/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-26 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jun 26 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  35. # [03:26] * karl wonders if Google has really started to recognize application/xhtml+xml
  36. # [03:26] <karl> http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/06/25/Making-the-Web-Safe-for-application-xhtml-xml
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  41. # [04:36] <karl> hhmmm doh
  42. # [04:36] <karl> I should have called it the "DUCK conference"
  43. # [04:36] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0793
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  45. # [04:52] <karl> HAWT = Hypertext Applications with Web Technologies
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  51. # [06:42] <karl> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/283
  52. # [06:43] <karl> [13:12] <Hixie> but that seems to be the distribution of years in the Last-Modified headers
  53. # [06:44] <Hixie> you skipped an important line, for anyone who didn't see my original statement in #whatwg, which is that that was a highly non-scientific and biased data sample
  54. # [06:44] <karl> fixed now
  55. # [06:46] <karl> too bad there is no reliable way to access to the creation date as well.
  56. # [06:46] <Hixie> no reliable way to access the modified date either
  57. # [06:46] <karl> yep
  58. # [06:47] * karl is seeing astrophysics and nuclear data, half life in his head.
  59. # [06:48] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life
  60. # [07:58] <karl> http://dannyayers.com/2007/06/25/grddl-progress
  61. # [07:58] <karl> Regarding the current proposal that HTML5 (or whatever it gets called) drops the profile attribute, that seems seriously wrong-minded, for the reasons given above. If anything the attribute should be allowed on some of the block tags - maybe <p> - so it'll be possible to state clearly that a given microformat convention (or GRDDL transformation) applies to the markup within the block. Google is not the only fruit.
  62. # [07:59] <karl> http://semwebdev.keithalexander.co.uk/blog/posts/html5-profile
  63. # [07:59] <karl> Tom Morris has written a post decrying the HTML5 working group's decision to drop the @profile attribute. I thoroughly agree.
  64. # [07:59] <karl> The point that @profile has remained relatively obscure all these years is worth noting, but (as Tom says) does not mean that it should be thoughtlessly dropped from future specifications. It’s not that @profile is useless, it’s that its use hasn’t been clearly defined and explained.
  65. # [08:00] <mjs> it's so rarely used that I think there's a burden of showing that it actually would be useful in the future
  66. # [08:01] <mjs> in fact, actual use of some kind can totally occur well before HTML5 is done, it could start today
  67. # [08:01] <karl> mjs: as always if it doesn't harm the browser space, and if it is used for processing by other user agents, like semantic bots.
  68. # [08:01] <karl> I see no troubles
  69. # [08:01] <karl> some people are already using
  70. # [08:01] <karl> it
  71. # [08:02] <karl> for GRDDL
  72. # [08:02] <mjs> if you have URLs for examples, you should totally post them somewhere
  73. # [08:02] * mjs doesn't much care about profile either way
  74. # [08:03] <karl> My take on this kind of issues are in fact there isn't an issue. We can keep it because it doesn't make any harm AND it is useful for some communities
  75. # [08:04] <mjs> I don't think it's a reasonable standard to include everything that doesn't have obvious harm
  76. # [08:04] <mjs> things should also have demonstrated usefulness
  77. # [08:04] <karl> it is not including
  78. # [08:04] <karl> it is keeping
  79. # [08:05] <karl> http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view
  80. # [08:05] <mjs> it's also been argued that it causes harm since it fragments the language
  81. # [08:05] <karl> in which ways?
  82. # [08:05] <mjs> are there useful bodies of documents out there that use GRDDL?
  83. # [08:06] <mjs> (since that URL has 2003 in it, I guess the technique has had at least 4 years to get some adoption)
  84. # [08:08] * karl has the feeling that after giving examples, the discussion will be drifting on the value of the word "useful" and its meaning.
  85. # [08:08] <karl> I personally don't find canvas useful. Some people do. I have a tendency to accept this. :)
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  89. # [08:40] <Hixie> the problem with profile="" is that it only really makes sense if its processing model applies to all tools, and it only makes sense to do that if we require all pages to use that attribute, and they don't.
  90. # [08:42] <Hixie> if the profile="" attribute is included only for some tools, i.e. if it has no authoring requirements and no UA requirements, then it's really just a spec-condoned proprietary extension, and if that's our use case we're better off with a generic extension mechanism
  91. # [08:42] <Hixie> such as <link rel="..." href="...">, or <meta name="..." content="...">, both of which we have defined well in HTML5
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  95. # [09:46] <anne> maybe we can define it to be equivalent to <link rel=profile>
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  97. # [09:57] <Hixie> if it's in the spec, the same problem is there for rel=profile as for profile=""
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  99. # [10:12] <mjs> html5 already has a bunch of rel values with no UA requirements, and a number of them have vague authoring requirements at best
  100. # [10:12] <mjs> (assuming that is what you meant by "same problem")
  101. # [10:19] <Hixie> agreed on the "no ua requirements", but at least they convey something specific. or at least tehy're meant to. which don't?
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  117. # [13:06] <anne> I totally missed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0808
  118. # [13:06] <anne> Fortunately dbaron pointed it out on his blog...
  119. # [13:18] <Lachy> yeah, that really was a well written post
  120. # [13:19] <beowulf> yup
  121. # [13:24] <Jero> "AT support", what does AT stand for?
  122. # [13:25] <zcorpan_> assistive technology
  123. # [13:25] <Jero> i see, thanks
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  128. # [14:18] <anne> It's annoying that discussions we've had on the WHATWG list years ago need to be re-done on public-html
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  130. # [14:18] <anne> Such as explaining to people why <image> is parsed the way it is...
  131. # [14:22] <beowulf> it would be a nice project to have the knowledge from all those discussions in some form of encylopedia
  132. # [14:22] <anne> are you volunteering?
  133. # [14:23] <beowulf> possibly
  134. # [14:23] <beowulf> i don't know enough about the subjects, but i'd learn doing it i suppose
  135. # [14:24] <anne> if you go through the WHATWG archive month by month, yeah, you'd learn a lot :)
  136. # [14:25] <beowulf> it'd sort of come under the tutorials topic, though in this case i'd know who the tutee is
  137. # [14:26] <beowulf> (my problem with what's gone before in tutorial discussions doesn't seem to identify who we're tutoring)
  138. # [14:26] <beowulf> s/doesn't/is that they don't/
  139. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> anne - ... which is why it's important to have the rationale documented
  140. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> can't go back in time and do it
  141. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> but it would at least seem prudent for commit messages for changes checked in going forward to try to include at least some minimal statement of the rationale for the change
  142. # [15:30] <MikeSmith> otherwise, when we get to last-call comments -- when anybody at all who wants to can stroll in and start posting comments second-guessing everything's that preceded -- there is likely to be a lot more pain
  143. # [15:32] <anne> I think there's such a commit message actually
  144. # [15:32] <anne> have you checked?
  145. # [15:32] <anne> I'll state it again though, there's only so much time to do things
  146. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> anne - I read the commit/checkin messages. I don't see statements in most of them of the rationale for the changes. Not saying that all (or even most) of them need it necessarily. But some definitely should.
  147. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> and I guess the time can be spent now, or it can be spent later (in responding to last-call comments asking what the rationale for a particular part of the spec is)
  148. # [15:41] <anne> I don't know, I'm not going to do it
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  154. # [16:05] <anne> 'yet 0,2% seems an astonishingly low usage to be considered "significant".'
  155. # [16:06] <anne> I think I'm no longer going to respond to his e-mails
  156. # [16:06] <anne> seems like a big waste of time
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  160. # [16:41] <Lachy> anne: I could have told you not to bother responding to him a long time ago. He like to use the equivalent of the "Pokemon test" in his arguments a lot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:POKEMON
  161. # [16:43] <Lachy> basically, arguing that if X is good enough, then Y is also. (He did the same for other features. e.g. listing code, kbd, samp and var and arguing that if they're included, so should whatever he wants)
  162. # [16:45] <Lachy> you could try responding with the chewbacca defence, it'd be as effective as anything else ;-)
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  164. # [16:59] <DanC> MikeSmith, I agree about the utility of an organized decision rationale. The wiki seems to be the mechanism of choice so far. Have you used it much?
  165. # [16:59] <DanC> also... I'm curious as to how comments on mobileOK Basic Tests 1.0 are tracked. any pointers?
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  168. # [17:12] <DanC> ok, I think I'm gonna put the question on html4-differences v1.25
  169. # [17:13] <DanC> is mjs around? I wonder what response options to offer. maybe yes, abstain, no, formally object
  170. # [17:14] <anne> what's the practical difference between not voting and "abstain"?
  171. # [17:14] <DanC> none
  172. # [17:14] <anne> k
  173. # [17:14] <anne> those options seem fine with me btw
  174. # [17:15] <DanC> well, it contributes to the evidence that the WG is making an informed decision. maybe just a little.
  175. # [17:15] <DanC> "working draft headed for note" seems best for status
  176. # [17:18] <anne> yeah...
  177. # [17:30] <DanC> ok, take a look: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/trdiff/
  178. # [17:33] <DanC> the one objection I can see is "we should do design principles instead". I'm OK to do design principles *also*... I wonder if it's worth some discussion first, though
  179. # [17:33] * DanC changes the start date to tomorrow to avoid dirty data
  180. # [17:33] <DanC> just while I'm mulling it over
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  183. # [17:36] <DanC> anne, are you interested/willing to work with mjs to format the design principles as a /TR/? (sandro has some tools to make a /TR/ out of wiki topics automatically; I wonder if it's worth a try)
  184. # [17:36] <anne> there's no draft for design principles yet it seems
  185. # [17:36] <anne> ah
  186. # [17:36] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples is a draft of sorts
  187. # [17:36] <anne> I meant TR/ draft but then you just pressed enter :)
  188. # [17:37] * DanC would like to chat with dbaron and mjs for just a bit
  189. # [17:37] <anne> I can make html5/design-principles/ I suppose
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  191. # [17:37] <anne> seems only some minor HTML editing is needed
  192. # [17:38] <DanC> checking the history of the wiki topic... good: no anonymous edits. all those names should go in the acks section
  193. # [17:39] <anne> makes sense
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  195. # [17:40] <DanC> I could (a) put the question on diffs now or (b) try to get design principles in similar shape real quick and put the questions on both of them simultaneously. any strong opinions? anne?
  196. # [17:40] * anne makes it "html-design-principles"
  197. # [17:41] <anne> no opinion
  198. # [17:41] <DanC> how close is chaals? you guys aren't in the same building or anything, are you?
  199. # [17:41] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@209.176.7.3) (Ping timeout)
  200. # [17:43] <anne> his laptop is next to mine more or less
  201. # [17:43] <anne> but he's hanging out somewhere else
  202. # [17:43] <anne> prolly meeting or something
  203. # [17:43] <DanC> once you make a copy of the wiki topic in the dev.w3.org CVS repostitory, does that become the "truth", or can we continue to welcome edits to the wiki topic and port them over?
  204. # [17:44] <anne> porting is annoying, but I wouldn't call it "truth" :D
  205. # [17:44] <DanC> yeah; poor choice of words...
  206. # [17:45] * DanC is in the habit of using "truth" when talking about multiple version-control repositories and sync issues
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  208. # [17:48] <DanC> hmm... "France Telecom has joined the HTML Working Group"
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  211. # [17:54] <DanC> I don't see as much reference to the design principles as I'd like. I seem to recall argument that echoes some of the principles without referring to them by name/URI
  212. # [17:56] <DanC> e.g. Hixie writes "Several features have been designed and then
  213. # [17:56] <DanC> removed from HTML5 after flaws in the fallback behaviour were pointed out.
  214. # [17:56] <DanC> We have in fact been ruthless about ensuring this."
  215. # [17:56] <DanC> that seems pretty close to the "Degrade Gracefully" principle, but doesn't invoke it by name
  216. # [17:57] <anne> One thing that was rather elegant in the past was <select editable>
  217. # [17:57] <anne> that's replaced by an explicit relationship with <input> and <datalist>
  218. # [17:57] <anne> because <select editable> did not have the proper fallback
  219. # [17:57] <DanC> the short version of "Degrade Gracefully" is hard for me to grok: "New versions of HTML should allow documents using them to work in user agents that don't yet support it."
  220. # [17:58] * DanC noodles...
  221. # [17:59] <anne> lets first port the thing to HTML before making improvements :)
  222. # [17:59] <DanC> "HTML documents that include markup for new features should work reasonably well in old [extant?] user agents"
  223. # [18:00] <DanC> by port you mean to CVS, right? that changes the social arrangement from "it's a wiki -- fix it yourself" to "mail suggested changes and an editor will consider them"
  224. # [18:00] <DanC> I sorta think I should get mjs in the loop for making such a change.
  225. # [18:01] <anne> in theory the wiki can still be fixed...
  226. # [18:01] <Philip`> They should work in new not-yet-released UAs that haven't bothered implementing the new features, as well as just old UAs
  227. # [18:02] <DanC> well, I understood "lets first port the thing to HTML before making improvements :)" as push-back against continued tweaking of the wiki topic
  228. # [18:03] <DanC> I started making a survey with separate questions for each design principle, but it didn't go easily.
  229. # [18:05] <DanC> oops; "Visible Metadata" is among the design principles there. it's disputed, but it's there. I didn't realize that when I suggested closing the 'fear of "invisible metadata"' thread.
  230. # [18:07] <DanC> HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples in its present state doesn't really appeal to me. I have a hard time proposing it to the WG when I don't really like it that much.
  231. # [18:11] <anne> i got an HTML variant of it
  232. # [18:12] <anne> haven't added acknowledgements and stuff
  233. # [18:13] * Parts: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.41.174)
  234. # [18:16] <anne> should I do something with it?
  235. # [18:18] <DanC> hmm
  236. # [18:18] <DanC> mail mjs and copy public-html , a la "what do you think?"
  237. # [18:19] <DanC> that's perhaps a lot to ask...
  238. # [18:20] <anne> what kind of response are you looking for?
  239. # [18:20] <DanC> anything from "yeah, please run with that; I'm snowed under but somebody should keep it moving"
  240. # [18:21] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Ping timeout)
  241. # [18:21] <DanC> to "hang on a bit; I'm snowed under just now, but I'm not sure we should move from the wiki just now"
  242. # [18:22] <DanC> others might chime in a la "I don't agree with #4; it should be moved to the disputed section or changed _thusly_ or deleted"
  243. # [18:23] <DanC> or mjs might say "great; ok, I committed a few changes too. feel free to mail more change requests and I'll consider them"
  244. # [18:23] <anne> so I chould commit the doc to cvs?
  245. # [18:23] <DanC> er... I thought you did already
  246. # [18:24] <anne> I wasn't sure if it was appropriate
  247. # [18:24] <DanC> I'm totally on the fence; I'm as much following your lead as advising you.
  248. # [18:24] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@84.216.41.174)
  249. # [18:27] <anne> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
  250. # [18:33] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  251. # [18:35] <anne> done
  252. # [18:35] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.147.20) (Quit: Quitting!)
  253. # [18:51] * Joins: hober (ted@69.45.6.105)
  254. # [18:56] <Lachy> anne: here's an abstract for you to add to that draft:
  255. # [18:56] <Lachy> This document describes the set of guiding principles used by the HTML Working Group for the development of HTML5. The principles are designed to offer guidance for the design of HTML, in the areas of compatibility, utility and interoperability.
  256. # [18:59] <Lachy> we're going to need to resolve those disputed principles before it's finished, though I support publishing it as a WD
  257. # [19:02] * Joins: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
  258. # [19:07] <anne> e-mail that to public-html or www-archive maybe?
  259. # [19:07] <Lachy> yeah, will do
  260. # [19:07] <anne> I'm not going to work on it until DanC has an idea on how to proceed
  261. # [19:10] <DanC> ok, I just put the question on html4-differences
  262. # [19:10] <DanC> thanks for moving the ball forward on design principles; I wanted some visible progress on that before putting this question.
  263. # [19:16] <anne> sweet
  264. # [19:22] <anne> In http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/trdiff/results the non-responders section only lists Members and W3C Invited Experts
  265. # [19:22] <anne> not normal Invited Experts
  266. # [19:24] * Joins: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108)
  267. # [19:28] <gsnedders> anne: why do you cite both WHATWG and W3C hosted copies of HTML 5?
  268. # [19:52] <DanC> yeah, that looks like a WBS bug, anne. I'm not too worried about it. feel free to report it to sysreq
  269. # [19:57] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  270. # [20:00] <tH> DanC: the consensus link on the questionnaire is broken
  271. # [20:02] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  272. # [20:02] <DanC> oops...
  273. # [20:04] <DanC> fixed
  274. # [20:10] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  275. # [20:56] * Joins: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22)
  276. # [21:18] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  277. # [21:29] <DanC> agenda + adding nofollow to (public) lists archives
  278. # [21:29] <DanC> heh... wrong channel ;-)
  279. # [21:39] <zcorpan_> oh, perhaps i shouldn't vote on surveys
  280. # [21:43] <zcorpan_> anne: do you know anything about that? chaals wanted to discuss that last week but i can't remember if it was resolved or not
  281. # [21:43] <zcorpan_> (me being summer intern at opera that is)
  282. # [21:44] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@209.176.7.3) (Quit: polin8)
  283. # [21:45] <Dashiva> zcorpan_: Still waiting for that too
  284. # [21:46] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@209.176.7.3)
  285. # [21:46] * zcorpan_ removes his answer from the survey
  286. # [21:50] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Connection reset by peer)
  287. # [22:02] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@209.176.7.3) (Quit: polin8)
  288. # [22:04] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
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  296. # [22:43] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Quit: Leaving.)
  297. # [22:59] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  298. # [23:03] <anne> gsnedders, why not?
  299. # [23:03] <gsnedders> anne: seems like pointless duplication
  300. # [23:03] <gsnedders> anne: someone mentioned it on the mailing list as well
  301. # [23:05] <anne> It's not pointless, it indicates it's being driven by two groups
  302. # [23:05] <anne> zcorpan_, no
  303. # [23:07] * anne wonders if mjs has a dev.w3.org account
  304. # [23:10] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@209.176.7.3) (Quit: polin8)
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  309. # [23:15] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@203.158.59.119) (Ping timeout)
  310. # [23:15] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  311. # [23:45] * Parts: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22)
  312. # [23:49] * Quits: Jero (Jero@213.46.207.230) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502])
  313. # [23:50] * Joins: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.213.130)
  314. # [23:54] <Hixie> /me sends another e-mail to the list to try and guide the style="" discussion to somewhere productive
  315. # [23:56] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.140.190.99) (Ping timeout)
  316. # [23:58] * DanC hopes/wishes folks will start to discuss test cases for such things
  317. # [23:59] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  318. # Session Close: Wed Jun 27 00:00:00 2007

The end :)