/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 13 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  4. # [00:14] <hyatt> Hixie: ping
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  21. # [02:12] <ddailey> I agree with anne -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/#comment57 makes very good sense
  22. # [02:13] <Dashiva> anne = mattur?
  23. # [02:16] <ddailey> Not sure ... at [16:32] in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070512
  24. # [02:17] <ddailey> I assumed this was anne -- but it may have been someone presuming to speak for anne
  25. # [02:18] <hsivonen> ddailey: anne said he liked the comment
  26. # [02:18] <hsivonen> ddailey: doh. I misread what you sai
  27. # [02:18] <hsivonen> d
  28. # [02:18] <hsivonen> never mind
  29. # [02:19] <ddailey> hsivonen: I liked it too
  30. # [02:19] <othermaciej> I dunno who "mattur" is, but he or she makes a good point
  31. # [02:22] <ddailey> He she or it makes it almost self evident.
  32. # [02:25] <ddailey> Perhaps the other perspective fears that a descriptivist grammar is mutagenic
  33. # [02:25] * Dashiva looks that up
  34. # [02:26] <Dashiva> Indeed
  35. # [02:27] <ddailey> might there be some way to convince people that the future will not degrade into chaos?
  36. # [02:28] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - /me wishes you had auto-update for Webkit nightlies
  37. # [02:29] <Philip`> http://web.mac.com/reinholdpenner/iWeb/Software/NightShift.html ?
  38. # [02:29] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: NightShift
  39. # [02:29] <othermaciej> I should add a link to webkit.org
  40. # [02:31] <ddailey> for example: showing a migration path that includes ample reassurance that life will still be good after 2010
  41. # [02:31] <ddailey> are nightly builds for webkit equivalent to nightly builds for safari?
  42. # [02:32] <ddailey> or how closely coupled are the two?
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  44. # [02:33] <Philip`> ddailey: I think http://webkit.org/blog/101/back-to-basics/ tries to explain that
  45. # [02:34] <ddailey> thanks Philip`
  46. # [02:34] <MikeSmith> othermaciej - just downloaded NightShift ... very cool -- thanks
  47. # [02:37] <ddailey> othermaciej and colleagues may be pleased to know that some "customers" now just assume that Safari / OSX widgets exist everywhere. Reminds me of 1985.
  48. # [02:39] <ddailey> Mac-aware users started assuming a GUI was possible everywhere
  49. # [02:45] <ddailey> they rather succeeded in convincing others that it was worth looking at
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  135. # [21:35] <dbaron> ok, I'm unsubscribing from www-html
  136. # [21:36] <dbaron> tired of the duplicate messages, and participation by reading occasional messages doesn't seem to be welcome
  137. # [21:38] <anne> FWIW: I agree with you that it would be nice if HTML5 defined all features of HTML in use on the web
  138. # [21:38] <dbaron> in use on the Web is a little strong
  139. # [21:39] <dbaron> that includes a lot of proprietary stuff that is very rarely used
  140. # [21:41] <Lachy> dbaron, what gave you the idea that your input wasn't welcome? It just seemed like a slight misunderstanding of what was being discussed.
  141. # [21:41] <dbaron> how was I supposed to know that that was being discussed?
  142. # [21:41] <dbaron> It's not mentioned in your message or any of the ones preceding it in the thread
  143. # [21:41] <dbaron> you can't have a 300 person discussion without being clear about what you're saying ,sorry
  144. # [21:42] <Lachy> I just thought it was implied that we were talking about what authors could use
  145. # [21:43] <anne> Hmm, yeah, I guess rarely used stuff should be excluded somehow. Like <t:video>...
  146. # [21:44] <anne> I meant things like <frameset>, <marquee>, <body vlink>, etc.
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  151. # [22:10] <schepers> dbaron, please don't unsubscribe... people like you are crucial to HTML5's success
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  153. # [22:16] <anne> www-html isn't
  154. # [22:18] <schepers> oh, right, ok
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  156. # [22:21] <hsivonen> oh. there's been a whole thread on www-html since I unsubscribed
  157. # [22:22] <anne> same thing happened when I unsubscribed a month ago :)
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  159. # [22:23] <hsivonen> anne: well, I unsubscribed yesterday
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  169. # [23:19] <hyatt> dbaron: you there?
  170. # [23:22] <dbaron> hyatt, yes
  171. # [23:26] <hyatt> dbaron: i sent out some more details
  172. # [23:26] <hyatt> about the idea for this baseline property
  173. # [23:27] <hyatt> i actually don't think it would be inherited.
  174. # [23:27] <hyatt> dbaron: in terms of webkit, we basically have a method on our renderobjects called baselinePosition
  175. # [23:27] <hyatt> for inline flows/blocks it's font.ascent() + leading / 2
  176. # [23:27] <hyatt> for replaced elements it is margin top + height + margin bottom
  177. # [23:27] <hyatt> for inline blocks it is the last line box's baseline etc.
  178. # [23:27] <hyatt> i basically want a CSS property that lets me define that value
  179. # [23:28] <hyatt> instead of it being hardcoded for the various element types
  180. # [23:28] <hyatt> so i don't think the property would need to be inherited
  181. # [23:28] <hyatt> since when set on say a <div>
  182. # [23:28] <hyatt> anyone who needed to vertically align to the baseline would align to that spot
  183. # [23:28] * Quits: Philip` (philip@80.177.163.133) (Ping timeout)
  184. # [23:29] <dbaron> well, that wouldn't address your use case, I don't think, since it wouldn't affect the position of the first line when in the normal flow
  185. # [23:29] <hyatt> it wouldn't?
  186. # [23:29] <hyatt> when set on a block it would establish the baseline's position
  187. # [23:29] <dbaron> Blocks don't normally care about their block baseline
  188. # [23:29] <hyatt> well, it would establish the baseline of the "root line"
  189. # [23:30] <hyatt> e.g., in the sense that :first-line { font-size: 24px }
  190. # [23:30] <dbaron> so why shouldn't it do the same for inline-blocks?
  191. # [23:30] <dbaron> your baselinePosition method seems to mix the baseline as applied to the inside (block) with baseline as applied to the outside (inline-block)
  192. # [23:30] <hyatt> well, inline-blocks have a duality that makes it hard to decide what the property would mean
  193. # [23:30] <hyatt> our baselinePosition method in webkit takes a bool
  194. # [23:30] <hyatt> it's dual
  195. # [23:31] <hyatt> so good point.
  196. # [23:31] <hyatt> an inline-block has two baselinePositions in our code
  197. # [23:31] <hyatt> the outside one and the inside one
  198. # [23:31] <dbaron> one option is to make the property apply only to blocks, and set their baseline-inside
  199. # [23:31] <dbaron> and not be inherited
  200. # [23:31] <hyatt> yeah
  201. # [23:31] <hyatt> that would work
  202. # [23:31] <hyatt> i think having both props is useful
  203. # [23:31] <hyatt> one thing we had to hardcode for example
  204. # [23:31] <hyatt> is the baseline position of checkboxes
  205. # [23:32] <dbaron> this seems the least dangerous in terms of messing up the idea that the model generally tries to lead to things not overlapping
  206. # [23:32] <hyatt> somethign like a checkbox is an "image"
  207. # [23:32] <hyatt> but it needs to establish a baseline other than marginTOp + height + marginbottom
  208. # [23:32] <dbaron> but it would still lead to bad results if a large image or something in a bigger font ended up in the first line
  209. # [23:32] <hyatt> since you'd like to be able to set a baseline at an aesthetically pleasing point
  210. # [23:32] <hyatt> dbaron: yeah this property is all about pixel level control
  211. # [23:32] <hyatt> which is giving the author rope
  212. # [23:32] <hyatt> potentially to hang themselves
  213. # [23:33] <hyatt> it may be unsuitable for a standard
  214. # [23:33] <hyatt> i don't feel strongly about it
  215. # [23:33] <hyatt> we can always add in the hack just for the people who need it
  216. # [23:33] <hyatt> but i thought it was worth bringing up
  217. # [23:34] <dbaron> ok; I was scared you were trying to push it in and were already implementing
  218. # [23:34] <hyatt> (this is post-leopard too, so there's not any rush)
  219. # [23:34] <hyatt> nope
  220. # [23:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, pointer?
  221. # [23:36] * RRSAgent See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/13-html-wg-irc#T21-30-57
  222. # [23:36] * dbaron RRSAgent, make logs public
  223. # [23:36] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, dbaron
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  227. # [23:44] <hyatt> dbaron: i'd point out that line-height is "dangerous" in that it can easily cause lines to overlap
  228. # [23:49] <dbaron> hyatt, though only when less than 1
  229. # [23:49] <hyatt> irght
  230. # [23:49] <dbaron> or less than 'normal', anyway
  231. # [23:51] <hyatt> i wish the css wg wasn't closed
  232. # [23:51] <hyatt> i hate that all these conversations take place on a private list
  233. # [23:51] <hyatt> i should send stuff to www-style instead
  234. # [23:52] <hyatt> Hixie: ping
  235. # [23:53] <hyatt> Hixie: regarding your comment in http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13696
  236. # [23:54] <hyatt> Hixie: html5 was more restrictive when compared with firefox
  237. # [23:54] <hyatt> Hixie: i went ahead and matched firefox
  238. # [23:54] <hyatt> which reopened in more circumstances
  239. # [23:58] <hyatt> Hixie: i'd be curious to try my test case in WinIE
  240. # [23:58] <hyatt> Hixie: this is not about the set of tags that reopen
  241. # [23:59] <hyatt> Hixie: this is about the set of tags that (when closed) cause those tags to reopen when popping
  242. # [23:59] <hyatt> which should be nearly everything
  243. # [23:59] <hyatt> except for table stuff and selects basically
  244. # [23:59] <hyatt> (and for some odd reason ffx didn't reopen object but did for embed, applet, canvas)
  245. # [23:59] <hyatt> (so i matched ffx)
  246. # [23:59] <hyatt> reopen across </object>
  247. # Session Close: Mon May 14 00:00:00 2007

The end :)