/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed May 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  30. # [02:19] * beowulf tries to understand the colour blind remark on the list, did murray subsequently change his page?
  31. # [02:19] <Philip`> It used to be dark red on dark green
  32. # [02:20] <beowulf> that explains it
  33. # [02:20] <beowulf> because it's currently fine
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  35. # [02:21] <beowulf> ah, should have read on down the thread
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  47. # [05:17] <karl> http://www.ilovejackdaniels.com/cheat-sheets/html-cheat-sheet/
  48. # [05:21] <marcos> nice
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  66. # [08:51] <karl> http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/05/w3c_at_www2007.html
  67. # [08:51] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/09-future_webpage.html
  68. # [08:52] <mjs> oh, it's "the future of the web page", not "the future of the web"
  69. # [08:53] * mjs is surprised to see no WHATWG type people on the panel
  70. # [08:54] <karl> what is a "whatwg type people"?
  71. # [08:54] <karl> :)
  72. # [08:55] <karl> Arun Ranganathan (AOL) has been supportive of HTML WG rechartering.
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  74. # [08:58] <sbuluf> star trek booklists. that's what i searched for. star trek booklists. but if i get them in html, i have to scrap them up. given the guys doing it probably had the info in a database, i asked myself why on earth his database and my database can not talk with each other?
  75. # [08:58] <sbuluf> since then, webpages are not the *only* thing.
  76. # [08:59] <sbuluf> i want a browseable, normal web. but i also want a *queryable* web. no webpages there.
  77. # [09:00] <mjs> karl: people who are familiar enough with Web Apps 1.0 / Web Forms 2.0 to give a presentation on it (like anne, hsivonen, Lachy, jgraham, Hixie...)
  78. # [09:00] <sbuluf> no rdfa either. just links between the two webs.
  79. # [09:00] <mjs> karl: and I mean for informational reasons, not advocacy reasons
  80. # [09:00] <mjs> people are bound to be curious
  81. # [09:02] <karl> mjs: I believe that Chris will talk about it. I have seen in the slides both XForms and Web Forms 2.0 for example.
  82. # [09:03] <karl> and I wonder if there are people of the whatwg at the conference
  83. # [09:03] <karl> they can still be in the room.
  84. # [09:03] <karl> and speak if they think that something is missing
  85. # [09:03] <mjs> I have no idea
  86. # [09:03] <mjs> I wonder if anyone thought to invite them
  87. # [09:04] <mjs> the panel as it is, is kind of weird
  88. # [09:04] <mjs> particularly given some of the circumstances around the HTML WG rechartering
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  91. # [09:07] <karl> note that it is not about HTML
  92. # [09:07] <karl> but about the Web page
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  94. # [09:08] <karl> means HTML + accessibility + applications + CSS, etc.
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  104. # [10:23] <anne> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1178698369 has a nice list on on why conformance versus user agent requirements are good to have
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  110. # [10:32] <anne> heh, no e-mails today so far :)
  111. # [10:32] <anne> guess everyone is tired of the useless discussion
  112. # [10:32] <anne> (no e-mails from public-html that is)
  113. # [10:33] <anne> nm
  114. # [10:33] <anne> there are in fact 3
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  116. # [10:34] <mjs> the volume has slowed to a trickle
  117. # [10:35] <mjs> I think people are waiting for the chairs to announce whether the resultion favored by a 95-3-4 vote actually passed
  118. # [10:36] <anne> and then we'll get another 1000
  119. # [10:37] <mjs> I want to start a discussion on how to do issue tracking
  120. # [10:37] <mjs> and who will do it
  121. # [10:37] <mjs> and what requirements there would be for tracking software
  122. # [10:37] <anne> there seems to be some on www-archive
  123. # [10:38] <laplink> What's stopping you?
  124. # [10:38] <anne> well, an e-mail from DanC
  125. # [10:38] <mjs> issue tracking discussion?
  126. # [10:38] <jgraham> mjs: Useful discussions that might lead to spec progress are strictly off-topic for public-html, no? ;)
  127. # [10:38] <anne> mjs, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007May/0046.html
  128. # [10:38] <laplink> heh heh
  129. # [10:38] <mjs> laplink: well, if the chairs decide the resolution didn't pass, there are more important orders of business
  130. # [10:38] <anne> mjs, you're not cc'ed it seems
  131. # [10:39] <anne> mjs, getting a patent policy for the WHATWG :p
  132. # [10:39] <laplink> Well, issue tracking will be needed no matter what's decided, non?
  133. # [10:39] * anne wonders if the chairs will discuss every single vote we have with the directors for the Formal Objections
  134. # [10:39] <mjs> anne: well, I told DanC it was silly to treat every "no" vote as an FO
  135. # [10:39] <anne> laplink, I don't think that's clear
  136. # [10:39] <mjs> but he is insistent about it
  137. # [10:40] <anne> grmbl
  138. # [10:40] <laplink> mjs, that's because, afaict, the Process requires it.
  139. # [10:40] <mjs> laplink: if we come out of the vote with no spec and no editors, then I will try to change that fact, and failing that, will put my effort into something more useful than the html wg
  140. # [10:40] <anne> well, if he believes we can make progress his way...
  141. # [10:40] <mjs> laplink: I don't believe it does, in fact I believe treating the votes that way violates the Process
  142. # [10:40] <laplink> And for the record, I also asked him about some decent way to indicate dissent without going to full out FO.
  143. # [10:40] <anne> laplink, the process doesn't
  144. # [10:41] <mjs> laplink: a Formal objection is an objection to a *decision*, not to a *proposal*
  145. # [10:41] <mjs> if you vote some way on a proposal and don't like the result, *then* you may register a Formal Objection
  146. # [10:41] * anne wonders who laplink is
  147. # [10:41] <mjs> (or even if you didn't vote)
  148. # [10:41] <mjs> also, no other WG treats "no" votes that way
  149. # [10:41] * laplink == xover (travelling)
  150. # [10:42] <mjs> laplink: I think part of the problem with the "every no is an FO" system is that it stifles dissent
  151. # [10:42] <laplink> mjs, I'm inclined to agree; at least in general.
  152. # [10:42] <mjs> people feel bad about disagreeing with the group because it could stop work
  153. # [10:42] <laplink> Yeah, my feeling exactly.
  154. # [10:42] <mjs> I would rather have an honest vote and then people agree to move on than a forced artificial consensus
  155. # [10:43] <anne> DanC said those people would have to abstain and say in the comments they disagreed or something... which seems kind of weird to me
  156. # [10:43] <mjs> (or if someone is unwilling to move on after the vote, then we can reconsider the issue)
  157. # [10:43] <anne> Other groups let you say no and also let you formally object to moving something to LC or CR or something similar
  158. # [10:44] <anne> But you don't formall object during a vote typically
  159. # [10:44] <laplink> Well, this way of doing things will also tend to put more pressure on the Chairs.
  160. # [10:44] <mjs> my way of thinking about it is that formal objections should be a rare exception to the process
  161. # [10:44] <mjs> and also that getting 100% agreement before every decision is impossible
  162. # [10:44] * anne thinks the chairs could use some more pressure
  163. # [10:44] <anne> it may well be that they're very active behind the scenes but it certainly doesn't feel that way
  164. # [10:45] <anne> wouldn't chairs invest like 50% of their time or something in the WG?
  165. # [10:45] <mjs> even the staff contacts should be doing that
  166. # [10:45] <mjs> (50%)
  167. # [10:46] <laplink> I think the Chairs are 1-2 days/week.
  168. # [10:46] <laplink> The Staff Contact 50%.
  169. # [10:46] <laplink> It should be in the Charter or thereabouts.
  170. # [10:47] <mjs> both those things are in the charter
  171. # [10:47] <laplink> But note that, IIRC, WWW2007 is running this week so that might be getting in the way.
  172. # [10:48] <anne> i know
  173. # [10:48] <anne> i'm talking about the past two months
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  176. # [10:49] <anne> oops
  177. # [10:49] <anne> so yeah, co-chairs are 1-2 days a week...
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  180. # [10:50] * anne wonders if that's enough
  181. # [10:52] <laplink> Well, it's possible they're trying out a hands-off approach to guiding the process/discussions/etc.
  182. # [10:53] <anne> The impression I got from DanC is that he's only willing to make a point once
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  184. # [10:54] <laplink> Well, he mentioned deliberately sending few messages to the list on the teory that people would then pay more attention to them.
  185. # [10:55] * laplink goes off to do the hotel room shuffle...
  186. # [10:56] <anne> right
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  227. # [18:35] <zcorpan_> is public-html cooling down? or is it just an illusion?
  228. # [18:37] <anne> there's less e-mail
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  230. # [18:37] <zcorpan_> let's hope it stays so
  231. # [18:38] <zcorpan_> a few days ago i was expecting 3000 emails for this month
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  236. # [19:02] <anne> it certainly gives you a lot of extra time to do useful stuff :)
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  261. # [21:16] * Quits: MrNaz (Naz@203.214.95.166) (Quit: Leaving)
  262. # [22:03] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.42.158) (Ping timeout)
  263. # [22:04] * Joins: schepers (schepers@72.29.239.177)
  264. # [22:07] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
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  268. # [22:39] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
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  272. # [23:29] * Joins: JacksonW (jackson@66.92.150.81)
  273. # [23:31] <JacksonW> is the mailing list slow for the first time in history today? down?
  274. # [23:32] * Parts: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  275. # [23:33] <zcorpan_> JacksonW: perhaps someone was tired of the amount and wanted a silent day? :)
  276. # [23:33] <JacksonW> I'm not complaining, just making sure things were still working properly ;)
  277. # [23:33] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  278. # [23:33] * DanC_lap waves from WWW2007 "future of the web page" session
  279. # [23:34] <JacksonW> rarely do I actually make progress in trying to read the list... but my unread numbers are going down, so that's great
  280. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> DanC_lap (and others) - join #www2007 on Freenode
  281. # [23:34] <MikeSmith> irc.freenode.net
  282. # [23:34] <DanC_lap> the HTML WG has just made its 1st decision. woohoo.
  283. # [23:34] <mjs> hello DanC_lap
  284. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> session on "Future of HTML" at WWW 2007 is starting now
  285. # [23:35] * DanC_lap can't seem to join #www2007 on freenode; not sure why not yet
  286. # [23:35] <MikeSmith> we will be heckling on #www2007 on irc.freenode.net
  287. # [23:40] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  288. # [23:42] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  289. # [23:43] <zcorpan_> "As Dan is travelling this week, and we don't have issue tracking tools in place just yet, we suggest taking the rest of week off from HTML WG email discussion." so the list has been disabled today? that's why it's so quiet?
  290. # [23:46] <mjs> I think the quiet is voluntary
  291. # [23:46] <mjs> I was going to start a thread about issue tracking but I guess I'll wait
  292. # [23:47] <DanC_lap> there's some www-archive discussion of issue tracking
  293. # [23:47] <DanC_lap> if you think you can manage the thread, mjs, I don't mind if you take it to www-archive.
  294. # [23:47] <DanC_lap> I'm pretty much resigned that we'll use bugzilla
  295. # [23:49] <Philip`> I kind of like Trac because it looks less ugly than Bugzilla, but I have no idea if it'd work for the process here
  296. # [23:49] <mjs> I wouldn't mind bugzilla if it was feasible to hook it up to the mailing list in some way (so emails mentioning an issue number get linked to the issue automatically)
  297. # [23:49] <Philip`> (Does Bugzilla still have that horrible electron-microscope picture by default?)
  298. # [23:49] <mjs> I was just going to send an email on what I think we want out of issue tracking software
  299. # [23:50] <mjs> I don't actually have a specific solution in mind
  300. # [23:51] <hsivonen> Bugzilla sounds good
  301. # Session Close: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)