/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-06-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jun 29 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:01] <hsivonen> the IBM distro is broken
  4. # [00:01] <hsivonen> sigh
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  20. # [02:02] * MikeSmith smiles at "Hint: it's not the air force."
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  28. # [04:48] <karl> http://www.w3.org/Talks/9704WWW6-HTML/
  29. # [04:48] <karl> Leading the Evolution of HTML
  30. # [04:48] <karl> April 1997
  31. # [04:48] <mjs> Cougar!
  32. # [04:48] <mjs> *rawr*
  33. # [04:48] <karl> yep it was the nickname of the spec
  34. # [04:49] <karl> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Cougar/
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  36. # [04:54] * karl feels like mjs wants to call it Leopard :p
  37. # [04:56] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1997Apr/0032.html
  38. # [04:57] <karl> """My overall feeling is that this is even more a "codification of
  39. # [04:57] <karl> current practice" than HTML 3.2 is. Frames, scripts, it's all in
  40. # [04:57] <karl> there. There are a few little changes, but mostly it seems taken
  41. # [04:57] <karl> directly from how Netscape/IE implement things. The only really
  42. # [04:57] <karl> noteworthy change I saw was that NOFRAMES is finally given a purpose;
  43. # [04:57] <karl> it can now be used anywhere in BODY to hide material for frames-capable
  44. # [04:57] <karl> browsers. Nice one."""
  45. # [04:57] <karl> The life is a never ending repeating story
  46. # [04:58] <karl> except that people have short memories or are too young to remember
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  54. # [09:19] <karl> http://loud.anotherquietday.com/post/4459238
  55. # [09:20] <karl> DOM Storage: XSS 2.0
  56. # [09:20] <karl> A few short notes on the security implications of the new HTML5 browser features in Firefox (and probably Opera).
  57. # [09:20] <karl> The short version is that it enables an offline, cross-domain web worm.
  58. # [09:21] <mjs> that seems somewhat imaginary
  59. # [09:22] <karl> mjs: you mean it is not possible at all, or there is a chance?
  60. # [09:22] <mjs> many steps in his supposed exploit are not possible
  61. # [09:23] <karl> ok
  62. # [09:23] <mjs> "scans your history for known vulnerable sites and spreads itself to them" "resubmit its new version to those it previously infected"
  63. # [09:24] <mjs> this shows misunderstandings of how XSS worms propagate
  64. # [09:24] <Lachy> what is that supposed to mean?
  65. # [09:24] <Lachy> is he saying it can upload itself to other websites?
  66. # [09:24] <mjs> you can't use the client-side storage as a vector to attack new sites per se
  67. # [09:25] <mjs> you could use it as a way for multiple compromised sites to exchange info
  68. # [09:25] <mjs> but you don't need a browser as a vector for that
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  71. # [09:31] <sbuluf> OpenBSD founder Theo de Raadt has now provided more details and analysis on outstanding, fixed, and non-fixable Core 2 bugs. Some choice quotes: 'Some of these bugs... will *ASSUREDLY* be exploitable from userland code...
  72. # [09:31] <sbuluf> http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/06/28/1124256.shtml
  73. # [09:31] <sbuluf> offtopic, but perhaps helpful for some
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  86. # [10:44] <heycam> Hixie, s/preceed/preced/g
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  89. # [11:06] <Hixie> heycam: ?
  90. # [11:06] <heycam> in the HTML 5 document
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  93. # [11:07] <heycam> preceeding -> preceding, preceeded -> preceded
  94. # [11:07] * heycam heads out
  95. # [12:28] <anne> two formal objections now
  96. # [12:30] <mjs> to what?
  97. # [12:30] <mjs> publishing differences document?
  98. # [12:31] <anne> yeah
  99. # [12:31] <anne> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/trdiff/results
  100. # [12:33] <beowulf> the document is called "HTML 5 differences from HTML 4" not "Why HTML 5 is different from HTML 4"
  101. # [12:34] <mjs> Gregory Rosmaita just repeated his FO to adopting HTML5 basically
  102. # [12:34] <beowulf> he did
  103. # [12:36] <zcorpan_> seems people want the document to contain more rationales
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  105. # [12:37] <mjs> it's impossible to give a rationale for the current status of an undecided issue
  106. # [12:38] <zcorpan_> why not? "it hasn't been investigated yet"
  107. # [12:38] <beowulf> i just see it as a fancy diff document
  108. # [12:39] <anne> it's not something special
  109. # [12:39] <anne> it's not normative
  110. # [12:39] <anne> it was already widely published on blogs etc.
  111. # [12:39] <beowulf> if you start adding rationales it'll become too labour intensive imo
  112. # [12:39] <zcorpan_> though it says "... and provides some of the rationale for the changes"
  113. # [12:39] <anne> sure
  114. # [12:40] <anne> _some_
  115. # [12:40] <beowulf> oh then i object, remove that line :)
  116. # [12:40] <zcorpan_> yeah. true
  117. # [12:40] <anne> mostly for the new features and the dropping of presentational markup
  118. # [12:40] <anne> and shorter doctype and things like that
  119. # [12:41] <zcorpan_> we could publish a rationale draft after 3 months :)
  120. # [12:43] * zcorpan_ wonders why no-one complained about s/XHTML1/XHTML 1/
  121. # [12:43] <anne> someone did, DanC pointed out that it was clear enough
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  123. # [12:56] <hsivonen> hmm. Microsoft hasn't responded the the trdiff questionnaire
  124. # [12:56] <hsivonen> neither has IBM
  125. # [12:58] <hsivonen> oh. we have another FO
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  129. # [13:43] <Lachy> the FO on the trdiff survey doesn't make much sense. She seems to assume that the draft needs to be complete and have no open issues before publication of a FPWD
  130. # [13:44] <Lachy> in particular, rationale for every dropped/added/changed element and attribute is unrealistic, since the spec isn't finished, and not all have been decided yet
  131. # [13:44] <anne> which would mean it would be released in 2020
  132. # [13:44] <Lachy> indeed
  133. # [13:45] <Lachy> given the pace at which this group works, I'd push that back to 2030
  134. # [13:54] * Lachy updates my response http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/trdiff/results
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  148. # [17:11] <anne> heh, people are actually recommending @summary='This is a layout table'
  149. # [17:12] <billmason> Reading that makes my head hurt.
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  163. # [18:28] <zcorpan_> i wonder if steve faulkner would withdraw his objection if html4-differences changed "dropped" to "not included" (or "not (yet) included")
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  165. # [18:59] <beowulf> one more FO
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  167. # [19:22] <zcorpan_> i expect there will be ~ 3 FOs for every survey where you can FO, regardless of what the survey is about
  168. # [19:37] <zcorpan_> http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=53884#53884
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  170. # [19:56] <DanC> the ~ 3 FOs regardless does seem somewhat likely. I just sent some thoughts on the FOs, in hopes of directing that energy in more useful directions
  171. # [19:57] * gavin_ wonders why DanC's message in the "un-subscribe while remaining a member" thread got marked as junk
  172. # [19:57] <DanC> marked... that's a local issue, yes?
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  175. # [19:59] <gavin_> DanC: yes, I just found it odd
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  182. # [20:11] <Lachy> calling them Omitted Attributes, rather than Dropped Attributes, would probably be better, since dropped gives the impression that they won't be included, whereas omitted makes it more clear that it represents the current state of the spec
  183. # [20:12] <Lachy> similarly for Dropped Elements
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  187. # [20:21] <gavin_> I like Lachy's idea
  188. # [21:15] <hsivonen> nice chicken and egg problem. if we don't publish a diff document, group participants who can't be bothered to read the whole spec draft themselves complain that it is hard to review it
  189. # [21:16] <hsivonen> if we try to publish an introductionary diff overview documenting the state of the current draft, people object that the spec should be done first
  190. # [21:17] <gavin_> heh
  191. # [21:17] <Lachy> I just posted a mail explaining why adding detailed rationale would be a bad idea. I hope the people who have objected for that reason understand and remove their objections
  192. # [21:17] <Lachy> and why it's also not possible
  193. # [21:18] <Hixie> i love this diff document
  194. # [21:18] <Hixie> it's taking all the flak away from the spec :-P
  195. # [21:32] <gsnedders> how do browsers deal with LF separated HTTP headers?
  196. # [21:32] <Lachy> gsnedders: test it and let us know :-)
  197. # [21:33] <gsnedders> I know they manage to parse it, I just don't know what the details of it are. Do they just allow any line break where the spec says CRLF? I dunno…
  198. # [21:34] <Lachy> I suspect they would treat CR and LF the same as CRLF, though I don't know for sure
  199. # [21:34] <gsnedders> I'd look at Gecko's source, but I haven't a clue where it'd be
  200. # [21:35] <gsnedders> Lachy: my suspicion, too
  201. # [21:35] * Lachy is wondering how it could be tested
  202. # [21:35] <gsnedders> It's hard.
  203. # [21:35] <Lachy> both how to set up a server to send LF or CR instead of CRLF, and how to make observations in browsers that give reliable results
  204. # [21:39] <Philip`> Is http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/netwerk/protocol/http/src/nsHttpResponseHead.cpp#131 relevant? (That appears to only accept "\r\n")
  205. # [21:41] <Lachy> I wonder if there are any servers that don't send CRLF. I'm sure all the major ones would get it write, but perhaps some custom written server would get it wrong
  206. # [21:41] <Lachy> s/write/right/
  207. # [21:51] <gsnedders> http://www.thinkgeek.com/thinkgeek.rss has LF, and claims to be Apache 1.3.28
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  209. # [21:52] <gsnedders> Philip`: it must be dealt with before there
  210. # [21:54] <Lachy> gsnedders: what did you use to inspect the headers of that site?
  211. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: I just downloaded the raw HTTP content through cURL and used a text editor
  212. # [21:54] <Lachy> ok
  213. # [21:55] <Lachy> I have cURL installed. What parameters should I use (if any)?
  214. # [21:56] <hasather> Lachy: congrats on the job
  215. # [21:56] <Lachy> heh, Fiddler reported the error in the headers to me
  216. # [21:57] <gsnedders> Lachy: -i
  217. # [22:04] <gsnedders> moz seems to use LF after CRLF has failed in certain ways
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  219. # [22:07] * Philip` just tried some tests with HTTP header newlines
  220. # [22:08] <Philip`> IE7 and Opera 9.2 seem to treat \r and \n and \r\n identically
  221. # [22:08] <gsnedders> same with Saf
  222. # [22:08] <Philip`> FF trunk seems to split only on \r\n and on \n
  223. # [22:09] <gsnedders> so you can't mix them, but you can in IE and Opera?
  224. # [22:09] <Philip`> and FF trunk treats \n\r as if it's a line-split and then the next header's name has "\r" on the front
  225. # [22:10] <gsnedders> HTTP5. kthxbai.
  226. # [22:10] <Philip`> or maybe that's not true, but at least it doesn't pick up the next header with its correct name
  227. # [22:11] <Philip`> (I can't seem to access the \r-prefixed header via any spelling I can think of...)
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  229. # [22:13] <Philip`> Oh, right, it totally deletes the header after the \n\r
  230. # [22:13] <Philip`> (FF2 is the same as FF trunk)
  231. # [22:13] * gsnedders sighs
  232. # [22:13] <gsnedders> HTTP parsing is too complex.
  233. # [22:15] <Philip`> Also, in XHR getAllResponseHeaders, IE7 and Opera return it with all lines separated \r\n, and FF return separated by \n
  234. # [22:16] <Philip`> *returns
  235. # [22:21] <DanC> and now for something completely different... "mTLD Top Level Domain Limited has joined the HTML Working Group"
  236. # [22:22] * DanC wonders when we'll hit 500
  237. # [22:22] * gsnedders wonders who'll be #666
  238. # [22:22] <DanC> 485 group participants
  239. # [22:23] <Philip`> Judging by my test, Safari does the same as FF (splitting on \r\n and \n, not splitting on \r)
  240. # [22:25] <Philip`> though Safari does create an actual header named "\rwhatever" (when you send it "...\n\rwhatever: ...") which you can read back via that name
  241. # [22:26] <Philip`> ("Safari" = 3.0.2 on Windows)
  242. # [22:28] <Philip`> (My test = http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/reflect.py + http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/headers.html - download into one place, run the .py, visit http://localhost:1079/)
  243. # [22:30] <DanC> cool, Philip` . Thanks for the details
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  245. # [22:30] * DanC wishes for more time to follow up on testing
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  247. # [22:34] <mjs> are those the dot mobi crowd?
  248. # [22:36] <DanC> yes
  249. # [22:36] <DanC> at least... I think so
  250. # [22:41] <hsivonen> their business is based on a vision that is contrary to the vision of the position paper behind HTML5...
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  254. # [22:59] <DanC> which position paper?
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  256. # [23:01] <zcorpan> DanC: http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
  257. # [23:02] <DanC> ah
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  264. # [23:34] * Parts: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22)
  265. # [23:35] * Quits: Sander (svl@71.57.109.108) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  266. # [23:42] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.223.28) (Connection timed out)
  267. # [23:57] * Quits: Jero (Jero@213.46.207.230) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.4/2007051502])
  268. # Session Close: Sat Jun 30 00:00:00 2007

The end :)