/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-07-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Jul 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  31. # [10:05] * zcorpan will start posting detailed review comments to public-html
  32. # [10:17] <hsivonen> zcorpan: which sections are you going to do?
  33. # [10:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  34. # [10:28] <zcorpan> i'll start with the DOM
  35. # [10:29] <zcorpan> today is item() vs namedItem() using [] syntax on htmlcollections
  36. # [10:30] <zcorpan> i wonder how the editors will find the detailed reviews
  37. # [10:30] * Joins: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123)
  38. # [10:30] <zcorpan> Hixie said that anything that isn't in the wiki will be ignored
  39. # [10:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I put "detailed review" in the Subject
  40. # [10:31] <zcorpan> yep.
  41. # [10:31] * zcorpan will too
  42. # [10:31] <hsivonen> zcorpan: so when I'm done, I can search for my review emails and collect the URIs
  43. # [10:31] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  44. # [10:32] <zcorpan> and send to Hixie?
  45. # [10:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't know yet
  46. # [10:32] <zcorpan> ok
  47. # [10:45] <MikeSmith> ah, karl, you trotted out the allegory of the cave ... you should get a special award for that one: first to mention the allegory that can be applied to just about anything ...
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  51. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - last part of bikeshed entry in Wikipedia is especially apt
  52. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> [[
  53. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> People stay quiet on technical issues, but when an issue like indentation formatting or naming conventions arises, everyone has an opinion.
  54. # [10:55] <MikeSmith> ]]
  55. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> hmm, a little too apt ...
  56. # [10:56] <MikeSmith> did somebody from public-html add that, I wonder ...
  57. # [10:57] <hsivonen> "Even with the discussion about the parser, we weren't talking about the parse."
  58. # [11:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the wikipedia entry has not been edited in the last couple of days, at least
  59. # [11:03] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, I looked at the history ... looks like whenever it was added, it wasn't recently
  60. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> kind of comforting to know the others have the same problem ... share our pain
  61. # [11:23] <jgraham> "you took a thread about something else and turned it into a discussion about the parser. It wasn't about the parser until you arrived. The confusion was introduced when you made it about the parser. It was about HTML5 UAs (bigger than the parser). " - am I the only one who has lost track of what the thread was supposedly about?
  62. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> heh
  63. # [11:24] <jgraham> I would send an email asking Robert to summarize the issues in the thread were supposed to be but I'm not sure it's a valuble use of anyone's time.
  64. # [11:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: when I brought up the parser, it was pretty clear that the person I was replying to wasn't familiar with the exact relationship of the content models and the parsing algorithm
  65. # [11:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: I agree there has been much of that
  66. # [11:25] <hsivonen> jgraham: my main mistake was that I replied to Rob when he posed a question that was addressed to me
  67. # [11:25] * MikeSmith sees the statement, "We are here because we bring certain expertise about this." hmm...
  68. # [11:25] <jgraham> I'm still trying to work out how someone constructed a testcase with a <table> that "refused to render" in firefox
  69. # [11:26] <jgraham> did they post the testcase somewhere?
  70. # [11:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: dunno. the one I saw rendered *something* in firefox
  71. # [11:29] <MikeSmith> does anybody know what rob does? web designer? web developer?
  72. # [11:30] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: he seems to be doing a doctoral thesis about rethinking Marxism
  73. # [11:31] <MikeSmith> interesting
  74. # [11:32] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: oops. I my recollection was wrong. He says he's on the board of a jounal called "rethinking marxism" the title of the doctoral thesis is unknown
  75. # [11:33] <hsivonen> http://www.robburns.com/
  76. # [11:35] <MikeSmith> wow
  77. # [11:36] <MikeSmith> source of that page has some nice surprises
  78. # [11:36] * MikeSmith is just wondering where this guy is coming from ... but now just further confused
  79. # [11:37] <hsivonen> wow indeed
  80. # [11:38] <MikeSmith> I think that jgraham said something a while back about wishing people would find another hobby
  81. # [11:40] <hsivonen> note to self: never always use "consider" instead of "understand" to avoid offending people
  82. # [11:41] <hsivonen> s/never//
  83. # [11:41] * hsivonen goes write some software
  84. # [11:43] * jgraham writes an email against his better judgement
  85. # [11:43] <jgraham> Right, time to do something useful, I guess
  86. # [11:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan++
  87. # [12:01] <hsivonen> jgraham: isn't it fun when people don't read your previous messages to the same thread?
  88. # [12:19] <zcorpan> hsivonen: :)
  89. # [12:20] <hsivonen> the AAA is going to be very long when written with minimal stack searching...
  90. # [12:28] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  91. # [12:40] <mjs> zcorpan: see my mail to the list, but, short version, in ECMAScript property names are always strings
  92. # [12:40] <mjs> zcorpan: knowing that will probably make it easier to test what is going on in IE
  93. # [12:40] <mjs> it's probably just using a lenient string-to-number conversion to decide if a collection property name is an index, as opposed to the strict Array rule
  94. # [12:47] <zcorpan> mjs: yep. makes sense
  95. # [12:48] <zcorpan> i didn't consider testing with commas
  96. # [12:48] <zcorpan> i also made a mistake with Infinity
  97. # [12:48] <zcorpan> i used 0/0 which is NaN, should have used 1/0
  98. # [12:49] <Dashiva> Why not just use infinity?
  99. # [12:49] <Dashiva> Number.POSITIVE_INFINITY
  100. # [12:50] <hsivonen> jgraham: do I understand correctly that furthest block a descendant of formatting elment in AAA?
  101. # [12:50] <hsivonen> Hixie's reversal of top and bottom and the name "furthest block" make me doubt things
  102. # [12:50] <hsivonen> a bit down it says "If the furthest block has a parent node, then remove the furthest block from its parent node."
  103. # [12:51] <hsivonen> how could furthes block not have a parent?
  104. # [12:51] <hsivonen> ooh. there's a jump back to step 1
  105. # [12:51] <hsivonen> does that make it possible to have unparented nodes on the stack?
  106. # [12:51] * hsivonen reads on
  107. # [12:52] <zcorpan> Dashiva: 1/0 is shorter (but evidently error prone)
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  109. # [12:57] <hsivonen> is array [] in ECMAScript real array access by number offset of does it do the string dance, too?
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  111. # [12:58] <mjs> the [] operator is just property lookup
  112. # [12:59] <mjs> implementations can optimize of course
  113. # [12:59] <mjs> to avoid converting number to string and back again
  114. # [12:59] <hsivonen> mjs: wow. I learned something new
  115. # [12:59] <hsivonen> this is why I rarely comment in the JS/API threads
  116. # [13:04] <heycam> hsivonen, yeah, that comparison back to the string value of the int i'd overlooked
  117. # [13:04] <heycam> seems to be what the built-in Array [[Get]] method does tho
  118. # [13:04] * heycam -> dinner
  119. # [13:05] <zcorpan> hmm, seems i have to loop through all characters...
  120. # [13:08] <hsivonen> mjs: Re: serving the same bytes as different Content-Types. It sucks to tell Sam Ruby or Jacques Distler that it isn't conforming. However, now that we enabled dual conformance, just about everyone else will shoot themselves in the foot if they try to do their own stunts.
  121. # [13:09] <mjs> hsivonen: oops, my message got cut off
  122. # [13:10] <mjs> I meant to add "but it's not a good idea unless you are enough of an expert to understand the ramifications in detail"
  123. # [13:35] <hsivonen> has someone look at if a stack node gets checked for it not being formatting or phrasing more than once on average?
  124. # [13:35] <hsivonen> s/look/looked/
  125. # [13:35] <hsivonen> i.e. does it make sense to precompute that piece of info?
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  129. # [13:54] <hsivonen> what is furthest block furthest away from?
  130. # [13:54] <hsivonen> from the root?
  131. # [13:59] <hsivonen> out of curiosity, if the cloning part of the AAA is as rare as Hixie's research shows, how did hyatt come up with the algorithm? do the adverse conditions appear on top sites?
  132. # [14:02] <Philip`> It would be quite useful if http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer.xml/ actually worked
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  135. # [14:16] * Philip` needs to work out how to stop making C++ code with boolean expressions that are nine hundred characters long
  136. # [14:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: comparisons against a list of tag names?
  137. # [14:29] <Philip`> I'm finding an expression for the "anything else" cases in the tokeniser, by doing !(first_condition || second_condition || ...), except those individual conditions are like "character == '-' && (content_model == RCDATA || content_model == CDATA) && ...' and it desperately needs some simplification at the end
  138. # [14:32] <Philip`> (It should be easy if I could remember how to convert stuff into disjunctive normal form...)
  139. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there a reason not to produce } else { or default:
  140. # [14:37] <Philip`> I want to let it do inner loops inside that default state, so it's like "case DataState: if (a && b) {} else if (a && !b) {} else if (c) {} else { do { } while (!(a || c) }"
  141. # [14:38] <Philip`> mainly for the cases where you expect to consume lots of characters at once, until finding a specific one that makes you stop and think again
  142. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Philip`: do you have a manually-programmed character token coalescing mechanism?
  143. # [14:40] <Philip`> When it emits a character token, it checks if the last emitted token was a character one, and if so then it sticks the new one onto the end of it
  144. # [14:41] <Philip`> (which isn't a very good way of doing)
  145. # [14:41] <Philip`> (...it)
  146. # [14:41] <hsivonen> is what you are optimizing avoidance of the content model flag checking for each char in the data state?
  147. # [14:42] <hsivonen> I probably am not understanding what you are doing
  148. # [14:43] <Philip`> I'm probably not understanding it either :-)
  149. # [14:43] <hsivonen> afk
  150. # [14:44] <Philip`> I think I'm mainly trying to see how possible it is to automatically transform the code into the kind of format that someone would write by hand
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  152. # [15:05] <zcorpan> what does ToUnit32() do?
  153. # [15:09] <zcorpan> er, ToUint32()
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  155. # [15:10] <Philip`> That's defined in the ECMAScript spec
  156. # [15:10] <zcorpan> yep... found it
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  170. # [16:27] <zcorpan> oook... i think i'm done with my high-level review of section 2 actually
  171. # [16:28] <zcorpan> now i need to continue writing real tests
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  174. # [16:54] <zcorpan> got the live dom viewer (xml version) working btw
  175. # [16:54] <zcorpan> but not in ie...
  176. # [17:04] <Philip`> Hmm, looks like my tokeniser spends as much time reading from stdin as it spends actually tokenising
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  178. # [17:04] * DanC does some wiki gardening...
  179. # [17:05] * Philip` guesses he should find a better way of measuring performance
  180. # [17:07] * DanC wishes for a bot that announces wiki changes here
  181. # [17:10] <DanC> argh... editing in wikis is frustratingly slow. or at least the ESW wiki
  182. # [17:11] <Philip`> Hmm, I see no obvious speed difference with goto vs switch, and my data is too noisy to detect non-obvious differences
  183. # [17:14] <Philip`> I could just give up and say the tokeniser is fast enough already for what I want - it can handle 100MB of HTML in 14 seconds
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  185. # [17:16] <Philip`> and it would more useful to make it properly buffered instead of fiddling around with pointless attempts at optimisation
  186. # [17:44] <DanC> yum yum... detailed spec review based on test cases. (http://www.w3.org/mid/op.tu6yxvfcidj3kv@hp-a0a83fcd39d2.palace.opera.no HTMLCollection... )
  187. # [17:46] <zcorpan> for a change? :)
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  199. # [18:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: cloning isn't that rare
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  210. # [21:56] <gsnedders> the steps for finding one or two numbers of a ratio in a string are ever so slightly confusing
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  216. # [22:13] <jgraham> According to the UK Quiz show "University Challenge" XML is the successor to HTML... I guess we should disband the working group.
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  218. # [22:27] <gsnedders> XHTML2 ftw!
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  220. # [22:28] <gsnedders> I mean, 5 > 2, so XHTML2 _must_ be better!
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  230. # Session Close: Tue Jul 10 00:00:00 2007

The end :)