/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jun 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  27. # [03:44] <heycam> anne, can you mention the protocol/content handler stuff on the navigator object in your diffs document, that sounds novel and isn't covered by the dot points in section
  28. # [03:45] <heycam> 4
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  33. # [04:43] <karl> FYI: list server is down.
  34. # [04:43] <karl> it needs someone in the W3C room to reboot.
  35. # [05:45] <heycam> Hixie, in section 4.1 of html5, one of the green notes has a [DOM3VIEWS] reference, but that should probably be [DOM2VIEWS].
  36. # [05:47] <heycam> Hixie, in 4.1.4 there's a sentence "The transitive closure of all the browsing contexts that are directly reachable browsing contexts consists of a unit of related browsing contexts." which i think should be s/consists of/forms/ or something like that.
  37. # [05:47] <heycam> that, or switch the subject and object of the sentence around
  38. # [05:50] <heycam> the link in the note at the end of 4.2.3 would be better with the text "is unset" rather than "gets reset", to bring it in line with the wording from the section linked to
  39. # [05:57] <Lachy> heycam: it's better if you send a mail instead of just listing issues in here so it doesn't get lost. Also, refer to the sections by name instead of number, since the numbers can change frequently and aren't in the source file he edits
  40. # [05:57] <heycam> ah right, i remember ian mentioning that (about the section numbers)
  41. # [05:58] <heycam> above, the 4.1 = "Browsing Contexts", 4.1.4 = "Threads" and 4.2.3 = "APIs for creating and navigating browsing contexts by name"
  42. # [06:11] <karl> FYI: list server has been restarted.
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  49. # [08:28] <karl> http://www.mnot.net/blog/2007/06/20/proxy_caching
  50. # [08:29] <karl> A while back I wrote up the state of browser caching, after writing a quick-and-dirty XHR-based test page, with the idea that if people know how their content is handled by common implementations, they’d be able to trust caches a bit more.
  51. # [08:29] <karl> The other half that they need to know about, of course, is proxy caching; depending on who you listen to, somewhere between 20% and 50% of clients on the internet are behind some kind of proxy, and since they’re operated on behalf of a network provider, rather than the publisher or end user.
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  60. # [09:31] <heycam> Hixie, should i mail the stuff from http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070625#l-35 to the list per Lachy's request, or is having in irc with your nick to point it out sufficient?
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  64. # [09:40] <Hixie> heycam: e-mail is much preferred, if possible
  65. # [09:40] <heycam> ok
  66. # [09:40] <Hixie> thanks
  67. # [09:43] <heycam> sent
  68. # [09:55] <Hixie> cool
  69. # [09:56] * Hixie saves it to his "wording and technical details" folder
  70. # [09:56] <Hixie> i'm gonna have to go through that folder soon, it's starting to get rather full
  71. # [09:57] <hsivonen> are Philip Taylor (Webmaster) and Philip & Le Khanh to addresses of one person or two people?
  72. # [09:57] <zcorpan> two people, i think
  73. # [09:57] <hsivonen> that is, are there two or three Philip Taylors in total?
  74. # [09:57] <zcorpan> three
  75. # [09:58] <hsivonen> ok
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  77. # [10:00] <anne> nice, a subset of the public-html messages get marked as spam
  78. # [10:03] <zcorpan> hsivonen++ for http://www.w3.org/mid/6675DB96-29BD-4C7B-9607-16A4DFB31BD9@iki.fi
  79. # [10:09] * anne wonders what's up with the objection to html4-differences
  80. # [10:15] <anne> hmm, it's a bit unclear what people want fixed
  81. # [10:15] <anne> maybe I should request wiki pages too
  82. # [10:21] <hsivonen> hard choices: get impl. work done or reply to public-html messages
  83. # [10:23] <anne> that seems pretty trivial, to be honest
  84. # [10:24] <anne> I suppose Steven Pemberton will come up with specific examples on how HTML5 breaks from HTML4 instead of how HTML5 is compatible with the web
  85. # [10:33] <Lachy> I thought Philip Taylor (Webmaster) and Philip & Le Khanh were one person, since the things they say are so similar. I thought one might be a work email and the other is a personal email, but I don't know for sure
  86. # [10:43] <beowulf> I thought they were the same person
  87. # [10:44] <anne> maybe someone should ask...
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  90. # [11:00] <anne> seems a bit weird if they got two votes
  91. # [11:00] <anne> but I suppose that's possible for most people joining
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  94. # [11:04] <zcorpan> oh, i don't know if it's one or two. i just thought it was two for some reason
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  99. # [12:18] <hsivonen> is everyone else seeing public-html threads being fragmented or is it just a Mail.app problem?
  100. # [12:21] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/thread.html
  101. # [12:30] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I'm not seeing any fragmentation (messages seem to be getting threaded properly). But if it's something you just noticed today -- we had a problem with the list server earlier ... maybe that has had some side effects
  102. # [12:33] <anne> I do get e-mail slightly delayed now and then from the W3C
  103. # [12:34] <MikeSmith> ah, fragmented = messages arriving out of order?
  104. # [12:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: fragmented: threads not staying together. different people's follow-ups go under different thread groups in Mail.app
  105. # [12:41] <hsivonen> anne: hmm. Looks like either Mail.app is broken or the references are broken but the W3C archive system is better at recovering
  106. # [12:41] * hsivonen wonders if Mail.app implements jwz threading
  107. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - OK. I reckon it might be a Mail.app issue. I'm using mutt and not seeing any problems with it threading public-html messages.
  108. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> Lachy - pretty sure PT Webmaster and PT & Le Khanh are same person
  109. # [12:47] <MikeSmith> there are only two Philip Taylor instances in the HTML WG participants list
  110. # [12:52] <anne> I added "Open Issues": http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html
  111. # [12:52] <anne> I also made the change heycam suggested here earlier, fwiw
  112. # [12:52] <anne> s/suggested/requested/
  113. # [12:53] <anne> If you guys could look through it that would be much appreciated. It's only a few sentences
  114. # [13:03] <beowulf> looks good to me :)
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  116. # [13:05] <anne> how annoying, some guy is nitpicking on public-html
  117. # [13:05] <anne> though he directed his comments to DanC, so maybe I don't have to do anything :)
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  120. # [13:58] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/mid/6c97b8b10706250449j47800c78i4a347fab2f35da27@mail.gmail.com -- to Santa Claus
  121. # [13:58] <anne> hehe
  122. # [13:59] <anne> I replied offlist
  123. # [14:01] <tH> ooh, i have almost as much list mail as i do spam
  124. # [14:04] <edas> does someone make weekly summaries for the mailing list ? with subjects and most interristing mails ?
  125. # [14:05] <edas> it becomes really hard to read all mails, it takes to much time
  126. # [14:06] <anne> I'd be up for entertaining e-mails
  127. # [14:06] <anne> but I haven't seen much
  128. # [14:06] <anne> I'd suggest everyone reads http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0652.html
  129. # [14:06] <anne> especially the part that starts with "<rant>"
  130. # [14:16] <hsivonen> yeah. putting the work in working group :-)
  131. # [15:06] <Philip`> Hmm, I've always assumed the (Webmaster) and the & Le Khanh people are the same person
  132. # [15:07] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I only see one instance in the participants list
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  134. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> Philip` - dunno, I see two
  135. # [15:10] <MikeSmith> actually, right now I see a mysql error
  136. # [15:11] <Philip`> I see "..., Patrick Taylor, Philip TAYLOR, Sander Tekelenburg, ..." which is only one
  137. # [15:12] <MikeSmith> Philip` - you right
  138. # [15:13] <MikeSmith> only one Philip Taylor listed
  139. # [15:13] <Philip`> (But I should probably get around to joining at some point, now that it won't distract from exams)
  140. # [15:13] * zcorpan takes back his statement
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  146. # [15:43] * anne wonders if chaals is joking
  147. # [15:44] <zcorpan> might be possible with a new mime type!
  148. # [15:44] <zcorpan> oh wait
  149. # [15:45] <Philip`> <img src>Fallback</img> isn't much worse than <video ...>Fallback</video> in that authors can decide whether they want to use the new syntax and drop support for legacy UAs
  150. # [15:46] <anne> the thing is that <img src> actually works in older UAs
  151. # [15:46] <Philip`> (and if they do want to support old UAs they use the backward-compatible form of the syntax instead)
  152. # [15:46] <anne> and that all old content breaks because requiring UAs to do non-deterministic parsing for that is not an option
  153. # [15:47] <anne> or were you joking too?
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  155. # [15:48] <Philip`> anne: It just doesn't work quite as well in old UAs as the new syntax could work in new UAs; so there's a balance between making the language better (and the extent of betterness) versus the cost of adding features (complexity, time, difficultly in learning, etc)
  156. # [15:48] <Philip`> and it seems <video> is on one side of the balance, and <img>fallback</img> is probably on the other side
  157. # [15:48] <Philip`> The impossibility of adding new parsing rules for <img> is a separate issue :-)
  158. # [15:48] <anne> hmm
  159. # [15:49] <Philip`> (I don't expect anyone would like having to reparse the whole document since the first <img> once they encounter a </img>...)
  160. # [15:50] <anne> reparsing is not an option
  161. # [15:50] <Lachy> anne: which email do you think chaals was jokiing in?
  162. # [15:50] <anne> the one where he said that parsing could be changed
  163. # [15:51] <anne> I was thinking that though
  164. # [15:51] <anne> I was wondering whether it was the case
  165. # [15:51] <Lachy> where he said "Making img non-empty would require changing existing parsing. That is not impossible, of course... "
  166. # [15:51] <anne> yes
  167. # [15:51] <anne> all these people coming up with silly proposals like <pic>
  168. # [15:51] <Philip`> Is there any other way to handle "<html><img src=logo.gif>The whole content of the web site</html>" vs "<html><img src=logo.gif>The whole content of the web site as fallback text</img></html>"?
  169. # [15:51] <Lachy> I assume he either meant "That is impossible" or "That is not possible"
  170. # [15:51] <anne> especially if <object> already solves the "problem"
  171. # [15:52] * Philip` wonders if many people use </img> already
  172. # [15:53] <anne> Philip`, maybe it's not such a problem for <img> and </img> except if existing content uses </img> of course
  173. # [15:54] <Philip`> (Actually, a better example would be <img src=interactive_site.svg>The whole content of the web site</img>, with the problem of how do you know what to do before seeing the </img>)
  174. # [15:54] <Lachy> Philip`: it's possible that some people use </img> in what they think is XHTML, though it wouldn't be very common
  175. # [15:54] <Philip`> (because that's a not-entirely-silly use of fallback content)
  176. # [15:58] <anne> in any case, look-a-head is not liked either and not an option
  177. # [15:58] <anne> maybe in quirks mode for comment handling
  178. # [16:14] <anne> DanC, thanks for filtering
  179. # [16:15] <anne> DanC, I'll see what I can do in making the remaining changes
  180. # [16:18] <DanC> at first, I wondered why he addressed his message to me, but then I felt like defending some of the intro text.
  181. # [16:19] <anne> I don't like "HTML 5" but I guess I'll have to go for it...
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  183. # [16:34] <anne> I'm not sure how to remove the word 'can' from the document completely. Sometimes 'can' just makes sense...
  184. # [16:41] <Lachy> does the space really matter that much? I think both "HTML5" and "HTML 5" are equivalent
  185. # [16:42] <anne> apparently not and it's not worth my time
  186. # [16:46] <beowulf> didn't we already agree it should be called HTML5? or was it written "HTML 5"?
  187. # [16:46] * beowulf goes to check
  188. # [16:55] <anne> DanC, made changes, committed and replied to your e-mail
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  190. # [16:55] <anne> it's time for kayaking now
  191. # [16:56] <DanC> hasta
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  194. # [17:14] <zcorpan> the spec itself is called "HTML 5". the language/serialization is called "HTML5" in the spec
  195. # [17:26] <gsnedders> anne: is there any need to cite both WHATWG and W3C copies of HTML 5?
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  204. # [18:39] <Philip`> About placeholder links, I'm sure I remember <a name="whatever"></a> used to be the recommended way to support #whatever links, as the case for using <a> with no href
  205. # [18:40] <Philip`> but I guess that's irrelevant now you can link to an id on any element, and isn't what HTML5 means by 'placeholder link', so it's probably not interesting here
  206. # [18:43] <Lachy> HTML5 doesn't use the term "placeholder link".it says "a placeholder for where a link might otherwise have been placed, if it had been relevant." There's a subtle difference in meaning and I think it may be causing confusion on the list
  207. # [18:43] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  208. # [18:43] <Philip`> (<a name="whatever"></a> still isn't a placeholder for where a link might otherwise have been placed, though)
  209. # [18:44] * Lachy wishes more people would check the spec, instead of basing their arguments on informative prose in the changes from HTML4 note
  210. # [18:44] <Lachy> <a name=""> is just an anchor, though non-conforming in HTML5
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The end :)