/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-07-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Jul 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  39. # [05:15] <karl> hmm the number of messages on the list became reasonable
  40. # [05:15] <karl> summervacation++
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  55. # [07:17] <karl> Is there an html5 C parser yet
  56. # [07:17] <karl> I don't see it listed in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTMLAsSheAreSpoke
  57. # [07:17] <karl> if any
  58. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> karl - no C parser yet
  59. # [07:18] <karl> ah thanks Mike
  60. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> Sam Ruby says he is willing to work on making one, only if others agree to help maintain it
  61. # [07:18] <karl> That would be definitely great to have one
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  63. # [07:19] <karl> I wonder how long it would take
  64. # [07:20] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTMLAsSheAreSpoke this page should be reorganized to show html5 implementations separated from the rest
  65. # [07:20] <karl> hmmm
  66. # [07:20] <karl> I will edit it a bit
  67. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> karl - ask Sam (sruby, I think) over on #whatwg next time you see him on there
  68. # [07:23] <MikeSmith> I think the amount of time it will take will depend mostly on how soon others step forward to take Sam up on his offer to work on it together
  69. # [07:26] <karl> hmmm how much sometimes I prefer rdf to html for lists you can sort and rearrange on the spot
  70. # [07:26] <karl> ok I reorganized the list http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTMLAsSheAreSpoke#preview
  71. # [07:27] <karl> ok I reorganized the list http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTMLAsSheAreSpoke
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  73. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> karl - there is a standing ban about saying anything good about RDF on this channel
  74. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> please respect that ban
  75. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> if you want to say anything bad, though
  76. # [07:35] <MikeSmith> then go ahead
  77. # [07:36] <MikeSmith> anything bad about RDF, even if you don't know what the hell you are talking about, that is welcome here
  78. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> comparisons to the Spanish Inquisition are also encouraged
  79. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> squeeze those in whenever you can
  80. # [07:38] <karl> ;)
  81. # [07:38] <karl> squeezing++
  82. # [07:38] <mjs> RDF is communism
  83. # [07:38] <sbuluf> good
  84. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> mjs - RDF if worse than communism. It is counterrevolutionary Trotskyism
  85. # [07:41] <MikeSmith> anybody who believes it is good needs to go the reeducation gulag to be de-brainwashed
  86. # [07:41] <karl> mjs, there is only american people who think that communism is a dangerous word. ;)
  87. # [07:42] <mjs> karl: I'm Polish
  88. # [07:42] <karl> I'm Polite :)
  89. # [07:42] <karl> I was about to say that...
  90. # [07:43] <mjs> I would prefer RDF to communism
  91. # [07:43] <mjs> if it really came down to it
  92. # [07:43] <karl> people from actual past and current communist countries know the meaning of power abuse
  93. # [07:43] <karl> still it doesn't make the word dangerous
  94. # [07:45] <MikeSmith> I don't think you need to be from a communist country to know the meaning of power abuse
  95. # [07:46] <karl> for west european countries, communism has never been an issue and even more a symbol to fight against some right-wing movements. Franco (Spain), Nazi occupation in France, etc. It helps to achieve of lot of social laws in France. etc etc etc. There are always more than one side.
  96. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> I think Dick Cheney is giving USA people a good lesson in that for the last few years
  97. # [07:46] <karl> MikeSmith: hehe
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  114. # [09:31] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2007JulSep/0029.html
  115. # [09:43] <anne> karl, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/ now redirects...
  116. # [09:43] <anne> also, what .htaccess rule did you use for such alternate URLs?
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  118. # [09:49] <zcorpan> http://www.w3.org/International/2004/10/xhtml2-i18n-review.html
  119. # [09:50] <anne> can't rename attributes I'm afraid...
  120. # [09:50] <anne> requiring xml:lang just leads to bad practice
  121. # [09:51] <anne> changing <abbr title=> also breaks compat
  122. # [09:52] <karl> I think the rewrite rule had been rewritten to avoid the load on the cvs server.
  123. # [09:52] <karl> Maybe the good thing would be to do a commit on www space
  124. # [09:52] <anne> karl, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ isn't redirecting though
  125. # [09:53] <anne> karl, maybe the sys team can set up commit hooks?
  126. # [09:53] <anne> karl, apparently they can already organize some mailing list to be e-mailed
  127. # [09:54] <karl> yes a commit hook would be the good solution.
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  129. # [10:04] <MikeSmith> Zeros - you there?
  130. # [10:04] <Zeros> I am
  131. # [10:05] <MikeSmith> I want to apologize to you. Last time we were both here at the same time, I was being obnoxious and it was uncalled for.
  132. # [10:06] <MikeSmith> Sorry, you just kind of caught me at the wrong time.
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  134. # [10:07] <Zeros> Oh, apology accepted, thanks. :)
  135. # [10:07] <Zeros> Were you one of the people working on the html parsers?
  136. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> Zeros - Nope. Right now I'm working on other stuff that mostly not related directly to HTML at all.
  137. # [10:09] <Zeros> ah, okay.
  138. # [10:09] <anne> people working on a parser are listed here: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/
  139. # [10:09] <Zeros> The html5lib code is really good. Rather nice to look over.
  140. # [10:10] <anne> (including those people working on Java, C, Perl, etc. as they contribute tests to html5lib)
  141. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> Zeros - Any chance you're interested in working on parsers? There's a need to also have an HTML5 parser in C
  142. # [10:12] <anne> Philip` is doing some work on a C one and I believe Sam Ruby expressed some interest too
  143. # [10:13] <Zeros> I'd not be the best person to work on that, that's not a language I'm good with.
  144. # [10:13] <Zeros> Happy to help in other capacities though.
  145. # [10:15] <MikeSmith> Zeros - You willing to write test cases? Eventually we are going to need many many test cases.
  146. # [10:15] <Zeros> sure
  147. # [10:15] <Zeros> speaking of which, how are unclosed sequential entities supposed to be parsed? &amp&amp&amp ?
  148. # [10:16] <Zeros> Presto and Gecko generate &&&, Webkit generates && and appears to just ignore the last one.
  149. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> anne - didn't know (or forget) that Philip` was working on C implementation. Is there are reason why he and Sam aren't collaborating on one? I remember Sam saying that he would be willing to put work into a C implementation only if others agreed to help debug it and maintain it.
  150. # [10:17] <anne> Zeros, bug in Webkit
  151. # [10:18] <Zeros> okay, I'll add a ticket
  152. # [10:18] <anne> MikeSmith, I suppose Sam hasn't started yet; I believe he knows of the work Philip` is doing
  153. # [10:18] <MikeSmith> ok
  154. # [10:18] <anne> (which is rather cool, he implemented it in some functional language and then generates JS, Perl and C code on the fly)
  155. # [10:19] <anne> (just the tokenizer though)
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  157. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> Philip` did?
  158. # [10:19] <anne> yeah
  159. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> ocaml or something I think?
  160. # [10:19] <anne> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/tokeniser_spec.ml
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  166. # [10:28] <Zeros> oh, so it wasn't the sequential entities, it was the EOF that caused it. Go figure.
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  168. # [10:30] <anne> does make more sense
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  173. # [10:48] <anne> zcorpan, so if it has another ancestor it's still the html element?
  174. # [10:58] <zcorpan> anne: yes
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  176. # [11:16] <zcorpan> having several root elements is also a nice feature... :)
  177. # [11:17] <anne> several?
  178. # [11:18] <anne> right
  179. # [11:18] <anne> that would screw up CSS, sort of
  180. # [11:19] <anne> although it's already a problem with foreignObject...
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  182. # [11:45] <Sander> ooh! http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070725&mode=classic
  183. # [11:46] <anne> heh
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  187. # [12:11] <Sander> anyone want to weigh in here: http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/07/should_intervie_1.html ?
  188. # [12:14] <zcorpan> Sander: ...what Tino Zijdel said
  189. # [12:14] * anne agreed with nr4 too
  190. # [12:15] <Sander> I don't know. Wasn't the whole reason the <dialog> element was created that <dl> isn't appropriate here?
  191. # [12:16] <Sander> ordering matters in an interview/dialogue
  192. # [12:16] <Sander> and then I'd say that a generic element which is right is better than a specific element which is wrong
  193. # [12:18] <zcorpan> html4 suggests <dl> for dialogs
  194. # [12:18] <zcorpan> so <dl> for dialogs is not wrong per html4 spirit
  195. # [12:19] <Sander> point
  196. # [12:20] <Sander> I guess I've been falling in the trap of seeing html 4 too much as a flawed starting point which thus can be completely ignored, rather than as current reality.
  197. # [12:21] <zcorpan> oh sure, html4 can be completely ignored... but in ppk's case the guidelines required html4
  198. # [12:25] <zcorpan> converting an email conversation to html, it wouldn't be inappropriate to use blockquote for the *questions*
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  211. # [13:22] <Philip`> MikeSmith: I've been doing a tokeniser in C++ rather than C
  212. # [13:23] <MikeSmith> Philip` - I see. But Sam has proposed doing one in C, right?
  213. # [13:23] <Philip`> Most of the more complex C++ code is just scaffolding to get input and output in the right places, and an OCaml program generates the code for the actual tokenisation algorithm (and that could be easily adpated to create plain C instead of C++)
  214. # [13:23] * MikeSmith nods
  215. # [13:24] <Philip`> (since it's already adapted to produce JS (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/parser/tokeniser.html) and Perl too)
  216. # [13:25] <Philip`> I believe he had proposed porting html5lib to C, but he would be happier to do it if there was a group of people to maintain that and the other ports (e.g. the Ruby one)
  217. # [13:26] <MikeSmith> right, yeah, that's what I recall him having said
  218. # [13:27] <Philip`> In theory, my approach means I can maintain the C++/JS/Perl implementations simultaneously by only changing one file, though I have no idea how well that'll work in practice since there haven't been any spec changes since I wrote it
  219. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> Philip` - what about performance of the code generated in those target languages from your OCaml source?
  220. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> Does it perform as well as if it were authored natively in the target languages?
  221. # [13:31] <MikeSmith> Particularly the C++ code?
  222. # [13:34] <Philip`> As far as I can tell, the C++ one is close to that - it's a couple of hundred times faster than Python, and I think a few times faster than Java, and I've not been able to think of any manual changes that improve it measurably
  223. # [13:36] <Philip`> If there are things that would help, the OCaml code already does some simple optimisations before generating the target code and it can probably recognise and transform other patterns
  224. # [13:38] <Philip`> (The generated C++ is pretty much identical to http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/parser/tokeniser_auto.js)
  225. # [13:38] <Philip`> (though the generated Perl is quite differently structured, since it doesn't do 'switch')
  226. # [13:41] <Philip`> (When I last looked, most of the time in the C++ code was spent in allocating memory for strings and in reading from the input stream, which is in the manually-written part - fixing those made it a couple of times faster)
  227. # [13:46] <MikeSmith> Philip` - thanks. I don't ask out of any particular concern about its performance but mostly because I think it's a concern that others might ask.
  228. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> But from what you describe, seems like it's a very "portable" algorithm
  229. # [13:47] <MikeSmith> if that's an accurate way to describe something such as that
  230. # [14:18] <anne> Writing HTML doesn't cover duplicate attributes (cf Tarquin)
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  235. # [15:06] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cb%20z%3D%26quot%3B%3Etest%3C/b%3E%3C/p%3E%3Cscript%3Ew%28document.body.firstChild.innerHTML%29%3C/script%3E - Opera is really not very good at that
  236. # [15:08] <anne> <B z='"'>test</B> is what 9.5 gives
  237. # [15:08] <anne> fwiw
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  240. # [15:28] <anne> hmm, member-only stuff on forms tf: http://www.w3.org/2007/07/20-hcg-minutes.html#item08
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  249. # [16:43] <anne> fun
  250. # [16:43] <anne> cross-posting to three lists
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  279. # [19:24] <Philip`> If anyone happens to look at hundreds of thousands of web pages in the future, it could be interesting to see how many people use <comment> with significant content (i.e. not just containing whitespace and real <!--...--> comments)
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  287. # [20:15] * tH thinks the D in DOM should stand for DOM.
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  312. # Session Close: Thu Jul 26 00:00:00 2007

The end :)