [17:32] <Boy14> isn't*
# [17:32] <anne5> we're pleaseenteryourcreditcardnumber.com ?
# [17:32] <Lachy> Boy14, no
# [17:33] <Boy14> anything else anne5 ?
# [17:33] <zcorpan_> Boy14: we're http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
# [17:34] <zcorpan_> we don't do TLDs or bots
# [17:34] <Boy14> oh sorry. My mistake
# [17:34] <Lachy> Boy14, how did you find this channel?
# [17:35] <Boy14> I just typed /list and it was the one on the top
# [17:35] <gavin> how did you find this server?
# [17:35] <Lachy> ok, and the channel's name or topic didn't give you an idea of what it was for?
# [17:37] <Boy14> I knew that it was about internet
# [17:38] <Lachy> Boy14, do you have any any idea what HTML is?
# [17:40] <Boy14> yes
# [17:40] <Boy14> <docttype...>
# [17:40] <Boy14> <html>
# [17:41] <Boy14> <head>
# [17:41] <Boy14> bla bla bla
# [17:41] <Lachy> ok
# [17:41] <Boy14> I also know css
# [17:41] <Boy14> and a little of javascript
# [17:41] <Lachy> do you build web sites?
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# [17:42] <Boy14> yes , i want to become a popular web designer one day
# [17:42] <Lachy> how long have you been doing it?
# [17:42] <Boy14> I have been doing it since last october
# [17:42] <Boy14> for 6-7 months now
# [17:43] <Lachy> ok, so only a beginner
# [17:43] <Boy14> yeah
# [17:44] <Lachy> do you have a blog or website?
# [17:44] <beowulf> you've been doing it since october and you know html needs a doctype, that beats most of the people I work with...
# [17:44] <beowulf> s/needs/should have/
# [17:45] <Boy14> Lachy I haven't got one yet
# [17:45] <Lachy> are you self taught, learning at school, from a book, or elsewhere?
# [17:46] <Boy14> I learnt HTML and CSS from www.htmldog.com
# [17:46] <Lachy> ok, that's a reasonable site
# [17:47] <Boy14> One of my friends recommended it to me
# [17:47] <Lachy> have you learned much about web standards?
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# [17:48] <Boy14> I think so
# [17:48] <Lachy> do you pages validate?
# [17:49] <Boy14> from w3's valiator ?
# [17:49] <Lachy> yeah
# [17:49] <Boy14> yes
# [17:49] <Boy14> validator*
# [17:49] <Lachy> HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0?
# [17:50] <Boy14> That's my big wonder.
# [17:50] <Boy14> I am not sure
# [17:50] <Lachy> XHTML is not for beginners
# [17:50] <Lachy> stick with HTML
# [17:50] <Boy14> I sometimes use html doctype and sometime xhtml doctype
# [17:50] <Lachy> I have an article about that on my website
# [17:51] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/log/2005/12/xhtml-beginners
# [17:51] <Boy14> Actually , i have stuck with the XHTML rules
# [17:52] <Boy14> all tags must be closed , attributes lowercase ...
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# [17:53] <Lachy> what about correct MIME type, declaring character encoding properly, marking up scripts properly, etc.?
# [17:54] <Boy14> MIME type like text/css , text/image etc ?
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# [17:54] <Lachy> never mine
# [17:54] <Lachy> mind*
# [17:54] <Lachy> just asking difficult questions for fun
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# [17:56] <Boy14> Yeah , this questions are difficult. The encoding also is very difficult. ISO-.... , UTF...
# [17:56] <Boy14> these*
# [17:57] <Lachy> well, there's some stuff for you to look up and learn :-)
# [17:59] <Boy14> So , I must get used to using HTML instead of XHTML . Right ?
# [17:59] <zcorpan_> not really
# [18:00] <zcorpan_> you can use xhtml syntax in text/html and not worry so much :)
# [18:00] <zcorpan_> or use html syntax in text/html and not worry so much
# [18:00] <Boy14> hm ok
# [18:01] <Boy14> but what is text/html ?
# [18:01] <zcorpan_> it's the MIME type for HTML
# [18:02] <zcorpan_> text/css is for CSS, image/png is for PNG
# [18:02] <Boy14> text/javascript is for Javascript. Yeah right . Thanks
# [18:02] <zcorpan_> yeah
# [18:03] <zcorpan_> although apache servers still serve .js files as application/x-javascript IIRC
# [18:03] <anne5> doesn't really matter
# [18:03] <Lachy> luckily, browsers just ignore the javascript MIME from the server
# [18:03] <zcorpan_> anne5: indeed
# [18:17] <Boy14> By the way , Internet is a huge computer network which connects many computers together ?
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# [18:18] <Lachy> that's a simple definition of the internet
# [18:19] <Boy14> Those computers are servers ?
# [18:23] <Lachy> there are all sorts of computers. web servers, ISPs, clients, gateways, etc.
# [18:24] * Lachy suggests you look it up
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# [22:24] <gsnedders> can anyone suggest to the CSS WG a colour property? I'd _love_ to be able to change the colour of text!
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# [22:36] <Dashiva> gsnedders: i18n? :)
# [22:37] <gsnedders> Dashiva: sarcasm? :)
# [22:45] <Philip`> CSS lets you say "color: flavor", but that seems very media-dependent - I think it should allow properties like "flavor: chocolate" too
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# Session Close: Wed May 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)