/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue May 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  19. # [02:39] <schepers> I don't think that citing the Design Principles in arguments on public-html is adding anything to the discussion other than buzzphrase compliance
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  28. # [04:17] <glazou> hello
  29. # [04:17] <mjs> hey glazou
  30. # [04:19] <glazou> mjs: hey !
  31. # [04:20] <glazou> I have one question for you
  32. # [04:20] <glazou> very raw
  33. # [04:20] <glazou> don't you think public-html@w3.org is a gigantic mess ?
  34. # [04:21] <mjs> well, I haven't seen much evidence of productive effort on it so far, but a few conversations did lead to improved understanding
  35. # [04:21] <glazou> you worked in a Foreign Affairs ministry in the past ?
  36. # [04:22] <mjs> no :-)
  37. # [04:22] <glazou> I'm asking because I love your diplomatic way of saying harsh things
  38. # [04:23] <Hixie> hey now, the html working group has made more progress in the few months since its inception than most other w3c working groups do in their entire chartered lifetime
  39. # [04:23] <glazou> is this supposed to be some sort of compliment ?-)
  40. # [04:23] <Hixie> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8
  41. # [04:23] * glazou has a big stomach-ache and is a bit cynical tonight
  42. # [04:24] <glazou> Hixie: BTW, I have no idea if someone from google will attend the html in email workshop...
  43. # [04:25] <glazou> I just love when people say "yeah, this is just great, thanks for organizing but we can't come"
  44. # [04:25] <Hixie> the diff of the amount of actual work done in the html working group over the last two wooks is over 3000 lines long
  45. # [04:25] <Hixie> glazou: no idea
  46. # [04:25] <glazou> Hixie: rofl
  47. # [04:25] <Hixie> s/wooks/weeks/
  48. # [04:26] <Hixie> 35 separate checkins to the HTML spec
  49. # [04:26] <glazou> Hixie: remind me the usual resuly of a division by zero ?-)
  50. # [04:26] <Hixie> oh wait, your original comment was about public-html.
  51. # [04:26] <glazou> result even
  52. # [04:26] <Hixie> yes, public-html is a gigantic mess with no productivity
  53. # [04:26] <Hixie> sorry, thought you were asking about the spec
  54. # [04:26] <Hixie> my bad
  55. # [04:26] <Hixie> :-D
  56. # [04:26] <glazou> oh no
  57. # [04:26] <glazou> the spec are only a little mess :-)
  58. # [04:26] <glazou> (kidding)
  59. # [04:27] <Hixie> when was the decision made, thursday 10th?
  60. # [04:27] <Hixie> 11 days ago?
  61. # [04:27] <glazou> Hixie: see my blog, the last "html wg fun" entry
  62. # [04:27] <Hixie> that's about 3 checkins a day i guess
  63. # [04:27] <Hixie> not bad, all things told
  64. # [04:28] * Hixie looks
  65. # [04:29] <mjs> I'd like to see productive review on public-html but honestly I've overflowed my quota for politicking and mainling list project management for the next couple of months
  66. # [04:29] <mjs> I would like to see the chairs handle some of the next steps
  67. # [04:29] <Hixie> "mainling"?
  68. # [04:29] <Hixie> hey, chris wilson posted today
  69. # [04:29] <mjs> *mailing
  70. # [04:29] <Hixie> ah, mailing
  71. # [04:29] <glazou> mjs: last wednesday, during Xtech, Molly asked me how many mails we had in public-html since start. 3899...
  72. # [04:30] <glazou> I call that a Shelby Moore Award
  73. # [04:30] <mjs> glazou: ouch
  74. # [04:30] <glazou> mjs: exactly
  75. # [04:31] <glazou> mjs: totally unmanageable and largely unreadable
  76. # [04:31] <Hixie> no
  77. # [04:31] <Hixie> not totally unmanageable
  78. # [04:31] <Hixie> totally unmanagED
  79. # [04:31] <Hixie> big difference
  80. # [04:31] <glazou> and I think DanC said it during the AC meeting
  81. # [04:31] <glazou> Hixie: i stand corrected
  82. # [04:31] <Hixie> we have 1.7 times more people on the whatwg list
  83. # [04:31] <Hixie> and the whatwg list is fine
  84. # [04:31] <DanC> yeah, the mailing list is a mess. I though I'd get some energy to organize discussion last week... maybe this week
  85. # [04:32] <glazou> hi DanC
  86. # [04:32] <Philip`> That was 3.9K messages in about 2.5 months, and that whatwg list had the same number in the past 7 months, so it's not that extreme a difference in numbers
  87. # [04:32] <Philip`> s/that/the/
  88. # [04:32] <glazou> there's a BIG difference Philip`
  89. # [04:33] <Hixie> Philip`: the difference being the whatwg list discussion is much more focussed
  90. # [04:33] <Hixie> even when it's high-traffic
  91. # [04:33] <glazou> we're going nowhere in public-html discussions
  92. # [04:33] <Hixie> e.g. you never have +1s in whatwg
  93. # [04:33] <Hixie> mind you
  94. # [04:33] <glazou> when what-wg discussions are technical chats on a spec
  95. # [04:33] <Hixie> i'm not complaining
  96. # [04:33] <glazou> +1 :-)
  97. # [04:33] <Philip`> I'd say public-html vs public-xhtml2 was a big difference - it's not so bad when it's not even an order of magnitude :-)
  98. # [04:33] <Hixie> like i said, we've had 35 spec revisions in the last 11 days alone
  99. # [04:33] <Hixie> so i'm quite happy at our progress
  100. # [04:34] <DanC> were any of those 35 prompted by public-html mail?
  101. # [04:34] <Hixie> nope, most were prompted by mails and bugzilla comments from 2005 so far
  102. # [04:34] * glazou reads xhtml2 and coughs
  103. # [04:35] <Hixie> i'm currently dealing with comment 4 on mozilla bug 300270, which is dated Sun, 10 Jul 2005
  104. # [04:35] <DanC> I'd like to have a few more people in place to help with issues list maintenance before I encourage spec review. anne, you were nominated. I wonder if you're interested.
  105. # [04:35] * Hixie has a long way to go before he'll be dealing with public-html feedback, if he does the feedback chronologically
  106. # [04:35] * Hixie assumes anne is sleeping, since it's 4:40am in CET
  107. # [04:36] <Hixie> or is it 3:30
  108. # [04:36] <Hixie> i have two clocks here and they disagree
  109. # [04:36] <Hixie> oops
  110. # [04:36] <Hixie> anyway
  111. # [04:36] <glazou> Hixie: I live in same time zone and I'm not sleeping...
  112. # [04:36] <Philip`> It's 3:40 in BST (which reminds me, I ought to go to sleep too) so it'll be 4:40 in CET
  113. # [04:36] <glazou> 04:40am here
  114. # [04:37] <Hixie> glazou: you have kids ;-)
  115. # [04:37] * DanC wonders what brings dbaron by just now...
  116. # [04:37] <glazou> DanC: how was Banff ?
  117. # [04:37] <DanC> banff was awesome.
  118. # [04:37] <dbaron> just now?
  119. # [04:37] <DanC> oh... several hours ago
  120. # [04:38] <glazou> Hixie: that's a bad excuse ; a gf is much better excuse to be awake at 04:40am ;-)
  121. # [04:38] <DanC> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dckc/tags/banff/
  122. # [04:38] <dbaron> joining then only because my wireless connection dropped a few hours earlier and I didn't notice for a bit...
  123. # [04:38] <Hixie> glazou: to my knowledge he doesn't have one of those either ;-)
  124. # [04:38] <glazou> DanC: good stuff in the conf ?
  125. # [04:39] <DanC> yes, that too. http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/194
  126. # [04:39] <glazou> looking
  127. # [04:39] * Hixie goes to get dinner
  128. # [04:40] <glazou> Hixie: lol
  129. # [04:42] <DanC> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/19/Ruby-HTML5-Parser-Tests-Pass
  130. # [04:42] <DanC> anybody else following that work?
  131. # [04:42] <DanC> that might get me to learn ruby
  132. # [04:42] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161)
  133. # [04:43] <glazou> DanC: wooof, not HTML I hope ?-)
  134. # [04:43] <glazou> hyatt!
  135. # [04:44] <hyatt> hi
  136. # [04:44] * DanC doesn't get glazou's joke
  137. # [04:44] <glazou> hyatt,mjs: is the rendering engine in the apple email client webkit ?
  138. # [04:44] <glazou> DanC: nm
  139. # [04:45] <mjs> glazou: yes
  140. # [04:45] <glazou> ok, cool, thanks
  141. # [04:45] <hyatt> ?
  142. # [04:45] <hyatt> yeah it's webkit
  143. # [04:45] <dbaron> So today I learned that AC reps can be forced to join a PAG for a spec they don't care about. (At least they can't force me to attend the telecon; I won't even be awake!) I've made the mental note to be more insistent about the substantial support aspect of consensus (in addition to the no objections aspect).
  144. # [04:46] <hyatt> how can an ac rep be forced to join anything
  145. # [04:46] <hyatt> just don't show up :)
  146. # [04:46] <mjs> dbaron: you can be nominated involuntarily?
  147. # [04:46] <dbaron> and force-subscribed to the mailing list
  148. # [04:46] <glazou> that happens all the time in the french army :)
  149. # [04:46] <dbaron> I *can* procmail it to /dev/null, though
  150. # [04:46] * DanC puts on his I'm-not-listening-to-you-jeffrey earplugs at the mention of PAGs
  151. # [04:47] <mjs> I did not know one could be drafted
  152. # [04:47] <mjs> I guess I'm lucky not to be Apple's AC Rep
  153. # [04:48] <dbaron> It's really just one more mailing list to ignore.
  154. # [04:50] <glazou> I think we miss html-fortunes.w3.org
  155. # [04:50] <DanC> glazou, you have experience with bugzilla, yes? are you willing to help with issue tracking as we boot an HTML WG spec review?
  156. # [04:51] <DanC> hmm... perhaps playground process is the way to go... 1... 2... 3.... NOT IT!
  157. # [04:53] <glazou> DanC: I can do that, but not this week ; far too busy
  158. # [04:53] <DanC> is next week any better?
  159. # [04:54] <glazou> office work, workshop, and personal issues
  160. # [04:54] <glazou> yes
  161. # [04:54] <DanC> cool.
  162. # [04:55] <glazou> let me ping you back on that on friday, after the workshop, ok ?
  163. # [04:55] <DanC> sure
  164. # [04:55] <glazou> thx
  165. # [04:56] * glazou grumbles something about håkon, media queries and test suite
  166. # [04:57] <DanC> dbaron, are you interested to help shape the review discussion, and put stuff that Hixie can't get to right away into http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=HTML+WG ?
  167. # [04:57] <glazou> I will always wonder why plenary meetings occur in boston in november or december and never in may, when the weather is ok...
  168. # [04:58] <DanC> cuz May is taken by the WWW conference series
  169. # [04:58] <glazou> and september ?
  170. # [04:58] <DanC> I'm not sure why not september. I know boston hotels are particularly expensive then
  171. # [04:58] <dbaron> glazou, the weather in Boston is not always ok in may -- it can be 10C (CSS meeting, late May 2004), or 35C.
  172. # [04:59] <dbaron> november is far better than march, though
  173. # [04:59] <DanC> hyatt, any thoughts on constructive ways to start spec review in the HTML WG?
  174. # [04:59] <glazou> dbaron: I still remember the freezing -23C when we were in same hotel, 10 minutes away from the sonesta
  175. # [05:00] <Hixie> ah, fond memories of being in boston and seeing it snow INDOORS.
  176. # [05:00] <Hixie> crazy city
  177. # [05:00] * glazou laughs
  178. # [05:00] <dbaron> Hixie's talking about the Airport stop on the blue line, which is a subway station, and not exactly indoors
  179. # [05:00] <Hixie> in europe we know how to build rooves that keep things like snow outside! :-P
  180. # [05:00] <hyatt> we could just go section by section
  181. # [05:00] <glazou> it's because we think to strongly, humidity condenses above us and it snows
  182. # [05:00] <glazou> too
  183. # [05:00] <DanC> it looks like the tech plenary has never been in November before. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html
  184. # [05:00] <hyatt> ideally building up issues in parallel
  185. # [05:01] <hyatt> but then focusing on individual sections each week or something
  186. # [05:01] <dbaron> DanC, I really have less and less time these days...
  187. # [05:01] <DanC> roger, dbaron
  188. # [05:01] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  189. # [05:02] <DanC> hyatt, right... ok... so that's roughly what I've been thinking. some suggested starting with the parsing section; Hixie and others suggest started with 8.1. "writing HTML documents" instead. I'm not totally convinced that we shouldn't start with section 1. After all, that's where the document suggests that readers start.
  190. # [05:03] <hyatt> starting at the beginning seems reasonable to me :)
  191. # [05:03] <DanC> dbaron, does mozilla have any near-term or medium-term milestones that you'd like to see the W3C HTML WG achieve?
  192. # [05:04] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.96.131) (Quit: mjs)
  193. # [05:04] * DanC is starting to get nervous about the june 1st publication milestone
  194. # [05:04] * glazou is surprised DanC get nervous about it only now
  195. # [05:04] <glazou> gets
  196. # [05:04] <Hixie> what is there to get nervous about?
  197. # [05:05] <DanC> the WG has to decide something again. it was no fun last time.
  198. # [05:05] <DanC> I thought we could agree to publish the design principles stuff, but that discussion got messy enough that I tuned out.
  199. # [05:06] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  200. # [05:06] <hyatt> we can always flag any sections of HTML5 that are "unreviewed"
  201. # [05:06] <DanC> maybe people will be less hesitant to publish HTML5
  202. # [05:06] <DanC> the question is whether any sort of flagging is going to suffice
  203. # [05:07] * DanC tries to think happy, cooperative thoughts
  204. # [05:07] <Hixie> it's a FPWD, i'd just publish it and move on
  205. # [05:07] <Hixie> but maybe the W3C makes things more complicated
  206. # [05:07] <Hixie> at the WHATWG we used to have snapshot drafts
  207. # [05:07] <Hixie> but eventually i stopped
  208. # [05:07] <Hixie> it seemed pointless given that all the drafts were always in public
  209. # [05:08] <Hixie> it's not like closed WGs where the heartbeat requirement is needed to prove things are happening
  210. # [05:09] <Hixie> we have a twitter account, a public commit-watchers mailing list, a cvs repo, a public svn history viewer, and an svn repo all available for people to look at if they want to see us making progress
  211. # [05:09] <glazou> Hixie: snapshot drafts are good for the press
  212. # [05:09] <DanC> the heartbeat ritual works sorta the other way in cases like ours: it gives folks that are following from a distance a chance to get current without reading thousands of messages
  213. # [05:10] <glazou> Hixie: your twitter account is the very first time I see twitter being useful even a little bit
  214. # [05:10] <DanC> but I do hope that from your perspective, Hixie , it will largely be a non-event
  215. # [05:10] <Hixie> DanC: none of the things i listed there require being subscribed to the public-html list :-)
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  217. # [05:11] <Hixie> let alone reading it
  218. # [05:11] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@24.6.91.161) (Client exited)
  219. # [05:11] <Hixie> glazou: yeah, really
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  221. # [05:12] * DanC dons I'm-not-listening-to-you-jeffry earplugs again at the mention of twitter
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  223. # [05:13] * glazou genocides the first mosquito of the season
  224. # [05:13] <DanC> maybe I'll start a WBS strawpoll soonish... which of the following do you want the HTML WG to publish in June? (a) then-current html5 spec (b) design principles (c) other?
  225. # [05:14] <glazou> Hixie: have you seen my fullerscreen extension for ff ?
  226. # [05:14] <DanC> (d) some test materials/plans
  227. # [05:14] <Hixie> glazou: what does it do?
  228. # [05:14] * DanC read about fullerscreen
  229. # [05:14] <glazou> Hixie: real full screen (but that's useless here) and slideshow mode in html
  230. # [05:14] <glazou> I am using 3 meta elements to select slides, titles in slides and steps in slides
  231. # [05:14] <Hixie> given the size of my screens, full screen doesn't work so well for me :-)
  232. # [05:15] <glazou> they hold a CSS selector
  233. # [05:15] * Hixie often has to make his browser windows smaller to be able to read the web pages :-)
  234. # [05:15] <DanC> I spent a lot of hours futzing with slidey in preparation for some recent conferences. I think I'm gonna try OpenOffice soon.
  235. # [05:15] * Hixie mumbles something about Keynote
  236. # [05:15] <DanC> Keynote looks like crack.
  237. # [05:16] <Hixie> in what sense?
  238. # [05:16] <DanC> dangerous. I use a mac, but I don't rely on any mac-specific features. I live a purposefully multi-platform life.
  239. # [05:16] * Hixie has a mac, a linux box, and a pc next to him right now
  240. # [05:16] <Hixie> but for presentations, nothing beats Keynote.
  241. # [05:16] <Hixie> well, nothing but MPEG4, i guess
  242. # [05:17] <DanC> just like nothing beat powerpoing until a few years ago. no thanks ;-)
  243. # [05:17] <DanC> powerpoint
  244. # [05:17] <Hixie> :-)
  245. # [05:18] <Hixie> (i never re-use slides, so vendor lockin isn't an issue for me for presentations)
  246. # [05:18] <glazou> you don't reuse, but some people may want to read them again ?
  247. # [05:18] <Hixie> (and the slides i do use make no sense on their own, they're just backup for me, so they don't help anyone else either)
  248. # [05:18] <glazou> ah
  249. # [05:18] <Hixie> that's where MPEG4 comes in
  250. # [05:18] <glazou> these are not real slides then
  251. # [05:18] <Hixie> they're not bullet points, no
  252. # [05:19] <Hixie> they're one word, a picture, a simple graph, that kind of thing
  253. # [05:19] <Hixie> whatever i need to make my point
  254. # [05:19] <glazou> real slides include an image of a plastic duck
  255. # [05:39] <MikeSmith> can generate PDF slides from HTML using Prince ... then can even show timed presentation (auto slide transitions at N seconds) with kdpf (don't think acrobat reader can do that)
  256. # [05:40] <MikeSmith> good way to do 20x20 aka PechaKucha presentations (20 slides, 20 seconds each)
  257. # [05:42] <glazou> this makes my 4 slides in a 3 minutes lightning talk a very long speech
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  272. # [06:56] <mjs> hi everyone!
  273. # [06:56] <zcorpan_> mjs: heya
  274. # [06:56] <mjs> hello zcorpan_
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  276. # [06:57] * zcorpan_ can't sleep :|
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  278. # [06:57] <zcorpan_> i came up with a possible dubious use-case for <tt>
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  281. # [06:57] <zcorpan_> s/possible/possibly/
  282. # [06:58] <zcorpan_> "code" that should be translated or spell-checked (like any other text)
  283. # [06:58] <zcorpan_> e.g. peudo-code or text content in comments, strings or markup
  284. # [06:59] <zcorpan_> when used inline in a paragraph
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  286. # [06:59] <mjs> sounds dubious
  287. # [06:59] <zcorpan_> yeah
  288. # [07:00] <zcorpan_> especially if translators and spell-checkers translate and spell-check <code> anyway
  289. # [07:01] <zcorpan_> though it's already possible without <tt>, using <pre>
  290. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> mjs - you were missed at XTech ... and you missed some Good Times -- anne and hsivonen and jgraham and karl and I tore up the town
  291. # [07:15] * MikeSmith murmers the word "Heloise" ...
  292. # [07:16] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  293. # [07:17] <mjs> MikeSmith: I'm glad you guys found a way to go on without me
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  299. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> mjs - Guido Grassel did a good presentation on how they had used the webkit engine on the S60 to drive a UI for a contact-book app that closely matched the native S60 UI in look-and-feel and the integrated with Web content (Google Maps)
  300. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> one issue that came up in other discussion there was lack of XBL support in Webkit
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  303. # [08:29] <mjs> MikeSmith: we're certainly thinking about it
  304. # [08:29] <zcorpan_> xbl2 would be nice :)
  305. # [08:35] <mjs> lots of things would be nice
  306. # [08:35] <gavin_> I want a pony
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  324. # [10:15] <anne> I don't think I volunteered for issue tracking DanC
  325. # [10:15] <anne> But I may be mistaken I suppose :)
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  351. # [13:34] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.xml - I do agree that page is quite amusing (at least when loaded in Firefox)
  352. # [13:37] * Quits: inimino (inimino@75.71.88.233) (Ping timeout)
  353. # [13:44] <anne> hehe
  354. # [13:45] <anne> seems that we simply ignore the MIME type
  355. # [13:54] <Philip`> If I understand correctly, that means you do not respect Web architecture constraints that promote shared understanding and security.
  356. # [13:54] <Philip`> which is presumably a bad thing, compared to an error message
  357. # [13:54] <Dashiva> Shared understanding of bad server configurations
  358. # [13:55] <anne> the guys "inventing" the web architecture don't really get the actual web arcthitecture constraints I think
  359. # [13:56] <anne> such as deployed content and software
  360. # [14:36] <zcorpan_> opera says http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning.xsl is text/xml
  361. # [14:37] <zcorpan_> the server says Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
  362. # [14:55] <Dashiva> Let me guess, you loaded a page including that earlier?
  363. # [14:55] <zcorpan_> yeah
  364. # [14:56] <zcorpan_> a reload results in text/html
  365. # [14:56] <Dashiva> Then it's an unrelated cache issue. It's treated as text/xml in that page, and opera remembers that (incorrectly)
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  369. # [16:11] <gavin> I thought the message with subject "eleding, sag, seribute" was spam
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  382. # [17:44] <annevk-t60> .... test
  383. # [17:45] <gavin> PASS
  384. # [17:45] <annevk-t60> so it seems :)
  385. # [17:45] * annevk-t60 tries getting used to tiny fonts
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  437. # Session Close: Wed May 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)