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- # Session Start: Wed Jun 20 00:00:00 2007
- # Session Ident: #html-wg
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- # [03:19] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/multimedia.html#VideoElement
- # [03:19] <karl> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html#video
- # [03:19] <heycam> Hixie, HTMLDocument.getElementsByClassName is declared to take a DOMString[], yet one of the examples in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/Overview.html#getelementsbyclassname passes it a plain string
- # [03:20] <Hixie> HTMLDocument.getElementsByClassName is a mess right now
- # [03:20] <Hixie> i've gotten feedback from the mozilla guys and will be making the spec better in due course
- # [03:20] <heycam> in what direction?
- # [03:21] <Hixie> towards whatever they did
- # [03:21] <Hixie> i forget what that is
- # [03:21] <heycam> aha :)
- # [03:21] <karl> SVG 1.2 Tiny
- # [03:21] <karl> <video xlink:href="noonoo.avi" audio-level=".8" type="video/x-msvideo"
- # [03:21] <karl> width="320" height="240" x="50" y="50" repeatCount="indefinite"/>
- # [03:22] <heycam> the syntax (and dom interface) is quite different for the svg and html video elements
- # [03:23] <karl> yes I can imagine
- # [03:23] <heycam> one point is that in svg, the video element is meant to fit in with the smil timing stuff, whereas in html that's not the aim
- # [03:23] <karl> I was trying to figure out what would be the "equivalent" example between the two.
- # [03:23] <karl> comparing markups
- # [03:24] <karl> <video src="noonoo.avi">blabla</video>
- # [03:25] <karl> hmm there is no markup example in HTML 5 spec.
- # [03:26] <heycam> there doesn't seem to be a way to do repeatCount="indefinite" in html's video element with the loopCount attribute
- # [03:26] <heycam> (you can only give it a positive integer
- # [03:26] <heycam> )
- # [03:27] <karl> I guess it is the loopstart and loopend attributes
- # [03:27] <heycam> i think those specify which range of the video to loop
- # [03:28] <karl> "The loopend content attribute gives an offset into the media resource at which playback is to jump back to the loopstart, when looping the clip. The default value is infinity."
- # [03:28] <heycam> oh
- # [03:29] <Hixie> the lack of infinite loopCount is intentional, it's to discourage sites from having infinitely looping video (since that's considered bad form)
- # [03:29] <heycam> i think that just gives the end point of the video to show when looping (equivalent to the dur attribute on svg's video or something)
- # [03:30] <heycam> Hixie, won't people just put 2**32-1 (or whatever) in the attribute to achieve the same thing?
- # [03:30] <karl> Hixie: what about someone using kiosk mode of a browser for a presentation booth.
- # [03:30] <karl> yes I guess people will give high numbers
- # [03:30] <karl> ;)
- # [03:30] <Hixie> heycam: oh it doesn't stop them (e.g. you can just use scripting), but it should at least give someone pause
- # [03:31] <Hixie> by not having an explicit way, people are less likely to actually do it without thinking about it
- # [03:31] <Hixie> if something is easy, they're more likely to do it without thinking about it
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- # [03:33] <karl> huh
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- # [03:37] <karl> oooh I had missed that. SVG in Safari.
- # [03:39] <karl> I wonder if there is a more recent status page - http://www.eseidel.com/svg-status.xml
- # [03:40] <karl> http://webkit.org/projects/svg/index.html
- # [03:41] <karl> http://webkit.org/projects/svg/status.xml
- # [03:41] <mjs> karl: you can ask in #webkit on freenode if you have specific questions
- # [03:41] <karl> this one doesn't seem updated either
- # [03:41] <mjs> I'm not sure if any of the web status is up to date
- # [03:42] <karl> ok. thanks mjs
- # [03:43] <karl> I should try to make an XHTML+SVG page with a video element into it to see how it is working
- # [03:44] <mjs> the SVG video element does not work in Safari 3 Beta
- # [03:44] <mjs> we're only targetting SVG 1.1, which does not have it, and even that isn't complete
- # [03:44] <mjs> but maybe we will add it when we add HTML5 <video>
- # [03:44] <karl> ah ok :)
- # [03:50] <Lionheart> gsnedders: Wow, that opening chapter is a heckuva grabber
- # [03:51] <Lionheart> gsnedders: Thank you for recommending why's poignant guide to ruby. I think I'll enjoy reading the rest of it
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- # [04:54] <karl> http://edutf.webstandards.org/survey.php
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- # [08:54] * karl is reading http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#semantics
- # [08:54] <karl> I wonder if Hixie wishes to receive text suggestions for occasional red boxes
- # [09:02] <Hixie> feel free to create issues for those like anything else, indeed
- # [09:03] <karl> ok. Thanks
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- # [09:17] <hsivonen> does http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ have the latest from CVS all the time?
- # [09:18] <karl> hsivonen: yes
- # [09:19] <hsivonen> karl: ok. was this announced on the mailing list?
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- # [09:24] <hsivonen> swapped the cleaner URI into wikipedia
- # [09:27] <karl> hsivonen: not yet
- # [09:28] <karl> but it is public as it is in the logs of IRC
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- # [09:30] * hsivonen smiles at the HTML5 not being "notable" in previous wikipedia Talk page discussions
- # [09:31] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML5
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- # [09:33] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2005/07/pubrules-checker?year=2007&uimode=checker&check=Run+checker&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fhtml5%2F&display=all
- # [09:33] <Hixie> why does that not work?
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- # [10:51] <anne> Hixie, buffer limit? :)
- # [10:51] <Hixie> that would suck
- # [10:51] <anne> In my experience the tool from Bert Bos always generates pubrules compliant stuff
- # [10:52] <anne> I always make a few changes such as changing "Editor's draft" to "W3C Working Draft" and changing a style sheet link
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- # [10:53] <Hixie> oh there are a LOT of ways that bert's script can make things non-pubrules-compliant, mostly things like my having broken links, not having the right boilerplate in the status section, etc
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- # [11:47] <anne> Philip`, made that change
- # [11:47] <anne> DanC, open to suggestions regarding "development model"
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- # [18:39] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - now with some line-drawing tests (and associated failures), and I've found that it takes me somewhere between 15 seconds and a couple of minutes to gather the 230 results for a single browser
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- # [19:18] <Philip`> (...I should probably note that the line tests don't actually agree with the spec, but that's because I think the spec is wrong)
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- # [20:49] <Lionheart> When I do a HTML5 test suite, I would use <blockcode> all over it, if HTML5 were to incorporate that proposal from XHTML2.
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- # [20:50] <Philip`> Use <xmp>
- # [20:51] <Philip`> (...except it's buggy in Opera, so that's not great :-( )
- # [20:51] <zcorpan> <pre><code>? <xmp> is not conforming html5
- # [20:51] <Lionheart> Wasn't that deprecated way back in HTML 2?
- # [20:51] <zcorpan> probably
- # [20:52] <Philip`> Sounds likely, but I like using <plaintext> too now that I know it exists :-)
- # [20:52] <zcorpan> oh yep, i use plaintext all the time :)
- # [20:52] <zcorpan> at least in tests
- # [20:53] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/sexp.html - I couldn't think of any reliable way to implement that without <plaintext>
- # [20:54] <zcorpan> what a use-case! :D
- # [20:55] <Lionheart> I hadn't heard of <plaintext>.
- # [20:56] <Philip`> It's sadly underappreciated nowadays
- # [20:56] <zcorpan> it was introduced in html 1.0 because it had great performance, aiui
- # [20:56] <zcorpan> if the rest of your document is plain text, why process it as html?
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- # [20:58] <zcorpan> (or "1.0", or pre-1.0, whichever you like)
- # [20:59] <Lionheart> Ugh. That's a pretty ugly kludge. And the special cases that <xmp>/<plaintext> type tags entail for DOM tree generating, XML parsing for XHTML, and so forth is... not elegant.
- # [21:01] <zcorpan> Lionheart: i'm confused. dom tree generating? xml parsing?
- # [21:04] <Lionheart> zcorpan: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#structure
- # [21:04] <Philip`> In XML, it ought to be parsed like normal HTML and just get styled in a similar way to pre/code/tt/etc
- # [21:05] <Philip`> Uh
- # [21:05] <Philip`> *parsed like normal XML
- # [21:05] <zcorpan> Lionheart: i know what dom and xml is, i just don't see why they would be affected by html parsing rules
- # [21:07] <Philip`> Ooh, I just realised that plaintext would be great in places like GeoCities where they append "</object></layer></div></span></style></noscript></table></script></applet>...lots of adverts..." onto your document, since there's nothing they could do to stop it
- # [21:07] <Lionheart> Well, the idea being that <plaintext> <p> some text </plaintext> in the DOM would be a PLAINTEXT object with one text node child for "<p> some text", instead of a PLAINTEXT node containing a P node containing a text node.
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- # [21:08] <Philip`> Lionheart: The plaintext node would contain the text "<p> some text </plaintext>" (and the rest of the document up until EOF)
- # [21:09] <Lionheart> Well, presumably "</plaintext>" gets some sort of special treatment when in the "plaintext-parsing" mode
- # [21:09] <zcorpan> Lionheart: no
- # [21:09] <zcorpan> that's the idea of plaintext. you parse the rest of the document as plain text
- # [21:10] <Lionheart> Oh, is that how <plaintext> works? I misunderstood it.
- # [21:10] <zcorpan> yes
- # [21:10] <zcorpan> however, the way you thought plaintext works is the way style and script works
- # [21:10] <Lionheart> So you can only use it once, at the end of the document. That's even worse.
- # [21:10] <zcorpan> and title and textarea (sort of)
- # [21:12] <zcorpan> well, in ie you can use it multiple times by using </plaintext> (without a preceding <plaintext>), but it doesn't make it any more useful :)
- # [21:12] <Philip`> Since the </body></html> is optional, you can still make almost-conforming documents with <plaintext> since all the missing closing tags get inferred nicely :-)
- # [21:13] <zcorpan> <plaintext> in and of itself is a parse error
- # [21:14] <zcorpan> or so i thought
- # [21:14] <Philip`> That's why it's just "almost-conforming" :-(
- # [21:14] <zcorpan> seems it isn't a parse error
- # [21:14] <zcorpan> but that doesn't make it conforming
- # [21:14] <Lionheart> So <plaintext> is a kind of markup abortion.
- # [21:14] <zcorpan> yeah
- # [21:15] <Philip`> More like markup suicide
- # [21:16] <zcorpan> birth of plain text? :)
- # [21:17] <Lionheart> Oh, and thanks krijnhoetmer.nl for preserving THAT metaphor for posterity... :-P
- # [21:19] <Lionheart> Anyhow, my valid HTML4 alternative would be <pre>. <blockcode> is like <pre> with <code> semantics.
- # [21:20] <zcorpan> html5 defines <pre><code>...</code></pre> to be a block of code
- # [21:23] <Lionheart> I use that now, and <pre><samp> ... </samp></pre> for generated output.
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- # [21:27] <Lionheart> Which brings up a negative of <blockcode>: if you have that, then you might as well have <blocksamp> and <blockkbd> too
- # [21:27] <Lionheart> gtg
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- # [21:29] <zcorpan> seems like ie stops appending characters to the string when getting innerHTML after it has dealt with the children of a plaintext element
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- # [22:46] <Hixie> heh, someone in the publish survey used a belling the cat analogy
- # [22:46] <Hixie> not too far from what we're doing!
- # [22:48] <hsivonen> is belling the cat synonymous to bikeshedding?
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- # [22:50] <hsivonen> it seems not
- # [22:51] <Dashiva> belling the cat is solving a problem with an impossible solution?
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- # [22:58] <Philip`> http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/Belling_the_Cat_p1.html - was the suggestion that some HTML WG members should volunteer to be eaten?
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- # [23:02] <Hixie> belling the cat is about making a difficult and dangerous problem (lack of interoperability and vendors who have their own prorities, in our case) less of a problem by performing a very difficult and dangerous task (speccing what the browser vendors should do, the danger being that they rebel and ignore us altogether)
- # [23:03] <Dashiva> In the process making yourself a mouse
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- # [23:31] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
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- # Session Close: Thu Jun 21 00:00:00 2007
The end :)