/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun May 27 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  45. # [10:17] <hyatt> hsivonen: ping
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  48. # [10:45] <anne> hyatt, I think what HTML5 does is more intiutive
  49. # [10:45] <anne> hyatt, note also that you could have multiple <style> elements each with their own media= and title= attributes (for media specific and alternate style sheets)
  50. # [10:45] <hyatt> what html5 does doesn't really help with the stitching together problem
  51. # [10:46] <hyatt> all the places where i see <style> abused today it's a child of the <body>
  52. # [10:46] <hyatt> so scoped is useless
  53. # [10:46] <hyatt> as defined right now in html5
  54. # [10:46] <anne> scoped is a new feature and only works when a scoped= attribute is specified...
  55. # [10:47] <hyatt> yes, but you're basically forced to introduce a containing element
  56. # [10:47] <hyatt> in order to get any actual scoping
  57. # [10:47] <hyatt> doesn't seem very intuitive to me
  58. # [10:47] <hyatt> this is kind of like counters vs. lists
  59. # [10:47] <hyatt> in css
  60. # [10:48] <hyatt> a counter-reset in css applies to following siblings
  61. # [10:48] <hyatt> lists reset using containment though
  62. # [10:48] <hyatt> i find the former more intuitive
  63. # [10:48] <hyatt> i am amused that i brought this up with the list precisely because i knew it would be controversial
  64. # [10:48] <hyatt> and then danc complains at me to jsut go make the change
  65. # [10:49] <hyatt> which made no sense
  66. # [10:49] <hyatt> "you're editor, just go change it"
  67. # [10:49] <hyatt> lol
  68. # [10:50] <hyatt> anne: i think i'm just going to give up and forget about this
  69. # [10:50] <hyatt> anne: as a browser vendor i have to support <style> anywhere anyway
  70. # [10:50] <hyatt> anne: the definition of what's conforming is pretty irrelevant to a browser vendor :)
  71. # [10:50] <anne> I know
  72. # [10:51] <anne> What I was wondering about is why you want to change <style scoped>
  73. # [10:51] <hyatt> i hate anything that forces me to rewind while parsing
  74. # [10:51] <hyatt> to reapply styles
  75. # [10:51] <anne> because one of the use cases is that you can multiple following each other like <style scoped></style><style scoped media=print></style> ...
  76. # [10:51] <anne> I guess that's fair enough but you have that problem already... :(
  77. # [10:52] <hyatt> yes
  78. # [10:52] <hyatt> i think people who use <style> in the body rarely understand they're even dealing with a ree
  79. # [10:52] <hyatt> with a tree
  80. # [10:52] <hyatt> the document in their minds is just a stream of tags
  81. # [10:53] <hyatt> viewed from that perspective having <style> apply to "what follows" makes sense
  82. # [10:53] <hyatt> but as i said, i don't really care that much
  83. # [10:54] <hyatt> but i don't find it very intuitive that i could say:
  84. # [10:54] <hyatt> <div><style scoped>...</style> and have that style apply to the div itself
  85. # [10:54] <hyatt> i'd have preferred something more like:
  86. # [10:55] <hyatt> <div stylesheet="#style">
  87. # [10:55] <hyatt> or something like that
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  91. # [11:43] <hsivonen> hyatt: pong
  92. # [11:44] <hyatt> hsivonen: was curious what you thought of <style scoped> applying to following siblings and their descendants
  93. # [11:44] <hyatt> (but not to the parent or to the previous siblings/descendants)
  94. # [11:46] * zcorpan_ thinks it's ok, as an author
  95. # [11:46] <hsivonen> hyatt: makes perfect sense to me considering impl and perf
  96. # [11:46] <hyatt> anne didn't like it
  97. # [11:46] <hyatt> i'll find out what hixie thinks when he's next on
  98. # [11:47] <hsivonen> hyatt: dunno if authors want to style the parent , though
  99. # [11:47] <hyatt> hard to say
  100. # [11:50] <anne> it seems illogical that if you have <style id=a scoped></style><style id=b scoped></style> #a can style #b but #b can't style #a
  101. # [11:50] <anne> I don't particularly care much about styling the parent element
  102. # [11:51] <hsivonen> anne: I don't care about styling <style>
  103. # [11:51] <hyatt> yeah <style> has display:none anyway
  104. # [11:51] <hyatt> but if that bothers you we could say it skips <style> elements :)
  105. # [11:51] <anne> hmm, maybe it's too theoretical
  106. # [11:51] <anne> heh
  107. # [11:52] <hyatt> i am just convinced that one of the #1 uses cases of scoped will be lazy stitching of a bunch of documents
  108. # [11:52] <hyatt> and if all the <style scoped>s are in the <body>
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  110. # [11:52] <hyatt> you've gained nothing
  111. # [11:52] <hyatt> it's just as bad as unscoped with the current spec
  112. # [11:54] <hsivonen> hyatt: yeah, the way Hixie specced it assumes document conformance, which is not a safe assumption
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  114. # [11:59] <hyatt> wow daniel glazman really thinks <style> sprinkled around unscoped is legit
  115. # [12:00] <hyatt> does mozilla's editor actually do that?
  116. # [12:00] <hyatt> it's so unnecessary
  117. # [12:00] <hyatt> can just put the styles in the head
  118. # [12:01] <anne> Firefox 2 puts them in the head I think
  119. # [12:01] <anne> but IE and Opera don't
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  121. # [12:02] <anne> I don't think glazou thinks they are legit, just that people use them
  122. # [12:03] <anne> hyatt, yeah, hopefully people would use them within another container than <body>
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  182. # [22:36] <niColasSs> Email is : username@hostname or username@domain name ?
  183. # [22:38] <niColasSs> ?
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The end :)