/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 19 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> I think there's about seven implementations (of which about half are decent quality) at the moment
  4. # [00:03] * Sander wonders if it might be worth publishing the entire spec in several parts: one that solely describes existing html (HTML 4.02), one for <video>, one for <canvas>, maybe a few more for other standalone elements like that, and one for everything else that's new.
  5. # [00:03] <mjs> how would separate specs define elements that are part of the HTML language?
  6. # [00:03] <Sander> I fear the amount of extra work that'd put on the editors, but it might be good for silencing the people now complaining about <font> being in there.
  7. # [00:03] <mjs> extra elements affect document conformance
  8. # [00:04] <mjs> so they'd have to be normatively referenced by the main spec
  9. # [00:04] <mjs> unless we want to force conformance checkers to have more modes
  10. # [00:06] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  11. # [00:06] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/graph3c.png - there aren't any sections that are written in a standalone manner now - it seems they all rely on lots of shared definitions with the rest of the spec
  12. # [00:08] <DanC> somebody remind me where those canvas tests are? do they include results from various browsers?
  13. # [00:08] <Philip`> The ones at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/ ?
  14. # [00:09] <Philip`> with results at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html
  15. # [00:09] <mjs> there's a bunch of different sets of tests
  16. # [00:09] <mjs> I think that section is stable enough that it's time to start building an official test suite
  17. # [00:09] <DanC> maybe that's a useful way to push things forward; the tasks survey yielded people willing to run manual tests on various browsers... I could ask them to run the canvas tests, and we could include the results in the "diffs from html4" document
  18. # [00:10] * DanC hunts for an MS IE column
  19. # [00:10] <Philip`> (Some of those tests may be a bit inaccurate - I've been trying to fix a few bits recently and then add more coverage)
  20. # [00:10] <mjs> I don't see how it makes sense to include test results in a diffs document
  21. # [00:10] <kingryan> DanC: look at the far right column
  22. # [00:10] <Philip`> IE is on the right, using the latest (second?) version of ExplorerCanvas
  23. # [00:10] <DanC> ah.
  24. # [00:11] <Philip`> Those tests don't cover any of the bits about actually drawing shapes
  25. # [00:11] <DanC> how is MS IE passing some of these tests?
  26. # [00:11] <kingryan> it'd be nice if that table had more common names for the browsers in addition to the UA strings
  27. # [00:11] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  28. # [00:11] <DanC> mjs, consider expanding the scope of "diffs document" to "diffs, status, and design principles"
  29. # [00:11] <Philip`> Running the canvas tests usually doesn't take much time - for Firefox and Opera it's less than a minute since it can do almost all of it automatically
  30. # [00:11] <kingryan> DanC: http://excanvas.sourceforge.net/
  31. # [00:12] <mjs> DanC: I'm not sure all three of those things make sense in one document
  32. # [00:12] <Philip`> and the others only take five minutes or so
  33. # [00:12] <mjs> DanC: though I would be up for publishing all three
  34. # [00:13] <DanC> mjs, consider... when J Random Reader reads the diffs document, they're likely to see some change and ask "why?" which brings up design principles and requirements.
  35. # [00:13] <DanC> Others are likely to ask "ooh... really? can I use that today?"
  36. # [00:14] <DanC> the current design principles draft has a number of examples of how changes motivate design principles.
  37. # [00:14] <DanC> er... other way around
  38. # [00:14] <jgraham> DanC: I think there's a lot to be said for making the diffs document readable in under 10 minutes
  39. # [00:14] <Philip`> (My current plan is to look at the line-cap/line-join canvas things, since there's a few problems in the spec there, and then add tests for those, then probably add radial gradient tests, then I'll probably get bored for a while and do something else)
  40. # [00:14] <DanC> yes, brevity is good
  41. # [00:15] <DanC> still, the diffs + design principles seems like it fits in 10 minutes.
  42. # [00:16] <jgraham> Maybe I don't read as fast as you :)
  43. # [00:17] <DanC> maybe separate documents published at the same time is easier.
  44. # [00:17] <DanC> but a few cross-links would be worthwhile.
  45. # [00:20] <Philip`> kingryan: I agree the UA strings aren't that nice - the relevant identification is probably browser name, version (and date if it's an unversioned nightly build, and excanvas version if it's IE), OS, and maybe something like display colour depth if that's worth testing
  46. # [00:20] <Philip`> so I'll try to change it to do something like that at some point in the future
  47. # [00:20] <kingryan> Philip`: great
  48. # [00:20] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
  49. # [00:21] <Philip`> Maybe there should also be a 'bonus points' section, so I can give Safari negative points for having two CSS bugs on the index page
  50. # [00:22] <Zeros> poor Safari
  51. # [00:22] <Zeros> that beta release has been getting them fire from all sides
  52. # [00:23] <DanC> the "fire from all sides" doesn't surprise me; the million downloads does.
  53. # [00:24] <Zeros> I didn't expect Mozilla to take offense to it
  54. # [00:24] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose I shouldn't blame Safari for this - I should just blame WebKit :-)
  55. # [00:24] <DanC> one explanation for the million downloads is that there are vast hoards of windows users willing to install just about anything out of boredom. It doesn't speak well to the zombie/spam situation.
  56. # [00:25] * DanC hasn't read the "Mozilla ... offense" stuff...
  57. # [00:25] <gavin> me neither!
  58. # [00:25] <Zeros> DanC, I think it's more that Jobs has a rather um... once he gets on stage he can sell ice cubes to eskimos. It takes a little while for the RDF to wear off.
  59. # [00:26] <Philip`> http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/06/14/a-pictures-worth-100m-users/ ?
  60. # [00:26] <DanC> so the RDF reaches a million windows users? I suppose that's plausible.
  61. # [00:27] <Philip`> It's probably not surprising to take offense at being shown with 0% market share
  62. # [00:27] <jgraham> I think the RDF was about the browser market being 80% IE, 20% Safari
  63. # [00:27] <jgraham> Or rather the future browser market
  64. # [00:27] <Philip`> (http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/06/16/the-messy-version/ for newer comments)
  65. # [00:28] <Zeros> I think apple has the power to gain some pretty substantial ground by bundling it with iTunes and QT, maybe, but it took Firefox years to get where they are now, so I'm uncertain how the cards are stacked.
  66. # [00:29] <Zeros> very odd that they chose to show them pushing FF out of the market like that
  67. # [00:30] <mjs> DanC: sure, but a design principles document hopefully will outlast the relevance of the current diffs document
  68. # [00:31] <mjs> as far as I know, we're not out to secretly destroy Firefox
  69. # [00:31] <mjs> but Fake Steve would disagree http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2007/06/mozilla-dudes-it-is-time-to-face.html
  70. # [00:36] <Zeros> It's cool how just a week after the keynote people are already foretelling apple's world domination scheme
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  75. # [00:44] <DanC> me recovers from crash. :-/
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  77. # [01:07] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
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  81. # [01:29] <Hixie> aah, more people asking for us to publish the spec
  82. # [01:30] * Hixie tries to get away from the pitchfork-wielding villagers
  83. # [01:33] <Zeros> publish?
  84. # [01:40] <Hixie> on /tr/
  85. # [01:40] <Hixie> see the list
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  87. # [01:45] <Zeros> oh
  88. # [01:45] <Zeros> heh
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  107. # [07:09] * hsivonen notes that an "RSS feed" was asked for on the mailing list. We still have an uphill PR battle with Atom.
  108. # [07:18] <karl> "rss feed" is used as a generic term I think for people
  109. # [07:19] <mjs_> Safari has an [RSS] button in the UI
  110. # [07:19] <mjs_> for both RSS and Atom feeds
  111. # [07:19] <mjs_> (wouldn't have been my first choice)
  112. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> mjs_ - that's too back
  113. # [07:19] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  114. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> bad
  115. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> mjs - why not just make it [Feed]
  116. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> hmm
  117. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> maybe I can see why not
  118. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> [Feed Me]
  119. # [07:21] <Hixie> [Subscribe] might have been better
  120. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> yeah
  121. # [07:22] <MikeSmith> "actionable" button name is usually better
  122. # [07:23] <mjs> sadly it doesn't subscribe
  123. # [07:24] <mjs> it just gives you a styled view of the feed
  124. # [07:24] <mjs> a subscribe button would be more useful
  125. # [07:24] <mjs> IMO
  126. # [07:25] <MikeSmith> mjs - that styled-view thing is still pretty nice, for what it is
  127. # [07:26] <MikeSmith> "Article length" slider is really handy
  128. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> [to dynamically limit the size of the excerpts displayed]
  129. # [07:27] <MikeSmith> I've never seen that in any other feed-reading UI
  130. # [07:28] <MikeSmith> Sort By and Recent parts are good too
  131. # [07:29] <karl> oooh and someone has release a TabExpose for Safari 3
  132. # [07:30] <karl> http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/internet_utilities/tabexpose.html
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  137. # [08:10] * karl sent the message of hsivonen to www-international
  138. # [08:10] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2007AprJun/0202.html
  139. # [08:13] <hsivonen> karl: thank you
  140. # [08:14] <karl> my pleasure
  141. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I think that Opera QA may have some test docs like that
  142. # [08:16] <MikeSmith> I guess anne would know or be able to find out
  143. # [08:17] <karl> holy cow! -> http://www.soulwax.com/
  144. # [08:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - or Peter Karlsson (developer at Opera)
  145. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> who is an encodings guru
  146. # [08:24] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: thanks
  147. # [08:25] <hsivonen> anne: are Opera's encoding tests public?
  148. # [08:37] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  149. # [08:42] <karl> http://www.ungarbage.com/ - "This concept arose from a personal effort aimed to turn the Web a better place. Actually there are a lot of web designers doing the same right now, and the magical words are "Web Standards". Like a useless newspaper, many websites are being daily discarded by their owners and target; therefore it's time to attack the reasons."
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  152. # [09:17] <anne> don't think so
  153. # [09:18] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.33.233)
  154. # [09:18] * tH_ is now known as tH
  155. # [09:19] <karl> I wonder how hard it would be to convince browser companies to actually submit their test suites. It seems silly to me that the WG is asking always for test suites with browser vendors participating and at the same time not distributing the tests
  156. # [09:20] <mjs> karl: WebKit tests are all available in a public SVN repository
  157. # [09:20] <mjs> karl: but they haven't been designed for conformance testing, so would need review
  158. # [09:20] <mjs> we are happy to have our tests or modified versions thereof go into the official test suite
  159. # [09:21] <Hixie> most of hte tests opera uses are hixie.ch or on anne's site, i think
  160. # [09:21] <mjs> but it would take an expert to collect and review tests
  161. # [09:21] <mjs> webkit tests are aimed more at regression testing than conformance testing
  162. # [09:21] <anne> tc.labs.opera.com has quite some too
  163. # [09:21] <mjs> but a bunch could make a good basis for conformance tests
  164. # [09:21] <anne> but there's quite a lot of internal stuff too
  165. # [09:22] * anne wonders why DanC suggested to take <canvas> and <video> out!
  166. # [09:22] <anne> people love those
  167. # [09:22] <anne> and they are actually being implemented
  168. # [09:29] <mjs> considering whole new features relative to HTML4 (as opposed to clarification / cleanup), those two are probably the most valuable
  169. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> mjs - Web Forms features too
  170. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> if you count those
  171. # [09:32] <mjs> MikeSmith: I'm kind of thinking in terms of "constructs where people currently step out of open web standards entirely to use that feature"
  172. # [09:32] <mjs> so <canvas>, <video>, and the various offline storage things seem most important to me
  173. # [09:32] <mjs> but I probably have an oddly biased view
  174. # [09:32] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  175. # [09:32] <Hixie> we need to figure something out for offline cache pinning
  176. # [09:33] <Hixie> the thing that the google guy sent recently is a great starting point
  177. # [09:33] <mjs> I plan to write detailed comments on the google thing and the mozilla proposed API
  178. # [09:33] <mjs> might be able to do that as soon as wednesday
  179. # [09:33] <mjs> then a round of <video> review comments
  180. # [09:39] * Joins: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
  181. # [09:40] <hsivonen> where did DanC suggest dropping <canvas> and <video>?
  182. # [09:40] * hsivonen has missed something
  183. # [09:40] <anne> he suggested taking out controversial stuff, such as canvas and video
  184. # [09:41] <anne> apparently Apple didn't like video and Microsoft didn't like canvas
  185. # [09:41] <anne> however, I think Apple is "against" the should for Ogg Theora, not <video>
  186. # [09:42] <mjs> Apple likes video
  187. # [09:42] <mjs> 80% of the <video> spec is due to our proposal!
  188. # [09:42] <mjs> and afaik we have no deep problem with the current SHOULD-level requirement for Theora
  189. # [09:43] <mjs> if Microsoft doesn't like <canvas>, they can state their objections
  190. # [09:43] <mjs> I saw vague FUD about it from Chris Wilson
  191. # [09:43] <mjs> but nothing substantive
  192. # [09:43] <anne> yeah, where are the technical comments!
  193. # [09:43] <mjs> he has no excuse not to review now
  194. # [09:43] * hsivonen guesses that <canvas> won't disappear if the W3C pull out of documenting it
  195. # [09:44] <mjs> I'd still prefer the W3C not pull things arbitrarily
  196. # [09:44] <mjs> then we might have to fork the HTML spec again, which would be annoying
  197. # [09:45] <mjs> but yeah if MS doesn't like it they should state their objection
  198. # [09:45] <anne> yeah, <canvas> is part of HTML
  199. # [09:46] <mjs> since it has three implementations in major browsers on Windows, I don't think they can use the "hard to implement with GDI" excuse
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  201. # [09:48] * anne just got 8 e-mails from hsivonen
  202. # [09:48] * hsivonen wonders if he should write a ninth one
  203. # [09:49] * anne creates a hsivonen folder
  204. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> mjs, hsivonen - I don't think you need to worry about "W3C" pulling anything arbitrarily from the HTML5 spec
  205. # [09:51] <Hixie> lol @ anne
  206. # [10:01] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.161) (Quit: Leaving)
  207. # [10:32] <DanC> ah... good... we have 2 reviewers signed up for the canvas section. That gives a handy trigger for me to swap in the relevant details.
  208. # [10:33] <mjs> I'd really like review comments on canvas from someone at Microsoft
  209. # [10:33] <mjs> since (a) they have apparently objected to its inclusion and (b) they are the only major browser not to implement it yet
  210. # [10:34] <anne> canvas is heavily reviewed by other implementors and also by developers, such as Philip` (who also made a cool testsuite)
  211. # [10:34] <anne> together with parsing one of the better sections of the spec I think
  212. # [10:34] <mjs> Apple's last few review passes have resulted mostly in WebKit bug reports rather than spec changes
  213. # [10:34] <mjs> (for canvas)
  214. # [10:34] <Hixie> sweet
  215. # [10:35] <Hixie> glad to hear that
  216. # [10:35] <mjs> I still don't feel 100% solid on the pixel access stuff though
  217. # [10:35] <anne> me neither
  218. # [10:36] <anne> DanC, review comments on html4-differences are welcome (including on <canvas>)
  219. # [10:37] <anne> I suppose I could include an example how to draw a green rectangle, but I'm not sure that's useful :)
  220. # [10:38] <MikeSmith> I wonder how we have managed to get by without the word "conformant" being defined in most dictionaries.
  221. # [10:38] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC, I have reported that to Hixie
  222. # [10:38] <DanC> hello-world examples for new features would be nice... but I'm not sure they're worth the screenspace. Maybe pointers to existing test materials or tutorials are worthwhile?
  223. # [10:39] <Lionheart> <video> is an important one, I agree
  224. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> There are cases where you really do want to use "conformant" instead of "conforming" as an adjective
  225. # [10:39] <hsivonen> from French import *
  226. # [10:40] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - reported it to Hixie?
  227. # [10:40] <anne> What I do want to do is explain the development model of the spec which also involves talking about implementations
  228. # [10:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think I have reported it some time that conformant is not an English word according to dictionaries
  229. # [10:41] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: to Hixie, I think
  230. # [10:42] <hsivonen> though nowadays I think adding it to dictionaries is a better fix than changing spec prose
  231. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> ah, OK. Another case of why published dictionaries aren't always relevant, maybe
  232. # [10:42] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - or just ignoring the fact that the dictionaries are not up to date
  233. # [10:43] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: that works, too
  234. # [10:44] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  235. # [10:46] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I've been meaning to ask if you can let me know what good lists for discussions about automated validation and conformance-checking tools.
  236. # [10:46] <Lionheart> I´d like to see <ruby> come in. Mainly because it´s a valuable element, but also because if the XHTML version of HTML5 were termed XHTML 1.5, then it would be fitting to support the couple elements introduced in XHTML 1.1.
  237. # [10:47] <mjs> I think ruby is slated for addition
  238. # [10:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: rng-users at yahoo groups, www-validator for things related to tools deployed at the W3C and the feedvalidator list
  239. # [10:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I don't know of any generic ones
  240. # [10:47] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oh and schematron-lovein
  241. # [10:47] <anne> <ruby> needs to be added; we need to figure out 1) how Internet Explorer parses it and 2) what it "means"
  242. # [10:48] <anne> 1) has sort of been done, but maybe not extensively enough
  243. # [10:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the html5 user list at whatwg for issues related to http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator/
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  246. # [10:50] <Lionheart> Something that´s been on my HTML wishlist from way back was HTML 3.0´s <credit>.
  247. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Lionheart: what's the use case?
  248. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Lionheart: for quotes? for authorship of the doc itself?
  249. # [10:51] <anne> people have proposed <credit> to work with <blockquote> and <figure> I believe
  250. # [10:51] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  251. # [10:51] <Lionheart> <blockquote><p>¨...¨</p> <credit>...</credit></blockquote>
  252. # [10:51] <anne> (although those proposals were not connected, but I think the element makes sense for both)
  253. # [10:51] <bogi> That's the same as <cite> ?
  254. # [10:51] * mjs wishes there were an element for an address that is not contact info for the page or section
  255. # [10:52] <Lionheart> It´s structurally tied to the blockquote
  256. # [10:52] <anne> mjs, class= + microformats
  257. # [10:53] <anne> HTML5 does have <p><cite>... </cite><blockquote><p>...</blockquote> now to deal with making them tied
  258. # [10:53] <mjs> anne: seems too useful to only be available as a microformat
  259. # [10:53] <mjs> anne: maybe if microformats came with useful conformance requirements for consumers I would be more excited about them
  260. # [10:53] <anne> but it's been argued that you really want the source as part of the "block"
  261. # [10:54] <anne> mjs, I've been telling some of the mf evengalists that...
  262. # [10:54] <mjs> I'm not even sure if they have very clear conformance requirements for producers
  263. # [10:54] <mjs> but at least those are sort of there
  264. # [10:55] <hsivonen> mjs: when I asked for conformance requirements at XTech 2006, I honestly thought the lack thereof was an oversight and the uf community would provide them in due course
  265. # [10:55] <hsivonen> mjs: after anne asked for them in XTech 2007, I no longer believe that
  266. # [10:56] <hsivonen> mjs: the answer anne got was that he could contribute those
  267. # [10:56] <mjs> hsivonen: tantek doesn't think such things are important, I think
  268. # [10:56] <mjs> unsurprising, given that he thinks the HTML 4.01 spec has clear conformance requirements
  269. # [10:56] <hsivonen> I'd much prefer the uf community taking care of Microformats5 themselves
  270. # [10:57] <mjs> I do think some of the more basic things should make their way into HTML itself over time
  271. # [10:58] <mjs> maybe this will become important when/if there is real UA support for microformats
  272. # [10:59] <hsivonen> too bad RDFa won't save us in practice: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hsivonen/511064298/in/set-72157600252402704/
  273. # [10:59] <Lionheart> I´m not so sure <credit> is the way to go any more, because the way blockquotes work in research papers is more like -- <p>As <cite>J. Pompus Authoritycakes</cite> noted,</p> <blockquote><p>Blah blah bleebity blah...</p></blockquote>
  274. # [10:59] <anne> that construct is supported by HTML5
  275. # [10:59] <anne> fwiw
  276. # [11:00] <Lionheart> So perhaps perhaps some sort of IDREF on <cite> to marry it to the <blockquote> would suffice
  277. # [11:00] <anne> what's wrong with implicit association based on structure?
  278. # [11:00] <hsivonen> the default presentation of <cite> sucks for that use case, which makes me guess that the construct won't be used except by a handful of semantics geeks
  279. # [11:01] <DanC> aw, come on, can't we keep <cite> for titles of works?
  280. # [11:01] * hsivonen agrees with DanC on titles of works
  281. # [11:01] <Lionheart> DanC: That's how <cite> is actually used.
  282. # [11:02] <anne> from HTML4: 'As <CITE>Harry S. Truman</CITE> said, <Q lang="en-us">The buck stops here.</Q>'
  283. # [11:02] <Hixie> they're already married in html5
  284. # [11:02] <DanC> the most widely used tool in W3C for meeting minutes misuses <cite> too. sigh.
  285. # [11:02] <hsivonen> anne: since when has HTML4 been a reference for things like this?-)
  286. # [11:02] <DanC> yes, I was asleep at the wheel when that Truman stuff got into HTML 4
  287. # [11:04] <anne> hsivonen, just replying to DanC
  288. # [11:04] <hsivonen> anne: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070607#l-797
  289. # [11:05] <Lionheart> Hixie: Oh, I guess I missed that. If so, my bad.
  290. # [11:06] * Quits: jmb (jmb@81.86.70.47) (Ping timeout)
  291. # [11:16] <Lionheart> Anyhow, even if one did want to follow a blockquote with a source citation, perhaps one could do that by treating it as a <figure> caption.
  292. # [11:17] <anne> it's interesting how <figure> went from just being for embedded content to a wrapper for all kinds of content :)
  293. # [11:17] <Lionheart> <figure><blockquote><p>But now I shall shortly proffer him the strength and the courage of the Geats in combat. He who has the right to it shall go once more to the mead-drinking with confident heart, after the morning light of another day, the sun clothed in ethereal radiance, shines from the south upon the children of men.</p></blockquote> <legend>Beowulf replying to Unferth, from the Anglo-Saxon poem "Beowolf", Cotton Vitellus A xv manuscript</legend></fig
  294. # [11:23] <Lionheart> anne: Well, not yet it hasn't, I think, but it's something to consider
  295. # [11:25] <anne> Other people already popped up examples wrapping it around <table>, <pre>... The specification indeed doesn't allow that
  296. # [11:26] <Lionheart> Well, <table> already has <caption> for that
  297. # [11:28] <Lionheart> But it would be nice for it to consistently fit into <figure> that way too
  298. # [11:28] <hsivonen> Lionheart: can't do for compat weirdness
  299. # [11:29] <hsivonen> Lionheart: that is, legacy constrains us so that we can't use <caption> elsewhere
  300. # [11:29] <anne> not sure <legend> is compatible enough though
  301. # [11:30] <anne> <legend> parsing happens to be quite a mess too outside <fieldset>
  302. # [11:33] <Lionheart> As anne said, isn't <legend> being reused in that very manner -- and to do a second different thing, unlike <caption> which is used in another context to do exactly the same thing.
  303. # [11:33] * Joins: zcorpan (zcorpan@88.131.66.80)
  304. # [11:33] <anne> Lionheart, no, <caption> is truly screwed
  305. # [11:33] <anne> Lionheart, there are very specific parsing rules for <caption> which means that any element that would reuse it can't be inside <table>
  306. # [11:35] <Lionheart> Because a table could end up with several <caption>s nested at varying depths? I figured the parsing rules would only regard <caption>s that are immediate children of the <table> element for the purpose of captioning the table
  307. # [11:37] <hsivonen> I wasn't saying anything about the appropriateness of reusing <legend>
  308. # [11:37] <Lionheart> A distinction that should be simple to express in XPath, but perhaps I am missing something.
  309. # [11:41] <Lionheart> hsivonen: How is it that legacy constrains <caption> and not <legend>, though?
  310. # [11:42] <hsivonen> Lionheart: I wasn't saying anything about how legacy constrains <legend>
  311. # [11:43] <anne> Lionheart, I fail to see how XPath is relevant here
  312. # [11:45] <Hixie> we can't use <caption> because then you could never nest them
  313. # [11:46] <Hixie> IE doesn't have many problems with <legend>
  314. # [11:46] <anne> I wouldn't say that
  315. # [11:46] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21doctype%20html%3E%3Clegend%3Exxxx%3C/legend%3Exxxx%3Clegend%3Exxx%3C/legend%3E
  316. # [11:47] <Lionheart> anne: It's not, I was thinking about XSL parsing and interjected an irrelevancy, I'm afraid.
  317. # [11:47] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21doctype%20html%3E%3Cp%3Ex%3Clegend%3Ex%3C/legend%3E
  318. # [11:48] <beowulf> is anyone here working/thinking on tutorials?
  319. # [11:48] <anne> not me
  320. # [11:48] <Hixie> huh, that's weird
  321. # [11:48] * anne is all about explaining the differences
  322. # [11:49] <Hixie> so what, it can handle one <legend> only?
  323. # [11:49] <Hixie> weird
  324. # [11:49] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21doctype%20html%3Ex%3Cfigure%3E%3Cimg%3E%3Clegend%3Ex%3C/legend%3E%3C/figure%3Ex
  325. # [11:49] <anne> the second example has a single legend
  326. # [11:49] <anne> it can't handle that
  327. # [11:49] <anne> because it's nested inside a <p> that has "x" before it
  328. # [11:49] <Hixie> it can handle <legend> that isn't preceeded by text
  329. # [11:49] <Hixie> that's silly :-)
  330. # [11:49] <Hixie> oh well
  331. # [11:49] <Lionheart> I'm more about constructing examples and informative use cases.
  332. # [11:49] <Hixie> still better than <caption>
  333. # [11:50] <anne> I suppose
  334. # [11:50] <Lionheart> Do you have an URL I can use to see nested <caption>s freak IE out?
  335. # [11:51] <zcorpan> figure legends inside fieldsets that don't have legends doesn't render right. this might be a reason to require legends for fieldsets
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  337. # [11:51] <anne> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21doctype%20html%3Ex%3Ctable%3E%3Ccaption%3Exxx%3C/caption%3E%3Ctbody%3E%3Ctr%3E%3Ctd%3E%3Ccaption%3Exxx%3C/caption%3E
  338. # [11:51] <anne> Lionheart, you can play around yourself with that tool :)
  339. # [11:52] * anne wonders how CSS deals with multiple captions
  340. # [11:52] * anne is afraid it doesn't
  341. # [11:53] <Hixie> ugh http://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12646
  342. # [11:53] <Hixie> oops, wc
  343. # [11:55] <beowulf> well if anyone is interested in working on a tutorial I'd like to help
  344. # [11:55] <beowulf> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple # i've started something here
  345. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> beowulf - ping karl when he's on
  346. # [11:56] <Lionheart> It's a little funny to talk about IE mishandling <figure><caption> when no browser can even handle <figure>.
  347. # [11:56] <beowulf> i keep second guessing myself with the various voices from the list
  348. # [11:56] <beowulf> MikeSmith: ta
  349. # [11:56] * hsivonen wonders if the Chris Petersen in the WebKit bug report is the Chris Petersen previously of Netscape
  350. # [11:56] <Lionheart> Presumably that's an issue that would get resolved when <figure> support was added
  351. # [11:57] <anne> Lionheart, we don't want to introduce truly strange parsing rules for the new elements
  352. # [11:57] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes, it is
  353. # [11:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
  354. # [12:03] <Lionheart> anne: Good policy, though I still don't quite get what makes <caption> so strange.
  355. # [12:05] <anne> Lionheart, #whatwg has this topic: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
  356. # [12:06] <Hixie> yeah, browsers are weird
  357. # [12:07] <zcorpan> Lionheart: consider this markup: <table><tr><td> ... <figure><caption>
  358. # [12:07] <zcorpan> Lionheart: in current browsers, the caption will be the table's caption
  359. # [12:08] <zcorpan> fieldset has the same problem but html4 requires fieldsets to have legends
  360. # [12:14] <MikeSmith> browsers blow ... if we can just remove the browsers from the content-delivery chain, all our problems are solved
  361. # [12:22] <anne> yeah man, curl all the way
  362. # [12:27] <MikeSmith> anne - telnet to port 80
  363. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> anne - speaking of browsers, I guess features of Opera Mini are now public info
  364. # [12:31] <MikeSmith> intelligent/adaptive zooming is great
  365. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> Opera Mobile doesn't even have that yet, as far as I know
  366. # [12:32] <anne> Mini 4 is pretty cool, yes
  367. # [12:32] * zcorpan played with it yesterday
  368. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> what is the footprint now? do you you guys know?
  369. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> used to be 100K or so
  370. # [12:32] <MikeSmith> wondering how much it may have gone up (if at all)
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  393. # [17:27] <Lionheart> I'm loving <dialog>, by the way. HTML has long lacked proper markup for screenplay format. However, one thing that keeps it from markup nirvana: <dialog><dt>Fezzik <dd>He's got very good arms.</dialog> <p>[The man in black clings to cliff hundreds of feet above jagged rocks.]</p> <dialog><dt>Vizzini <dd>He didn't fall? Inconceivable! <dt>Inigo <dd>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. </dialog>
  394. # [17:28] <anne> I suppose <p> or <li> might get added for that whenever that section of the spec is being worked on again.
  395. # [17:28] <Lionheart> If you break <dialog> like this for a stage direction, you'll need to add absolute positioning styling to keep each the two parts of the dialog lined up
  396. # [17:28] <anne> One argument against it I believe is that people might start believing that they can put every element they like inside <dialog> if a generic element like <p> is allowed.
  397. # [17:29] <Lionheart> Well it can be called something other than <p> but have the same content model
  398. # [17:34] <Lionheart> Although, on the other hand, <dialog><h3>INT. HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM - NIGHT</h3>...</dialog>
  399. # [17:35] <Lionheart> Hm. maybe <li> and <lh>
  400. # [17:36] <Lionheart> To borrow <lh> from XHTML2
  401. # [17:37] <Lionheart> (Which would also be a good thing to take from XHTML2 on its own merits, too.)
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  403. # [17:39] <Lionheart> So that example would become: <dialog><lh>EXT. ATOP THE CLIFFS OF INSANITY</lh><dt>Fezzik <dd>He's got very good arms. <li>[The man in black clings to cliff hundreds of feet above jagged rocks.] <dt>Vizzini <dd>He didn't fall? Inconceivable! <dt>Inigo <dd>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. </dialog>
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  419. # [21:13] <anne> Lionheart, are there good use cases for <lh>?
  420. # [21:13] <anne> Lionheart, why not put the heading before the dialog?
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  430. # [22:12] <gsnedders> anne: do you mean that the WG should create more than one tutorial?
  431. # [22:16] <anne> I don't think it's a goal of the WG to produce an official tutorial
  432. # [22:17] <DanC> it's sort of a goal of mine... I wonder if I'm abusing my position or if it's in the charter...
  433. # [22:19] <DanC> nope; doesn't seem to be in the charter.
  434. # [22:20] <anne> I'd be fine with things like a primer btw, but I'd love for everyone to not just copy what the W3C say and make up their own mind within the constraints given by the spec
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  436. # [22:21] <gsnedders> there seem to be a decent number of people within the WG wanting to write one, though
  437. # [22:22] <anne> I've yet to see a person to actually do it
  438. # [22:22] <anne> actually, someone did start
  439. # [22:22] <DanC> really? what did I miss?
  440. # [22:22] <anne> but it's very basic: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Example_simple
  441. # [22:24] <gsnedders> what is a tag?
  442. # [22:25] <DanC> once I saw a tutorial that started with a plain text file... a news article, as I recall... and showed how to add HTML markup. I like that structure
  443. # [22:26] <gsnedders> I've always liked Why's (Poignant) Guide To Ruby <http://poignantguide.net/>
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  449. # [22:42] <beowulf> i like why's poignant guide too
  450. # [22:43] <beowulf> i was trying to write a tutorial that would satisfy the people on the list, i don't think that's possible, you just second guess everything
  451. # [22:45] <beowulf> but most of all i'd just like to be bouncing ideas off someone regarding a tutorial (if we're to have one) rather than ... well whatever the discussion on tutorials has been so far
  452. # [22:48] <gsnedders> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0283.html (and further on that thread) give my comments
  453. # [22:54] <beowulf> i've read the thread
  454. # [22:55] <anne> I just added two subsections to the introduction: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html
  455. # [22:55] <anne> Feedback welcome
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  457. # [23:01] <gsnedders> anne: under 2.1 I wouldn't use an ellipsis. slightly confusing at first glance
  458. # [23:01] <anne> 2.1?
  459. # [23:02] <gsnedders> anne: char encoding
  460. # [23:02] <DanC> re intro of html-4 differences, the "Improves markup for documents" bullet doesn't make sense to me
  461. # [23:03] <anne> Improved maybe?
  462. # [23:03] <anne> actually, no
  463. # [23:03] <anne> why doesn't it make sense?
  464. # [23:03] <gsnedders> anne: what context is it improving it in?
  465. # [23:03] <anne> gsnedders, inside <meta http-equiv>?
  466. # [23:03] <gsnedders> anne: yes
  467. # [23:04] <anne> gsnedders, structure and such, things like <figure>, <section>, etc.
  468. # [23:04] <anne> <hr>
  469. # [23:06] <DanC> "Improves markup for documents" is coherent english, but as a bald claim, it adds little
  470. # [23:06] <DanC> I don't know how it relates to anything else in the diffs document
  471. # [23:07] <DanC> I think I suggested something like "specifies markup for emerging idioms"
  472. # [23:07] <gsnedders> anne: that isn't obvious. I can just about work that out from my knowledge of HTML 5, but someone who doesn't know the spec…
  473. # [23:07] <anne> that's 4
  474. # [23:07] <anne> it relates to the first bit of the section on new elements
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  476. # [23:08] <anne> I suppose I could elaborate, but bullet points are supposed to be short
  477. # [23:08] * DanC tries to think of something concise
  478. # [23:08] <anne> I have to go now, I'll look in the logs and my inbox tomorrow
  479. # [23:09] <DanC> "Captures idioms for figures and sections in standardized markup". blech
  480. # [23:09] <DanC> ok. hasta.
  481. # [23:09] <anne> what's new specifically since last week btw is section 1.1 and 1.2
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  484. # [23:10] <DanC> hmm... development model... just when i was getting comfortable with leaving status info out of the diffs document.
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  486. # [23:16] <Philip`> "By the time the HTML5 specification is finished there will be two complete implementations of the specification." sounds like a prediction - it should probably be more explicit, like "The HTML5 specification will not be considered finished before there are at least two complete implementations of the specification."
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The end :)