/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-07-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Jul 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: briansuda (briansuda@85.220.95.76) (Quit: briansuda)
  4. # [00:00] <anne> I suppose it's the acknowledgments list that mentions IE explicitly
  5. # [00:00] <anne> and Safari
  6. # [00:01] <hsivonen> ah
  7. # [00:02] <anne> from #xhtml: " good way to get out of CR -- implement parts of XHTML2 in any browser with assistance of script"
  8. # [00:02] <hsivonen> aargh.
  9. # [00:03] <anne> they seem to be more concerned with getting the spec done than with giving developers something useful
  10. # [00:04] * Parts: hasather (hasather@81.235.209.174)
  11. # [00:04] <Philip`> Isn't it useful to implement parts of XHTML2 with scripts, like how WF2 and <canvas> can be done?
  12. # [00:04] <anne> sure, but not to exit CR
  13. # [00:04] <anne> Philip`, did you check in your 10000 tests?
  14. # [00:05] <Philip`> I didn't, since they're mostly pointlessly repetitive and they take ages to run
  15. # [00:05] <anne> oh ok
  16. # [00:06] <Philip`> (assuming you mean the tokeniser tests)
  17. # [00:06] <anne> yeah
  18. # [00:06] <anne> quite nice that you couldn't find much bugs btw :)
  19. # [00:06] <hsivonen> I wonder if native XHTML2 impls become impossible to deploy without Breaking The Web once a handful of sites starts using kewl XHTML2 plus scripts that turn it into HTML
  20. # [00:08] * anne isn't sure what to make of the thread on <code> and <pre>
  21. # [00:08] * anne thought it was pretty clear that <pre> indicates that the whitespace it encloses is significant
  22. # [00:08] <Philip`> Why would they turn it into HTML rather than into XHTML1?
  23. # [00:09] <Philip`> The latter should work in at least two browsers, and then it'd do stuff like proper XML parsing, and there wouldn't be so many ways in which a native XHTML2 implementation would severely break sites
  24. # [00:11] <hsivonen> Philip`: the problem exists even if transforming to XHTML1
  25. # [00:12] <hsivonen> hmm. view source and English reading comprehension: the instant semantic UA
  26. # [00:14] <Philip`> That's not very good for accessibility - people browsing the web on mobile phones don't (probably?) have a view source button
  27. # [00:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: the source becomes more accessible if you "quote your attributes" and "close your tags"
  28. # [00:19] * Philip` should update his HTML-stats code to see how many people quote attributes and which tags they do/don't close
  29. # [00:20] <Philip`> (I used to collect that data, but then I stopped because it was boring and I really didn't care, so actually maybe I should bother doing it again)
  30. # [00:21] <hsivonen> Philip`: wouldn't you need to instrument a tree builder for the latter? or do you mean />?
  31. # [00:22] <Philip`> I just mean counting e.g. the number of "li" start tags and the number of "li" end tags, and subtracting
  32. # [00:23] <hsivonen> ok
  33. # [00:23] <Philip`> which would be a rough approximation of how many people use optional end tags
  34. # [00:26] <Philip`> (I always used to think <p> was a paragraph separator, so I'd never use a </p>, but I didn't know </td> was optional so I always included that)
  35. # [00:26] <Philip`> (so maybe it'd be vaguely interesting to see how other people use these things)
  36. # [00:27] <hsivonen> there's some historical revisionism around the containerness of <p>
  37. # [00:37] <tH> i'm finding more end tags than start tags for a lot of elements, which is... interesting.
  38. # [00:38] <anne> did you study the pages where it occured?
  39. # [00:39] <tH> not yet, i have a feeling it is just one or two really broken pages messing up the stats
  40. # [00:40] <anne> pretty cool that so many people are doing studies now
  41. # [00:45] <Philip`> Oh, I've still got the end tag stats from the ~2000 pages I looked at ages ago
  42. # [00:47] <Philip`> For the end tag : start tag ratio, 'ziffhtml' wins with a score of infinity
  43. # [00:47] <Philip`> and there's six more </applet> than there is <applet>
  44. # [00:48] <Philip`> 55K <p> vs 40K </p>
  45. # [00:48] <Philip`> 159K <td> vs 158K </td>
  46. # [00:50] <Philip`> 467 <embed> vs 314 </embed>
  47. # [00:51] <Philip`> 59K <li> vs 53K </li>
  48. # [00:51] <Philip`> (I hope I've not got some horrible error in my hacked-together analysis code)
  49. # [00:51] <Philip`> (but I guess those numbers sound reasonable)
  50. # [00:52] <tH> those look like they're similar to mine
  51. # [00:53] <tH> so maybe a quarter of the world is deliberately leaving out </p> :P
  52. # [00:54] <Philip`> I only see one missed </html>
  53. # [00:55] <Philip`> People waste so much bandwidth on optional tags :-(
  54. # [00:57] <tH> http://bugs.rdmsoft.com/html/stats/2007-07-18/endtags
  55. # [00:57] <tH> plenty of missing </dt> and </dd> compared to how much they're used
  56. # [00:57] <tH> (insert usual disclaimer about my stats probably being all wrong)
  57. # [00:58] <Philip`> Could you show diff as a percentage of start?
  58. # [01:01] <Philip`> Hmm, your numbers of start tags seem significantly different to what I have at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/stats/analyse.cgi/index
  59. # [01:02] <Philip`> Oops, is that my old one?
  60. # [01:03] <Philip`> Oh, yes
  61. # [01:03] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/index seems closer
  62. # [01:05] <Philip`> The /stats/ one is from the Alexa top 500, which is presumably why it's significantly biased away from <td> and <br>
  63. # [01:06] <tH> my pages come from web searches for random words, that might bias it towards newer pages with less tables, but that's only a guess
  64. # [01:06] <tH> I added percentages to the endtags page
  65. # [01:07] <Philip`> That's an awful lot of </nobr>
  66. # [01:12] <Philip`> http://bugs.rdmsoft.com/html/stats/2007-07-18/class - that's also rather a lot of donMenuText - can you see what pages that comes from?
  67. # [01:12] <tH> i have a page with 9301 </nobr> and 0 <nobr>
  68. # [01:13] <tH> it also has 27922 <font>
  69. # [01:13] <Philip`> Ooh, great fun
  70. # [01:14] <tH> all the donMenuText are from one page
  71. # [01:15] <Philip`> It's good to know the target audience which HTML5 has to be designed for
  72. # [01:15] <Philip`> or at least designed to cope with
  73. # [01:15] * tH waits for firefox to unhang loading the page
  74. # [01:15] <Philip`> or at least designed to be abused by, or something along those lines
  75. # [01:18] <tH> http://www.active.com/donate/sdkomen06 - I suppose it's nice that it's a list of charity donations making the page code 3MB :)
  76. # [01:20] <tH> the other one, with loads of </nobr> and <font>, is a spammed-up forum page, I didn't let it finish loading
  77. # [01:21] <Philip`> Nice, they use <SPACER> too
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  114. # [12:32] <zcorpan> anne: updated dom2string.js. and the data/ seems to be outdated
  115. # [12:41] <anne> I believe I updated both already
  116. # [12:43] <zcorpan> ah. indeed
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  118. # [13:02] <anne> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ should prolly say "Editors' draft" ...
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  149. # [22:12] <hsivonen> http://validator.nu/ http://html5.validator.nu/ and http://parsetree.validator.nu/ are up
  150. # [22:19] <Philip`> hsivonen: Is it recommended to not use http://validator.nu/html5/?doc=... (and to use html5.v.n/?doc= instead)?
  151. # [22:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: yes (but I added a redirect for you :-)
  152. # [22:21] <Philip`> I probably shouldn't link to unadvertised interfaces :-)
  153. # [22:22] <Philip`> I've fixed the things at e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/v%253Astroke now
  154. # [22:22] <hsivonen> parsetree.v.n is not an end user site. it is for WG members to use so they can get another opinion besides html5lib with a different set of bugs
  155. # [22:22] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks. I guess I could now remove the redirect. :-)
  156. # [22:24] <Philip`> (The validator links on my page aren't incredibly useful, but at least I found it handy when looking at sites with duplicate attributes and wanting more informative error reports, which is why I've left them in)
  157. # [22:26] <Philip`> Would it be possible to pass bits of HTML directly to parsetree.validator.nu, instead of having to upload it somewhere first?
  158. # [22:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: sometime in the future, yes. not at the moment
  159. # [22:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: this would require refactoring the Content-Type handling code out of the entity resolver and making the servlet build an InputSource from the POST data using that same code
  160. # [22:28] <hsivonen> not a big deal. just not done yet
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  162. # [22:33] <hsivonen> parsetree.v.n uses the new parser in a tree building mode
  163. # [22:33] <hsivonen> the validation facets use it in a streaming mode
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  167. # [22:36] <hsivonen> judging from http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebluebirds%2Ecom%2Ept , Jing/oNVDL works fine even if SAX reports non-NCName names to it
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  169. # [22:39] <zcorpan> Error: Element v:shapetype from namespace http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml not allowed in this context. Line 95, column 99 in resource http://www.bluebirds.com.pt/
  170. # [22:39] <zcorpan> Error: Attribute id not allowed at this point; ignored. Line 95, column 99 in resource http://www.bluebirds.com.pt/
  171. # [22:39] <zcorpan> the id attribute is always allowed on elements in the html namespace
  172. # [22:40] <zcorpan> "The following attributes are common to and may be specified on all HTML elements (even those not defined in this specification):"
  173. # [22:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: after the first error, anything goes. :-)
  174. # [22:40] <Philip`> Why does http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fyahoo.com complain about "Attribute href not allowed at this point" on what appears to be just an <a href="...">?
  175. # [22:40] <hsivonen> zcorpan: yeah, but living up to the letter of the spec when one error is triggered would have a great cost of not being able to use certain off-the-shelf tools
  176. # [22:42] <zcorpan> ok
  177. # [22:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: I have no idea. Chances are you've found a bug.
  178. # [22:43] <Philip`> http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx is a single line of HTML - I guess they're not fans of letting people use 'view source'
  179. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fyahoo.com&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fcheckers%2Fdebug%2F+http%3A%2F%2Fsyntax.whattf.org%2Frelaxng%2Fhtml5full.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fsyntax.whattf.org%2Frelaxng%2Fassertions.sch+http%3A%2F%2Fhsivonen.iki.fi%2Fcheckers%2Fall%2F&parser=html5
  180. # [22:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: the parser seems to be reporting sane things
  181. # [22:47] <Philip`> When it says "Element p ... requires significant inline content but did not have any.", is it easy to make the line number point to the insignificantly-contented element's start tag rather than to the (sometimes implied) end tag?
  182. # [22:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: harder but relatively doable
  183. # [22:49] <hsivonen> (need to copy the start Locator on stack and add an error method that takes a Locator. that would be it)
  184. # [22:50] <hsivonen> but I have to pack a bag and get some sleep now
  185. # [22:50] <Philip`> Is it intentional that <pre>if (1 < 2) ...</pre> is a parse error in HTML5, but valid in HTML4?
  186. # [22:51] <zcorpan> perhaps < should get the same treatment as & ?
  187. # [22:52] <Philip`> "<p>If the pointer points to a 0x3C (ASCII '<') byte" has the same situation
  188. # [22:52] <Philip`> because the < is interpreted as a tag opener
  189. # [22:52] <hsivonen> will either of you email the list about this?
  190. # [22:53] <hsivonen> (except pandering to poor authorship, not-the-pro-way replies...)
  191. # [22:53] <Philip`> Semicolon in "<td>EURO SIGN ('&#x20AC')" has the same situation too
  192. # [22:53] <Philip`> The HTML5 spec isn't very good at being valid HTML5 :-)
  193. # [22:56] <Philip`> (The < and ; and <p><p> are the only issues I can see, though)
  194. # [22:57] <zcorpan> <p><p>?
  195. # [22:58] <Philip`> If someone understands the situation and how/whether to fix these things, it'd probably be best if they could post something about it :-)
  196. # [22:58] <Philip`> zcorpan: More like "<p> <p>"
  197. # [22:58] <Philip`> which is used in the HTML5 spec
  198. # [22:58] <Philip`> (but isn't valid HTML5)
  199. # [22:59] <Philip`> so presumably the spec should be changed so that it's valid
  200. # [22:59] <zcorpan> where is that used?
  201. # [22:59] <Philip`> (although there are two totally different ways in which "the spec should be changed" can be interpreted...)
  202. # [23:00] <hsivonen> Philip`: yeah, instead of making the significant inline checker be smarter about Locator, I'd rather see Hixie zap the entire significant inline concept
  203. # [23:00] <Philip`> The end tags of the empty <p>s are on lines 13734, 13746, 13761, 13773
  204. # [23:00] <Philip`> of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/
  205. # [23:02] <Philip`> or they're in http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-video.html
  206. # [23:02] <zcorpan> ok
  207. # [23:06] <hsivonen> Philip`: my initial suspicion is that the href error is due to the <font> parent that is unsupported
  208. # [23:07] <hsivonen> looks like hacking Jing to silence attribute errors on forbidden elements is something I need to do at some point
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  210. # [23:11] <hsivonen> btw, XHTML is no longer fatal:
  211. # [23:11] <hsivonen> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fzeldman.com%2F
  212. # [23:11] <hsivonen> (and it appears that I have forgotten to suppress xmlns)
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  216. # [23:34] <Lionheart> BTW, anne, just got around to reading your "Why video?" blog post. I thought your argument for <video> over <object> was cogent.
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The end :)