/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-12 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Sat May 12 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.104.175)
  4. # [00:08] * Quits: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183) (Quit: timblair)
  5. # [00:27] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.104.175) (Quit: hyatt)
  6. # [00:30] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@142.131.37.98) (Ping timeout)
  7. # [00:39] * Quits: h3h (bfults@66.162.32.234) (Quit: |)
  8. # [00:47] * Parts: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  9. # [00:53] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@72.29.239.177)
  10. # [00:53] <dbaron> hsivonen, yeah http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/IG/ert/iso639.htm uses be for both Breton and Byelorussian. That seems bad...
  11. # [00:53] <dbaron> hsivonen, but the list at the bottom says be is Byelorussian
  12. # [00:56] <hsivonen> dbaron: yes, that was the list I was looking at first. IANA has be as only Belarusian
  13. # [00:56] <dbaron> yep
  14. # [00:56] <dbaron> Breton is br
  15. # [01:00] * Joins: tH_ (r@83.100.174.14)
  16. # [01:00] * Quits: tH (r@87.102.22.235) (Ping timeout)
  17. # [01:00] * tH_ is now known as tH
  18. # [01:08] * Parts: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  19. # [01:09] * Quits: tH (r@83.100.174.14) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  20. # [01:09] * Joins: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  21. # [01:19] * Parts: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  22. # [01:22] * Parts: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.21)
  23. # [01:23] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.21)
  24. # [01:27] * Quits: DanC_lap (connolly@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  25. # [01:28] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  26. # [01:34] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Ping timeout)
  27. # [01:35] * Joins: sbuluf (mdexihq@200.49.140.43)
  28. # [01:37] * Joins: asbjornu (asbjorn@84.48.116.134)
  29. # [01:51] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@72.29.239.177) (Quit: kingryan)
  30. # [01:59] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@142.131.37.98)
  31. # [02:06] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.104.175)
  32. # [02:18] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  33. # [02:23] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  34. # [02:31] * Parts: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.104.175)
  35. # [02:36] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  36. # [02:44] * Quits: zdenko_ (zdenko@84.255.203.169) (Quit: zdenko_)
  37. # [02:54] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.105.149) (Quit: mjs)
  38. # [02:54] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254) (Quit: Leaving)
  39. # [03:43] * Joins: kingryan_ (rking3@142.131.37.98)
  40. # [03:43] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@142.131.37.98) (Connection reset by peer)
  41. # [03:46] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  42. # [03:53] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.40.21) (Ping timeout)
  43. # [04:05] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  44. # [05:28] * Quits: kingryan_ (rking3@142.131.37.98) (Quit: kingryan_)
  45. # [05:44] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  46. # [05:49] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  47. # [06:09] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  48. # [06:16] * Quits: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254) (Quit: jdandrea)
  49. # [06:25] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.48.129)
  50. # [06:35] * Quits: sbuluf (mdexihq@200.49.140.43) (Ping timeout)
  51. # [06:36] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  52. # [06:40] * Joins: sbuluf (xqlv@200.49.140.182)
  53. # [06:47] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235)
  54. # [07:11] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  55. # [07:52] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  56. # [07:57] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  57. # [08:00] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235) (Quit: See you...)
  58. # [08:10] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235)
  59. # [08:36] <Zeros> hyatt, latest nightly crashes with JS disabled every time you start it :/
  60. # [08:36] <Zeros> that wasn't fun to go through and reduce the entire plist to find what key caused it
  61. # [08:37] <hyatt> Zeros: :(
  62. # [08:37] <hyatt> Zeros: smack maciej
  63. # [08:37] <hyatt> Zeros: i don't know if it's his fault, but it's fun to smack him anyway
  64. # [08:37] <Zeros> oh okay
  65. # [08:37] <Zeros> :p
  66. # [08:48] <hyatt> Zeros: i'm busy fixing our irc client colloquy
  67. # [08:48] <hyatt> which uses webkit
  68. # [08:49] <hyatt> and now can't display anything
  69. # [08:49] <hyatt> because of an insane CSS table thing that only gran paradiso alpha 4 (and now webkit with my change) pass
  70. # [08:49] <hyatt> heh
  71. # [08:49] <hyatt> ffx 2 fails it for the same reason it fails acid2
  72. # [08:49] <Zeros> crazy
  73. # [08:49] <Zeros> So this worked in Safari but it's broken now in Webkit?
  74. # [08:50] <mjs> Zeros: it might be my fault
  75. # [08:50] <Zeros> mjs, ticket 13691
  76. # [08:51] <Zeros> Are there tests in the suite for when JS is disabled?
  77. # [08:56] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  78. # [08:57] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235) (Ping timeout)
  79. # [08:59] <dbaron> hyatt, was this to do with vertical alignment?
  80. # [08:59] <hyatt> dbaron: yes
  81. # [08:59] <dbaron> bottom row of the test?
  82. # [08:59] <hyatt> dbaron: yes
  83. # [08:59] <dbaron> that was annoying
  84. # [09:00] <hyatt> dbaron: yeah, since i don't think that's a standard anywhere
  85. # [09:00] <hyatt> dbaron: here's the test case i made.
  86. # [09:00] <dbaron> still, where were you when Hixie talked the CSS WG into changing CSS2.1 to match the Acid2 test, to my annoyance? :-P
  87. # [09:00] <hyatt> http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=14503
  88. # [09:00] <hyatt> dbaron: safari 2 and ffx 2 match on this test http://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=14503 (and both "fail")
  89. # [09:01] <hyatt> webkit (with my checkin) and gran paradiso alpha 4 "pass" the test
  90. # [09:01] <dbaron> hrm, I don't think I'm going to analyze that in my head
  91. # [09:01] <hyatt> :)
  92. # [09:02] <hyatt> did anyone else watch chris messina ramble about mozilla for 50 minutes?
  93. # [09:02] * hyatt got through about 10 minutes before he got boed
  94. # [09:02] <hyatt> bored
  95. # [09:02] * dbaron wonders if it was fixed by bernd's patch for the bottom row of acid2 or my patch to fix vertical alignment in preparation for inline-block
  96. # [09:02] <dbaron> hyatt, there are some responses to it on planet.m.o
  97. # [09:03] <hyatt> people don't get it.
  98. # [09:03] <hyatt> XUL is an evolutionary dead end
  99. # [09:03] <hyatt> the Web is the platform
  100. # [09:03] <hyatt> not XUL
  101. # [09:03] <hyatt> XUL's legacy should be to feed back the stuff that's good about it into HTML and CSS
  102. # [09:04] <hyatt> shaver's post was great
  103. # [09:04] <hyatt> on his blog
  104. # [09:06] <dbaron> do I hear a volunteer for writing the part of the flexbox spec explaining how the XUL box model interacts with the CSS box model? :-P
  105. # [09:07] * Joins: Julia (kotta@87.228.148.119)
  106. # [09:08] <Zeros> XUL would need much much better documentation to get wide spread usage
  107. # [09:08] <Julia> Hey mates , i have a problem
  108. # [09:08] <hyatt> dbaron: heh i mostly have worked out how it works
  109. # [09:08] <dbaron> works, or should work?
  110. # [09:08] <hyatt> should work
  111. # [09:09] <hyatt> since it's unlike how either webkit or xul currently work
  112. # [09:09] <Julia> Hello
  113. # [09:09] <hyatt> the #1 issue being how muddled eric vaughan was about what css min-width and max-width actually meant
  114. # [09:09] <mjs> Zeros: no
  115. # [09:10] <Zeros> mjs, You don't think so?
  116. # [09:10] <hyatt> dbaron: oh, mitchell has responded
  117. # [09:10] <hyatt> dbaron: on planet.m.o
  118. # [09:10] <mjs> Zeros: there are no automated tests in Safari's test suite for JS disabled
  119. # [09:11] <Zeros> oh okay
  120. # [09:11] <Zeros> I think you guys need some
  121. # [09:11] <mjs> Zeros: my patch actually broke a number of things that are not covered by the test suite
  122. # [09:11] <Zeros> Inspector crashes without JS, now the browser does too :p
  123. # [09:11] <mjs> we keep track of what is currently untestable and try to update the regression test tool periodically
  124. # [09:11] <Zeros> ah cool
  125. # [09:12] <mjs> (detailed discussion of our regression tests may be more on-topic for freenode #webkit than here...)
  126. # [09:12] <hyatt> it would be cool if DRT could poke prefs
  127. # [09:12] <hyatt> as you run
  128. # [09:13] <hyatt> poke prefs from JS
  129. # [09:13] <hyatt> lol but if you poke a pref to turn off js
  130. # [09:13] <hyatt> ummm
  131. # [09:13] <Julia> Hello
  132. # [09:13] <hyatt> hmmm
  133. # [09:13] <hyatt> hello
  134. # [09:14] <Julia> Can i ask my question now ?
  135. # [09:14] <hyatt> sure
  136. # [09:15] <dbaron> Julia, don't ask to ask, just ask
  137. # [09:15] <Julia> Thanks. I want to know how should I use the keywords in meta tags.
  138. # [09:17] <Julia> This is an example: <meta name="keywords" content="bla,ha,lol" />
  139. # [09:17] <Julia> or <meta name="keywords" content="bla ha lol" />
  140. # [09:18] <Julia> I mean using space between the words or comma or point or something else
  141. # [09:18] <Hixie> your best bet is not to use <meta name="keywords"> at all
  142. # [09:18] <Hixie> search engines don't use them anymore these days
  143. # [09:18] <Hixie> (at least, google doesn't)
  144. # [09:18] <Julia> They don't ?
  145. # [09:18] <Hixie> nope
  146. # [09:18] <Julia> Good
  147. # [09:19] <Julia> But how are the other people find my page ?
  148. # [09:19] <Hixie> search engines will scan everything on your page
  149. # [09:20] <Zeros> Some site's search engines use them for tagging pages I think
  150. # [09:21] <Julia> What should i do ? Use keywords or not ?
  151. # [09:21] <Hixie> i would recommend not using them
  152. # [09:21] <Hixie> at least not for sites on th eweb
  153. # [09:22] <Hixie> maybe internal sites with their own internal search systems might need it
  154. # [09:22] <Hixie> but that's not a web site question then :-)
  155. # [09:22] <Zeros> I wish I could convince my coworker not to use them. He swears having them makes your page better for search engines.
  156. # [09:22] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  157. # [09:22] <Zeros> He's also convinced that using that submission form for google gets your page indexed faster when you make changes
  158. # [09:22] <Hixie> well, i don't know about msn search or yahoo or ask
  159. # [09:22] <Hixie> but i guarentee you that google doesn't use the meta keywords
  160. # [09:24] <mjs> does google penalize sites with seemingly misleading or scattershot meta keywords?
  161. # [09:24] <Hixie> i think we just ignore them completely, but it's possible we use it as part of our spam site heuristics, i couldn't say
  162. # [09:25] <anne> heh, HTML WG is closed down for the week
  163. # [09:25] <Zeros> thankfully
  164. # [09:25] <Zeros> I can't keep up with the amount of email on the list
  165. # [09:27] <Zeros> 160 on May 1st, nice.
  166. # [09:30] <anne> Jonas on public-webapi: "Wow, we suck." :)
  167. # [09:37] <dbaron> hyatt, fwiw, I implemented http://dbaron.org/css/intrinsic/#new-width-values on Mozilla trunk
  168. # [09:38] <hyatt> cool
  169. # [09:39] <hyatt> i added intrinsic and min-intrinsic to webkit but only for flexboxes
  170. # [09:39] <hyatt> but i could pretty easily implement them for everything
  171. # [09:39] * Joins: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183)
  172. # [09:39] <Zeros> How is fill different than auto?
  173. # [09:39] <dbaron> Zeros, for normal flow blocks, it's not
  174. # [09:39] <dbaron> Zeros, it differs for things that shrink-wrap by default
  175. # [09:40] <hyatt> fill is interesting when you wouldn't normally have done it
  176. # [09:40] <hyatt> like floats/positioning/inline-blocks
  177. # [09:40] <dbaron> or tables
  178. # [09:40] <Zeros> hmm
  179. # [09:40] <hyatt> dbaron: i just made a change to webkit recently that causes us to compute min-intrinsic and intrinisc only when needed
  180. # [09:40] <hyatt> unfortunately tables always need them :)
  181. # [09:41] <hyatt> but if you go tableless, it was actually a nice little boost
  182. # [09:41] <dbaron> I wrote it that way on the reflow branch
  183. # [09:41] <Julia> Tables with CSS are used for layout ?
  184. # [09:41] <dbaron> and yes, tables do always need them
  185. # [09:41] <Zeros> dbaron, what's the behavior for intrinsic and min-intrinsic?
  186. # [09:41] <hyatt> it's so unfortunate that the table model was designed such that specified widths are only guidelines
  187. # [09:41] <hyatt> (the auto table layout model)
  188. # [09:42] <dbaron> hyatt, well, not entirely, since all the cells in a column have to have the same width, so there are potential contradictions pretty much built in
  189. # [09:42] <hyatt> that the min intrinsic width has to be computed even if a width is explicitly specified on a cell :(
  190. # [09:42] <dbaron> oh, that
  191. # [09:43] <anne> isn't that the mistake of early implementations?
  192. # [09:43] * Quits: timblair (timblair@87.74.129.183) (Quit: timblair)
  193. # [09:43] <hyatt> anne: well, it's a mistake netscape and winie made everywhere (even for blocks)
  194. # [09:43] <hyatt> that "width" is more like "min-width" :(
  195. # [09:44] <dbaron> Zeros, read the "Terminology" section near the top
  196. # [09:45] <Zeros> oh okay
  197. # [09:45] <anne> hyatt, winie fixed it for blocks now I suppose... good that we got rid of it I suppose :)
  198. # [09:46] <anne> for blocks, that is
  199. # [09:46] <anne> unfortunately not for tables
  200. # [09:46] <hyatt> tables are such a nightmare
  201. # [09:46] <hyatt> i hate fixing bugs in table code
  202. # [09:46] <hyatt> i have to pretty much just rely on tests
  203. # [09:47] <anne> hopefully dbaron's spec will one day be finished :)
  204. # [09:47] <Zeros> CSS3 should make other parts equally as complicated
  205. # [09:47] <Zeros> floating to the end of the line and the start, bottom top and center
  206. # [09:53] * Joins: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
  207. # [09:59] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  208. # [10:04] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  209. # [10:14] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: g'night)
  210. # [10:18] * Joins: kazuhito (kazuhito@210.232.34.13)
  211. # [10:38] * Quits: sbuluf (xqlv@200.49.140.182) (Ping timeout)
  212. # [10:49] * Joins: sbuluf (cauuzz@200.49.140.206)
  213. # [10:54] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  214. # [11:04] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Quit: ...and I'm gone.)
  215. # [11:09] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@69.140.48.129) (Quit: Leaving)
  216. # [11:11] * Joins: loic (loic@86.71.4.162)
  217. # [11:44] * Parts: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  218. # [11:48] * Quits: Julia (kotta@87.228.148.119) (Quit: Julia)
  219. # [11:49] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  220. # [11:53] <hyatt> Hixie: ping
  221. # [11:53] <hyatt> Hixie: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12740 is pretty interesting.
  222. # [11:53] <hyatt> Hixie: html5 parsing questions raised.
  223. # [11:55] <mjs> I wonder what IE does
  224. # [11:55] <mjs> (probably makes a non-tree DOM)
  225. # [11:55] * Joins: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22)
  226. # [11:57] <hyatt> mjs: i wrote what we do so understand it well
  227. # [11:57] <hyatt> mjs: what we do is super-sensible imo
  228. # [11:57] <hyatt> mjs: what firefox does is close to what we do but slightly less sensible
  229. # [11:57] <hyatt> mjs: although if it's what WinIE does too, i guess i should just suck it up and do it
  230. # [11:58] <hyatt> shame that bmw.com has such shitty html
  231. # [11:59] <mjs> hyatt: I'll test in IE
  232. # [12:00] <anne> "WebKit basically does what I implemented here"
  233. # [12:00] <anne> :)
  234. # [12:01] <anne> hyatt, html5lib doesn't just parse things as a tree
  235. # [12:01] <anne> hyatt, it actually implements the HTML5 spec
  236. # [12:01] <mjs> where's the DOM tester thingie again?
  237. # [12:01] <anne> hyatt, including the nasty <table> stuff and everything else that's nasty
  238. # [12:01] <mjs> would like to test what DOM IE is making on this page
  239. # [12:01] <anne> mjs, "google live dom viewer"
  240. # [12:01] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/
  241. # [12:01] <mjs> anne: ty
  242. # [12:02] <mjs> in IE the stray table closes the prior table
  243. # [12:02] <mjs> so if both IE and Firefox do it, sounds like we have to as well
  244. # [12:03] <hyatt> anne: does html5lib pull stuff out of <table>
  245. # [12:03] <hyatt> if you have <table><div>Blah<tr>
  246. # [12:03] <hyatt> does it pull <div>blah out and put it before <table>?
  247. # [12:03] <anne> yes
  248. # [12:04] <hyatt> anne: is this in the spec yet?
  249. # [12:04] <anne> html5lib implements the spec
  250. # [12:04] <hyatt> anne: here's the pattern where safari fails
  251. # [12:04] <hyatt> <table><div><table>
  252. # [12:04] <mjs> hyatt: mozilla and IE seem to get basically the same DOM in the test case on that bug
  253. # [12:04] <hyatt> we pull the div out
  254. # [12:04] <anne> (there are some minor differences, but this is certainly not it)
  255. # [12:04] <hyatt> but then we put the second table inside the div
  256. # [12:04] <mjs> other than missing whitespace text nodes in IE
  257. # [12:05] <hyatt> which is what i implemented on purpose
  258. # [12:05] <anne> In html5lib the second <table> closes the first
  259. # [12:05] <anne> so you get <div></div><table></table><table> ...
  260. # [12:05] <hyatt> hmmm that's just not a rule we have at all
  261. # [12:05] * anne checks Firefox
  262. # [12:06] <hyatt> firefox seems to do that too
  263. # [12:06] <anne> right
  264. # [12:06] <hyatt> messing with this stuff though is like playing with fire
  265. # [12:06] <hyatt> i want to make sure i know what the precise rule is before i do it
  266. # [12:06] <anne> agreed :)
  267. # [12:07] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  268. # [12:07] <anne> although messing with CSS can be more dangerous
  269. # [12:07] <mjs> messing with CSS can break even standards-compliant pages
  270. # [12:07] <hyatt> i call this being in stray table content
  271. # [12:07] <hyatt> so if i'm understanding the rule
  272. # [12:08] <anne> so what HTML5 says is that you process the node as if the insertion mode is in table
  273. # [12:08] <hyatt> a <table> encountered while in stray table content closes up the table
  274. # [12:08] <anne> wait
  275. # [12:08] <anne> just read the "anything else" clause of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#in-table
  276. # [12:08] <anne> (prolly easier than me explaining it wrongly)
  277. # [12:08] <hyatt> wow cool
  278. # [12:09] <hyatt> yeah what i stated is right
  279. # [12:09] <hyatt> ok i get what to do
  280. # [12:09] <anne> although I can try: you insert the <div> before the table and then process the next node in table mode again
  281. # [12:09] <anne> (something in that direction)
  282. # [12:09] <hyatt> yes thats what we have
  283. # [12:09] <hyatt> we just don't have the rule that seeing <table> while in this mode means you first do </table>
  284. # [12:09] <anne> ah
  285. # [12:09] <hyatt> which is what the spec says
  286. # [12:10] <anne> should be easy then :)
  287. # [12:10] <hyatt> "ct as if an end tag token with the tag name "table" had been seen, then, if that token wasn't ignored, reprocess the current token."
  288. # [12:10] <hyatt> which sounds more complicated than it is
  289. # [12:10] <anne> that's covering innerHTML
  290. # [12:10] <anne> i think
  291. # [12:11] <anne> it is
  292. # [12:12] <hyatt> mmm this will be tricky actually
  293. # [12:12] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  294. # [12:13] <hyatt> hmmm i think the spec is not right
  295. # [12:14] <hyatt> anne: yeah this does not describe reality
  296. # [12:14] <anne> it does for Firefox, no?
  297. # [12:16] <anne> what's the case that fails?
  298. # [12:16] <hyatt> the spec says that stray content gets put under a foster parent element
  299. # [12:17] <hyatt> but it neglects to state that this token then becomes the current node
  300. # [12:17] <hyatt> i don't know, maybe that's what "process the token" implies.
  301. # [12:17] <hyatt> it says this though:
  302. # [12:17] <hyatt> "If the current node is a table, tbody, tfoot, thead, or tr element, then, whenever a node would be inserted into the current node, it must instead be inserted into the foster parent element."
  303. # [12:18] <hyatt> it then has to become the current node though.
  304. # [12:18] <hyatt> i don't think the spec is describing the fact that the stray content can have children
  305. # [12:18] <hyatt> properly
  306. # [12:18] <hyatt> Example:
  307. # [12:18] <hyatt> <div style="border:2px solid red">
  308. # [12:18] <hyatt> <table>
  309. # [12:18] <hyatt> <div style="border:10px solid green; height:30px"><div style="border:2px solid blue; height:10px">
  310. # [12:18] <hyatt> the green div gets put before the table
  311. # [12:18] <hyatt> the blue div goes inside the green div
  312. # [12:19] <hyatt> spec seems to not cover this
  313. # [12:20] <anne> i believe it does
  314. # [12:20] <anne> as far as that <table><div>x gives you <div>x</div><table></table> in html5lib
  315. # [12:20] <anne> but I'm not sure how that's backed up by the spec :)
  316. # [12:21] <hyatt> yeah
  317. # [12:21] <hyatt> i don't think the spec has adequately clarified that
  318. # [12:23] <hyatt> heh my fix is 2 lines
  319. # [12:23] <hyatt> if (inStrayTableContent && localName == tableTag)
  320. # [12:23] <hyatt> popBlock(tableTag);
  321. # [12:23] <hyatt> pretty readable if i do say so myself
  322. # [12:24] <anne> I think it is in the spec actually
  323. # [12:24] <anne> because the stack of open elements changes
  324. # [12:24] <hyatt> ah ok
  325. # [12:24] <anne> as a result of inserting the <div>
  326. # [12:24] <hyatt> i hadn't read all the infrastructure text
  327. # [12:24] <hyatt> which is why i wasn't sure
  328. # [12:24] <anne> maybe an example would help there :)
  329. # [12:26] <hyatt> mjs: review?
  330. # [12:26] <hyatt> mjs: http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12740
  331. # [12:26] <anne> i meant that the current node changes
  332. # [12:26] <hyatt> anne: see, this is what i wish people could see.
  333. # [12:26] <hyatt> anne: the spec just showed me how to make a top web site work
  334. # [12:27] <mjs> hyatt: looks good, don't forget ChangeLog and layout test (and to run the existing layout tests)
  335. # [12:27] <hyatt> people need to realize how valuable it is that the rule was described
  336. # [12:27] <anne> (the current node is no longer a table, tbody, etc. element and therefore it's not inserted into the foster parent element but into the current node)
  337. # [12:27] <hyatt> mjs: yeah running em now
  338. # [12:27] <hyatt> anne: but the spec covers that you're still "in stray table content" and that a <tr>, <td>, <tfoot> etc. should go into the table instead?
  339. # [12:28] <anne> you're in the "in table mode"
  340. # [12:28] <anne> you hit anything else
  341. # [12:28] <anne> then you process the node as if you were in the "body" mode (but you don't actually change the mode)
  342. # [12:29] <anne> if the current node is then a table you insert into the foster parent element, current node changes...
  343. # [12:29] <anne> then the next node is processed in the "table mode" again
  344. # [12:29] <hyatt> thats what i wanted to make sure was described
  345. # [12:29] <hyatt> ok
  346. # [12:29] <anne> and the current node is no longer table, tbody, etc.
  347. # [12:29] <hyatt> wait, though
  348. # [12:30] <hyatt> <div><table><div>
  349. # [12:30] <hyatt> ok now current node is the <div>
  350. # [12:30] <hyatt> but you're in "table mode"
  351. # [12:30] <hyatt> now let's say you have:
  352. # [12:30] <hyatt> <div><table><div>x
  353. # [12:30] <anne> current node is <div>
  354. # [12:30] <anne> so x is inserted in <div>
  355. # [12:30] <hyatt> but you just said: "then the next node is processed in the "table mode" again"
  356. # [12:31] <anne> "x" is processed in the table mode
  357. # [12:31] <anne> you hit anything else
  358. # [12:31] <anne> that says to process it in the body mode
  359. # [12:31] <anne> the current node is not table, tbody etc. so foster parent doesn't apply
  360. # [12:31] <anne> hence "x" is inserted into the current node, which is <div>
  361. # [12:31] <hyatt> i guess i need to study this
  362. # [12:31] <hyatt> i know how it's supposed to work
  363. # [12:32] <hyatt> but i find the spec language completely unclear
  364. # [12:32] <anne> maybe because you jumped in the middle of it? :)
  365. # [12:32] <hyatt> yeah
  366. # [12:32] * Quits: nickshanks (nicholas@195.137.85.17) (Ping timeout)
  367. # [12:33] <hyatt> oh i see
  368. # [12:33] <hyatt> x is a parse error
  369. # [12:33] <hyatt> btu then you process it like it's in body
  370. # [12:33] <hyatt> so then it goes under div
  371. # [12:33] <hyatt> everything is a parse error first
  372. # [12:33] <hyatt> odd way of looking at it
  373. # [12:34] <hyatt> i'm not sure i'd have specified it like that
  374. # [12:34] * Joins: tH (r@83.100.174.14)
  375. # [12:35] <hyatt> i can sort of see why he did that
  376. # [12:35] <hyatt> but it's not how i would implement it
  377. # [12:39] * Joins: nickshanks (nicholas@195.137.85.17)
  378. # [12:50] * Parts: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  379. # [12:52] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  380. # [12:52] * Quits: sbuluf (cauuzz@200.49.140.206) (Ping timeout)
  381. # [13:00] * Quits: inimino (inimino@75.71.88.233) (Ping timeout)
  382. # [13:07] <hsivonen> I think a say Eclipse-based IDE for HTML5 apps would be a more worthy goal than Messina's tools for XUL
  383. # [13:09] <anne> Who is Messina?
  384. # [13:10] <hsivonen> anne: an ex-SpreadFirefox, ex-Flock guy who vlogged 50 minutes about what Mozilla should be doing in his opinion
  385. # [13:10] * hsivonen would have preferred a short piece of text that took less than 50 minutes to read
  386. # [13:11] * anne thinks it would be really bad if Mozilla started to advocate proprietary markup languages
  387. # [13:12] * anne would love some features of XUL in HTML and CSS though
  388. # [13:16] <hsivonen> GWT with more Eclipse goodness might be the HTML5 answer to Flex
  389. # [13:19] <anne> role= in HTML is about overloading class= per http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/adaptable/HTML4/embedding-20061212.html
  390. # [13:19] <anne> except that they use a script attached that will turn those classes into namespaced attributes or something
  391. # [13:19] <anne> weird
  392. # [13:20] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.42.169)
  393. # [13:20] <myakura> couldn't it be done by extending html4 dtd?
  394. # [13:20] <anne> I suppose
  395. # [13:20] <hsivonen> myakura: that would be too practical. the DTD is frozen!
  396. # [13:21] <hsivonen> myakura: of course, getting rid of DTDs is even more practical
  397. # [13:21] <myakura> :)
  398. # [13:22] <anne> The accessibility use case for role= seems to be a problem that HTML5 tries to solve
  399. # [13:23] <anne> Maybe in combination with XBL
  400. # [13:25] * hsivonen wonders what the "international community" is in Messina's vocabulary. is it newspeak for everything except the U.S.?
  401. # [13:25] * hsivonen closes the video
  402. # [13:26] <hsivonen> not efficient use of my time
  403. # [13:26] * anne hasn't been efficient today
  404. # [13:26] * anne had this plan to watch some TV series but got distracted by e-mail
  405. # [13:26] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Ping timeout)
  406. # [13:27] <anne> and forums.whatwg.org
  407. # [13:27] <anne> people seem to like that a lot more than help@whatwg.org
  408. # [13:27] * hsivonen doesn't read forum.w.o
  409. # [13:28] <anne> I read it every month or so, I think
  410. # [13:44] * Joins: jdandrea (jdandrea@68.192.161.254)
  411. # [13:50] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.42.169) (Ping timeout)
  412. # [14:02] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.43.239)
  413. # [14:09] * Philip` wonders why Philip Taylor (the other one) likes www-html so much
  414. # [14:10] <Dashiva> It's more semantical
  415. # [14:11] <Lachy> probably because he thinks www-html has a lot of people on it who are interested in particpating, without realising that if they want to participate, they should join public-html
  416. # [14:12] <anne> ask him
  417. # [14:13] <zcorpan_> or he wants people who are subscribed to public-html to unsubscribe from www-html
  418. # [14:14] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  419. # [14:14] <Lachy> I'm considering unsubscribing from www-html
  420. # [14:15] * zcorpan_ is not subscribed, did he miss anything?
  421. # [14:15] <Lachy> no, it's all been cross posted to pubic-html
  422. # [14:15] <zcorpan_> ok
  423. # [14:15] <Lachy> except for Philip's last mail
  424. # [14:20] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  425. # [14:47] * anne wonders if people actually checked the headers "heuristics" (it really is an algorithm) in HTML5
  426. # [14:47] <anne> it deals with all table examples given so far...
  427. # [14:48] <Philip`> Is there an implementation people can play with?
  428. # [14:50] <anne> Don't think so
  429. # [14:50] <anne> Might be nice to create one in script or something...
  430. # [14:51] <anne> I do think the algorithm in the spec needs some further tweaking
  431. # [14:59] <Philip`> Hmm, I don't see why the algorithm would handle <table><tr><th colspan=2>H <tr><td>A<td>B</table> linking H to B (which I assume it should) - it sounds like the header is only applied to cells anchored at x=1, which is only A and not B
  432. # [15:00] <Philip`> ...or maybe it's just my assumption that H and B should be linked that is wrong
  433. # [15:01] * Joins: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117)
  434. # [15:02] <anne> it should
  435. # [15:03] <anne> it also doesn't handle headers give in the first column
  436. # [15:03] <anne> which is quite typical
  437. # [15:03] <ddailey> I wonder if all the folks talking about cowpaths realize that the thread is being cross-posted to public-html
  438. # [15:04] <anne> dunno
  439. # [15:04] <anne> better for me anyway as I'm not subscribed to www-html
  440. # [15:05] <ddailey> me neither
  441. # [15:06] <ddailey> do all the browsers agree about when <tbody> is created? -- I mean in the chronology of events following createElement("table")
  442. # [15:07] <anne> if you create tables through the DOM you have to insert it yourself
  443. # [15:07] <anne> all browsers agree about the implicitly inserting it during parsing though, if that's what you mean (afaik, too)
  444. # [15:08] <ddailey> oh... but when you use the table tag -- it's there automatically -- same with document.write("<table>" ?
  445. # [15:08] <anne> document.write() just inserts characters into the input stream
  446. # [15:08] <anne> so yes
  447. # [15:09] <ddailey> seems like I ran into some unprectable things here with tbody not existing when I thought it should or vice versa -- I'll have to look around a bit and see if I can find the example
  448. # [15:18] * Parts: ddailey (david_dail@24.144.172.117)
  449. # [15:21] * hsivonen probably should have changed public-html to www-archive in his cowpath reply :-(
  450. # [15:28] <hsivonen> I guess I'd better unsubscribe from www-html
  451. # [15:28] <hsivonen> sorry about sending mail to public-html
  452. # [15:29] <anne> why do you say sorry?
  453. # [15:29] <hsivonen> anne: because the chair had said email shouldn't be sent
  454. # [15:31] <anne> i don't think it's such a big deal
  455. # [15:31] <anne> at least, I hope not!
  456. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> anyone sending email to public-html will be removed from the group :P
  457. # [15:32] * Dashiva sends mail claiming semantics are stupid and watches the carnage
  458. # [15:33] <Philip`> He also explicitly said "We perhaps have some design principles text to review, but we're taking a break from that for a time", so continuing discussions about design principles may not be the best thing to do
  459. # [15:34] <zcorpan_> </discuss-design-principles>
  460. # [15:34] <hsivonen> from my point of view, I wasn't talking about design principles but about the axiom-based recent accessibility criticism
  461. # [15:34] <hsivonen> but yeah
  462. # [15:35] <zcorpan_> <continue-discussion-at-whatwg>
  463. # [15:35] <anne> that didn't seem like a design principle discussion to me though
  464. # [15:35] <gsnedders> hsivonen: why do I think Patrick's reply is missing the word "*default*"
  465. # [15:35] <anne> zcorpan_, that tag has no end tag
  466. # [15:35] <anne> zcorpan_, and is already on the stack since somewhere in 2004 :)
  467. # [15:35] * anne catches up with Lost
  468. # [15:35] * zcorpan_ is a parse error
  469. # [15:36] <zcorpan_> token ignored
  470. # [15:37] <Dashiva> "zcorpan_" unrecognized tag
  471. # [15:37] <Dashiva> In fact, none of us validate at all
  472. # [15:37] <Dashiva> Except tH
  473. # [15:37] * anne nick a
  474. # [15:37] * anne is now known as a
  475. # [15:37] * Dashiva shakes fist
  476. # [15:38] <Dashiva> Of course, if you say more than one line now, we'll have nested anchors
  477. # [15:38] <a> neh </a>
  478. # [15:38] <Dashiva> Foiled again
  479. # [15:38] * a is now known as anne
  480. # [15:46] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@210.232.34.13) (Quit: Quitting!)
  481. # [15:48] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  482. # [15:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: fwiw, I've no resolved the crossposting issue for the future by unsubscribing from www-html.
  483. # [15:50] <hsivonen> s/ no / now /
  484. # [15:52] * Joins: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235)
  485. # [15:52] * Quits: Shunsuke (Shunsuke@219.110.80.235) (Quit: See you...)
  486. # [15:57] <zcorpan_> a good example for the semantic debate is ads, come to think of it
  487. # [15:58] <zcorpan_> everyone uses ads
  488. # [15:58] <zcorpan_> yet noone would mark them up as being ads
  489. # [16:01] * anne notices he missed a bunch of Heroes episodes
  490. # [16:01] <Philip`> That would be useful for users - *[role="ad"]{display:none}
  491. # [16:02] <Philip`> Not so useful for content producers, I suppose, hence why it's not that popular
  492. # [16:03] <Philip`> Same problem as has been hampering adoption of the IP evil bit
  493. # [16:03] <anne> <a ping>
  494. # [16:06] <Philip`> That's slightly useful for content producers since they can be lazy and not bother setting up redirection scripts, as a tradeoff against receiving less useful tracking information
  495. # [16:27] * Joins: OSxp (xpuser@87.228.148.119)
  496. # [16:27] <OSxp> Hello except of html do you css ?
  497. # [16:28] <OSxp> know *
  498. # [16:28] <hsivonen> OSxp: this is the IRC channel for the W3C HTML working group. this is not a forum for discussing CSS.
  499. # [16:29] <OSxp> well i do not want to discuss css
  500. # [16:29] <OSxp> I only want to know what the hell opacity is ?
  501. # [16:29] <OSxp> I have been learning CSS for more than 2 years and i have seen such a property
  502. # [16:30] <Philip`> Like http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#transparency ?
  503. # [16:31] <OSxp> oh i see!
  504. # [16:31] <OSxp> I didn
  505. # [16:31] <OSxp> I didn't know it because it is from css3
  506. # [16:32] * anne likes http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/#comment57
  507. # [16:34] <OSxp> Guys , should i start learning CSS 3 ?
  508. # [16:34] <OSxp> Or not yet?
  509. # [16:36] <anne> depends on what you want to do
  510. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> OSxp: i thought you said you didn't want to discuss css?
  511. # [16:39] <OSxp> lol ok
  512. # [16:43] <OSxp> So do i have to learn css3 ?
  513. # [16:45] <anne> depends on what you want to do
  514. # [16:46] <zcorpan_> OSxp: i thought you said you didn't want to discuss css?
  515. # [16:46] * zcorpan_ hears echos
  516. # [16:46] <OSxp> lol
  517. # [16:46] <OSxp> anne like what? what can css3 do ?
  518. # [16:47] <zcorpan_> http://www.css3.info/preview/
  519. # [16:49] <OSxp> However , css3 are ready ?
  520. # [16:52] <anne> try irc.freenode.org, #css
  521. # [16:52] <OSxp> i am on efnet
  522. # [16:52] <anne> what might work too
  523. # [16:52] <anne> this, however, is the wrong place
  524. # [16:52] <OSxp> ok thanks anne
  525. # [16:52] <OSxp> bye
  526. # [16:52] * Parts: OSxp (xpuser@87.228.148.119)
  527. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> funny guy
  528. # [17:12] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  529. # [17:17] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  530. # [17:31] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Quit: leaving)
  531. # [17:35] * Quits: myakura (myakura@125.194.247.196) (Ping timeout)
  532. # [17:36] * Joins: myakura (myakura@125.194.247.196)
  533. # [17:49] * Joins: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.150.90)
  534. # [18:26] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  535. # [18:44] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  536. # [18:46] * Joins: theoros (theoros@172.200.210.68)
  537. # [18:47] * Quits: theoros (theoros@172.200.210.68) (Quit: Leaving)
  538. # [19:28] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  539. # [19:34] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  540. # [19:37] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.43.239) (Ping timeout)
  541. # [20:06] * mjs is now known as othermaciej
  542. # [20:20] * Quits: tH (r@83.100.174.14) (Ping timeout)
  543. # [20:23] * Joins: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230)
  544. # [20:39] * Joins: zdenko (zdenko@84.255.203.169)
  545. # [20:53] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  546. # [21:02] * Joins: tH (r@83.100.174.14)
  547. # [21:05] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  548. # [21:18] * Joins: xower (link@193.157.66.8)
  549. # [21:32] * Quits: myakura (myakura@125.194.247.196) (Quit: Leaving...)
  550. # [21:45] * Quits: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230) (Quit: Roger)
  551. # [21:46] * Joins: sbuluf (irjkwi@200.49.140.136)
  552. # [21:48] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.150.90) (Quit: Quitting!)
  553. # [21:49] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  554. # [21:51] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@72.29.239.177)
  555. # [22:10] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@72.29.239.177) (Quit: kingryan)
  556. # [22:35] * Joins: inimino (inimino@75.71.88.233)
  557. # [23:02] * Quits: loic (loic@86.71.4.162) (Quit: hoopa rules)
  558. # Session Close: Sun May 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)