/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-07-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Jul 06 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <zcorpan> hi mjs
  4. # [00:00] <mjs> hey zcorpan
  5. # [00:00] * mjs doesn't like the no-publishing plan
  6. # [00:00] <mjs> if I wanted to be passive-aggressive I would register a Formal Objection against not publishing
  7. # [00:01] <mjs> but that seems immature
  8. # [00:01] * zcorpan wonders why publishing needs discussion in the first place
  9. # [00:01] <zcorpan> or surveys
  10. # [00:01] <mjs> in general advancing something along the publication track is a group decision per W3C policy
  11. # [00:01] <mjs> however, I don't think that registering a Formal Objection is in order, since Formal Objections are supposed to be about technical matters
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  31. # [02:04] <karl> I guess the day off is really over. 88 messages on public-html in the last 10 hours :)
  32. # [02:05] <karl> hmmm I wonder if we could calculate the speed of each mailing-list, messages by hour or day
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  38. # [03:24] <Lachy> DanC: what's the point of setting up a telcon before you've organised the agenda?
  39. # [03:25] <Lachy> anyway, the 12th is no good for me, since I'll be on holiday next week
  40. # [03:39] <karl> Lachy: there might be someone else from Opera able to participate given the number of Opera people on the group
  41. # [03:40] <Lachy> so? I'm not officially an Opera employee yet, I'm still an invited expert
  42. # [03:43] <mjs> 12th is no good for me or pretty much anyone from Apple
  43. # [03:46] <karl> Lachy: when will you be hired?
  44. # [03:47] <Lachy> next month, probably
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  46. # [03:48] <karl> congratulations.
  47. # [03:48] <karl> mjs: there is a special event in Apple for the Webkit Team?
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  49. # [03:56] <mjs> karl: yes, release party for Safari 3 beta (somewhat belated)
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  57. # [04:36] <karl> oh a new person of Mitsue-Links joined the group. Cool.
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  59. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> karl - which new person?
  60. # [04:42] <MikeSmith> I think I know who it is
  61. # [04:43] <MikeSmith> he is one of the developers there with insight into accessibility issues
  62. # [04:44] <karl> MikeSmith: Masataka Yakura
  63. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> ?
  64. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> I thought Yakura was already a member of the WG
  65. # [04:44] <MikeSmith> or maybe not ... just that he has been on #html-wg
  66. # [04:45] <MikeSmith> anyway, you met him yourself at CSSNite
  67. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> he reports directly to Kidachi-san
  68. # [04:46] <MikeSmith> moved here to Tokyo recently from Ishikawa-ken
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  106. # [09:55] <hsivonen> what's http://www.w3.org/mid/8320a9390707052211t4424f36bkff541baffbc5d1eb@mail.gmail.com concretely about. to me the source looks actually more readable than usual
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  109. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I don't know but please don't respond to it on-list
  110. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Jul/0012.html
  111. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> oops
  112. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> ah yeah, un-oops
  113. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> (that's what I meant to paste in)
  114. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> I think maybe we should make a form letter along those lines, to send out for cases like this
  115. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> I mean for cases of things that there is clearly no point of having a discussion about on the list
  116. # [10:17] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: ok. I won't.
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  118. # [10:21] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, jgraham - interesting discussion with sruby yesterday on #whatwg ... would be great to eventually have a C version of html5lib
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  126. # [11:03] <hsivonen> yay. Finished the detailed review of the one-sentence section.
  127. # [11:05] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - have there been any written proposals for serializing of SVG in text/html or MathML in text/html ?
  128. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> btw, my .02 cents is that those two should be discussed separately and not conflated
  129. # [11:06] <MikeSmith> SVG and MathML I mean
  130. # [11:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: IIRC Hixie or rbs had a (IMO bad for forward compat) proposal way back when
  131. # [11:07] <MikeSmith> OK
  132. # [11:07] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I can't remember a concrete processing model for SVG
  133. # [11:08] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I think the elements "math" and "svg" should open new scopes in the tree builder and make the tree builder set a flag in the tokenizer that turned off case folding and changed the handling of />
  134. # [11:09] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: in particular, I think hard-coding a list of MathML or SVG element names in the parser is bad, bad idea
  135. # [11:09] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - hey, sounds like you're volunteering to write up a proposal for it
  136. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I won't disagree with you there
  137. # [11:10] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: perhaps when I have enough running code to prototype it with
  138. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> Has anybody seriously suggested hardcoding the names in the parser?
  139. # [11:11] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: yes. IIRC, Hixie
  140. # [11:11] <hsivonen> unless my memory is totally failing
  141. # [11:11] <zcorpan> hsivonen: he did
  142. # [11:11] * zcorpan also proposed to have "math" and "svg" start new scopes
  143. # [11:15] <MikeSmith> if Hixie proposed it that way, I would think he must have had a good reason for doing so, after considering the alternatives
  144. # [11:16] <MikeSmith> but it does seem like a far less than ideal way of doing it if it can be avoided
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  148. # [13:11] <MikeSmith> myakura - you there?
  149. # [13:12] <myakura> yep, just got back home.
  150. # [13:13] <MikeSmith> so you joined the HTML WG ... I had assumed you were already a member -- I've not looked at the participants list for a while
  151. # [13:13] <myakura> no, i joined as an invited expert. just changed my affiliation today :)
  152. # [13:17] <MikeSmith> I see. Hey, please remind what the name is of your Mitsue-Links colleague who we had lunch with the other day and whose work focuses on accessibility
  153. # [13:18] <myakura> he was Kiyochika Nakamura
  154. # [13:19] <myakura> not was :(
  155. # [13:22] <mjs> hardcoding only the root names makes more sense to me than hardcoding all the element names
  156. # [13:22] <mjs> I dunno about changing handling of />
  157. # [13:22] <mjs> but I guess that would make it easier to paste in content
  158. # [13:22] <mjs> I imagine other XML languages would ask for a magic container name too though
  159. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> mjs - if there are others that would, I'd think it would be a long way off before they'd have enough market acceptance to justify consideration
  160. # [13:32] <MikeSmith> In fact I wonder if MathML even meets that market acceptance criterion
  161. # [13:33] <mjs> I am not sure it would
  162. # [13:33] <mjs> I don't know how you would define it though
  163. # [13:33] <mjs> I guess you could compare to other non-HTML content types (including non-markup types)
  164. # [13:33] <mjs> and frequency of appearance on the public web
  165. # [13:34] <mjs> there's a chicken and egg problem there though
  166. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> perhaps good native support in at least two browsers
  167. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> which would qualify SVG
  168. # [13:34] <MikeSmith> but not MathML
  169. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> which is why anyway I think they should be considered separately
  170. # [13:35] <mjs> others might argue for an extensible namespace mechanism
  171. # [13:35] <mjs> then there is less of a chicken-and-egg problem
  172. # [13:35] <MikeSmith> yeah
  173. # [13:35] <mjs> browsers are less likely to support additional languages if they can't be embedded in text/html
  174. # [13:35] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: chances are that if we solve the SVG parsing issue, mathml gets solved as a side effect (but not vice versa)
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  176. # [13:35] <mjs> perhaps this is a good thing though
  177. # [13:36] <mjs> hsivonen: why not vice versa?
  178. # [13:36] <hsivonen> mjs: camel case
  179. # [13:36] <hsivonen> mjs: xlink:href
  180. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - that's fine, extra gravy to have MathML support but not a high priority
  181. # [13:36] <MikeSmith> mjs - indeed perhaps not a good thing
  182. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> mjs - I mean I agree with you
  183. # [13:37] <MikeSmith> (omitting the "not")
  184. # [13:40] <mjs> hsivonen: yucky
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  192. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> re: the latest flurry from Dmitry: perhaps what dude really ought to do is create his own custom authoring vocabulary that perfectly suits his needs and then just use CSS or some transformation language like XSLT to convert compliant HTML
  193. # [15:07] <MikeSmith> s/to convert/to convert it to/
  194. # [15:16] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it is called html60
  195. # [15:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - maybe it should be called html666
  196. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - btw, about terminology around HTML5 conformance, the fact that the term is used for two different things -- document conformance, and implementation conformance -- I wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to help distinguish between the two more explicitly
  197. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> for example, use "document compliance" and "compliance checking"
  198. # [15:29] <MikeSmith> instead of conformance checking
  199. # [15:31] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: dunno. on the surface it seems to me that if we want "conformance" and "compliance" to mean different things, prior usage suggests that "conformance" goes with documents and "compliance" with UAs
  200. # [15:31] <MikeSmith> that'd be fine too
  201. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> just a long as it's used consistently in the spec
  202. # [15:32] <hsivonen> I'm not particularly fond of trying to make roughly synonymous words mean different things in the scope of a spec, though
  203. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> anyway, it'd be a sorta major terminology change, so not sure if the confusability is a majore enough concern or if it's just me being pedantic
  204. # [15:33] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, true
  205. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> I guess it would amount to specialized (perhaps arcane) re-definitions of terms
  206. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> sometimes that's necessary in specs, though
  207. # [15:34] <mjs> it would be so much work to to explain all the reasons Dmitry's proposals wouldn't work
  208. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> in my experience at least
  209. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> mjs - which is why it ain't worth taking time to try to explain to him :)
  210. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> a lot of his recent wisdom seems to be driven by an apparent sorta obsessive-compulsive need to tidy everything up
  211. # [15:38] <mjs> but he also has a strange idea of what counts as tidy
  212. # [15:38] <Philip`> HTML isn't really the right place to go if you want tidy
  213. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> well, it's tidying plus injecting some science fiction into it for added fun
  214. # [15:39] <hsivonen> I think we need a general boiler plate answer why tidying stuff is not cost-effective with a vast network of legacy
  215. # [15:40] <MikeSmith> yeah, that would be good to have
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  225. # [16:28] <MikeSmith> public-html would be a great test case for bayesian filtering
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  230. # [17:15] <Philip`> Maybe someone should point out that the HTML5-diffs document goes through the standard(?) W3C processing tools, which deletes lots of the unrequired tags and quotes that were in the source document
  231. # [17:17] <DanC> there's nothing standard about those tools, AFAIK
  232. # [17:18] <Philip`> Oh, maybe 'standard' is the wrong idea
  233. # [17:18] <Philip`> I think they're used by some other groups too, though?
  234. # [17:18] <DanC> when I edit W3C tech reports, I don't do any batch processing. the source _is_ the report.
  235. # [17:19] <DanC> my understanding is that Bert wrote them for the CSS WG ~10 years ago; Hixie uses them for several specs, and Anne picked them up
  236. # [17:21] <hsivonen> in any case Anne and Hixie have better things to do than tweaking the source indent style
  237. # [17:25] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  238. # [17:48] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Would the filtering be able to get rid of html60? ;)
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  240. # [17:53] <MikeSmith> Dashiva - bayesian filtering can doing anything -- it can make a shrimp cocktail for you if you want
  241. # [17:54] <Philip`> Can it write an HTML parser for me?
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  243. # [18:01] <MikeSmith> Philip` - even better: It can write an HTML parser generator
  244. # [18:05] * Philip` wonders what a good name for such a thing would be
  245. # [18:06] <Philip`> Maybe it could be a metaparser, because anything with "meta" in it sounds good
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  247. # [18:10] <MikeSmith> Philip` - like metastasize?
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  250. # [18:16] * Philip` decides that he totally doesn't trust himself when generating proofs of tokeniser properties, and ends up adding a load of 'assert' calls into his code just to make sure
  251. # [18:45] <Lachy> DanC: I really can't believe you're encouraging discussion of a pointless issue like source code formatting, when it's simply nothing more than personal preference.
  252. # [18:46] <Lachy> oh well, I suppose the more the group focusses on non-issues like that this week, the less I will have to read when I get back from holiday next week.
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  266. # [20:02] <DanC> the guy didn't say "please format the source code differently to meet my preferences." He said that it helps accessibility. If he can back that claim, I will have learned something. If not, we can establish that for the purposes of the HTML WG, source formatting doesn't matter. Either way is progress.
  267. # [20:03] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  268. # [20:14] <hsivonen> I think throwing around "accessibility" as an unsubstantiated excuse for arbitrary things is bad for real accessibility
  269. # [20:15] <hsivonen> I'm entirely unconvinced that tweaking the source formatting in this case would be a real accessibility issue
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  277. # [22:14] <Dashiva> Doesn't the argument translate into the HTML serialization itself (in its least XMLish forms) being inaccessible?
  278. # [22:15] * Quits: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22) (Ping timeout)
  279. # [22:15] <hsivonen> Dashiva: you are onto the secret conspiracy!
  280. # [22:15] <hsivonen> I wonder if Algol 68 semicolon omission could be used to justify tag omission...
  281. # [22:17] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12)
  282. # [22:18] <hsivonen> anne: Your HTML source is inaccessible!
  283. # [22:19] <zcorpan> teh doctype tag isn't future proff
  284. # [22:19] <gavin_> he's using a different definition of "accessible" than some of the people arguing with him are, I think
  285. # [22:19] <anne> which HTML source?
  286. # [22:19] <Dashiva> All of it
  287. # [22:19] <hsivonen> anne: the diff doc
  288. # [22:20] <anne> I don't control the output of Bert's script
  289. # [22:20] <Philip`> Could you pass it through an extra script?
  290. # [22:20] <anne> are we debating that now on public-html?
  291. # [22:20] * anne hasn't read e-mail
  292. # [22:20] <Philip`> (like Tidy, I guess)
  293. # [22:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: shouldn't a person with low vision or attention problems run the extra script him/herself?
  294. # [22:21] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0406.html
  295. # [22:21] <hsivonen> anne: public-html is fun, isn't it
  296. # [22:22] <anne> oh, whatever
  297. # [22:22] <anne> i for one, like the output of the script...
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  299. # [22:23] <hsivonen> I mean if I had a problem with reading code with the GNU brace style, shouldn't I be the one who runs a One True Brace Style reindenter?
  300. # [22:23] * Sander thinks public-html has horrible accessibility, as the volume of messages is too large for slow readers to keep up. (That falls under accessibility, right?) :)
  301. # [22:23] <Dashiva> hsivonen: No, the GNU brace style is a crime against humanity.
  302. # [22:23] <hsivonen> Dashiva: ok. bad example. :-)
  303. # [22:25] <hsivonen> Sander: I wonder how the users of aural email clients keep up
  304. # [22:27] <Philip`> hsivonen: That assumes the person with low vision or attention problems is vaguely technically competent, which appears to be disagree with the assumption that they will get highly confused by reading valid HTML4 code
  305. # [22:28] <gsnedders> I have no issue with how the document is formatted, though I'd do it differently myself
  306. # [22:29] <hsivonen> Philip`: does it disagree with them reading markup source in the first place?
  307. # [22:31] <anne> I guess nobody noticed the html5 spec is formatted in exactly the same way?
  308. # [22:31] <anne> and XMLHttpRequest, and access-control and selectors-api and xbl and the list goes on
  309. # [22:31] <anne> (all CSS specs)
  310. # [22:31] <Philip`> I would expect the number of people reading the source code of a W3C document in order to learn HTML while having some disability and being harmed by it not looking enough like XML, is somewhat negligible
  311. # [22:32] <gsnedders> anne: but this is a W3C HTML WG Note!
  312. # [22:32] <gsnedders> (yes, that is the best reason I can come up with)
  313. # [22:32] <Philip`> anne: Maybe they're all looking at the multipage version, which does have quotes and closing tags everywhere? :-)
  314. # [22:32] <hsivonen> gsnedders: an Editor's Draft of one
  315. # [22:32] <anne> Philip`, yeah... about that... :p
  316. # [22:33] <anne> the interesting thing is that they all complain but nobody brings up actual problems or solutions
  317. # [22:33] <anne> they're not very productive and just wasting everyone's time
  318. # [22:34] <hsivonen> well, at least I don't need to read thedailywtf to get a daily fix anymore...
  319. # [22:34] <Dashiva> Maybe we should apply for a column on the site
  320. # [22:35] <MikeSmith> Dashiva - new mailing list ... public-html-wtf
  321. # [22:35] <anne> all that nonsense hides the useful commit logs from hixie!
  322. # [22:36] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Web Task Force, perhaps?
  323. # [22:36] <Philip`> Trick people into thinking it's actually worth posting there, and then everyone else can ignore them
  324. # [22:39] <Dashiva> Philip`: You mean http://whattf.org/ :)
  325. # [22:40] <hsivonen> Dashiva: no, whattf is useful (hopefully :-)
  326. # [22:42] * anne tells people to talk to Bert Bos
  327. # [22:44] <Philip`> Is http://wiki.whatwg.org/ dead?
  328. # [22:47] <MikeSmith> Philip` - public-html-elite ... "Dear [recipient], Your ideas posted recently to the HTML working group have been deemed to be of such an advanced quality of insight that we believe they merit discussion on a special mailing list, away from all the boring mundane scary technical mumbo-jumbo for which public-html is intended. Welcome and congratulations."
  329. # [22:47] <anne> :p
  330. # [22:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: not dead. edited yesterday
  331. # [22:51] <Philip`> I just get "Connection refused" messages :-(
  332. # [22:52] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh yeah, it is that kind of dead
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  339. # Session Close: Sat Jul 07 00:00:00 2007

The end :)