/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-10 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu May 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] * Parts: JacksonW (jackson@66.92.150.81)
  4. # [00:04] * Quits: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234) (Quit: |)
  5. # [00:04] <karl> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/
  6. # [00:04] <DanC_lap> mjs, our list archives support "find all public-html@w3.org messages with issue-234 in the subject". A link to that from each bugzilla issue seems straightforward. is that likely to suffice?
  7. # [00:05] <DanC_lap> I kinda like Trac too, though I haven't used it much. I have used roundup, and I strongly prefer it to bugzilla, but W3C systems team doen't support trac/roundup, yet, and I want something supported by our systems team.
  8. # [00:07] <mjs> DanC_lap: well, individual links for each message w/ subject would be nicer IMO, but it should be possible to make a script to do that periodically
  9. # [00:08] <DanC_lap> installing scripts happens pretty slowly with cross-WG tools.
  10. # [00:12] <mjs> well, a script wouldn't need anything more than public access to the archives (or a subscription to the list) and public access to bugzilla
  11. # [00:12] <mjs> though I guess running it on w3c servers would be more official
  12. # [00:13] <mjs> the search link would be a fine stopgap
  13. # [00:13] <mjs> mainly I'm wondering if we'll get volunteers to help manage issue tracking
  14. # [00:13] <DanC_lap> ah; yeah, something like that could run from somewhere else.
  15. # [00:16] * Quits: tH (r@87.102.22.235) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  16. # [00:19] * Parts: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  17. # [00:20] * Joins: pbannister (pbannister@70.181.71.135)
  18. # [00:25] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  19. # [00:28] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  20. # [00:30] * Joins: hober (ted@69.45.6.105)
  21. # [00:30] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  22. # [00:38] * Joins: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117)
  23. # [00:39] <ddailey> mjs: the thread on www-archive has discussed several considerations, including some of Hixie's and some of Dan's
  24. # [00:39] <mjs> ddailey: maybe I should read www-archive then
  25. # [00:40] <mjs> (but not right now)
  26. # [00:40] <ddailey> I've looked a wee bit into several software things, but didn't really find anything worth recommending
  27. # [00:41] <ddailey> I'll make sure you're included in the correspondence if you're interested.
  28. # [00:43] <ddailey> (but not right now) :)
  29. # [01:05] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.12.71) (Ping timeout)
  30. # [01:06] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  31. # [01:15] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  32. # [01:23] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  33. # [01:31] * Joins: sbuluf (xf@200.49.140.67)
  34. # [01:35] <ddailey> Hi Dan
  35. # [01:44] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  36. # [01:48] * Quits: schepers (schepers@72.29.239.177) (Connection reset by peer)
  37. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> log of "Future of HTML" session that was held at WWW 2007 today:
  38. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/46425AF0.5040909@dajobe.org
  39. # [01:51] <MikeSmith> thanks to Dave Beckett
  40. # [01:52] <Hixie> wow, it's weird seeing people like chris lilley saying what i've been saying for years
  41. # [01:53] <ddailey> MikeSmith: I had just noticed your posting on www-archive -- thanks.
  42. # [01:54] <ddailey> Hixie: this entire experience in the past few months must seem very surreal to you.
  43. # [01:55] <Hixie> a little, yes
  44. # [01:55] <ddailey> It has been a bit like falling down a rabbit hole to me.
  45. # [01:56] <ddailey> being at the center must be even odder
  46. # [01:56] <Hixie> to be perfectly honest i've been a little busy working on the actual spec, and haven't seen as much of the weirdness as you might imagine
  47. # [01:57] <Hixie> maciej and others have been doing a great job of dealing with the actual politics
  48. # [01:57] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  49. # [01:58] <DanC_lap> that's the way good engineering management works, right Hixie? get the various distractions out of the way so the engineers can just do their work.
  50. # [01:58] <Hixie> indeed
  51. # [01:58] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  52. # [01:59] <jdandrea> My favorite engineering managers always ran interference, so to speak. Set up the pins, get out of the way, and then I can bowl.
  53. # [02:04] <ddailey> Dan -- that InfoViz tool I mentioned for content analysis / issue tracking looks pretty darn powerful
  54. # [02:05] <DanC_lap> have you tried it out?
  55. # [02:06] <DanC_lap> i got the impression it's proprietary. so the output of it sounds handy, but the tool itself doesn't look like something I can ask other WG members to use
  56. # [02:06] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  57. # [02:07] <ddailey> I think that's true -- I haven't used it but it is apparently pretty easy
  58. # [02:07] <ddailey> The thing is made available really cheaply to government agencies so -- it could be that it is to nonprofits as well
  59. # [02:08] <ddailey> It might be better to just go with more conventional issue tracking and forget the social science flavored approach though
  60. # [02:10] <ddailey> it discovers similarity clusters pretty effectively from what I gather
  61. # [02:12] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  62. # [02:13] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  63. # [02:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
  64. # [02:26] * Quits: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117) (Ping timeout)
  65. # [02:36] * Joins: gavin__ (gavin@63.245.208.169)
  66. # [02:36] * Quits: gavin (gavin@63.245.208.169) (Connection reset by peer)
  67. # [02:39] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Ping timeout)
  68. # [02:40] * Quits: hober (ted@69.45.6.105) (Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs))
  69. # [02:41] * gavin__ is now known as gavin
  70. # [02:46] * Joins: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117)
  71. # [02:51] <karl> hmm there is something similar about QR code and HTML
  72. # [02:51] <karl> http://www.denso-wave.com/qrcode/qrgene1-e.html
  73. # [02:52] <karl> Reader have a capability to recover a certain number of errors.
  74. # [02:52] <karl> but the format for writing it is very strict.
  75. # [02:55] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122)
  76. # [02:58] <ddailey> Interesting -- sort of like 2D bar codes I gather
  77. # [02:59] <ddailey> At first as I was reading through the stuff I was thinking of Lindemeyer systems and parallel grammars and the like -- 2D languages
  78. # [03:00] * Quits: sbuluf (xf@200.49.140.67) (Ping timeout)
  79. # [03:00] * Joins: sbuluf (joe@200.49.140.80)
  80. # [03:01] <ddailey> karl:You're comparing the fault tolerance capabilities of QR and HTML?
  81. # [03:04] <ddailey> both I suppose share a property that the signal is likely to be noisy and the reader is likely to introject its own source of noise
  82. # [03:05] <Philip`> HTML documents don't have a different set of random errors every time you look at them, though
  83. # [03:05] <karl> ddailey: something like that. the fact that a reader (consumer of html) has to be prepared of recovering bad source of informations, but that the rules for writing have to be very strict as well.
  84. # [03:06] * Joins: inimino (inimino@75.71.88.233)
  85. # [03:06] <Philip`> The error correction on CDs is probably a more common example of the same idea
  86. # [03:06] <sbuluf> if new content can be clean, then at least proportions might vary in the future. else, no future, just past errors.
  87. # [03:07] <Philip`> ...but then you get people who intentionally write errors onto CDs and rely on the error-correction properties of the reader, as a form of copy protection
  88. # [03:07] <sbuluf> hence, w3c should output some best authoring practices document, imho
  89. # [03:09] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  90. # [03:15] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  91. # [03:17] <ddailey> that might be a good point of agreement for two sides of the support existing content debate -- I rather like it
  92. # [03:19] <ddailey> if the authors of the training and support materials said something like -- there is a <suchandsuch> tag that is included for the purpose of supporting legacy content
  93. # [03:19] <ddailey> but it is a really bad idea and here's why ....
  94. # [03:20] <ddailey> would that help?
  95. # [03:22] * Parts: pbannister (pbannister@70.181.71.135)
  96. # [03:23] <Philip`> Would that be better than not mentioning it at all?
  97. # [03:23] <karl> it is always better to justify when you make choices.
  98. # [03:24] <Philip`> Not many people know about <xmp> or <plaintext> because nobody talks about them - if the spec said they existed and described what they were for, but also described why you probably shouldn't use them, maybe people would be more likely to use them anyway
  99. # [03:25] <sbuluf> the spec is one thing, a best authoring practices document is another.
  100. # [03:25] <karl> sbuluf: there are two aspects of authoring. The code you <strong>have to write</strong> more than <str/ong> for example. And the best practices on what is one of the good ways of writing something. For example
  101. # [03:26] <karl> <cite><a href="ref">an author name</a></cite>
  102. # [03:26] <karl> or
  103. # [03:26] <karl> <a href="ref"><cite>an author name</cite></a>
  104. # [03:27] <zcorpan_> Philip`: indeed, not mentioning is a better way to prevent usage than saying "don't use this!"
  105. # [03:28] <karl> zcorpan_, Philip`: you are talking about virgin users here (assuming they read the code), but an old user might want to understand or know why xmp has gone.
  106. # [03:29] <sbuluf> rationale's could be done separately as well, i think
  107. # [03:30] <karl> an implementer of an authoring tool as well. I'm implementing an html5 authoring tool. what do I do
  108. # [03:30] <karl> 1. when reading a document which contains 'xmp'
  109. # [03:30] <karl> 2. when saving the document
  110. # [03:30] <sbuluf> such implementor needs to read the full spec
  111. # [03:31] <sbuluf> olda authors, can read best practices + rationale docs
  112. # [03:31] <sbuluf> virgin authors, just best practices doc
  113. # [03:32] * karl imagines a document with the title "Best Practices for Virgins"
  114. # [03:32] <sbuluf> hehehehe
  115. # [03:32] <ddailey> Am I allowed to say '++' in IRC without attaching a document?
  116. # [03:33] <karl> ddailey: read the best practices document for IRC :p
  117. # [03:33] * karl doesnt know the answer to ddailey :)
  118. # [03:34] <ddailey> both Dan on HTML-WG and Hixie on Whatwg have now fussed at my for inappropriate ++ ing -- I am trying to be very careful
  119. # [03:34] <Philip`> A line in IRC doesn't cause four hundred people's "you have mail" alerts to pop up, so I think that's acceptable :-)
  120. # [03:35] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Ping timeout)
  121. # [03:35] <Hixie> ddailey: depends on the conversation -- if it's a technical discussion, where the outcome is based on logic, facts, and arguments (as opposed to majority opinion), then ++ doesn't help
  122. # [03:36] <Hixie> ddailey: when it's a matter of opinions, though, or when it's just a conversation (not itended to be productive work) then it's fine :-)
  123. # [03:37] <ddailey> Hixie: I think I understand -- I still blame Dave Hyatt :)
  124. # [03:37] <Hixie> :-)
  125. # [03:38] * Joins: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132)
  126. # [03:38] <ddailey> sbuluf: I think you are on to something there
  127. # [03:38] <ddailey> .... the magic solution that keeps everybody happy
  128. # [03:39] <ddailey> what matters isn't the spec per se, it's the training stuff that accompanies it
  129. # [03:39] <karl> the magic solution would be to find people happy to write such documents ;)
  130. # [03:40] * Joins: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226)
  131. # [03:40] <sbuluf> some here have suggested all that be left to manual , primers, and books writers. i think in this case, is better if w3c does such docs. the potential for outrage is big.
  132. # [03:41] <ddailey> .-9s/my/me/
  133. # [03:43] <ddailey> Murray and others have been asked to start that process. I gather from what Murray wrote that he takes the task very seriously.
  134. # [03:43] <sbuluf> karl, there are a lot of standards people beggining to be angry. perhaps they would be willing to write them. even better if it is under some w3c umbrella, i think
  135. # [03:44] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  136. # [03:44] <karl> sbuluf: Yes I hope, but it's always a bit difficult to find people who commit to the task. QA IG was very open in terms of contributions and not many people contributed in the end.
  137. # [03:44] <karl> :) but yes if there is a good management and good will, it will happen
  138. # [03:44] <sbuluf> i think these ones have the motivation
  139. # [03:48] <ddailey> the categories of stakeholders that sbuluf suggests: implementers, old authors, new authors relates a bit to some discussion Karl and I were having about categories
  140. # [03:50] * Quits: zdenko (zdenko@84.255.203.169) (Quit: zdenko)
  141. # [03:51] * Parts: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.210)
  142. # [03:53] <ddailey> I am thinking of the usability testing interest group from html-wg tasks survey --
  143. # [03:54] <ddailey> I just tried pasting the URL into the Opera chat client and it was not happy.
  144. # [03:56] <ddailey> Next time Dan gets around to writing XSLT, maybe he can wedge the email addresses of these folks into the report as well.
  145. # [03:57] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122) (Ping timeout)
  146. # [03:58] <ddailey> My pedestrian approach of looking people up in the email logs and pasting their addresses into a spreadsheet felt really horse and buggy
  147. # [04:09] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122)
  148. # [04:15] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
  149. # [04:17] <karl> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1
  150. # [04:18] <karl> easier for people who don't have knowledge of CVSweb
  151. # [04:18] <marcos> Hixie, congrats! :D
  152. # [04:18] <ddailey> congrats indeed!
  153. # [04:19] <marcos> and to everyone else who has contributed in the WHATWG! :)
  154. # [04:20] <Philip`> Unfortunately it's huge enough that the "bwshare module" says "You have downloaded data too rapidly" and locks me out for ten minutes after just downloading the spec once :-)
  155. # [04:21] <karl> :D
  156. # [04:22] * Parts: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117)
  157. # [04:29] * karl has still a mail in his queue for ddailey about web survey
  158. # [04:31] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
  159. # [04:31] <karl> # 406 group participants,
  160. # [04:31] <karl> # 406 in good standing,
  161. # [04:31] <karl> # 56 participants from 20 organizations
  162. # [04:31] <karl> # 350 Invited Experts
  163. # [04:31] <karl> I guess roger post has generated another series of applications
  164. # [04:33] <sbuluf> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/ <--many wanted to join yesterday
  165. # [04:37] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  166. # [04:52] * Philip` wonders what it would take for someone to no longer be in good standing, given the nature of the HTML WG
  167. # [04:53] <mjs> Philip`: I think it's not possible
  168. # [04:58] <karl> I conccur not possible. except maybe for the staff, the chair and the editors
  169. # [04:58] <karl> as not really in bad standing, but not doing the work
  170. # [05:04] <karl> hehe I love the statement in the update REVISION 1383 of TextMate
  171. # [05:04] <karl> [NEW] HTML bundle: Allow embedded code in comments (you web guys are crazy!) -- ticket 20CC5FF4
  172. # [05:14] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Ping timeout)
  173. # [05:17] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  174. # [05:22] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  175. # [05:24] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  176. # [05:34] * Joins: mnx (marco@66.171.16.226)
  177. # [05:34] * Quits: mnx (marco@66.171.16.226) (Connection reset by peer)
  178. # [05:34] * Joins: Denise (Denise@66.171.16.226)
  179. # [05:36] * Denise is now known as mnx
  180. # [05:36] * mnx is now known as marco
  181. # [05:49] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.12.71)
  182. # [05:53] * Joins: bjoern (bjoern@84.56.252.191)
  183. # [05:53] * Parts: bjoern (bjoern@84.56.252.191)
  184. # [05:56] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122) (Ping timeout)
  185. # [05:57] * Quits: marco (Denise@66.171.16.226) (Quit: Leaving)
  186. # [06:00] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254) (Quit: jdandrea)
  187. # [06:01] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  188. # [06:03] <Hixie> hyatt: you should contact karl about getting your cvs access
  189. # [06:03] <Hixie> hyatt: or you can send me diffs if you want when you do edits
  190. # [06:04] <hyatt> ok
  191. # [06:05] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122)
  192. # [06:11] <Hixie> karl: fwiw, the pubrules checker doesn't work with the html5 spec. i've gotten the spec as close to pubrules-compliant as i can without the checker.
  193. # [06:11] <Hixie> let me know if there are ever any problems and i'll fix them
  194. # [06:11] <hyatt> what do i need for cvs access
  195. # [06:12] <hyatt> not the same as my w3c login i guess?
  196. # [06:12] <Hixie> karl is the guy who can hook you up, i believe
  197. # [06:12] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  198. # [06:27] <karl> back from lunch
  199. # [06:27] <karl> hyatt: I'm looking into your cvs accss now
  200. # [06:30] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  201. # [07:13] <karl> request made for dave account
  202. # [07:14] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  203. # [07:20] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  204. # [07:25] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  205. # [07:30] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  206. # [07:32] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  207. # [07:43] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122) (Ping timeout)
  208. # [07:59] * Quits: inimino (inimino@75.71.88.233) (Ping timeout)
  209. # [08:04] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.175.117)
  210. # [08:08] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Quit: Leaving)
  211. # [08:11] * Joins: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  212. # [08:23] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  213. # [08:25] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Quit: Leaving)
  214. # [08:52] * Joins: tH (r@87.102.22.235)
  215. # [08:54] * Joins: loic (loic@86.71.4.162)
  216. # [08:57] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@24.184.204.6)
  217. # [08:57] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@24.184.204.6) (Quit: :wq)
  218. # [09:02] <nickshanks> you guys really ought to distinguish between experts you invited and experts who invited themselves :)
  219. # [09:10] * karl prefers to read hex in lowercase than uppercase. But it is not very important.
  220. # [09:16] <mjs> gdb prints hex numbers in lowercase by default
  221. # [09:16] <mjs> so does the %x printf format
  222. # [09:16] * Lachy thinks hex should always be written uppercase
  223. # [09:21] * Joins: zdenko (zdenko@193.77.152.244)
  224. # [09:31] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.175.117) (Ping timeout)
  225. # [09:32] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  226. # [09:32] <karl> it might like coffee, with or without sugar ;) personal preferences
  227. # [09:33] <krijnh> * Lachy thinks hex should always be written uppercase <-- then write HEX ;)
  228. # [09:33] <krijnh> Mornin'
  229. # [09:33] <karl> hehe
  230. # [09:33] <krijnh> Anything interesting happened here?
  231. # [09:33] * krijnh is 525 mails behind :/
  232. # [09:34] <mjs> we have a spec
  233. # [09:34] <mjs> and editors
  234. # [09:34] <mjs> and a name for the spec
  235. # [09:34] <krijnh> Yeah, I saw that
  236. # [09:34] <karl> time to log off. take the train and tomorrow morning plane Tokyo to Paris. Still my luggage to prepare.
  237. # [09:34] <karl> see you
  238. # [09:34] <mjs> other than that, nothing interesting
  239. # [09:34] <krijnh> So I can mark all those mails as read?
  240. # [09:34] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  241. # [09:35] <krijnh> I tried keeping up in the bus this week, but when I plugged in my LAN cable on arrival, 5 times more were coming in..
  242. # [09:37] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  243. # [09:53] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122)
  244. # [09:58] <anne> how hex is written down is very different from what an attribute returns, imo
  245. # [09:58] <anne> as it's unlikely you'll ever _read_ that
  246. # [10:17] <anne> I think we should also overtake w3.org/TR/html/
  247. # [10:17] <anne> while we're at it :)
  248. # [10:18] <mjs> hah
  249. # [10:18] <mjs> I think that would require publication as FPWD
  250. # [10:20] <anne> I like the slides from Chris Lilley
  251. # [10:20] <anne> who would have thought that
  252. # [10:20] <mjs> I'm pleased to see those slides from him
  253. # [10:21] <mjs> I am surprised at what http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ points to
  254. # [10:22] <anne> XHTML 1.0 has been named as HTML5 back in the days by some people
  255. # [10:22] <anne> (Not that I was around, I read that in archives)
  256. # [10:22] <mjs> it's weird for it to be XHTML 1.0 and not either HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.1
  257. # [10:24] <Dashiva> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ still points to XHTML
  258. # [10:24] <Dashiva> (and html5 is still 404)
  259. # [10:25] <anne> correct
  260. # [10:25] <mjs> I think it needs to be published as a Working Draft to appear under the TR namespace
  261. # [10:26] <anne> right
  262. # [10:27] <anne> guess we should also update http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml in due course (and remove the trailing slash somehow)
  263. # [10:27] <mjs> are we going to get into a fight over that with the xhtml2 wg?
  264. # [10:28] <anne> I suppose at some point we will
  265. # [10:28] <anne> Not that we really have to update it, but because someone points out we should, etc.
  266. # [10:29] <mjs> whoah, the xhtml2wg has a livejournal?
  267. # [10:31] <anne> no, that's people tracking the blogs from me and hixie and lachy or something
  268. # [10:31] <mjs> weird
  269. # [10:32] <mjs> (I did a technorati search for "html5")
  270. # [10:32] <anne> might be some kind of joke a few people share
  271. # [10:35] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  272. # [10:50] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  273. # [11:11] * Quits: jmb (jmb@81.86.70.47) (Ping timeout)
  274. # [11:17] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Client exited)
  275. # [11:18] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  276. # [11:30] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@133.27.59.122) (Ping timeout)
  277. # [11:39] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  278. # [11:40] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.43.116)
  279. # [11:44] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  280. # [11:46] * Joins: myakura (myakura@125.194.247.196)
  281. # [11:53] * Joins: jmb (jmb@81.86.70.47)
  282. # [12:15] * Quits: zdenko (zdenko@193.77.152.244) (Quit: Ajl bi bak)
  283. # [12:17] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.43.116) (Ping timeout)
  284. # [12:21] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Ping timeout)
  285. # [12:22] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  286. # [12:27] * Quits: wilhelm (wilhelm@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  287. # [12:27] * Joins: wilhelm (wilhelm@129.241.93.37)
  288. # [12:27] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.5) (Ping timeout)
  289. # [12:27] * Joins: Dashimon (noone@129.241.151.35)
  290. # [12:27] * Quits: Dashiva (noone@129.241.151.35) (Ping timeout)
  291. # [12:27] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  292. # [12:27] * Quits: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37) (Ping timeout)
  293. # [12:27] * Joins: xover (xover@193.157.66.5)
  294. # [12:27] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  295. # [12:43] * Quits: sbuluf (joe@200.49.140.80) (Ping timeout)
  296. # [12:46] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.5)
  297. # [12:56] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Ping timeout)
  298. # [12:59] * Joins: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132)
  299. # [13:27] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Ping timeout)
  300. # [13:34] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  301. # [13:43] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Ping timeout)
  302. # [13:45] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  303. # [13:51] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  304. # [14:08] * Joins: zdenko (zdenko@193.77.152.244)
  305. # [14:20] * Joins: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254)
  306. # [14:24] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161) (Quit: hyatt)
  307. # [14:34] * Joins: briansuda (briansuda@130.208.155.131)
  308. # [14:42] * Quits: AGraf_ (Ashe@213.47.199.86) (Quit: Quit)
  309. # [14:42] * Joins: AGraf (Ashe@213.47.199.86)
  310. # [15:22] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  311. # [15:27] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  312. # [15:28] <Dashiva> After all the talk about consensus, I'm surprised Gregory is worried about ballott stuffing
  313. # [15:29] <anne> There will be a browser day May 15, somewhere XTech venue, 9AM - 5PM, for developers, browser makers, journalists and whatnots. More details should become available later today or so.
  314. # [15:33] <anne> In other news, the Forms WG had some more discussion on XForms Transitional: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007May/att-0049/20070509.html#topic6
  315. # [15:36] <anne> The browser day mentioned above doesn't require you to attend XTech. There are no entrance costs involved.
  316. # [15:36] <anne> (Apart from travel costs and such, of course.)
  317. # [15:40] <Lachy> heh, it'll be interesting to see if they continue to evolve XFT
  318. # [16:09] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  319. # [16:18] * anne explains how voting works on public-html
  320. # [16:18] * anne feels bad for citing the W3C Process document in the end, but it seemed appropriate
  321. # [16:21] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254) (Quit: ciao)
  322. # [16:39] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  323. # [16:39] <Sander> "As Dan is travelling this week, and we don't have issue tracking tools in place just yet, we suggest taking the rest of week off from HTML WG email discussion." - ooh, I might actually catch up on the list, then!
  324. # [16:40] <anne> heh, who posted that?
  325. # [16:41] <hasather> anne: Dan
  326. # [16:41] <Sander> Dan+Chris in "results of HTML 5 text, editor, name questions"
  327. # [16:41] <anne> oh ok
  328. # [16:41] * Sander assumes Chris wrote it, due to the third-person Dan
  329. # [16:42] * anne didn't fully read that e-mail
  330. # [16:44] <Dashiva> Joint chairs writing joint mails makes sense, doesn't it?
  331. # [16:44] <anne> maybe in your world
  332. # [16:44] <Dashiva> Has Chris been wearing his chair hat yet, apart from that mail?
  333. # [16:46] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  334. # [16:47] <anne> mostly to put it off :p
  335. # [16:47] <Philip`> I assumed Dan wrote it, because he's been doing most of the visible chairing so far, but signed it from both chairs because they both agreed on the chairing decisions, then talked about himself in the third person else it wouldn't be obvious who he was talking about. At least that version of events makes the most sense to me :-)
  336. # [16:48] <anne> lets hope there isn't much discussion next week either
  337. # [16:48] * anne is in Paris and has better things to do than reading e-mail :)
  338. # [16:49] * anne will be in Paris*
  339. # [16:52] * Quits: zdenko (zdenko@193.77.152.244) (Quit: zdenko)
  340. # [16:53] * Joins: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254)
  341. # [16:56] * Joins: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.146.31)
  342. # [16:58] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  343. # [17:00] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  344. # [17:00] <anne> MikeSmith, hey, am I expected to do a presentation next week during the panel?
  345. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> anne - no. will probably just purely Q&A panel/roundtable
  346. # [17:01] <anne> cool
  347. # [17:01] <MikeSmith> btw, want to have hsivonen on panel also if possible
  348. # [17:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: panel?
  349. # [17:09] <anne> here's that blog announcement: http://my.opera.com/dstorey/blog/show.dml/993551
  350. # [17:09] <anne> http://www.molly.com/2007/05/10/blue-sky-web-browser-standards-and-interop-summit-xtech-paris/
  351. # [17:12] <hsivonen> I'll be landing at CDG around lunch time. I hope the panel isn't in the morning
  352. # [17:13] <anne> That panel is on Wednesday
  353. # [17:13] <anne> During the actual conference
  354. # [17:13] <anne> 11AM iirc
  355. # [17:14] <hsivonen> oh
  356. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> yeah, I know nothing about the thing that Molly organized on May 15th
  357. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> That is something she put together at the last minute
  358. # [17:16] <MikeSmith> and which conflicts with other presentations that are going on at XTech that day
  359. # [17:17] <anne> there's no XTech that day
  360. # [17:17] <anne> just tutorials
  361. # [17:17] <MikeSmith> Ubiquitous Web Apps thing is May 15
  362. # [17:17] <anne> yeah well
  363. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> http://2007.xtech.org:80/public/schedule/topic/7
  364. # [17:18] <anne> i mean, there are already four different tracks that day
  365. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> "yeah well", what?
  366. # [17:18] <anne> adding another one shouldn't hurt
  367. # [17:18] <MikeSmith> whatever
  368. # [17:18] <anne> and having a browser day is fun :)
  369. # [17:19] <anne> MikeSmith, upset?
  370. # [17:20] <MikeSmith> anne - what do you think? I'd really like to go to the browser thing, but I can't very well do that since Molly decided to schedule it for a day when we already had this other stuff scheduled for 6 months ago and which I'm already committed to particpating in
  371. # [17:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - please plan on being on the panel on Thursday along with anne if you can
  372. # [17:22] <anne> oh, it's on Thursday? ok
  373. # [17:22] <MikeSmith> yeah, thursday
  374. # [17:22] <anne> MikeSmith, fair enough
  375. # [17:22] * anne didn't know MikeSmith would be participating in ubiweb
  376. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> anyway, I really doubt this ubiweb day is going to be very well attended at all now
  377. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> anne - do you know who from mozilla is going to be at the browser thing?
  378. # [17:24] <anne> no
  379. # [17:25] <MikeSmith> as far as I know from talking to dbaron, nobody from Mozilla proper is planning to be at XTech
  380. # [17:29] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  381. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, anne - Future of HTML session is actually on Wednesday at 11
  382. # [17:29] <MikeSmith> http://2007.xtech.org:80/public/schedule/detail/187
  383. # [17:30] <anne> so I was right, ok :)
  384. # [17:34] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  385. # [17:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok.I'll attend
  386. # [17:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - thanks
  387. # [17:51] * Quits: briansuda (briansuda@130.208.155.131) (Quit: briansuda)
  388. # [18:01] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  389. # [18:04] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Ping timeout)
  390. # [18:16] * Joins: cying (cying@75.41.253.45)
  391. # [18:16] <cying> hi everyone!
  392. # [18:16] <anne> hi
  393. # [18:16] <cying> i'm just doing a sanity check, did anyone receive mail regarding "Chained Classnames" ?
  394. # [18:16] <cying> on public-html@w3.org
  395. # [18:16] <anne> yeah
  396. # [18:16] <cying> ok, cool
  397. # [18:17] <anne> in general, you can check http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/latest to see whether your e-mail made it to the list
  398. # [18:17] <cying> anne: ah ha! thanks Anne!
  399. # [18:19] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  400. # [18:19] <MikeSmith> cying - are you Charles Ying of FilmLoop?
  401. # [18:20] <cying> MikeSmith: yes although i left awhile ago
  402. # [18:20] <MikeSmith> ah, OK. You worked for Openwave at one time also?
  403. # [18:20] * MikeSmith used to work at Openwave ...
  404. # [18:21] <cying> MikeSmith: yep, i did
  405. # [18:21] <cying> MikeSmith: your name sounds familiar but i can't place it ....
  406. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> cool
  407. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> I worked for Openwave in Tokyo
  408. # [18:21] <cying> MikeSmith: ahhhh
  409. # [18:21] <MikeSmith> for Shinya Matsuoaka, Morioka-san
  410. # [18:22] <MikeSmith> for KDDI and JPhone
  411. # [18:22] <cying> ah!
  412. # [18:22] <cying> i worked on KDDI Tucson and V7
  413. # [18:23] <MikeSmith> I guess you heard the news that KDDI will finally be using V7
  414. # [18:23] <cying> and some perf work for Jphone
  415. # [18:23] <cying> no, i didn't
  416. # [18:23] <cying> wow
  417. # [18:23] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.146.31) (Quit: Quitting!)
  418. # [18:23] <cying> are you still at OPWV?
  419. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> so still two browsers on all KDDI/Au handsets: Opera Mobile and Openwave (now v7)
  420. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> no, I work for W3C now
  421. # [18:24] <cying> ah, very cool
  422. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> after working for Opera for a while
  423. # [18:24] <cying> ah
  424. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> plus I got a gigolo business on the side
  425. # [18:24] <cying> do you know Brent Mori then?
  426. # [18:24] <MikeSmith> I know Brent very will
  427. # [18:24] <cying> ah ha!
  428. # [18:25] <cying> you'll have to say hi for me
  429. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Brent is a close friend of mine
  430. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> will do
  431. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> Brent in country manager for Opera Japan
  432. # [18:25] <MikeSmith> s/Brent in/Brent is/
  433. # [18:25] <cying> very cool, Brent and I are good buddies (when he used to come out here or I would go visit Tokyo)
  434. # [18:26] <cying> he'll probably refer to me as "chucky"
  435. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> OK
  436. # [18:26] <cying> just preparing you ;)
  437. # [18:26] <cying> brb
  438. # [18:33] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  439. # [18:36] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  440. # [18:37] <cying> alrighty, time to do some real work :)
  441. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> I'm in interesting presentation at WWW 2007 -
  442. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> Robust Web Page Segmentation for Mobile Terminal Using Content-Distances and Page Layout Information
  443. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> http://www2007.org/papers/paper752.pdf
  444. # [18:43] <MikeSmith> see section 5
  445. # [18:44] <MikeSmith> and 5.2 - "Layout-based segmentation algorithm"
  446. # [18:47] <cying> neat
  447. # [18:49] <MikeSmith> btw, W3C is organizing a conference on "Mobile Ajax" to take place in SF Bay Area on September 28 (to follow AjaxWorld 2007 that week, as well as an OpenAjax Alliance f2f on Sept. 27)
  448. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> s/organizing a conference/organizing a workshop/
  449. # [18:51] <cying> you must know Jon Ferraiolo too?
  450. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> yep
  451. # [18:51] <cying> ha!
  452. # [18:51] <cying> what a small world
  453. # [18:51] <MikeSmith> Jon is one of the chairs for that workshop
  454. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> along with Dan Appelquist from Vodafone
  455. # [18:52] <cying> ahh
  456. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> Christian Sejersen from Openwave will hopefully be on the program committee for that
  457. # [18:54] <cying> cool
  458. # [18:55] <cying> i wrote a whitepaper a long time ago pre-CDF intended for a mobile web app environment
  459. # [18:55] <cying> is there a topic or agenda page for the workshop?
  460. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> not yet. I'm the one who needs to write it up. Probably won't get done until some time next week or later
  461. # [18:57] <cying> any thoughts or specific topics?
  462. # [18:57] <MikeSmith> not really, but would welcome some if you have any
  463. # [18:58] <MikeSmith> my e-mail address is in my /whois
  464. # [18:59] <cying> hmmm
  465. # [18:59] <cying> it doesn't seem to say... i need a better mail client
  466. # [18:59] <cying> er irc client
  467. # [18:59] <cying> oh there it is
  468. # [19:01] <cying> i guess i have a hard time grasping the current state of the art in mobile AJAX
  469. # [19:02] <cying> i know nokia has some widget platform, opera has their own ajax initiative, and apple has full on Safari on mobile
  470. # [19:02] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176)
  471. # [19:02] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: :wq)
  472. # [19:02] <cying> then you have i-mode, vodafone, and the CDF work going on
  473. # [19:05] <MikeSmith> I would have preferred to just have had it be a workshop on "Web applications in mobile browsers"
  474. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> but I guess "Ajax" has more marketing value (as far as getting people to attend)
  475. # [19:06] <cying> who would you like to attend?
  476. # [19:06] <cying> and what would you like them to accomplish?
  477. # [19:07] <cying> maybe we should go out of this room ;)
  478. # [19:15] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  479. # [19:17] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242)
  480. # [19:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  481. # [19:24] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Client exited)
  482. # [19:27] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.5) (Ping timeout)
  483. # [19:31] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  484. # [19:36] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  485. # [19:41] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  486. # [19:47] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.42.208)
  487. # [19:52] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  488. # [19:52] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  489. # [20:01] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  490. # [20:02] * Joins: zdenko (zdenko@84.255.203.169)
  491. # [20:05] * Quits: tH (r@87.102.22.235) (Ping timeout)
  492. # [20:09] * Quits: myakura (myakura@125.194.247.196) (Quit: Leaving...)
  493. # [20:13] * Joins: tH (r@87.102.22.235)
  494. # [20:15] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  495. # [20:17] * Quits: cying (cying@75.41.253.45) (Ping timeout)
  496. # [20:18] * Joins: cying (cying@75.18.223.137)
  497. # [20:56] * Joins: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183)
  498. # [20:59] * Quits: loic (loic@86.71.4.162) (Quit: hoopa rules)
  499. # [21:07] * Quits: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183) (Quit: timblair)
  500. # [21:38] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  501. # [21:42] * Joins: schepers (schepers@72.29.239.177)
  502. # [21:47] <MikeSmith> schepers - #www2007 on irc.freenode.net (for heckling)
  503. # [21:52] * Joins: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183)
  504. # [21:53] * MikeSmith is wondering if cying is still around ...
  505. # [21:53] <MikeSmith> watching demo of SoonR right now (demo'ed directly from N93 handset)
  506. # [21:56] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  507. # [21:59] * Joins: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  508. # [22:21] <cying> back
  509. # [22:21] <cying> MikeSmith: ping me whenever, i'm just doing other work
  510. # [22:22] * Joins: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  511. # [22:23] * Quits: MikeSmith^ (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
  512. # [22:24] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  513. # [22:30] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  514. # [22:32] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  515. # [22:45] <MikeSmith> I wish people would post "anyone heavily involved in this WG should read and keep in mind" stuff to www-html or somewhere instead
  516. # [22:46] <cying> oh?
  517. # [22:46] * Joins: frippz (fredrikfro@193.11.209.47)
  518. # [22:46] <cying> meaning stuff that is generally applicable to the W3C WGs as a whole?
  519. # [22:48] <MikeSmith> I mean the WG list should be for technical discussion of the spec
  520. # [22:48] <zcorpan_> opera thought that email was spam :)
  521. # [22:52] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  522. # [22:57] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161) (Client exited)
  523. # [22:58] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  524. # [23:01] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  525. # [23:06] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  526. # [23:12] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  527. # [23:14] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Get thee behind me, satan.)
  528. # [23:17] * Joins: laplink (link@212.33.131.105)
  529. # [23:18] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  530. # [23:27] * Quits: schepers (schepers@72.29.239.177) (Quit: Free at last!)
  531. # [23:32] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.245.248.74)
  532. # [23:32] * Quits: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183) (Quit: timblair)
  533. # [23:36] * Quits: mjs (mjs@66.245.248.74) (Quit: mjs)
  534. # [23:38] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.245.248.74)
  535. # [23:40] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  536. # [23:43] * Quits: mjs (mjs@66.245.248.74) (Ping timeout)
  537. # [23:44] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254) (Quit: ciao)
  538. # [23:45] * Joins: schepers (schepers@72.29.239.177)
  539. # [23:45] * Joins: laplink_ (link@212.33.131.105)
  540. # [23:46] * Quits: laplink (link@212.33.131.105) (Ping timeout)
  541. # [23:46] * laplink_ is now known as laplink
  542. # [23:57] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  543. # [23:58] * Joins: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254)
  544. # Session Close: Fri May 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)