/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  21. # [03:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - you still awake?
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  24. # [03:19] <karl> http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/06/07/thoughts-on-html-5/
  25. # [03:19] * karl really thinks we have to explain the authoring part a bit more.
  26. # [03:19] <karl> What is a conforming HTML 5 document
  27. # [03:20] <karl> I would also makes it stricter than what the spec is saying now.
  28. # [03:20] <karl> parsing flexible cool.
  29. # [03:20] <karl> authoring strict.
  30. # [03:21] <karl> "Attitude
  31. # [03:21] <karl> I completely agree with what Roger writes that there definitely seems to be an attitude problem. Some people are, to a certain degree, condescending towards others and seem to think that they know it all. Please, let me inform you that no one knows it all."
  32. # [03:22] <karl> this too. I have said it a few times to some members of HTML 5 WG
  33. # [03:23] <karl> When I was younger, I thought I could do everything better than older people who hadn’t delivered a perfect solution. Naturally, in certain areas, I was wrong. Hell, everyone in the world can step in and think they can do something better than anyone else previous to them, but the vital mistake in that approach is that you never have all the facts, you don’t know what problems and obstacles the person before you ran into, and during what circumstances it
  34. # [03:23] <karl> was developed.
  35. # [03:23] <karl> "So, unless you can’t be humble, open for other people’s opinions, and most importantly, respectful, don’t waste your time trying to tell others how to do their job, because they sure as hell won’t listen to you. Please don’t bother, if you’re more interested in becoming a dictator than a democrat."
  36. # [03:24] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.242) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  37. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> karl - what dude calls "sloppy coding" is his blog posting is completely subjective ...
  38. # [03:28] <MikeSmith> ... it's not absolutely sloppy
  39. # [03:29] <zcorpan> <input disabled> has always been valid html
  40. # [03:29] <MikeSmith> some progamming languages (perl, for example) also permit omission of certain tokens
  41. # [03:30] <MikeSmith> "My take is that the HTML Working Group assumes that one single web developer will choose or the other and then consistently go with it. To me, that’s just naive."
  42. # [03:31] <MikeSmith> the WG doesn't assume that at all of course
  43. # [03:32] <karl> MikeSmith: the WG doesn't assume, because only a person can assume ;) not really a group.
  44. # [03:32] <karl> what he wants to express by sloppy coding
  45. # [03:33] <karl> I understand it
  46. # [03:33] <karl> In the community, many web developers and designers have taken the lead to evangelize for better practices at writing HTML+CSS
  47. # [03:33] <karl> * they pushed the CSS layout
  48. # [03:33] <MikeSmith> karl, true ... I guess the point is that the spec doesn't mandate consistency in use of quotes around attribute values or closing slash in empty elements
  49. # [03:33] <karl> * they fought against presentation, etc.
  50. # [03:34] <karl> they did a lot of *good* work in the community AND in the business
  51. # [03:34] <karl> They even have developed a business around following Web standards.
  52. # [03:34] <karl> It doesn't mean that they solved all issues
  53. # [03:35] <karl> but yes seeing the rules in HTML 5 spec is a bit shocking.
  54. # [03:35] <karl> A bit like if you take a professional driver and an amateur driver.
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  57. # [03:36] <karl> So I perfectly understand the need for being able to parse correctly bogus pages
  58. # [03:36] <karl> and to create a common dom
  59. # [03:36] <karl> error recovery, clear parsing, etc. They are gems for HTML 5
  60. # [03:37] <karl> at the same time, I understand the need for a very strict output for Web pros.
  61. # [03:37] <MikeSmith> I think what that that blog author is really advocating (and what others are advocating as best practices for authoring) just comes down to a general statement of "Author such that your HTML source is well-formed XML" ...
  62. # [03:38] <karl> :) yep
  63. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> which is fine ...
  64. # [03:38] <karl> it's why I think we should write the specification in this sense for the authoring part
  65. # [03:38] <karl> maybe there is a way to accomodate everyone.
  66. # [03:38] <MikeSmith> but they need to also understand that the browsers (and to other UAs the are conformant with the HTML5 spec), it really makes no difference
  67. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> for browsers
  68. # [03:39] <karl> MikeSmith: there is not only one class of products for conformance
  69. # [03:39] <karl> :) nobody disagrees with browsers
  70. # [03:39] <karl> or almost
  71. # [03:39] <karl> PARSING is good
  72. # [03:39] <karl> all people who complain
  73. # [03:40] <karl> sees the spec which is written mainly for browser and interpret it for authors.
  74. # [03:40] <karl> then there is a culture shock
  75. # [03:40] <MikeSmith> I understand that, but unless people are actually using a toolchain with other tools (other than browsers) that expect well-formed XML as input, they really don't gain anything from authoring in WF XML
  76. # [03:40] <karl> We would have less problem if the semantics was in a separate document
  77. # [03:40] <karl> from the parsing
  78. # [03:40] <karl> MikeSmith: wrong.
  79. # [03:40] <karl> They gain
  80. # [03:41] <karl> they are writing
  81. # [03:41] <karl> it
  82. # [03:41] <karl> not on the functional level
  83. # [03:41] <karl> but on the business, understanding, etc level
  84. # [03:42] <karl> Yes you can grow vegetables by just throwing seeds and there. But it is a lot more practical for the farmer to put them into lines.
  85. # [03:42] <karl> It doesn't change anything for the consumers in the market
  86. # [03:43] <karl> and it doesn't change the quality of the product
  87. # [03:43] <karl> but the farmer has satisfaction from it, and he's more effective
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  89. # [03:47] <zcorpan> and he can do so, but he is not forced to do so
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  94. # [04:06] <MikeSmith> karl - I was going to say, I grow my stuff with hydroponics and grow lights in a secret closet in my house...
  95. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> so, I see a couple of exchanges between anne and DanC from yesterday's IRC log that point to likelihood of the WG publishing in TR space a document (a W3C Note, I guess) on Design Principles and/or Differences from HTML4
  96. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-414
  97. # [04:13] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-776
  98. # [04:14] <MikeSmith> ... and anne possibly being willing to work on putting a W3C pubrules-compliant doc together for publication in TR space
  99. # [04:21] * karl is reading the spec
  100. # [04:21] <karl> the irc log
  101. # [04:21] <karl> I meant
  102. # [04:26] * Joins: Hixie (ianh@129.241.93.37)
  103. # [04:32] <karl> it is christmas day! I agree with hixie on http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-613
  104. # [04:34] <karl> MikeSmith: this is our discussion in the office this morning
  105. # [04:34] <karl> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-654
  106. # [04:38] <karl> agreed again on - http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-724
  107. # [04:39] <karl> IT's what Web designers/developers are saying in their weblog posts
  108. # [04:39] <karl> the fact to define better rules for the future, doesn't mean that you will break the old content, which is handled by the parsing
  109. # [04:40] <karl> We just improve the food chain
  110. # [04:40] <karl> and that's a benefit
  111. # [04:40] <karl> and in business context, like Web agencies, it makes the real work of people easier. By having one set of precise rules.
  112. # [04:40] <karl> It makes business sense.
  113. # [04:41] <MikeSmith> karl - I don't know what any of that has to do with our discussion in the office this morning about the best ways to grow weed without getting caught by the police.
  114. # [04:42] * karl wonders what kind of weeds was in your tea this morning? :p
  115. # [04:42] * karl will go check on your table
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  117. # [04:50] <karl> the tea seems to be fine after checking. Just for the record
  118. # [04:51] <karl> ;)
  119. # [04:51] * karl just showed to MikeSmith http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.w3.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Ftidy-if%3FdocAddr%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.la-grange.net%252F2006%252F05%252F05.html&xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F08%2Fextract-semantic.xsl
  120. # [04:51] <karl> the Semantics Extractor
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  122. # [05:07] * karl wonders if someone has tested the HTML ouput of OpenOffice for Mac OS X Aqua - http://trinity.neooffice.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=122&mode=thread&order=1&thold=0
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  133. # [07:50] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I'm awake now
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  138. # [08:27] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - wanted to ask which tools you know of that currently support validation of RelaxNG with embedded Schematron assertions
  139. # [08:29] <MikeSmith> only Kohsuke's MSV?
  140. # [08:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that's the only one that I'm aware of that doesn't require the XSLT preprocessor to be run by the user. however, JNVDL may do something new in this area
  141. # [08:34] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK, I'll contact Jirka to ask about that. ... btw, did you ever hear anything more from Rick Jelliffe after his posting where he mentioned he thought more HTML5 conformance checking could probably be done using Schematron (without relying on non-schema checkers)?
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  145. # [08:55] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I didn't
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  148. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so for HTML5, as far as schema validation, your conformance checker is currently doing two-pass checking against the HTML RNC grammar, then against the Schematron assertions, right? (before doing the non-schema checking)
  149. # [09:12] * anne wonders why karl wants to force him to use optional tags :(
  150. # [09:14] <karl> :) anne I don't want to force anyone, but when we are playing in a Team, I comply to rules for the benefits of the Team :)
  151. # [09:14] <karl> it's all about if you are a Team player or not
  152. # [09:17] <anne> you can define a subset of my syntax and be happy
  153. # [09:17] <anne> I can't
  154. # [09:17] <sbuluf> since you are talking schema languages, you might (or might ot) be interested to know that basically the whole of microsoft does not use, or like XSD
  155. # [09:18] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no, there's a single pass and RNC, Schematron and non-schema checkers are fed in parallel. But due to the nature of Schematron, the Schematron assertions fire at the end
  156. # [09:18] <karl> anne: subset, it is exactly what I'm calling for.
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  158. # [09:18] <sbuluf> more particularly, they seem to complain about impedance mismatch between XSD and OO programming languages
  159. # [09:18] <karl> or at least I voice what Web pros are asking for.
  160. # [09:19] <karl> and it could be a level of conformance btw
  161. # [09:19] * zcorpan points at innerHTML
  162. # [09:19] <karl> one for amateurs and one for pro ;)
  163. # [09:19] <anne> pro-wannabees, sure
  164. # [09:19] <sbuluf> (what i can not quite fathom is if they claim that considering OO languages in general, or just their own implementations of them (CLR)
  165. # [09:19] <zcorpan> pro being where you can omit tags? :)
  166. # [09:19] <anne> I'd think so
  167. # [09:19] <anne> you can only do that if you know what you're doing :)
  168. # [09:19] <karl> anne: out-of-topic and read again the part about attitude
  169. # [09:20] <hsivonen> fwiw, I think Robert Nyman's notion of sloppy coding would only serve to make people think conformance checking is arbitrary
  170. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> sbuluf - heh - sweet ... Ringing endorsement there for XSD. What do they use instead? For aligning closer with OO languages?
  171. # [09:20] <hsivonen> sbuluf: that's assuming databinding, right?
  172. # [09:20] <sbuluf> mikesmith, i'm no expert, but i can provide links, if you wish
  173. # [09:20] * hsivonen doesn't use schemas for databinding--pure validation only
  174. # [09:20] <anne> I wonder what happens when hsivonen offers a "super strict" option that's not backed by the spec
  175. # [09:21] <sbuluf> hsivonen, idem, i'm no expert, it goes a bit over my head, but can provide links if desired
  176. # [09:21] <hsivonen> anne: whose aesthetics would it enforce? Hixie's? mine? Robert's?
  177. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> sbuluf - yeah, gimme links if you got em
  178. # [09:22] <sbuluf> mike, just a sec, please
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  180. # [09:23] <hsivonen> anyway, making only what Robert thinks is non-sloppy conforming would needlessly cause confusion for a lot of authors and more support mail for me to reply to
  181. # [09:24] <karl> ...
  182. # [09:24] <karl> amazing
  183. # [09:24] * hsivonen remembers he should direct support mail to the WHATWG list for authors
  184. # [09:24] <hsivonen> karl: what's amazing?
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  186. # [09:25] <karl> space time warps
  187. # [09:25] <MikeSmith> Given that by "sloppy coding" Robert seems to mostly mean inconsistency -- using quotation marks around attribute values in one part of your source, not using them in another ... I guess he couldn't consider a particular instance slopping if it, say, consistently omitted quotation marks around attribute values in the places where they aren't strictly necessary
  188. # [09:26] <hsivonen> what's the harm in being inconsistent with your quoting?
  189. # [09:26] <hsivonen> I'm inconsistent all the time
  190. # [09:26] * zcorpan too
  191. # [09:26] <hsivonen> tools give me double quotes
  192. # [09:26] <sbuluf> mikesmith: http://blogs.msdn.com/dareobasanjo/archive/2004/02/20/77264.aspx
  193. # [09:26] <hsivonen> but I tend to use single quotes for the hand-coded parts, because it saves me hitting shift
  194. # [09:26] <karl> hsivonen: did you work in business team?
  195. # [09:26] <karl> like Web agencies?
  196. # [09:26] <karl> or only on you own
  197. # [09:26] <sbuluf> several more links from there, or if you search a bit in dare obasanjo's blog
  198. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> sbuluf - ah, yes, Dare ... speaking of diplomatic communicators
  199. # [09:27] <hsivonen> karl: I've worked in the semi-forced military service for the goverment and I've worked for two companies that did apps with Web UIs
  200. # [09:27] <hsivonen> karl: why?
  201. # [09:28] <karl> because when you have to share things, when you have to communicate, maintain, teach things.
  202. # [09:28] <karl> More Than One Way to do it is a way to lose money and time
  203. # [09:28] <hsivonen> karl: sure, but I don't see any harm in different team members using different quote characters
  204. # [09:29] <hsivonen> karl: if you want that level of consistency, I think the conformance checker is the wrong place to implement it, because it is for a general audience--not for one team
  205. # [09:29] <karl> don't break my regex for example.
  206. # [09:30] <hsivonen> karl: in Java teams, this is accomplished by IDE settings
  207. # [09:30] <hsivonen> One True Brace Style
  208. # [09:30] <hsivonen> other indent styles still compile
  209. # [09:30] <karl> hmm interesting. hsivonen for the tools will save us. :) 180 deg
  210. # [09:30] <karl> anyway train time
  211. # [09:30] <karl> .........
  212. # [09:30] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  213. # [09:31] * hsivonen is all for IDEs will save us in the Java context :-)
  214. # [09:32] <sbuluf> mikesmith, i don't know the politics, or the people involved, i'm afraid. what i *think* (you'd need to check, since i'm no expert) i can offer, is and idea about possible relevance, and one precedent: winfs
  215. # [09:32] <hsivonen> anyway, I think document conformance is the wrong place to enshrine a particular indent or quote choice
  216. # [09:33] <hsivonen> now back to my IDE window :-)
  217. # [09:37] <MikeSmith> sbuluf - I know really nothing about winfs and background or issues around it
  218. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - so could I run your conformance checker for the command line? or at least the scheme validation parts?
  219. # [09:39] <sbuluf> i know little, just this: when MS was working on winfs, they decided not to use XSD (they complained about types). they made their own schema language, if i recall correctly
  220. # [09:42] <MikeSmith> sbuluf - I see
  221. # [09:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there's no command-line wrapper, but you could write one in few lines of code
  222. # [09:44] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK
  223. # [09:44] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/tests/jdriver/src/org/whattf/syntax/Driver.java would be the source to copy and edit
  224. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - where can I get org.whattf.checker source?
  225. # [09:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator-about/#src
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  227. # [09:51] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - thanks
  228. # [09:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: sorry the comment about dependencies was out of date
  229. # [09:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - which comment?
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  233. # [09:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the one before package decl at http://syntax.whattf.org/relaxng/tests/jdriver/src/org/whattf/syntax/Driver.java
  234. # [09:59] <hsivonen> removed from the live CVS repo already
  235. # [10:00] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - ah, OK
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  244. # [12:04] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - do you have any set of test cases for non-conformant HTML5?
  245. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: there are some in the syntax module
  246. # [12:12] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I've also used Anne's WF 2.0 tests, but using those in the test harness in now broken
  247. # [12:13] <hsivonen> as the spec stabilizes it makes sense to write more tests
  248. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - btw, do you have a good estimate of many man hours you have put into work on the conformance checker?
  249. # [12:19] <MikeSmith> ... including hours of any others that contributed to it significantly (fantasai, maybe?)
  250. # [12:20] <MikeSmith> I'm just curious
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  252. # [12:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: no estimate. lots
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  254. # [12:27] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the upper bound I can give is that there's no code written by me in there that predates October 2003.
  255. # [12:28] <hsivonen> And the validation service started around November 2004, IIRC.
  256. # [12:28] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@84.216.41.249)
  257. # [12:28] <hsivonen> Work towards applying it to HTML began in the summer of 2005.
  258. # [12:30] <hsivonen> The November 2004 date is my guess about starting design and implementation. it wasn't public until 2005
  259. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK. Was just thinking mainly about the HTML5 part, and thinking it might be good to eventually try to have an rough estimate of how many man hours are needed to implement a complete HTML5 conformance checker.
  260. # [12:33] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I cannot give an estimate that would be even remotely accurate. But I can say that the parser isn't the biggest part, so the reasoning "we have a parser in language foo, let's make a conformance checker" is missing the point
  261. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK
  262. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> One thing I wonder is, given all the dependencies of your Java implementation, how much extra work it will be to try to implement a checker in another language.
  263. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> other languages
  264. # [12:36] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the biggest question is if you another programming language plus the same schemas or a totally independent impl
  265. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> which I guess maybe are likely to lack equivalent libraries to depend on
  266. # [12:37] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: but it is going to be a lot of work. I'm far from considering the Java impl complete
  267. # [12:39] <hsivonen> afk
  268. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, I know. about the schemas, seems like it would probably not be the most productive approach to try to implement something in another language that didn't also rely partly on schema validation
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  274. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> http://www.elementary-group-standards.com/html/html5-doctype-is-unrecognized.html
  275. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> Sean Fraser
  276. # [12:58] <anne> "Sean Fraser posted this on January 22, 2007 08:30 AM."
  277. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> I reckon I should probably add his feed to the nascent HTML5 blog aggregator
  278. # [12:59] <anne> he does post a lot about it
  279. # [12:59] <anne> seems only fair
  280. # [12:59] <anne> s/only fair/correct/
  281. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> OK, added him
  282. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> http://people.w3.org/mike/planet/html5/
  283. # [13:03] <MikeSmith> any others anybody's aware of that ought to be there, let me know
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  286. # [13:08] <anne> lol
  287. # [13:09] <nickshanks> anne: can I have your ear?
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  289. # [13:10] <nickshanks> anne: i am wondering if Opera implements, or plans to implement safari's "device-pixel-ratio" css media query. would you know?
  290. # [13:11] <anne> that's the ration between CSS and normal pixels?
  291. # [13:12] <anne> ratio*
  292. # [13:13] <nickshanks> yes
  293. # [13:13] <anne> that could be useful
  294. # [13:13] <nickshanks> e.g. 1 CSS pixel to 3 device pixels would be 3.0
  295. # [13:14] <anne> euh
  296. # [13:15] <anne> 1 to 4 makes 2 sounds more logical
  297. # [13:15] <anne> anyway, if it's defined somewhere it might make sense to look into it
  298. # [13:15] <nickshanks> it's one-dimentional
  299. # [13:15] <nickshanks> well it's explained here http://webkit.org/blog/55/high-dpi-web-sites/
  300. # [13:15] <anne> one-dimentional?
  301. # [13:15] <nickshanks> though hyatt hasn't written up a formal defn i think
  302. # [13:16] <anne> I learned that blog posts (with cat pictures on top) are not specs
  303. # [13:16] <anne> some years ago
  304. # [13:16] <anne> oh so you mean 1 to 9 makes 3?
  305. # [13:16] <nickshanks> no
  306. # [13:16] <anne> it doesn't make sense to scale a pixel in just one direction
  307. # [13:17] <anne> unless I'm missing something
  308. # [13:17] <nickshanks> the ratio is applied in both directions
  309. # [13:17] <anne> yeah, so 1 to 9 makes 3
  310. # [13:17] <nickshanks> think of it as the sqrt of the difference in number of pixels
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  312. # [13:18] <nickshanks> or better yet, think of it as the zoom factor
  313. # [13:19] <nickshanks> 200% zoom would produce a factor of 2.0 (i.e. 2.0 squared more pixels per image)
  314. # [13:19] <anne> I think I understand it correctly as I explained above
  315. # [13:20] <nickshanks> okay :)
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  317. # [13:24] <nickshanks> so I'm guessing opera doesn't support it yet. who would be the person to speak to about getting it implemented?
  318. # [13:27] <anne> you could file a bug report
  319. # [13:27] <nickshanks> where to?
  320. # [13:29] <anne> http://bugs.opera.com/
  321. # [13:30] <nickshanks> should I request an account or use the plebeian option?
  322. # [13:30] <anne> I suppose the latter
  323. # [13:30] <nickshanks> ok
  324. # [14:35] <anne> the other thing to do is to get device-aspect-ratio to be replaced with device-pixel-ratio
  325. # [14:35] <anne> the former is kind of pointless
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  347. # [17:09] <anne> If we have a meeting, please the first half of August
  348. # [17:09] <anne> And not 7,8,9
  349. # [17:09] <anne> August in the US would be pretty good for me btw... I'll be 21 :)
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  361. # [18:15] * gsnedders always thought anne was older than that
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  371. # [19:17] <NiColasS> Hey! XHTML is going to be deprecated ?
  372. # [19:18] <Sander> One could hope.
  373. # [19:18] <Sander> But since there's also a working group working on XHTML 2, no. (Unless there's recent news to the contrary which I haven't heard yet.)
  374. # [19:21] <NiColasS> Users on undernet told me not to use XHTML because it is a failure of the w3c and is going to be deprecated
  375. # [19:24] <Sander> they were half right.
  376. # [19:26] <Sander> read this: http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml for why not to use XHTML on the internet at present. And then this HTML working group is reviving plain HTML as HTML5 (with an XML serialization as XHTML5). Meanwhile there's also an effort underway to specify XHTML2, but no browser makers participate in that, so the chances of it being useful on the web are very low.
  377. # [19:27] <NiColasS> but what is XHTML5 ?
  378. # [19:27] <Sander> the name given to the XML serialization of HTML5. (Almost but not quite like XHTML1 is "the same" as HTML 4.01)
  379. # [19:30] <NiColasS> thanks a lot
  380. # [19:30] <NiColasS> bye
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  382. # [19:44] <anne> XHTML2 should be renamed I think
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  385. # [20:03] <Sander> just as long as it isn't renamed to XHTML6. :P
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  388. # [20:35] <nickshanks> gsnedders: everyone here is too young to be running the internet ;-)
  389. # [20:35] <gsnedders> nickshanks: especially yourself… wait, that should be myself!
  390. # [20:37] <nickshanks> we should defer such matters to the tribal elders, who have the experience and wisdom gained from fighting in the Battles Of Our Ancestors, they will know how to write HTML specs...
  391. # [20:42] * gsnedders wasn't even born when HTML was created
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  398. # [21:22] <DanC> MikeSmith, http://people.w3.org/mike/planet/html5/ is pretty cool... I wonder about giving it a cooler URI
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The end :)