/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  35. # [08:31] * MikeSmith wishes all browser has an Inspect Element option (to call up DOM inspector on a specific element)
  36. # [08:31] <MikeSmith> Web Inspector UI and features are very nice to have
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  50. # [10:50] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2007AprJun/0145.html
  51. # [10:52] <anne> lol
  52. # [10:52] <hsivonen> what does the html-cg do in general these days?
  53. # [10:52] <anne> "coordination"
  54. # [10:53] <anne> It connects more than just HTML, XForms and XHTML2
  55. # [10:53] <hsivonen> with the year-in-uri schema, I have a hard time finding the latest info on html-cg
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  57. # [10:53] <hsivonen> scheme even
  58. # [10:54] <anne> Not really
  59. # [10:54] <anne> Use http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/latest
  60. # [10:54] <hsivonen> anne: I meant current charter and stuff
  61. # [10:55] * hsivonen found the right thing to google for
  62. # [10:55] <anne> Oh right...
  63. # [10:55] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2006/11/hypertext-cg-charter
  64. # [10:55] * anne got http://www.w3.org/2002/12/HCGcharter.html as first result :)
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  66. # [10:58] * hsivonen also finds http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2007AprJun/0120.html interesting
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  87. # [16:22] <MikeSmith> public-html does not seem to me the ideal place for Dmitry Turin's postings ... the grandness of his visions should be shared with a wider audience -- like on www-html (instead of public-html)
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  89. # [16:25] <anne> it would be nice if he proposed them as changes to HTML5
  90. # [16:26] <anne> instead of "ignoring" implementations and experience build up over the last couple of years
  91. # [16:26] <MikeSmith> it seems pretty obvious he hasn't bothered to read up much
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  107. # [18:38] <h3h> great post Lachy
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  112. # [19:03] <xover> Yes, it clearly demonstrates that anyone with a different opinion must be less experienced at spec writing.
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  122. # [20:45] <MikeSmith> Lachy - if possible and OK with you, can you please add another tag to your "About the HTMLWG" post?
  123. # [20:46] <MikeSmith> .. have a notion that it might be useful to set up a specific HTML5 or HTMLWG feed aggregator
  124. # [20:48] <MikeSmith> so that people who don't have time to read every message on public-html can subscribe to the aggrated feed or just check the aggregator page when they want to see what current status is with the group, what's being/been discussed recently
  125. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> hmm, but do you have a your site set up to generate per-tag feeds? ...
  126. # [20:49] <MikeSmith> or per-Category
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  138. # [23:04] <hyatt> Hixie: ping
  139. # [23:05] <Hixie> hey
  140. # [23:06] <hyatt> Hixie: what is html5's ruling on <style> in random spots in the <body>
  141. # [23:06] <hyatt> is that a parse error?
  142. # [23:07] * hyatt is trying to figure out if he should report an error or a warning
  143. # [23:09] <Hixie> html5 actually allows <style> as a child of quite a few elements
  144. # [23:09] <Hixie> that, in conjunction with a new 'scoped' attribute, allows for scoped stylesheets
  145. # [23:09] <hyatt> so i should make it a warning then
  146. # [23:10] <Hixie> depends what you're trying to do
  147. # [23:10] <hyatt> safari moves those <style> elements to the head
  148. # [23:10] <hyatt> since they apply to the whole doc anyway
  149. # [23:10] <hsivonen> hyatt: does this mean that Safari.next.next will report parse errors?
  150. # [23:10] <hyatt> hsivonen: you can get them right now if you recompile a bit
  151. # [23:11] <hsivonen> hyatt: ooh. cool
  152. # [23:11] <hyatt> hsivonen: but yeah i'm building up a bunch of html error reporting
  153. # [23:11] <hyatt> but it's tricky knowing what is an error :)
  154. # [23:11] <hyatt> and what is just bad practice
  155. # [23:11] <hyatt> i want to report both
  156. # [23:11] <hyatt> error vs. warning basically
  157. # [23:11] <Hixie> well what are you using as a base?
  158. # [23:11] <Hixie> like, what are you reporting errors against?
  159. # [23:11] <hyatt> so far i've limited my set of errors to those that are totally obvious
  160. # [23:12] <Hixie> so it's just a lint, not a formal conformance checker?
  161. # [23:12] <hyatt> yes, the intent is to help people authoring to webkit to see what our parser is doing
  162. # [23:12] <hyatt> my error messages explain how safari recovers from the errors too
  163. # [23:12] <hyatt> e.g., what it's doing to fix your page
  164. # [23:13] <hyatt> so it's not an official "html5" conformance checker
  165. # [23:13] <Hixie> wait, it's just doing parser error checking?
  166. # [23:13] <Hixie> if it's just the parser, them <style> will never give you an error
  167. # [23:13] <hyatt> yeah it will be a warning.
  168. # [23:13] <hsivonen> hyatt: are the error conditions in Hixie's parsing spec not sufficient?
  169. # [23:13] <Hixie> the html5 parser defines exactly what's an error
  170. # [23:13] <hyatt> hsivonen: well, i'm also wanting to report warnings
  171. # [23:14] <hyatt> like the use of <style> on line 2700 of yahoo.com sucks for every browser
  172. # [23:14] <hyatt> since it forces a style recalc of the entire page
  173. # [23:14] <hyatt> so i should obviously report that as dumb
  174. # [23:14] * hyatt will also report that safari moved it to the <head>
  175. # [23:15] <hyatt> even though we shouldn't do that i guess
  176. # [23:15] <Hixie> it's perfectly legit to have a <style> in the middle according to HTML5
  177. # [23:15] <hyatt> :(
  178. # [23:15] <mjs> Hixie: it does "only parser error checking" in the sense of "things that happen to be handled by WebKit's HTML parser", not necessarily limited to errors that HTML5 considers parse errors
  179. # [23:15] <Hixie> and it restyles everything
  180. # [23:15] <Hixie> mjs: ah
  181. # [23:15] <hyatt> Hixie: sucks to legitimize that behavior in my opinion
  182. # [23:15] * Hixie isn't sure if this will be a good thing or a bad thing
  183. # [23:16] <mjs> although I told hyatt I don't think it should report things as errors that are not in fact conformance errors
  184. # [23:16] * hyatt thinks it should be a parse error, with the recovery being to move the <style> to the head
  185. # [23:16] <hsivonen> hyatt: is the WebKit tokenizer a conforming tokenizer as per HTML 5?
  186. # [23:16] <Hixie> hyatt: well, we need it for scoped stylesheets. i suppose we could disallow <style> elements without scoped=""
  187. # [23:16] <hyatt> mjs: every error i report as an error right now is a legitimate html5 parse error
  188. # [23:16] <hyatt> hsivonen: probably not
  189. # [23:16] <Hixie> hyatt: <style> doesn't move to head according to IE, and I'm using that to do the scoped style thing
  190. # [23:16] * hsivonen is looking for tokenizer-only test cases
  191. # [23:16] <hsivonen> hyatt: ok
  192. # [23:16] <mjs> yeah, I just mean it could report errors that HTML5 would consider conformance failures but not parse errors
  193. # [23:17] <mjs> in theory
  194. # [23:17] <hyatt> yes, it may do so
  195. # [23:17] <hyatt> nothing labels these as "parse errors" specifically
  196. # [23:17] <hyatt> they're just "errors"
  197. # [23:17] <hyatt> so if a conformance failure would be considered an "error"
  198. # [23:17] <hyatt> then i would dump it as such
  199. # [23:21] <hyatt> Hixie: i'll just do a warning
  200. # [23:22] <hyatt> unscoped <style> should (obviously) be in the <head> as a best practice.
  201. # [23:22] <hyatt> since it's best for perf
  202. # [23:22] <hyatt> so i'll emit a warning
  203. # [23:22] <Hixie> k
  204. # [23:22] <Hixie> someone send mail to the list remining me to fix that
  205. # [23:22] <Hixie> please
  206. # [23:22] <Hixie> :-)
  207. # [23:22] <hyatt> to fix what?
  208. # [23:23] <Hixie> to make <style> without scoped="" non-conforming not-in-head
  209. # [23:23] <hyatt> conformance failure = report as errors right
  210. # [23:24] <Hixie> yes
  211. # [23:24] <hyatt> if it's non-conforming then i should dump an error
  212. # [23:24] <hyatt> not a warning
  213. # [23:24] <Hixie> right now it's allowed. i'm happy with making it an error if you mail the list :-)
  214. # [23:25] <hyatt> done
  215. # [23:26] <hsivonen> is raising random spec issues still out of order on public-html? should I keep emailing the whatwg list instead?
  216. # [23:26] * hyatt raised his on public-html
  217. # [23:26] <hyatt> was that out of order?
  218. # [23:27] <hyatt> hey i'm editor, i should just reach in and fix it
  219. # [23:27] <hyatt> :)
  220. # [23:27] * hyatt hopes nobody is keeping score of hixie edits vs. hyatt edits
  221. # [23:27] <hyatt> since i think it's about 3234 - 0 right now
  222. # [23:27] <hsivonen> I guess I'll email public-html.
  223. # [23:27] <hyatt> i have a cvs account
  224. # [23:27] <hyatt> need to go read how to use w3c stuff though
  225. # [23:28] <mjs> hsivonen: DanC asked us to take a week off and otherwise hasn't really said anything about random comments being in or out of order
  226. # [23:28] <hyatt> wasn't that week off ages ago?
  227. # [23:31] <mjs> yes
  228. # [23:31] <mjs> I think the idea was to set up issue tracking software, get volunteers to manage recording issues, and then start review
  229. # [23:32] <hsivonen> mjs: ok. I'll email the HTML WG to avoid accusations of keeping stuff on the WHATWG side
  230. # [23:32] <Hixie> hyatt: thanks
  231. # [23:32] <Hixie> hsivonen: i have no idea, ask DanC
  232. # [23:33] <Hixie> as far as i go, i guarentee to read and respond to issues sent to whatwg (since i promised i would back in 2004)
  233. # [23:34] <Hixie> whereas in public-html i'm just the editor, i am not taking the responsibility of collecting and collating issues and presenting them to the editor in a neat package
  234. # [23:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: I get your point. I'll email my next issue to the whatwg then. :-)
  235. # [23:34] <Hixie> to be honest it doesn't matter where _you_ send feedback. i'll read it either way.
  236. # [23:35] <Philip`> "U+FEFF BYTE ORDER MARK (BOM)" - isn't the official name "U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE"?
  237. # [23:35] <Hixie> but it might matter for some of the people who don't necessarily have the benefit of authority from being an implementor
  238. # [23:35] <Hixie> Philip`: no
  239. # [23:35] <Hixie> Philip`: it's no longer a zwnbsp
  240. # [23:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: if the first character is a BOM in the right encoding, i see no benefit to flagging it as an error -- in fact, it should be encouraged, as it means that the author has specifically gone out of his way to do the right labelling
  241. # [23:37] <Philip`> Ah, http://unicode.org/Public/UNIDATA/UnicodeData.txt seems to give two names ("FEFF;ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE;Cf;0;BN;;;;;N;BYTE ORDER MARK;;;;")
  242. # [23:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: if the first character is a BOM in the wrong encoding, then the first character is not a BOM. so the point is moot.
  243. # [23:37] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah but the ZWNBSP name is considered deprecated
  244. # [23:37] * Joins: tH (Rob@87.102.84.23)
  245. # [23:37] <Hixie> they just can't actually deprecate the name for some reason
  246. # [23:38] <Hixie> something about name stability
  247. # [23:38] <Hixie> anyway
  248. # [23:38] <Hixie> afk
  249. # [23:38] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  250. # [23:39] * Philip` wonders what the original point of a character with no rendering, no size and no line-breaking behaviour was, or if it was just always intended to be useless
  251. # [23:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: if the BOM is the first character in UTF-16LE or UTF-16BE, it is not an encoding signature
  252. # [23:39] <anne> hyatt, I don't think we should move <style> to <head> ever
  253. # [23:39] <anne> you can add <style> to <body> using scripting already anyway
  254. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: as for the BOM not being a BOM, it would be good to elaborate on that
  255. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: basically, I think the BOM should be swallowed without an error only when Unicode says it should
  256. # [23:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: i.e. UTF-8 and UTF-16
  257. # [23:40] <hsivonen> (and UTF-32 which no one should use)
  258. # [23:41] <hyatt> anne: yeah moving to <head> is out i get it
  259. # [23:41] <hyatt> anne: should be non-conforming still though
  260. # [23:41] <hyatt> and not moving it to <head> forces engines to do a ridiculous amount of work to preserve the stylesheet order
  261. # [23:42] <anne> really?
  262. # [23:42] <anne> can't you just keep pointers to all the style sheets nodes?
  263. # [23:42] <anne> (using document.styleSheets or some such)
  264. # [23:42] <hyatt> you have to preserve document order though
  265. # [23:42] <hyatt> so if someone inserts <style> at line 3000 using the DOM
  266. # [23:42] <hyatt> tyou have to put that in the correct spot
  267. # [23:43] <mjs> hyatt: it's really not all *that* hard
  268. # [23:43] * Quits: frippz (fredrikfro@193.11.209.47) (Quit: frippz)
  269. # [23:43] <mjs> it's only insertion of style via the DOM that has to do a binary search
  270. # [23:43] <anne> I agree that anything besides <style scoped> technically doesn't make sense in <body> and should be non-conforming fwiw
  271. # [23:43] <mjs> and you can even keep a flag whether search for existing <style> / <link> elements can be scoped to <head>
  272. # [23:44] <hyatt> mjs: well you don't want to crawl the whole doc
  273. # [23:44] <hyatt> mjs: <style> in <body> is dirt-common
  274. # [23:45] <hyatt> mjs: so until we can address it in a way that doesn't regress performance
  275. # [23:45] <hyatt> mjs: moving to the <head> it is. :)
  276. # [23:45] <hyatt> mjs: occurs on > 50% of the pages in our PLT
  277. # [23:45] * anne wants the whole "moving to <head>" concept to be dropped
  278. # [23:45] <hyatt> anne: safari is the only browser that moves to head
  279. # [23:45] <mjs> hyatt: it doesn't need to regress performance during parsing
  280. # [23:45] <mjs> hyatt: if you maintain the list
  281. # [23:45] <anne> Firefox too
  282. # [23:46] <anne> also for <meta>, <base> and such
  283. # [23:46] <mjs> hyatt: the fact that we rescan the whole head even if no dynamic insertion has been done is bogus and pointless
  284. # [23:46] <hyatt> anne: you sure? i don't think firefox moves <style> to the head any more
  285. # [23:46] <anne> IE and Opera don't move stuff
  286. # [23:46] <anne> oh, might be that they fixed stuff in nightlies
  287. # [23:46] <hyatt> mjs: rescanning the head is cheap
  288. # [23:46] * anne doesn't know much about Firefox nightlies
  289. # [23:46] <mjs> hyatt: sure, but not as cheap as appending to a list while parsing, and the latter handles the <style> in <body> case fine without moving anything
  290. # [23:48] <hyatt> yeah should fix it at some point
  291. # [23:48] <hyatt> we don't apply <style> inserted via the dom outside the head
  292. # [23:48] <hyatt> at all
  293. # [23:48] <hyatt> thats the major bug we have right now basically
  294. # [23:49] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2007/05/25-hcg-minutes.html#item01
  295. # [23:52] <hsivonen> what the backplane incubator do?
  296. # [23:52] <hsivonen> what does*
  297. # [23:52] <anne> HTML5 2.0
  298. # [23:53] <mjs> what would it even mean for the forms task force to be in the hypertext coordination group?
  299. # [23:53] <anne> dunno, hypertext cg is member only
  300. # [23:53] <anne> seems kind of weird to me
  301. # [23:53] <mjs> hsivonen: to answer that question would require what the backplane is, and I have yet to see a straight answer
  302. # [23:54] <anne> wtf is a "forms processor"?
  303. # [23:54] <anne> does it do DOM?
  304. # [23:54] <mjs> the most honest answer I have gotten is that it is xforms, but then people use it in airy abstract ways that seem unconnected to xforms
  305. # [23:54] <anne> I think backplane is the XForms idea of doing web applications
  306. # [23:55] <anne> So XForms, XML Events 2, XHTML2, and some additional stuff
  307. # [23:55] <mjs> so they call this collection of client-side technologies "the backplane"?
  308. # [23:56] <hsivonen> I had thought the backplane was the server side of an XForms app
  309. # [23:56] <mjs> the W3C Note about it is this: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2006/backplane/
  310. # [23:56] <mjs> and it only confuses me more
  311. # [23:56] <anne> got to go
  312. # [23:57] <mjs> hsivonen: try reading that Note and see if your understanding is clarified or confused
  313. # [23:59] * Quits: anne (annevk@213.236.208.22) (Ping timeout)
  314. # [23:59] <Philip`> "... there are a number of such common building blocks underlying web application design that cut across boundaries of working groups, boundaries of namespaces (XHTML, XForms, SVG, VoiceXML, etc), and that cut across boundaries of procedural (e.g. scripting) vs. declarative programming styles. By working toward a common definition of those building blocks, which we call a "rich web application backplane" ..." seems to make sense, like it's just a collection
  315. # Session Close: Sat May 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)