/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon May 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  5. # [08:34] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  10. # [10:43] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  16. # [11:06] <glazou> hello
  17. # [11:06] <glazou> anne: I just hit in my FullerScreen extension for firefox a case where I need html5 scoped stylesheets...
  18. # [11:08] <anne> implement it! :)
  19. # [11:08] <glazou> that's not difficult
  20. # [11:08] <glazou> BUT
  21. # [11:08] <glazou> the spec misses one important thing
  22. # [11:08] <glazou> what about the specificity of scoped rules ?
  23. # [11:09] <anne> I think that's not affected
  24. # [11:09] <glazou> IMHO, the spec of a scoped selector should be increased by an ID selector's specificity
  25. # [11:09] <glazou> otherwise scoped styles are not specific enough
  26. # [11:11] <glazou> anne: I also read the Wysiwyg Editing section
  27. # [11:11] <anne> if you have p { margin:10px } in your linked style sheet and p { margin:20px } in your scoped it will win
  28. # [11:12] <glazou> is :root matching the p in the scoped sheet ?
  29. # [11:12] <anne> no
  30. # [11:13] <anne> " If the attribute is present, then the user agent must only apply the specified style information to the style element's parent element (if any), and that element's child nodes. Otherwise, the specified styles must, if applied, be applied to the entire document."
  31. # [11:13] <anne> so :root would match the root element of the document and would therefore be "ignored" during scoping...
  32. # [11:14] <glazou> then it's not true scoping
  33. # [11:14] <glazou> in true scoping, nothing can apply outside of the subtree
  34. # [11:14] <glazou> the outside just does not exist
  35. # [11:14] <glazou> the subtree is the "local" tree for the scoped sheet
  36. # [11:14] <anne> it's not your definition of "true scoping" maybe
  37. # [11:15] <glazou> well, if you don't do that, then you need to know at least the element type of the subtree's root to style it !
  38. # [11:15] <glazou> BUT
  39. # [11:15] <anne> why?
  40. # [11:15] <glazou> if :root applies to it, then your scoped sheet can be generic
  41. # [11:16] <glazou> how do you style the root of the subtree and only that element without :root if you don't know its element type ?
  42. # [11:16] <anne> what's the use case for that?
  43. # [11:16] <glazou> web 2.0
  44. # [11:16] <anne> not a use case
  45. # [11:16] <glazou> creating stuff in a doc
  46. # [11:16] <glazou> fullerscreen extension
  47. # [11:16] <glazou> creating a slidemanager in the doc tree
  48. # [11:17] <anne> these are not specific enough...
  49. # [11:17] <anne> when wouldn't you know the "root" element type?
  50. # [11:17] <glazou> not necessarily if it is created by the user
  51. # [11:17] <glazou> in an editable doc
  52. # [11:18] * glazou needs to run, bbiab
  53. # [11:18] <anne> <section><style scoped> p { margin:2em } </style><p>2em margin</p></section>
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  57. # [11:25] <sbuluf> (what's scoped styles?)
  58. # [11:35] <Dashiva> They apply only to the subtree they appear in
  59. # [11:35] <anne> see my sample above
  60. # [11:36] <anne> <section><style scoped> p { margin:2em } </style><p>2em margin</p></section><p>default margin</p>
  61. # [11:36] <anne> would be a better example
  62. # [11:36] <sbuluf> styles that apply just to a part of a document? scoped, as in scope?
  63. # [11:37] <krijnh> Isn't p { margin: 1em; } section p { margin: 2em; } better separation?
  64. # [11:37] <anne> sbuluf, yes
  65. # [11:37] <sbuluf> (english is not my native tongue)
  66. # [11:37] <sbuluf> thanks, anne, dashiva
  67. # [11:38] <anne> krijnh, depends on what you want
  68. # [11:38] <krijnh> anne: Your example would be pretty much the same as inline styles?
  69. # [11:39] <anne> except that you can provide media specific style sheets and alternate style sheets with scoped style sheets
  70. # [11:39] <anne> which is why they are pretty useful
  71. # [11:39] <anne> (and also stuff like a:hover {} etc.)
  72. # [11:40] <krijnh> "a:hover is behavior and should be done with JS" ;p
  73. # [11:41] <anne> "<i> is presentation and is better done using <span class=italic>"
  74. # [11:41] <krijnh> :)
  75. # [11:41] <anne> fortunately it's not all black and white
  76. # [11:42] <krijnh> You can also @import stylesheets inside scoped blocks?
  77. # [11:43] <anne> yeah
  78. # [11:44] <krijnh> Cool
  79. # [11:46] * karl wonders if style elements found in the body is not put back in the head by browsers?
  80. # [11:47] <anne> only in Firefox
  81. # [11:47] <anne> iirc
  82. # [11:47] <karl> like meta name ?
  83. # [11:48] <anne> <meta>, <link>, etc. are put in <head> by more browsers (and also by HTML5)
  84. # [11:49] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  85. # [11:49] <karl> hmm that would be good to have a test table for all head elements that are in the body and
  86. # [11:49] <karl> test which browsers does what.
  87. # [11:49] <karl> s/s//
  88. # [11:49] <anne> we have a spec now which is based on what browsers do
  89. # [11:50] <anne> you can use http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/ to get results for browsers pretty easily
  90. # [11:50] <karl> anne: I prefer to see what browsers do. :)
  91. # [11:50] <karl> ah cool
  92. # [11:50] <karl> that is helpful,
  93. # [11:51] <anne> it seems that IE7 and O9 don't move <link> and <meta>
  94. # [11:51] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [11:51] <anne> not sure why HTML5 does
  96. # [11:53] <karl> :) ah interesting
  97. # [11:53] <karl> it means that the meta of rdfa was a viable solution
  98. # [11:53] <anne> rdfa isn't though :)
  99. # [11:53] <karl> rdfa == microformats
  100. # [11:54] <anne> hah
  101. # [11:54] <karl> ;)
  102. # [11:54] <karl> style is put back in the head in Camino
  103. # [11:54] <anne> yeah, Firefox moves stuff around
  104. # [11:55] <karl> same for safari
  105. # [11:55] <anne> including <meta> and <link>
  106. # [11:55] <anne> wow, Safari too?
  107. # [11:55] <karl> <!DOCTYPE html>
  108. # [11:55] <karl> <html>
  109. # [11:55] <karl> <head><title></title></head>
  110. # [11:55] <karl> <body>
  111. # [11:55] <karl> <meta name="foo" content="bar"/>
  112. # [11:55] <karl> <style></style>
  113. # [11:55] <karl> </body>
  114. # [11:55] <karl> </html>
  115. # [11:55] <karl> I'm testing this
  116. # [11:55] <mjs> good evening gentlemen
  117. # [11:55] <karl> yes Safari too. It goes to head
  118. # [11:56] <karl> I can't test for IE and Opera
  119. # [11:56] <sbuluf> i might be missing something, but i don't even understand the whole concept of "browser moves element". the original doc in some server remains the same. what's the use of moving an element just locally?
  120. # [11:57] <anne> IE7 and O9 don't move things around
  121. # [11:57] <karl> sbuluf: in the dom
  122. # [11:57] <mjs> Opera doesn't tend to make an implicit head when called for
  123. # [11:57] <karl> you see anne that would be good to have a table
  124. # [11:57] <mjs> Safari moves style elements to head, but I am not sure that's right
  125. # [11:57] <mjs> we need to support style elements in the body anyway I think
  126. # [11:58] <anne> yeah
  127. # [11:58] <anne> IE7 doesn't move <style>, <meta> and <link>
  128. # [11:58] <karl> hehe
  129. # [11:58] <anne> karl, feel free to make a table
  130. # [11:58] * anne e-mails the WHATWG
  131. # [11:58] <karl> yep on my todo.
  132. # [12:01] <anne> I also think </head> should always be ignored
  133. # [12:01] <anne> makes cases like <head></head><link><body> easier to handle
  134. # [12:01] <anne> in fact, if you do that I wonder if you still have to move elements around...
  135. # [12:02] <anne> not moving stuff around would be nice :)
  136. # [12:02] <karl> I'm making test files
  137. # [12:05] <sbuluf> today i was wondering if there was overlap between canvas and forms
  138. # [12:06] <sbuluf> i don't know enough to comment even half-meaningfully, however. they simply both appear to have some "semi-acriptable gui" part to them
  139. # [12:07] <anne> all HTML elements have a scriptable interface...
  140. # [12:09] <karl> huh...
  141. # [12:09] <anne> e-mailed the suggestion about </head>
  142. # [12:09] <karl> <!ENTITY % head.misc "SCRIPT|STYLE|META|LINK|OBJECT" -- repeatable head elements -->
  143. # [12:09] <karl> Object in head?
  144. # [12:09] <anne> that's dropped
  145. # [12:10] <anne> i think it was for allowed for extensions or something
  146. # [12:10] <karl> I'm discovering
  147. # [12:10] <anne> maybe similar to <bgsound>
  148. # [12:10] <karl> I wonder what was the use case
  149. # [12:10] <karl> ah ok
  150. # [12:14] <anne> mjs, which elements would need to be moved?
  151. # [12:14] * anne replies on list too
  152. # [12:15] <anne> replied*...
  153. # [12:16] <mjs> anne: well, if you don't move head-specific elements in the body, then there's no need to move anything - I replied before reading your other message
  154. # [12:16] <mjs> anne: for conformance checking, it would presumably still be an error for any head-specific elements to be in the body, or for any elements to be between head and body if both are explicit
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  158. # [12:31] <anne> yeah, conformance checking might be harder if you want to ignore </head>
  159. # [12:32] <karl> very interesting results
  160. # [12:32] <karl> so far
  161. # [12:32] <karl> in the process of publishing
  162. # [12:32] <karl> my network sucks a bit right now. very slpw
  163. # [12:32] <karl> slow
  164. # [12:32] <anne> please include tests like </head><link><body>
  165. # [12:32] <anne> yeah, France...
  166. # [12:32] <karl> :) ah that would be another series
  167. # [12:33] <karl> anne: not France, but countryside
  168. # [12:38] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-head-body.xhtml if someone can send me the results for Opera and IE with the exact version numbers.
  169. # [12:39] <karl> hmm I have forgotten meta
  170. # [12:41] <karl> fixing the test file
  171. # [12:41] <anne> update http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-head-body.xhtml,access please
  172. # [12:41] <karl> and then the results in the table
  173. # [12:41] <karl> good point ;)
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  175. # [12:51] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-html401.html - Test file
  176. # [12:51] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-head-body.xhtml - Results
  177. # [12:51] <karl> writing an email to public-html
  178. # [12:53] <anne> Opera keeps everything in the DOM the way you wrote it
  179. # [12:54] <anne> <title> has display none
  180. # [12:54] <anne> IE7 does so too except that it drops <title> from the DOM
  181. # [12:54] <karl> interesting
  182. # [13:01] <karl> sent to the list.
  183. # [13:01] <karl> anne, please send your results replying to my message when it hits the list.
  184. # [13:01] <anne> I'm afraid I won't be the only one
  185. # [13:02] <anne> besides, I already told whatwg@whatwg.org what needs to be done...
  186. # [13:03] <karl> what needs to be done, is not the tests :) two different things
  187. # [13:17] <anne> What Opera does seems pretty straightforward here...
  188. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> Are there known issues when printing from IE of a page with images referenced through CSS?
  189. # [13:19] <MikeSmith> problem being the IE doesn't print them?
  190. # [13:20] <anne> You mean 'background'?
  191. # [13:20] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah; like this: "background: white url(W3C) no-repeat top left;"
  192. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> as used on http://www.w3.org/Mobile/
  193. # [13:21] <MikeSmith> IE fails to print the W3C and Mobile Web Initiative logos on that page
  194. # [13:22] <anne> Does any browser preserve it?
  195. # [13:22] <MikeSmith> opera does ...
  196. # [13:23] <anne> hmm ok
  197. # [13:23] <anne> I thought background was mostly ignored when printing
  198. # [13:23] <anne> because it might require lots of ink
  199. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> FF doesn't ...
  200. # [13:24] <anne> ah ok
  201. # [13:24] <anne> guess my recollection was from before my Opera days :)
  202. # [13:25] <MikeSmith> I'd try it in Safari, but my Webkit/Safari is refusing to connect to anything right now ...
  203. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> anyway, I guess the answer is that one can't rely on browsers printing CSS background
  204. # [13:27] <anne> imagine the background would be a simple pattern
  205. # [13:27] <anne> or black or something
  206. # [13:27] <anne> would you like to waste ink on that?
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  208. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> anne - yeah, I understand the rationale for that being the default. just that a browser should provide an option for overriding it
  209. # [13:29] <MikeSmith> which FF does
  210. # [13:30] <MikeSmith> Page Setup/Print Background
  211. # [13:31] <anne> right
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  213. # [13:32] <tH> ie6 has it in options/advanced, don't know about 7
  214. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> tH - found in it IE 7 in Internet Options/Advanced/Printing
  215. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> not terrifically intuitive or at-point-of-use though
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  219. # [14:20] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-head-body.xhtml updated.
  220. # [14:20] <karl> thanks anne, dao
  221. # [14:30] <anne> what dao pointed out didn't seem like a fix just for <style> though
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  223. # [14:34] <karl> yep the bug report is not clear for the resolution
  224. # [14:34] <karl> they seem to say at a point that they want to stop to move the tags to the head
  225. # [14:34] <karl> but there's no clear resolution
  226. # [14:35] <anne> there's a patch though
  227. # [14:43] <karl> jdandrea: I have added your screenshots to the page. Thanks.
  228. # [14:43] <karl> See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/dom-head-body.xhtml
  229. # [14:45] <karl> I wonder what is happening with icab http://dev.joesapt.net/w3c/head-elements-wrong/iCab%203.0.3.png
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  232. # [14:56] <jdandrea> karl: you're welcome! you might want to remove bizarre.png :)
  233. # [14:56] <jdandrea> (if not already)
  234. # [14:56] <jdandrea> ah, it's linked - I removed it.
  235. # [14:57] <zcorpan_> karl: you may want to test the same thing but in quirks mode
  236. # [14:58] <anne> i hope quirks mode parsing is the same...
  237. # [14:59] * jdandrea should have made a macos and win32 directory
  238. # [14:59] <jdandrea> karl: I wasn't sure about iCab either, but I blitzed through it. Let me check it more closely ...
  239. # [15:00] <zcorpan_> isn't testing one gecko 1.8 browser enough? :)
  240. # [15:00] <jdandrea> zcorpan_: I know, overkill. :)
  241. # [15:01] <karl> zcorpan_: yes I was thinking, that would be better to test engines more than browsers
  242. # [15:01] <karl> I wonder if there is a graph with browsers versions versus engines
  243. # [15:02] <karl> that would help to read results
  244. # [15:02] <jdandrea> This isn't a graph, but ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_browsers
  245. # [15:02] <zcorpan_> the first 3 are gecko 1.8
  246. # [15:03] <jdandrea> or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_layout_engines
  247. # [15:03] <jdandrea> I can adjust the descriptions.
  248. # [15:03] <zcorpan_> shiira is a newer webkit than safari 2
  249. # [15:03] <jdandrea> Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines
  250. # [15:05] <zcorpan_> or wait, i was thinking about swift
  251. # [15:05] <zcorpan_> dunno about shiira
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  254. # [15:16] <jdandrea> karl: One more - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(HTML) (linked on my page)
  255. # [15:16] <Philip`> IE6 doesn't simply remove the second <title> - see e.g. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20HTML%3E%0D%0A%3Chtml%3E%0D%0A%3Chead%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3EOne%3C/title%3E%0D%0A%3C/head%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%20id%3Dt%3ETwo%3C/title%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Ewindow.onload%20%3D%20function%20%28%29%20%7B%20alert%28document.getElementById%28%27t%27%29.innerHTML%29%20%7D%3C/script%3E
  256. # [15:17] <jdandrea> XSS Detected! :)
  257. # [15:17] <Philip`> where it assigns the second title's id to the first title's content
  258. # [15:17] <anne> Philip`, ah, it handles <title> like <html>
  259. # [15:17] <anne> (at a guess(
  260. # [15:18] <anne> although not entirely... :(
  261. # [15:19] <anne> it seems to only copy known attributes
  262. # [15:20] <Philip`> Does it copy any except for id?
  263. # [15:20] <anne> title=, class= but not x=
  264. # [15:21] <anne> no browser seems to copy that though
  265. # [15:21] <anne> and what I thought about <html> only works in Firefox
  266. # [15:22] <anne> and Opera
  267. # [15:23] <anne> browsers are insane
  268. # [15:23] <Philip`> Copies lang too
  269. # [15:24] <anne> yeah, known attributes
  270. # [15:24] <anne> "known"
  271. # [15:24] <karl> [15:27] <anne> browsers are insane
  272. # [15:24] <karl> hmmm yes, let's kill all browsers and use papernet.
  273. # [15:25] <anne> paper has other issues
  274. # [15:26] <Philip`> Paper can't express semantics
  275. # [15:32] * karl is trying to imagine the world we had before computers and is trying to guess what was not semantic
  276. # [15:32] <jdandrea> karl: iCab shows this under DOM view (note 'misparented'): <ul class="domTree"><LI CLASS="t1 misparented"><CODE>BODY</CODE></LI></ul>
  277. # [15:34] <jdandrea> karl: ... which is assigned if this test is false: (node.childNodes[i].parentNode == node)
  278. # [15:35] * jdandrea realizes that's taken out of context, but anyway ...
  279. # [15:35] <anne> oh, iCab has a graph as opposed to a tree?
  280. # [15:35] <anne> interesting
  281. # [15:38] <anne> Is it just me or do people not understand that scope= addresses similar use cases to headers=?
  282. # [15:39] <jdandrea> anne: ah, is that it? a directed graph then.
  283. # [15:39] <karl> anne: maybe it is just a *different* way of looking at same things, more than a wrong/right case.
  284. # [15:44] <Philip`> I wish the Live DOM Viewer worked in Netscape 2
  285. # [15:45] <anne> I wish Netscape 2 is obsolete
  286. # [15:45] <anne> oh wait, it is!
  287. # [15:46] <jdandrea> :)
  288. # [15:47] * jdandrea has to go - bbl (waves)
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  298. # [16:50] <anne> cool, timbl reviewed access-control :)
  299. # [16:50] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2007May/0060.html
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  302. # [17:19] <karl> http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2007/05/xtech_2007/
  303. # [17:21] <anne> yeah, the session was kind of boring
  304. # [17:28] <karl> I didn't think it was boring. More that it was not long enough. Maybe the starting frame was not prepared enough.
  305. # [17:28] <karl> A panel is very difficult to achieve, because there are two things going on
  306. # [17:28] <karl> debate between the panelist
  307. # [17:29] <anne> the subject was to broad
  308. # [17:29] <karl> debate between the panelists and the public
  309. # [17:29] <karl> anne: yes I agree with the topic too broad
  310. # [17:29] <karl> it's why I said "starting frame"
  311. # [17:29] <anne> discussing HTML5, WF2, XHTML2 and XForms in 40 minutes is not doable
  312. # [17:29] <anne> I suppose I should've figured that out before I joined
  313. # [17:29] <karl> exactly
  314. # [17:30] <karl> and roles not well defined.
  315. # [17:30] <karl> This person will talk for html 5
  316. # [17:30] <karl> this one for this
  317. # [17:30] <karl> and so on.
  318. # [17:30] <karl> we learn from our mistakes
  319. # [17:32] <anne> I don't think many browser vendors would agree with his statements btw :)
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  331. # [20:10] <zcorpan_> 444 group participants
  332. # [20:11] * zcorpan_ wonders if it will be 666 some day
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  337. # [20:49] <glazou> karl:ping
  338. # [20:56] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: what do you think member #666 will be like?
  339. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> xhtml2 advocate?
  340. # [20:59] * zcorpan_ hides
  341. # [21:00] <glazou> ROFL
  342. # [21:00] * glazou laughs and laughs
  343. # [21:01] <anne> hehe
  344. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> :)
  345. # [21:04] <glazou> I must admit that reading that ten seconds after appearing into the channel is a lot of fun
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  349. # [21:17] <glazou> BTW, HTML in email workshop : http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/05/21/3578-html-in-email-w3c-workshop-24-jun-2007
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  360. # [21:56] * Joins: DanC (connolly@128.30.52.30)
  361. # [21:57] <DanC> help? I'm outfitting a new machine... running debian, so far. fonts on some pages look crappy. e.g. http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
  362. # [21:57] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242)
  363. # [21:57] <DanC> http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/crummy-fonts2.png
  364. # [21:58] <hasather> DanC: gnome-font-properties maybe
  365. # [21:59] <DanC> no, I tried the antialising settings.
  366. # [21:59] <DanC> the advice I'm getting is to install msttcorefonts. sigh. I was hoping to stay away from non-free for a little while longer
  367. # [22:00] <hasather> oh, sorry, didn't notice it was only on some pages
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  369. # [22:00] <hasather> yea, I get poor looking fonts one in a while too
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  392. # Session Close: Tue May 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)