/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-20 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jun 20 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [03:19] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/multimedia.html#VideoElement
  18. # [03:19] <karl> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html#video
  19. # [03:19] <heycam> Hixie, HTMLDocument.getElementsByClassName is declared to take a DOMString[], yet one of the examples in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html#getelementsbyclassname passes it a plain string
  20. # [03:20] <Hixie> HTMLDocument.getElementsByClassName is a mess right now
  21. # [03:20] <Hixie> i've gotten feedback from the mozilla guys and will be making the spec better in due course
  22. # [03:20] <heycam> in what direction?
  23. # [03:21] <Hixie> towards whatever they did
  24. # [03:21] <Hixie> i forget what that is
  25. # [03:21] <heycam> aha :)
  26. # [03:21] <karl> SVG 1.2 Tiny
  27. # [03:21] <karl> <video xlink:href="noonoo.avi" audio-level=".8" type="video/x-msvideo"
  28. # [03:21] <karl> width="320" height="240" x="50" y="50" repeatCount="indefinite"/>
  29. # [03:22] <heycam> the syntax (and dom interface) is quite different for the svg and html video elements
  30. # [03:23] <karl> yes I can imagine
  31. # [03:23] <heycam> one point is that in svg, the video element is meant to fit in with the smil timing stuff, whereas in html that's not the aim
  32. # [03:23] <karl> I was trying to figure out what would be the "equivalent" example between the two.
  33. # [03:23] <karl> comparing markups
  34. # [03:24] <karl> <video src="noonoo.avi">blabla</video>
  35. # [03:25] <karl> hmm there is no markup example in HTML 5 spec.
  36. # [03:26] <heycam> there doesn't seem to be a way to do repeatCount="indefinite" in html's video element with the loopCount attribute
  37. # [03:26] <heycam> (you can only give it a positive integer
  38. # [03:26] <heycam> )
  39. # [03:27] <karl> I guess it is the loopstart and loopend attributes
  40. # [03:27] <heycam> i think those specify which range of the video to loop
  41. # [03:28] <karl> "The loopend content attribute gives an offset into the media resource at which playback is to jump back to the loopstart, when looping the clip. The default value is infinity."
  42. # [03:28] <heycam> oh
  43. # [03:29] <Hixie> the lack of infinite loopCount is intentional, it's to discourage sites from having infinitely looping video (since that's considered bad form)
  44. # [03:29] <heycam> i think that just gives the end point of the video to show when looping (equivalent to the dur attribute on svg's video or something)
  45. # [03:30] <heycam> Hixie, won't people just put 2**32-1 (or whatever) in the attribute to achieve the same thing?
  46. # [03:30] <karl> Hixie: what about someone using kiosk mode of a browser for a presentation booth.
  47. # [03:30] <karl> yes I guess people will give high numbers
  48. # [03:30] <karl> ;)
  49. # [03:30] <Hixie> heycam: oh it doesn't stop them (e.g. you can just use scripting), but it should at least give someone pause
  50. # [03:31] <Hixie> by not having an explicit way, people are less likely to actually do it without thinking about it
  51. # [03:31] <Hixie> if something is easy, they're more likely to do it without thinking about it
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  53. # [03:33] <karl> huh
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  55. # [03:37] <karl> oooh I had missed that. SVG in Safari.
  56. # [03:39] <karl> I wonder if there is a more recent status page - http://www.eseidel.com/svg-status.xml
  57. # [03:40] <karl> http://webkit.org/projects/svg/index.html
  58. # [03:41] <karl> http://webkit.org/projects/svg/status.xml
  59. # [03:41] <mjs> karl: you can ask in #webkit on freenode if you have specific questions
  60. # [03:41] <karl> this one doesn't seem updated either
  61. # [03:41] <mjs> I'm not sure if any of the web status is up to date
  62. # [03:42] <karl> ok. thanks mjs
  63. # [03:43] <karl> I should try to make an XHTML+SVG page with a video element into it to see how it is working
  64. # [03:44] <mjs> the SVG video element does not work in Safari 3 Beta
  65. # [03:44] <mjs> we're only targetting SVG 1.1, which does not have it, and even that isn't complete
  66. # [03:44] <mjs> but maybe we will add it when we add HTML5 <video>
  67. # [03:44] <karl> ah ok :)
  68. # [03:50] <Lionheart> gsnedders: Wow, that opening chapter is a heckuva grabber
  69. # [03:51] <Lionheart> gsnedders: Thank you for recommending why's poignant guide to ruby. I think I'll enjoy reading the rest of it
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  74. # [04:54] <karl> http://edutf.webstandards.org/survey.php
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  97. # [08:54] * karl is reading http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#semantics
  98. # [08:54] <karl> I wonder if Hixie wishes to receive text suggestions for occasional red boxes
  99. # [09:02] <Hixie> feel free to create issues for those like anything else, indeed
  100. # [09:03] <karl> ok. Thanks
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  102. # [09:17] <hsivonen> does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ have the latest from CVS all the time?
  103. # [09:18] <karl> hsivonen: yes
  104. # [09:19] <hsivonen> karl: ok. was this announced on the mailing list?
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  106. # [09:24] <hsivonen> swapped the cleaner URI into wikipedia
  107. # [09:27] <karl> hsivonen: not yet
  108. # [09:28] <karl> but it is public as it is in the logs of IRC
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  110. # [09:30] * hsivonen smiles at the HTML5 not being "notable" in previous wikipedia Talk page discussions
  111. # [09:31] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5
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  113. # [09:33] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules-checker?year=2007&uimode=checker&check=Run+checker&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fhtml5%2F&display=all
  114. # [09:33] <Hixie> why does that not work?
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  121. # [10:51] <anne> Hixie, buffer limit? :)
  122. # [10:51] <Hixie> that would suck
  123. # [10:51] <anne> In my experience the tool from Bert Bos always generates pubrules compliant stuff
  124. # [10:52] <anne> I always make a few changes such as changing "Editor's draft" to "W3C Working Draft" and changing a style sheet link
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  126. # [10:53] <Hixie> oh there are a LOT of ways that bert's script can make things non-pubrules-compliant, mostly things like my having broken links, not having the right boilerplate in the status section, etc
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  128. # [11:47] <anne> Philip`, made that change
  129. # [11:47] <anne> DanC, open to suggestions regarding "development model"
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  170. # [18:39] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - now with some line-drawing tests (and associated failures), and I've found that it takes me somewhere between 15 seconds and a couple of minutes to gather the 230 results for a single browser
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  172. # [19:18] <Philip`> (...I should probably note that the line tests don't actually agree with the spec, but that's because I think the spec is wrong)
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  183. # [20:49] <Lionheart> When I do a HTML5 test suite, I would use <blockcode> all over it, if HTML5 were to incorporate that proposal from XHTML2.
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  185. # [20:50] <Philip`> Use <xmp>
  186. # [20:51] <Philip`> (...except it's buggy in Opera, so that's not great :-( )
  187. # [20:51] <zcorpan> <pre><code>? <xmp> is not conforming html5
  188. # [20:51] <Lionheart> Wasn't that deprecated way back in HTML 2?
  189. # [20:51] <zcorpan> probably
  190. # [20:52] <Philip`> Sounds likely, but I like using <plaintext> too now that I know it exists :-)
  191. # [20:52] <zcorpan> oh yep, i use plaintext all the time :)
  192. # [20:52] <zcorpan> at least in tests
  193. # [20:53] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html - I couldn't think of any reliable way to implement that without <plaintext>
  194. # [20:54] <zcorpan> what a use-case! :D
  195. # [20:55] <Lionheart> I hadn't heard of <plaintext>.
  196. # [20:56] <Philip`> It's sadly underappreciated nowadays
  197. # [20:56] <zcorpan> it was introduced in html 1.0 because it had great performance, aiui
  198. # [20:56] <zcorpan> if the rest of your document is plain text, why process it as html?
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  200. # [20:58] <zcorpan> (or "1.0", or pre-1.0, whichever you like)
  201. # [20:59] <Lionheart> Ugh. That's a pretty ugly kludge. And the special cases that <xmp>/<plaintext> type tags entail for DOM tree generating, XML parsing for XHTML, and so forth is... not elegant.
  202. # [21:01] <zcorpan> Lionheart: i'm confused. dom tree generating? xml parsing?
  203. # [21:04] <Lionheart> zcorpan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#structure
  204. # [21:04] <Philip`> In XML, it ought to be parsed like normal HTML and just get styled in a similar way to pre/code/tt/etc
  205. # [21:05] <Philip`> Uh
  206. # [21:05] <Philip`> *parsed like normal XML
  207. # [21:05] <zcorpan> Lionheart: i know what dom and xml is, i just don't see why they would be affected by html parsing rules
  208. # [21:07] <Philip`> Ooh, I just realised that plaintext would be great in places like GeoCities where they append "</object></layer></div></span></style></noscript></table></script></applet>...lots of adverts..." onto your document, since there's nothing they could do to stop it
  209. # [21:07] <Lionheart> Well, the idea being that <plaintext> <p> some text </plaintext> in the DOM would be a PLAINTEXT object with one text node child for "<p> some text", instead of a PLAINTEXT node containing a P node containing a text node.
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  211. # [21:08] <Philip`> Lionheart: The plaintext node would contain the text "<p> some text </plaintext>" (and the rest of the document up until EOF)
  212. # [21:09] <Lionheart> Well, presumably "</plaintext>" gets some sort of special treatment when in the "plaintext-parsing" mode
  213. # [21:09] <zcorpan> Lionheart: no
  214. # [21:09] <zcorpan> that's the idea of plaintext. you parse the rest of the document as plain text
  215. # [21:10] <Lionheart> Oh, is that how <plaintext> works? I misunderstood it.
  216. # [21:10] <zcorpan> yes
  217. # [21:10] <zcorpan> however, the way you thought plaintext works is the way style and script works
  218. # [21:10] <Lionheart> So you can only use it once, at the end of the document. That's even worse.
  219. # [21:10] <zcorpan> and title and textarea (sort of)
  220. # [21:12] <zcorpan> well, in ie you can use it multiple times by using </plaintext> (without a preceding <plaintext>), but it doesn't make it any more useful :)
  221. # [21:12] <Philip`> Since the </body></html> is optional, you can still make almost-conforming documents with <plaintext> since all the missing closing tags get inferred nicely :-)
  222. # [21:13] <zcorpan> <plaintext> in and of itself is a parse error
  223. # [21:14] <zcorpan> or so i thought
  224. # [21:14] <Philip`> That's why it's just "almost-conforming" :-(
  225. # [21:14] <zcorpan> seems it isn't a parse error
  226. # [21:14] <zcorpan> but that doesn't make it conforming
  227. # [21:14] <Lionheart> So <plaintext> is a kind of markup abortion.
  228. # [21:14] <zcorpan> yeah
  229. # [21:15] <Philip`> More like markup suicide
  230. # [21:16] <zcorpan> birth of plain text? :)
  231. # [21:17] <Lionheart> Oh, and thanks krijnhoetmer.nl for preserving THAT metaphor for posterity... :-P
  232. # [21:19] <Lionheart> Anyhow, my valid HTML4 alternative would be <pre>. <blockcode> is like <pre> with <code> semantics.
  233. # [21:20] <zcorpan> html5 defines <pre><code>...</code></pre> to be a block of code
  234. # [21:23] <Lionheart> I use that now, and <pre><samp> ... </samp></pre> for generated output.
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  236. # [21:27] <Lionheart> Which brings up a negative of <blockcode>: if you have that, then you might as well have <blocksamp> and <blockkbd> too
  237. # [21:27] <Lionheart> gtg
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  240. # [21:29] <zcorpan> seems like ie stops appending characters to the string when getting innerHTML after it has dealt with the children of a plaintext element
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  249. # [22:46] <Hixie> heh, someone in the publish survey used a belling the cat analogy
  250. # [22:46] <Hixie> not too far from what we're doing!
  251. # [22:48] <hsivonen> is belling the cat synonymous to bikeshedding?
  252. # [22:50] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  253. # [22:50] <hsivonen> it seems not
  254. # [22:51] <Dashiva> belling the cat is solving a problem with an impossible solution?
  255. # [22:56] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.206)
  256. # [22:58] <Philip`> http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/Belling_the_Cat_p1.html - was the suggestion that some HTML WG members should volunteer to be eaten?
  257. # [22:59] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.100.206) (Quit: mjs)
  258. # [23:02] <Hixie> belling the cat is about making a difficult and dangerous problem (lack of interoperability and vendors who have their own prorities, in our case) less of a problem by performing a very difficult and dangerous task (speccing what the browser vendors should do, the danger being that they rebel and ignore us altogether)
  259. # [23:03] <Dashiva> In the process making yourself a mouse
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  270. # Session Close: Thu Jun 21 00:00:00 2007

The end :)