/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-05-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  10. # [01:22] <gsnedders> we're getting ever closer to the devil!
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  36. # [03:27] <Hixie> olivier: wow, the xhtml wg never cease to amuse
  37. # [03:27] <Hixie> olivier: anyway, the html5 spec makes the xhtml vs html text/html thing much clearer.
  38. # [03:28] <Hixie> olivier: and requires anything sent as text/html to be treated as HTML
  39. # [03:29] <olivier> hixie: good
  40. # [03:30] <olivier> since it also defines "treat as HTML" that's fine with me
  41. # [03:31] <nickshanks> err, when would text/html documents not get treated as HTML ?
  42. # [03:31] <olivier> does that mean that HTML5 in its XML serialization MUST be served with an XML mime type?
  43. # [03:31] <Hixie> olivier: the spec says: "XHTML documents (XML documents using elements from the HTML namespace) that use the new features described in this specification and that are served over the wire (e.g. by HTTP) must be sent using an XML MIME type such as application/xml or application/xhtml+xml and must not be served as text/html."
  44. # [03:31] <olivier> nickshanks -define "treat as html"?
  45. # [03:32] <olivier> hixie: that's good
  46. # [03:32] <olivier> much cleaner that way, IMHO
  47. # [03:32] <Hixie> agreed
  48. # [03:33] <nickshanks> oliver: well ian said "requires anything sent as text/html to be treated as HTML" - does this mean that sometimes it wasn't ?
  49. # [03:33] <Hixie> nickshanks: see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2007Apr/0175.html
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  51. # [03:36] <nickshanks> one HTTP header to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them.
  52. # [03:37] <nickshanks> i assume that XHTML sent with a text/html media type would be treated as HTML
  53. # [03:38] <nickshanks> regardless of DTD
  54. # [03:41] <Hixie> that's what the html5 spec says
  55. # [03:41] <Hixie> it's what the xhtml wg said back in the day
  56. # [03:41] <Hixie> it's not what shane says in that e-mail though
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  61. # [04:10] <mjs> well, Shane only said it about the validator
  62. # [04:11] <mjs> so it's at least a limited scope of delusion
  63. # [04:18] <mjs> Hixie: the HTML WG (perhpas one of the Editors) could certainly advise the W3C validator team on this point as well, since we are in charge of the text/html media type
  64. # [04:18] <mjs> (though I suppose that kind of begs the question of whether the content type or doctype takes precedence)
  65. # [04:18] <mjs> (in the original sense of "beg the question")
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  68. # [04:42] <Hixie> mjs: that's what i was doing above (talking to olivier) -- however until the validator team start looking at making an html5 conformance checker, our spec is somewhat moot
  69. # [04:51] <mjs> Hixie: true, and I guess trying to interpret the tea leaves of the HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 specs is a waste of time compared to writing a spec that is actually clear on this point
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  71. # [04:58] <Hixie> yeah
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  74. # [05:27] <karl> "And they did a helluva job, so good it has been said that it was written by geniuses so it could be run by idiots." -- Bill Maher, Newsweek - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18882855/site/newsweek/
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  83. # [06:52] <MikeSmith> hyatt - wish you all would blog more at the Surfin Safari blog
  84. # [06:53] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.245.248.74)
  85. # [06:55] <MikeSmith> mjs - wasy just saying to hyatt that would be great to see developers blogging more at Surfin Safari blog
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  87. # [07:37] <hyatt> MikeSmith: we're busy with wwdc atm :)
  88. # [07:37] <hyatt> MikeSmith: not much time for blogging these days
  89. # [07:38] <hyatt> having a nine-month-old also severely cuts into blogging time :)
  90. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> hyatt - I hear that ... but maybe could recruit some other developers to write for it -- one person a week or whatever
  91. # [07:43] <hyatt> we're all very busy right now unfortunately
  92. # [07:43] <karl> MikeSmith: everyone decided to have babies. New rule for the future of html - No babies authorized! (kidding)
  93. # [07:44] <MikeSmith> hyatt - I know, I see the checkins on the webkit-changes list :)
  94. # [07:44] <karl> In fact, honestly, I would almost wish the opposite ;)
  95. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> hyatt - anyway, I mention it because I still meet many people who nothing little or nothing about Webkit, despite knowing about Mozilla/Firefox
  96. # [07:47] <hyatt> that is our lot in life
  97. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> well, some more blogging on Surfin Safari (when people have time) wouldn't hurt things
  98. # [07:49] <MikeSmith> but yeah, I can understand that fixing bugs and implementing features and standards support sorta needs to take priority
  99. # [07:51] <hyatt> we have WWDC coming up
  100. # [07:51] <hyatt> june 11-15
  101. # [07:51] <hyatt> people have talks and we have to get bugs fixed for it etc.
  102. # [07:51] <hyatt> so people are just super-busy right now
  103. # [07:52] <hyatt> will ease up after wwdc
  104. # [07:52] <MikeSmith> ok
  105. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> hyatt - is there a program online for WWDC?
  106. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> your or mjs speaking?
  107. # [07:53] <hyatt> http://developer.apple.com/wwdc/
  108. # [07:53] <hyatt> i'm not speaking this year
  109. # [07:53] <hyatt> mjs isn't either i don't think
  110. # [08:01] * MikeSmith looks at the Presentations Sessions list
  111. # [08:03] <MikeSmith> I see there's a few WebKit-related sessions/labs, but doesn't list the presenter names ...
  112. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> Safari and WebKit Lab - "Receive one-on-one technical assistance and troubleshooting advice from the Safari and WebKit engineering team"
  113. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> sounds great, anyway
  114. # [08:04] <MikeSmith> wish I could be there
  115. # [08:04] * karl wishes that people would stop to make HTML specification bigger than the Mahabharata.
  116. # [08:06] * MikeSmith wishes people would realize the spec isn't that big, compared to other real-world functional specs
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  118. # [08:06] <karl> SQL API... "A sequel is a work of fiction in literature, film, and other creative works that is produced after a completed work, and is set in the same "universe", but at a later time." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequel
  119. # [08:08] <MikeSmith> when you set out to write a spec that precisely describes application behavior for implementors, it takes a lot of words to do it right
  120. # [08:08] <hyatt> yup
  121. # [08:08] <hyatt> html4 was more of a sketch or guideline than a spec
  122. # [08:08] <hyatt> it didn't say much of anything about implementation details
  123. # [08:08] <karl> Mike: well, yes it is what I call an implementation guide or a functional specs indeed.
  124. # [08:09] <karl> hyatt: rewriting of history ;) It is not exactly that.
  125. # [08:09] <hyatt> it is very poorly specified
  126. # [08:09] <karl> yes
  127. # [08:09] <hyatt> it does not provide enough information for interoperable implementations
  128. # [08:09] <karl> indeed
  129. # [08:09] <hyatt> and is one reason we're in such a mess now
  130. # [08:09] <karl> this is true
  131. # [08:10] <hyatt> so it's worth adding the extra page weight to html5 to really get this stuff right
  132. # [08:10] <karl> but I would argue, that html5, for now, is really specified for browsers, and very poorly specified for other class of products
  133. # [08:10] <karl> it's just because there is a strong point of view on one side for now
  134. # [08:11] <hyatt> implementation instructions cna consume a lot of space
  135. # [08:11] <hyatt> it might be interesting to have ways of hiding those details for a "lighter" version that different audiences could read
  136. # [08:11] <karl> no arguments about that :)
  137. # [08:11] <hyatt> but then again, there will be lots of html5 books etc.
  138. # [08:12] <karl> the problem is that difference audiences don't grok the same language and formulation.
  139. # [08:12] <MikeSmith> would be nice to have an authoring spec if possible but I think the priority for now needs to be on making sure we have a spec that precisely describes UA behavior
  140. # [08:13] <karl> we could talk about Paris as a traffic guide, a poem, a novel, a statistic report with the same exact topic but for complete different audiences
  141. # [08:14] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/MeaningVsBehavior
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  143. # [08:14] <karl> MikeSmith: it is a lot narrower than UA behavior for now. it is mostly browser behavior :)
  144. # [08:16] <mjs> MikeSmith: ok, I'll see if I can whip up a blog post
  145. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> mjs - KTHX
  146. # [08:19] <MikeSmith> you rock
  147. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> karl - I guess browser behavior is what matters most at this point
  148. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> maybe the time to deal with other UAs more precisely is after the WG can declare victory on getting browser behavior spec'ed
  149. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> that is, to make sure that spec has UA behavior described well enough for browser vendors to work with
  150. # [08:23] <karl> maybe :)
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  156. # [08:44] <hsivonen> anne: do you have any ideas on what would be the best way to annotate the http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/ tests for machine-checkable conformance status?
  157. # [08:45] <anne> make a file conforming.txt for each dir with a list of conforming files?
  158. # [08:45] <hsivonen> anne: sounds good
  159. # [08:45] <anne> k
  160. # [08:46] <hsivonen> I learned that the SVG 1.2 Tiny schema is unstable
  161. # [08:47] <heycam> "unstable" in what sense?
  162. # [08:47] <mjs> with what half-life?
  163. # [08:47] <hsivonen> heycam: the files change on the server
  164. # [08:48] <heycam> the ones in CVS?
  165. # [08:48] <hsivonen> heycam: the ones under w3.org/Graphics/...
  166. # [08:49] <heycam> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/schema.html says there are dated and undates versions (to get the latest)
  167. # [08:49] <heycam> presumably they would update only with republication of the draft
  168. # [08:49] <heycam> s/undates/undated/
  169. # [08:50] <anne> you could still have a streaming API with events that notify tree updates I think...
  170. # [08:51] <anne> in response to some e-mail I just read
  171. # [08:51] <anne> anyway, I should probably go to reboot now...
  172. # [08:51] <hsivonen> anne: that would not be pure SAX, though
  173. # [08:51] <anne> sure
  174. # [08:52] <anne> can't have both
  175. # [08:52] <anne> (well, only if you accept some error event to be emitted...)
  176. # [08:52] <anne> bbl
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  180. # [09:01] * hsivonen notes that w3.org requires me to violate the TAG MIME Respect finding for DTDs and RELAX NG schemata
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  182. # [09:02] <hsivonen> text/plain all the way
  183. # [09:02] <hyatt> all i saw was a lot of acronyms
  184. # [09:02] <mjs> hsivonen: that finding is only for *specs*
  185. # [09:02] <mjs> no one is expected to follow it when making a web site or consuming web content
  186. # [09:03] <hyatt> so should my first edit to the html spec be to add my name to the set of editors?
  187. # [09:03] <hyatt> or should my first edit be to change style to be non-conforming
  188. # [09:03] <hyatt> :)
  189. # [09:03] <karl> hsivonen: which ones?
  190. # [09:03] <hsivonen> mjs: that's why I have a "haha only kidding" checkbox in my validator
  191. # [09:03] <hsivonen> karl: every URI ending with .dtd, .ent or .rng
  192. # [09:04] <karl> all of thoses are sent with text/plain?
  193. # [09:04] <hsivonen> karl: yes
  194. # [09:04] * karl wonders if there is a specific mime type for DTD and ent
  195. # [09:04] <karl> not sure about that
  196. # [09:04] <karl> rng would be xml I guess
  197. # [09:04] <mjs> is .ent an XML external parsed entity?
  198. # [09:05] <hsivonen> application/xml-dtd, application/xml-external-parsed-entity and application/xml
  199. # [09:05] <olivier> hsivonen: "hey, guys, I think your server is misconfigured"
  200. # [09:06] <hsivonen> those would be the right types for .dtd, .ent and .rng (except for the SGML .dtd and .ent hosted at w3.org)
  201. # [09:06] <olivier> versus "w3.org requires me to violate ..."
  202. # [09:06] <karl> for me it seems not right to send dtd, as xml.
  203. # [09:06] <hsivonen> karl: application/xml-dtd
  204. # [09:07] <karl> checking
  205. # [09:07] <karl> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/
  206. # [09:07] <hsivonen> olivier: whether it is misconfigured depends on whether the intent was to make them readable as text when you load the URIs in browsers
  207. # [09:07] <karl> http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3023.txt
  208. # [09:07] * mjs is surprised Relax NG does not define a proper media type
  209. # [09:08] <karl> hsivonen: hmmm two tongues
  210. # [09:08] <hsivonen> mjs: it is XML with a known root element namespace. degenerates to the XBL media type discussion
  211. # [09:08] <karl> once you said misconfigured, and once you seem to say it is ok to read it as text
  212. # [09:09] * olivier -> out
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  214. # [09:09] <hsivonen> karl: well it *is* misconfigured if you consider what those files *are*
  215. # [09:09] <mjs> hsivonen: content types are often useful for application dispatch even if there is a well-known root, consider how much trouble has been caused by sending RSS as just text/xml
  216. # [09:09] <mjs> (the horrific feed: URI scheme and such)
  217. # [09:10] * karl is sending an email to systeam
  218. # [09:10] <mjs> karl: I think hsivonen meant to make a point about the impracticality of the TAG finding more so than about the competence of the W3C web team
  219. # [09:10] <hsivonen> karl: thanks. (I expect all the people who like to read those files as plain text in browsers to complain, though.)
  220. # [09:11] <karl> hsivonen: usually, it is more useful to send an email to the appropriate person with a polite message more than doing the peacock at the love season. ;) It will be more effective.
  221. # [09:12] <mjs> karl: but the TAG would probably ignore a message that says "not even the W3C has servers configured to always send the right MIME type, so how can we expect more casual authors to get it right?"
  222. # [09:12] <hsivonen> karl: my comment wasn't a jibe at the server team. it was a jibe at the TAG finding for which email has been sent by e.g. Hixie
  223. # [09:12] <karl> It is the sam, IMHO.
  224. # [09:12] <karl> same
  225. # [09:14] <hsivonen> ok. I don't think an off-the-cuff remark on IRC constitutes peacock at the love season, though
  226. # [09:16] <hsivonen> karl: anyway, servers hosting schemata send text/plain all the time. for the validator to be useful, there has to be a way do disrespect MIME
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  229. # [09:33] * MikeSmith copies down the phrase "doing the peacock at the love season" for later use
  230. # [09:33] <MikeSmith> hyatt - your first edit to the spec should be to squeeze the phrase "doing the peacock at the love season" in there somewhere
  231. # [09:34] <hyatt> uuuuh
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  247. # [11:21] * anne thought he mentioned that <base> wasn't dynamic at all...
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  252. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> I'm at the Apple Store in Ginza for monthly "CSSNite" event
  253. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> one of the speakers is scheduled to speak about HTML5
  254. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> http://www.cybergarden.net/revolution/2007/04/xhtmlcss_revolution_3rd.html
  255. # [12:03] <MikeSmith> 益子 貴寛 (the presenter, I think)
  256. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> http://www.cybergarden.net/revolution/20070531.pdf
  257. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> (not online yet)
  258. # [12:05] <MikeSmith> Mashiko-san
  259. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> he's showing a photo of TimBL right now
  260. # [12:07] <MikeSmith> ... mentioning Tim's "Reinventing HTML" posting from last October
  261. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> ... mentioning that the WG was formed in March
  262. # [12:08] <MikeSmith> ... mentions DanC but not Chris Wilson
  263. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> ... talking about goal being "revise" instead of "reconstruct" (or other way around?)
  264. # [12:09] <MikeSmith> ... talking about publishing roadmap for the HTML5 spec
  265. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> ... on to goal of the WG ...
  266. # [12:10] <MikeSmith> ... "a language that will be a complete specification not a delta"
  267. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> ... both HTML and XML serializations ...
  268. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> ... DOM APIs ...
  269. # [12:11] <MikeSmith> ... mentioning that HTML5 came WHATWG ...
  270. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ... (screenshot of 25 May draft of HTML) ...
  271. # [12:12] <MikeSmith> ... zooming in on copyright statement ...
  272. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> ... to emphasize that it's supported by browser vendors ...
  273. # [12:13] <MikeSmith> ... mentions Ian Hickson ...
  274. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> ... talking about scope of the spec ...
  275. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> ... supplanting HTML4, XHTML1, DOM2, WF2 ...
  276. # [12:15] <MikeSmith> ... quoting what spec says about XHTML2 lacking support for web apps ...
  277. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> ... independence from XUL, Silverlight, etc. ...
  278. # [12:16] <MikeSmith> ... on to list of new elements ...
  279. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> ... section, nav, article, aside, header, footer, dialog, m ...
  280. # [12:17] <MikeSmith> ... figure, tim, meter, progress, video (supported in Opera 9), audio, source, canvas (FF and Safari support) ...
  281. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> ... slide about canvas ...
  282. # [12:18] <MikeSmith> ... (showing demo in Safari) ...
  283. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> ... slide about video support in Opera 9 ...
  284. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> ... haakon's opacity example ...
  285. # [12:20] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> ... quoting Hixie's statement that it's not realistic to expect to get to Rec by 2010 ...
  287. # [12:21] <MikeSmith> ... now giving his own thoughts on things ...
  288. # [12:22] <MikeSmith> ... mentioning conversation he had with Ishikawa-san (former W3C team) ...
  289. # [12:23] <MikeSmith> ... slide on "important points" ...
  290. # [12:24] <MikeSmith> ... discussion of whether HTML should be based on XML ...
  291. # [12:25] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  292. # [12:25] <krijnh> We have a tim element?
  293. # [12:25] <krijnh> Cool!
  294. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> ... mention of how compound documents XHTML + SVG + MathML can be created with XML base ...
  295. # [12:26] <MikeSmith> ... now slide on microformats ...
  296. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> ... relationshiop between microformats and HTML5 ...
  297. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> ... now on to discussion ...
  298. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> [presentation ends]
  299. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> he says he will post the slides tomorrow
  300. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> at URL above
  301. # [12:28] <MikeSmith> (but note they are mostly in Japanese)
  302. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> s/tim, meter/time, meter/
  303. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> krijnh - smartass
  304. # [12:39] <krijnh> :)
  305. # [12:39] <krijnh> Just kidding
  306. # [12:40] <krijnh> <tim>Reinventing HTML</tim>
  307. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> krijnh - yeah, I know :)
  308. # [12:41] * Quits: mw22 (chatzilla@84.41.169.151) (Quit: Chatzilla 0.9.75-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060814])
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  310. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> [two other panelists here with Mashiko-san and having dicussion of HTML(5) ...
  311. # [12:51] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.91.218)
  312. # [12:51] * tH_ is now known as tH
  313. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> ... asking Hirakawa-san whether W3C staff has "motivation" to create a new version of HTML ...
  314. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> ... karl takes the question ...
  315. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> ... says that we at W3C need to meet the needs of the market ...
  316. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> ... so that yeah, we are motivation ...
  317. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> ... karl talks about fact that there is a need for a spec that covers how browser really parse/handle HTML ...
  318. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> ... hirakawa talking about the fact that anybody can join the HTML WG ...
  319. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> ... so we could like more people from Japan to join ...
  320. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> (there are roughly 150 - 200 people in this room now) ...
  321. # [12:59] <MikeSmith> ... mostly professional Web designers ...
  322. # [13:00] <MikeSmith> ... Mashiko-san talking again ... mentioning that any HTML spec needs browser support ...
  323. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> [panel discussion ends]
  324. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> W3C Hirakawa-san talking now
  325. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> ... interesting Olivier now ... talking about the fact that he is responsible for the validator ...
  326. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> ... introducing karl, mentioning his QA work and fact that he is HTML WG team ...
  327. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> ... and then introduces me (karl grabs my laptop ...
  328. # [13:04] <MikeSmith> [that ends the HTML5 part of the evening]
  329. # [13:05] <MikeSmith> now back to our regularly scheduled programming ...
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  337. # [14:20] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/apis/gears/samples/hello_world_database.html - SQLite in a web browser? Sounds like a familiar idea...
  338. # [14:20] * Joins: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  339. # [14:21] <Philip`> Not quite compatible with the HTML5 API, though :-(
  340. # [14:21] <anne> It needs some syncing
  341. # [14:22] <anne> But I think the idea is that they are slightly different
  342. # [14:22] <anne> and that the standardized solutions will at one point be universally supported and you no longer need the plugins
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The end :)