/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-17 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 17 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  36. # [06:01] <ddailey> Hixie: when you say and i think we should have a principle that says that existing practices, where harmless or beneficial, should be adopted, rather than trying to swim upstream for purely theoretical reasons -- I think there are already two design principles that cover that: support existing content and save the cowpaths
  37. # [06:01] <ddailey> the trick is to get folks to agree with the basic premise underlying all
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  39. # [06:02] <ddailey> I think that if we acknowledge that browser makers have to render existing material, and that spec organizations have two roles:
  40. # [06:02] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  41. # [06:03] <Hixie> ddailey: i was saying that as a suggestion to split the "pave the cowpaths" principle in three
  42. # [06:03] <ddailey> providing guidance to browser makers so that authors don't need to write code four times AND providing guidance to authors so that best practices start to emerge
  43. # [06:03] <ddailey> then there may not be any disagreement
  44. # [06:04] <Hixie> i was just talking about the author side
  45. # [06:05] <ddailey> I think most of why people object to supporting existing content is that it sounds like bad grammar is being mandated -- it isn't
  46. # [06:06] <ddailey> the browser folks just want to preserve what already exists without breaking it
  47. # [06:06] <Hixie> yeah
  48. # [06:06] * Hixie is aware :-)
  49. # [06:06] <ddailey> a good authoring document from W3C could just resolve the dispute (it seems to me -- completely naively of course)
  50. # [06:07] <Hixie> yeah... we just need someone to volunteer to write it
  51. # [06:08] <mjs> we do have volunteers to write authoring guidelines / tutorials based on the specs, though none who have actually started yet
  52. # [06:08] <mjs> ddailey: see, I don't believe in bad grammar
  53. # [06:09] <ddailey> I would never have thought you to have :)
  54. # [06:09] <ddailey> oh ick that sounds awful
  55. # [06:10] <ddailey> Murray seems to have accepted Dan's nomination and he seems to be qualified
  56. # [06:10] <Hixie> imho there is only one qualification that is needed
  57. # [06:10] <Hixie> and that is having already started
  58. # [06:10] <Hixie> :-)
  59. # [06:11] <ddailey> it is just a matter of getting the ball rolling and convincing folks it is rolling in the right direction
  60. # [06:11] <ddailey> If there is confidence that bad grammar is not being mandated, then alot of the suspicion may evaporate
  61. # [06:12] <ddailey> I know it isn't being mandated -- you guys tell us it isn't -- Maybe a good solid promisory note that it won't be will be enough
  62. # [06:13] <ddailey> s/isory/issory/
  63. # [06:14] <ddailey> I have a sense that the WG will eventually sort of coalesce
  64. # [06:15] <ddailey> but that the oddball harmonics of third generation dispute will reverberate for a few years
  65. # [06:16] <Hixie> i thought we'd already resolved that particular issue actually
  66. # [06:17] <ddailey> That would be nice -- I thought people just got sidetracked by new stuff and by Dan's prohibition on the topic for a while
  67. # [06:18] <ddailey> it seemed to me that the same issue rather mutated into a new guise
  68. # [06:18] <Hixie> maybe
  69. # [06:18] <Hixie> i guess we'll see when the group does real work
  70. # [06:19] <ddailey> That is clearly what Dan is encouraging
  71. # [06:19] <ddailey> It's amazing that WHATWG is still getting work done -- my hat is off to all of you
  72. # [06:20] <Hixie> the competition isn't going to stand still while we do our little w3c politicking... we can't afford to not get work done
  73. # [06:23] <ddailey> The people who have been doing WHATWG for a long time do have a big advantage over the rest of us --
  74. # [06:23] <ddailey> I got knee deep in some document.write test cases I was trying to figure out during the last week
  75. # [06:24] <ddailey> and found myself getting confused about specs and browsers and what a test case would show
  76. # [06:24] <mjs> the internets are hard
  77. # [06:25] <ddailey> they are - - mind bogglingly so
  78. # [06:27] <ddailey> well -- it is late in my part of the country -- so will have to sign off -- take a look at the dash-stroke cases I put in WHATWG -- some are quite cute
  79. # [06:27] <Philip`> Writing tests is a good way to hit all the complex bits that are specified or implemented wrongly :-)
  80. # [06:27] <Hixie> nn
  81. # [06:27] <mjs> dashed strokes are kind of useful for charts, if that becomes a more popular use for <canvas> it might be worth speccing them
  82. # [06:27] <Philip`> Not good for minimising confusion, though
  83. # [06:27] <mjs> but detailing how the dash pattern works is a pain
  84. # [06:28] <Hixie> yeah i imagine dashes will be a v3 or v4 feature
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  88. # [06:56] * Hixie tries to understand role=""
  89. # [07:02] <mjs> good luck
  90. # [07:22] * hyatt wonders if he has a cvs account yet
  91. # [07:34] <olivier> hyatt: yes
  92. # [07:34] <olivier> Pine.LNX.4.64.0705101616180.5413@ubzre.j3.bet
  93. # [07:34] <olivier> you were in Cc: of the confirmation mail
  94. # [07:37] <olivier> did you receive it?
  95. # [07:43] <hyatt> hmmm what was the subject?
  96. # [07:43] <hyatt> i don't recall seeing it.
  97. # [07:46] <hyatt> oh maybe this is it
  98. # [07:46] <hyatt> marked as junk!
  99. # [07:46] <hyatt> bah!
  100. # [07:46] <hyatt> stupid mail
  101. # [07:47] <sbuluf> hixie, i'd be interested in hearing what you fould about role
  102. # [07:47] <sbuluf> what are you reading? http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-role.html ?
  103. # [07:48] <Hixie> there's a number of specs about it
  104. # [07:48] <Hixie> i just don't understand what problem is being solved
  105. # [07:48] <Hixie> nor how it is being solved
  106. # [07:48] <sbuluf> i would like to understand as well
  107. # [07:49] <sbuluf> what i just read from that page, does not strike me as model of clarity, exactly
  108. # [07:49] <sbuluf> then again, most specs don't either
  109. # [07:49] <mjs> it's like class, but with XML namespaces
  110. # [07:49] <sbuluf> mjs, roughly, yes, but...
  111. # [07:49] <sbuluf> why another, then, for starters?
  112. # [07:49] <sbuluf> why references to UI, as well?
  113. # [07:50] <sbuluf> why references to RDF?
  114. # [07:50] <mjs> I must quote Bjoern Hermann on this topic
  115. # [07:50] <mjs> "XML namespaces are like violence - if they don't solve your problem, just use more"
  116. # [07:51] <sbuluf> the namespace thing actually do sound logical to me, assuming they did it for the same reason i would
  117. # [07:51] <sbuluf> the way i see it, is just an extensibility mechanism
  118. # [07:52] <mjs> no better or worse than "class"
  119. # [07:52] <sbuluf> don't just allow one space, allow people to create their own, if necessary
  120. # [07:52] <mjs> I do think that an accessibility design based on the natural semantics of elements augmented with "class" would be a good thing, although mostly orthogonal to the old predefined classes
  121. # [07:54] <Hixie> the more i look at role, the more questions i have
  122. # [07:54] <Hixie> oh well
  123. # [07:54] <sbuluf> hixie, do they match mine? others?
  124. # [07:54] <Hixie> yeah, your questions are all in my list of questions
  125. # [07:55] <Hixie> the biggest question is just "what is this solving?"
  126. # [07:55] <mjs> XML namespaces already let you define your own elements and attributes
  127. # [07:55] <mjs> it's not clear what is added by also letting you define your own attribute values for an existing attribute
  128. # [07:56] <mjs> the main advantage of class is that's it's quick and easy
  129. # [07:56] <sbuluf> mjs, how about "for different ontologies, created by different authtorities", for example?
  130. # [07:56] <mjs> sbuluf: why not invent your own attributes for those?
  131. # [07:56] <sbuluf> this, *assuming* role is for rdf connection
  132. # [07:56] <sbuluf> your own attributes?
  133. # [07:58] <mjs> why is <div xmlns:howl="http://miyazaki.org" role="howl:movingness howl:castleness"> better than <div xmlns:howl="http://miyazaki.org" howl:movingness="" howl:castleness="">
  134. # [07:58] <Hixie> more importantly
  135. # [07:58] <mjs> it seems that role only adds syntactic salt
  136. # [07:58] <Hixie> why is any of that better than <div class="moving castle">
  137. # [07:58] <Hixie> or better than <div>
  138. # [08:00] <sbuluf> mm. hixie, i did not do this, so i can not answer for sure. i'm trying to find out, just like you. if this is clear...and assuming mjs would not say "off topic", what i can do is to try to describe why i did something similar in my own model. this might help, or not, up to you guys.
  139. # [08:01] * hyatt liked that movie.
  140. # [08:01] <hyatt> :)
  141. # [08:01] <Hixie> certainly i'm interested in actual use cases and real world problems that we should solve
  142. # [08:01] <Hixie> so if you have some, i'm all ears
  143. # [08:02] <sbuluf> <section style="mystyle" structure="mystructure" meaning="mymeaning" behaviour="mybehaviour" class="" id ="" > Content </section>
  144. # [08:02] <mjs> we did have a proposed use case, assistive technologies for the cognitively impaired
  145. # [08:03] <sbuluf> hixie, that is my current brainstorm, it has similarities, i could try to explain. would that do?
  146. # [08:03] <Hixie> mjs: all the examples in your mail were bogus, sadly. (the ones that used ax:foo classes). that is, they all had much better solutions that didn't require classes.
  147. # [08:04] <mjs> Hixie: I'm not so sure - if you want a custom-looking checkbox, there's no good way to do that today and expose it to a screen reader properly
  148. # [08:04] <Hixie> <input type=checkbox> with XBL
  149. # [08:04] <mjs> Hixie: if all browsers supported styling form controls in a consistent way, that would indeed be a better solution
  150. # [08:04] <Hixie> we're debating which new things to invent here
  151. # [08:05] <Hixie> the fact that something doesn't work yet isn't an argument against it
  152. # [08:05] <hyatt> we can do a custom checkbox in webkit nightlies easily
  153. # [08:05] <hyatt> using input type=checkbox
  154. # [08:05] <Hixie> since role="" doesn't work either
  155. # [08:05] <hyatt> since you can style it however you want
  156. # [08:05] <Hixie> (it's not even specced sanely yet)
  157. # [08:05] <hyatt> don't really need xbl for buttons/checkboxes being styled if you have more CSS power
  158. # [08:06] <hyatt> like multiple backgrounds, border-image etc
  159. # [08:06] <mjs> I didn't personally propose using role="" for anything
  160. # [08:07] <mjs> although I did suggest using some conventionally defined values for class="" plus the normal semantics of elements to replace a proposed use of role=""
  161. # [08:07] <Hixie> hyatt: sure, you can use css for the simple cases too
  162. # [08:07] <Hixie> mjs: right, i mean, there's no reason to prefer that over html+css or html+xbl solutions given that (arguably) none of them work yet.
  163. # [08:08] <mjs> I do think that XBL and/or styling of form controls will significantly reduce the desire for such things
  164. # [08:08] <mjs> Hixie: well, to me, the "normal semantics of elements" part is the high order bit
  165. # [08:08] <mjs> and that does work to some extent in Safari at least
  166. # [08:08] <Hixie> right, but given that we have an <input type=checkbox>, why have a class=ax:checkbox?
  167. # [08:09] <Hixie> what is "that"?
  168. # [08:09] <hyatt> that seems pointless to me
  169. # [08:09] <mjs> Hixie: identifying <input type=checkbox> as a checkbox, identifying things with an onclick attribute as activateable
  170. # [08:09] <Hixie> mjs: oh i agree with that part
  171. # [08:09] <Hixie> mjs: i just meant the classes
  172. # [08:10] <mjs> right, that's only interesting if we think it's acceptable to make things that work like form controls but don't use the relevant element
  173. # [08:10] <mjs> (or act like other UI elements like links)
  174. # [08:12] <mjs> I think looking at maps.google.com and figuring out how to make it accessible would be an instructive example
  175. # [08:12] <mjs> would it be handled just with normal form controls and hypothetical use of XBL or CSS styling? would google realistically use such an approach? if so, then maybe no special markup is needed
  176. # [08:13] <Hixie> what would making it "accessible" entail? would it include reading out street names, e.g.?
  177. # [08:15] <Hixie> (turning css off on that page is a good way to see why i want the irrelevant="" attribute)
  178. # [08:16] <sbuluf> ok, i'll take that as a "no". hixie, thanks for sharing your activities about role.
  179. # [08:18] <mjs> I guess how to present the map content non-visually is a tough problem in itself, I was thinking mainly of the many custom controls on that page
  180. # [08:19] <mjs> looks to me like lots of them are just divs w/ inline style
  181. # [08:21] <Hixie> yup
  182. # [08:21] <Hixie> if you could style buttons reliably, we'd use buttons, i think
  183. # [08:22] <Hixie> but you can't
  184. # [08:22] <Hixie> yet
  185. # [08:22] <Hixie> xbl could easilly turn an <input type=range> control into the zoom control
  186. # [08:22] <mjs> gmail might be a more realistic example of something that could be made accessible to the blind, since it doesn't have the problem of intrinsically visual map data
  187. # [08:23] <mjs> it has lots of things that look like links, act like command buttons, and are actually <span> or <b> elements
  188. # [08:23] <Hixie> accessibility isn't just for blind people. we will need to make maps accessible too, e.g. to people with motor difficulties.
  189. # [08:24] <Hixie> gmail should be using <a> elements for those "link buttons", if for no reason than they should support opening new windows
  190. # [08:24] <mjs> yes, and exposing the identify and nature of controls is helpful for people with motor difficulties, since it can reduce the need to use a pointer potentially
  191. # [08:24] <Hixie> yep
  192. # [08:24] <Hixie> the web is a very immature medium, people are still learning it
  193. # [08:25] <mjs> anyway, I bring these up as interesting case studies, not necessarily proof that one solution or another is good
  194. # [08:25] <Hixie> we're just now getting the second generation of web devs into places like google, people who grew up on the semantics vs presentation split
  195. # [08:25] <mjs> but I do know that the accessibility API on mac both gives the right defaults for using standard controls, and lets you override it if you do something unusual or make completely custom UI
  196. # [08:25] <Hixie> yeah
  197. # [08:26] <mjs> so I have a bit of a going in assumption that this is a sane approach
  198. # [08:26] <mjs> but I think having the right defaults, and encouraging people to use the right elements, is key
  199. # [08:26] <Hixie> yes
  200. # [08:26] <mjs> and having ways to get custom look and maybe somewhat custom behavior while using the right elements
  201. # [08:26] <Hixie> exactly
  202. # [08:27] <Hixie> basically, it should still work and be usable if you turn off all css, imho
  203. # [08:27] <Hixie> if it is, then you're 90% of the way there
  204. # [08:27] <Hixie> (assuming you haven't used <font>, layout tables, etc)
  205. # [08:31] <mjs> anyway I think case studies of existing web apps would be instructive, but it's worth acknowledging that making control appearance and behavior fully customizable cross-browser is a much bigger project than adding some optional tags than screen readers can use (though also much more valuable)
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  207. # [08:33] <Hixie> yup
  208. # [08:33] <Hixie> i'm just not convinced that the labels will work
  209. # [08:33] <Hixie> specifically _because_ they're not that bigger project
  210. # [08:34] <Hixie> the labels would have to be platform/media-specific, to start with
  211. # [08:35] <mjs> I'm not sure how <img class="checkbox"> is more platform- or media-specific than <input type="checkbox">
  212. # [08:36] <Hixie> should it be focused? what should happen when it's focussed and you hit space? when you hit enter? when you hit f8?
  213. # [08:36] <Hixie> with <input> it doesn't matter
  214. # [08:37] <Hixie> it Just Works
  215. # [08:37] <Hixie> with <img>, there's nothing to hook into
  216. # [08:37] <Hixie> you hit space and... what?
  217. # [08:37] <Hixie> if the AT/screen reader knows it's a checkbox and allows the user to hit the "toggle checkbox" keystroke, how does it tell the page?
  218. # [08:38] <Hixie> we need a clear explanation of the problem we're trying to solve, so that we can tell when we solved it
  219. # [08:38] <mjs> a way to activate it programmatically would only require the assumption that clicking on it can toggle; in the checkbox case you would also need to represent the current checked state as well as the fact that it is a checkbox
  220. # [08:39] <mjs> you would indeed want such a thing to work with standard system keyboard and focus behavior, which is hard
  221. # [08:39] <Hixie> it's easy if you're just using <input> as a base, though
  222. # [08:40] <mjs> I'd love to know how XBL deals with such things -- does the binding inherit default keyboard and focus behaviors?
  223. # [08:40] <Hixie> with XBL the AT just sees the actual <input>
  224. # [08:40] <Hixie> it can ignore the whole shadow tree
  225. # [08:40] <Hixie> so the user toggles the button, and all is good
  226. # [08:40] <mjs> sure, it's a technically better solution
  227. # [08:41] <mjs> (although shadow trees that contain controls raise their own set of issues)
  228. # [08:41] <Hixie> yeah, if you start _adding_ semantics with XBL, you're in trouble again
  229. # [08:41] <Hixie> (we need some implementation experience to find out what authors want to do with it)
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  235. # [09:03] <sbuluf> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007May/0794.html <--mark birbeck trying to explain role, if anyone is interested
  236. # [09:04] <sbuluf> there are a number pf messages from him, in a number pf relñated threads trying to do so, in fact
  237. # [09:04] <sbuluf> i believe that particular one he wrote it after speaking with me
  238. # [09:06] <Hixie> i really don't see a problem description in that e-mail
  239. # [09:06] <Hixie> but maybe i missed it
  240. # [09:06] <Hixie> does he describe the problem in a paragraph somewhere?
  241. # [09:07] <sbuluf> hixie, i believe he was answering a particular alternative solution, proposed by someone else in the thread
  242. # [09:08] <sbuluf> i believe it was creating new elements, as opposed to useing role
  243. # [09:08] <sbuluf> so i'm not sure if it would answer/explain role for another different angles, or as opposed to some other alternatives
  244. # [09:11] <Hixie> ah
  245. # [09:12] <sbuluf> Now, when we talk about semantics, there is a subtlty that is often
  246. # [09:12] <sbuluf> missed, which is that sometimes you want to add semantics about a
  247. # [09:12] <sbuluf> document's structure, and sometimes you want to add semantics about
  248. # [09:12] <sbuluf> the _content_ of the document. For example, you might want to indicate
  249. # [09:12] <sbuluf> that some area of a document is the primary navigation area, or the
  250. # [09:12] <sbuluf> footer, or a sidebar, etc. But you might also want to indicate that
  251. # [09:12] <sbuluf> some content is FOAF data, or RSS information, or Dublin Core, or an
  252. # [09:12] <sbuluf> iCal event, etc. In XHTML 2 the former requirement is largely met by
  253. # [09:12] <sbuluf> @role, whilst the latter is met by RDFa.
  254. # [09:12] <sbuluf> oops, sorry
  255. # [09:12] <sbuluf> that bit *might* help some
  256. # [09:14] <Hixie> <nav>, <footer>, <aside>, XFN, not sure what "RSS information" is supposed to be (does anyone really want to do that other than information researchers?), hCard, hCalendar.
  257. # [09:14] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  258. # [09:14] <Hixie> (depending on exactly what the need for doing dublin core is)
  259. # [09:15] <sbuluf> XHTML 2 includes some predefined @role value <--this bit might be informative too
  260. # [09:15] <sbuluf> not too far from your predefined classes, it seems
  261. # [09:16] <mjs> perhaps "RSS information" means hAtom?
  262. # [09:16] * mjs has no idea
  263. # [09:18] <sbuluf> hixie, i have *another bit of information, that might help
  264. # [09:18] <sbuluf> apparently, role itself is not that fixed in stone either
  265. # [09:18] <sbuluf> last time i saw the xhtml2 list, they were discussing something about making it straight a rdf:type or not
  266. # [09:19] <sbuluf> no mention of nothing UI/GUI related
  267. # [09:20] <sbuluf> whihc is another reason why: 1) i can not speak about what other people did 2) i'm trying to find out as well
  268. # [09:21] <Hixie> my predefined classes, as you call them, were killed earlier this evening, fwiw. :-)
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  270. # [09:22] <sbuluf> i read you before, you mentioned you were going to.
  271. # [09:22] <sbuluf> a few days back
  272. # [09:22] <Hixie> sbuluf: yeah, interesting stuff (re role)
  273. # [09:23] <sbuluf> hixie, fwiw as well, i think it was wise. someone like me could have dmolished easily, was i even subscribed to the list. in any case, too polemic
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  276. # [09:30] <sbuluf> still, the problem is genuine, i think. perhaps you could give it another shot in a few months.
  277. # [09:31] <Hixie> which problem?
  278. # [09:32] <sbuluf> the problem of indicating, in some way, big, commonly used, "funtionality blocks" in sites/webpages
  279. # [09:32] <sbuluf> such as navigation, main content, search box, etc
  280. # [09:33] <sbuluf> the kind of thing people call "blocks" in CMS's
  281. # [09:35] <sbuluf> wasn't that what the predefined classes were about, roughly?
  282. # [09:35] <Hixie> oh, sorry, i thought we were still talking about the role thing :-)
  283. # [09:35] <Hixie> there was no problem for predefined classes
  284. # [09:35] <Hixie> that's why we dropped them
  285. # [09:36] <sbuluf> i thought your main reason was the risk of breaking existing content
  286. # [09:36] <Hixie> no
  287. # [09:36] <Hixie> it wouldn't break anything
  288. # [09:37] <sbuluf> given that you were reserving some names, in a namespace that was unregulated before
  289. # [09:37] <Hixie> yeah but since they didn't do anything in practice, it didn't matter
  290. # [09:37] <Hixie> anyway, i should go home
  291. # [09:37] <sbuluf> later
  292. # [09:37] <Hixie> later
  293. # [09:40] * sbuluf just realizes...
  294. # [09:41] <sbuluf> how could they ever do anything, if they did not even exist before?
  295. # [09:42] <sbuluf> meaning, anyone can use a class name, sure. but therre was never generic agreement of anyone who impulsed it as a new functionality
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The end :)