/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-07-07 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jul 07 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  12. # [00:51] <hsivonen> wow. Bert Bos was actually CCed on the accessibility of source thread
  13. # [00:55] <mjs> maybe it would be a good time to point out that micromanaging the source formatting of the document at this point is insane
  14. # [00:58] <Hixie> i wish anyone luck if they try to micromanage my source formatting
  15. # [00:59] <hsivonen> http://papayawhip.bikeshed.org/
  16. # [00:59] <hsivonen> nn
  17. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> the phrase "going off into weeds" doesn't do justice to some of these marginal public-html ... it strains the language
  18. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> marginal public-html discussion
  19. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> I -public-html/+www-archive Cc'ed a response to the latest Philip and Chaka Khan doctype-needed-for-parsing message -
  20. # [01:14] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/20070706230716.GA11591@mikesmith
  21. # [01:15] <MikeSmith> feel like a pedantic schoolmarm
  22. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> but at this point it really seems like people shouldn't need to keep having the now-blazingly-obvious pointed out to them again and again
  23. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> e.g., that browsers are not applications of SGML and never have been
  24. # [01:18] <MikeSmith> maybe we need to have a FAQ the participants are asked to read before joining
  25. # [01:20] <Hixie> what baffles me is why the public-html group, which has about half the number of people as the whatwg group, has so much more bikeshedding going on
  26. # [01:20] <MikeSmith> and a checkbox on the sign-up form for things like, "I agree not to attempt to debate on public-html whether the HTML language should only have an XML serialization, since I really that freaking charter says it will also have a 'classic HTML' serialization and I understand I must find a way to live with that."
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  29. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I think the WHATWG is more of a self-selected group of people with a fairly high level of insight into the technical issues and of implementation realities, and there are clearly understood and accepted boundaries for discussion there (even if they are not explicitly stated there)
  30. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> whereas public-html is, well, sort of a free-for-all
  31. # [01:23] <MikeSmith> I don't think it needs to remain that way, though
  32. # [01:24] <Hixie> i don't understand why, though
  33. # [01:24] <Hixie> i always thought that whatwg was just a superset of public-html
  34. # [01:24] <Hixie> but this is clearly not the case
  35. # [01:24] <MikeSmith> no, definitely it is not
  36. # [01:25] <Hixie> so why aren't the whatwg people on public-html, and vice versa?
  37. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> I suggested here yesterday that maybe we should consider saying, For the time being, we are limiting discussion on public-html to specific parts of the spec that describe what conformant implementation behavior should be with respect to those features that are already present in existing content on the Web.
  38. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> Because unless I'm mistaken I think that is what the understood priority of the group is right now.
  39. # [01:28] <Hixie> i don't think the group has an understood priority
  40. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> if that's the case, then I guess we need to fix that problem first
  41. # [01:29] <Hixie> i'm going to be on vacation the rest of this month, but once i get back my priorities are going to be the new repetition system, the cache pinning system, and responding to feedback on two parts of the spec (which parts TBD)
  42. # [01:29] <Hixie> (two parts = about 500 e-mails)
  43. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> yipes
  44. # [01:29] <MikeSmith> The entire rest of the month you'll be gone?
  45. # [01:30] <Hixie> (i did about 500 e-mails' worth in the last two months)
  46. # [01:30] <Hixie> yeah, three weeks of vacation
  47. # [01:30] <Hixie> i hope y'all don't break the web while i'm away :-P
  48. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> No, we will just turn over the spec-editing tasks for the next three weeks to a randomly selected member of the group.
  49. # [01:31] <MikeSmith> That ought to generate some excitement at least.
  50. # [01:32] <Hixie> well that's fine, since my checkin tool would just blow that away when i come to next checkin :-P
  51. # [01:33] <heycam> what about hyatt?
  52. # [01:33] <Philip`> We could start with six randomly-selected provisional editors, and give each of them a day to do what they like to the spec, and once they've all had a go then we vote one of them off, and repeat until only one remains, and then Hixie gets back and they can have a head-to-head contest
  53. # [01:34] <Hixie> heycam: he has a set of tools that interact with mine
  54. # [01:34] <heycam> which means that you need to be here for him to be able to work on the spec?
  55. # [01:35] <Hixie> right now, yes, but there's no inherent reason that should be the case
  56. # [01:35] <heycam> yeah. it would be good to decouple that, for times when you will indeed be away.
  57. # [01:36] <Hixie> well, in emergencies he can just checkin straight to CVS
  58. # [01:36] <MikeSmith> Hixie - one thing I been meaning to suggest to you is that, to the degree possible, you try if you can to include in your checkin descriptions some note about the rationale for the particular change you're checking in. Because I think otherwise, that lack of documented rationale for some of the changes is going to cause some problems -- particularly during last call (though yeah, I know that is a long way off yet)
  59. # [01:37] <Hixie> heycam: in practice hyatt and I are more comfortable with my reviewing his changes right now given that I have a better handle on what side-effects a change could have
  60. # [01:37] <heycam> Hixie, yeah i thought that might be the case
  61. # [01:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, i've been trying to do that
  62. # [01:37] <heycam> that you've got more of the spec in your head than he does
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  64. # [01:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie - cool
  65. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> though I understand it being a PITA to take time to write a prose description of the rationale for what might be just a one-line change to the spec
  66. # [01:39] <MikeSmith> for example
  67. # [01:42] <Hixie> MikeSmith: are there any specific changes that you're curious as to the rationale for?
  68. # [01:46] <MikeSmith> Hixie - no, nothing that comes to mind right now ... but I have a short memory and it's been a while since you've checked in any new changes
  69. # [01:46] <Hixie> k
  70. # [01:47] <Hixie> yeah, been working on research this week
  71. # [01:47] <MikeSmith> yep, heard that from hsivonen
  72. # [01:47] <Hixie> http://html5.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/data/
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  82. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> Hixie - so the that data you collected, the intent is for it help parser implementor choose reasonable limits to set in their implementations?
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  84. # [03:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah
  85. # [03:27] <Hixie> MikeSmith: and help with optimisations
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The end :)