/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-01 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 01 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.132.175.22) (Quit: gsnedders)
  4. # [00:12] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cp%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.write%28%27%3C%21DOCTYP%27%29%3B%20w%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%27p%27%29%5B0%5D.firstChild.nextSibling%29%3C/script%3EE%20HTML%3E
  5. # [00:13] <Philip`> or am I just getting confused about something?
  6. # [00:13] <Philip`> At the point where it does the w(), should there be a bogus comment with the content "DOCTYP"?
  7. # [00:14] <Philip`> (and compare to the case when you have "X HTML" instead of "E HTML")
  8. # [00:15] <jgraham> Fun
  9. # [00:16] <Philip`> (and compare to the case when you have "DOCTYX" instead of "DOCTYP")
  10. # [00:17] <Philip`> Also, does anyone actually care what you get in this case?
  11. # [00:17] <jgraham> I can't see a comment in Opera in any case
  12. # [00:18] <jgraham> FF trunk has the behaviour I presume you see
  13. # [00:19] <Philip`> Opera seems to totally ignore bogus comments
  14. # [00:19] <Philip`> (http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21foo%3E etc)
  15. # [00:19] * Parts: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22)
  16. # [00:20] <jgraham> That would explain it, I guess
  17. # [00:21] <Philip`> FF doesn't do anything to the <!... until it sees a >
  18. # [00:22] <Philip`> FF trunk just crashes all the time so I don't know what it's doing
  19. # [00:22] <Philip`> (The earlier FF was FF2)
  20. # [00:24] <Philip`> I think the problem is the spec says 'if the next seven characters are a case-insensitive match for the word "DOCTYPE"' without it being clear what happens if the next seven characters are beyond the insertion point
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  22. # [00:27] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%3Cp%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.write%28%27%26not%27%29%3B%20w%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%27p%27%29%5B0%5D.innerHTML%29%3C/script%3Ein%3B
  23. # [00:29] <Philip`> IE has no character when it does w(), then has a notin character once it's finished
  24. # [00:29] <Philip`> FF2 does the same
  25. # [00:29] <Philip`> Opera has a not character when it does w(), and then adds on 'in;' at the end
  26. # [00:30] <Philip`> Safari has no character when it does w(), then has the text '&in;' at the end
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  36. # [01:57] <karl> XHTML Basic 1.1 Elements and Attributes reference - http://www.w3.org/2007/07/xhtml-basic-ref.html
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  42. # [03:20] <karl> data:text/plain;charset=iso-8859-7,Hello%20World
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  44. # [03:26] <karl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes list of URI schemes
  45. # [03:26] <karl> and http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes.html
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  49. # [04:56] <karl> interesting timeplot thing. http://simile.mit.edu/timeplot/docs/ If the data where taken from a table or list in the page that would be even better.
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  55. # [06:10] <karl> hmm there is a missing index in HTML 4.01
  56. # [06:10] <karl> there is an element index
  57. # [06:11] <karl> there is an attribute index
  58. # [06:11] <karl> but there is an index by data types
  59. # [06:11] <karl> there ISN'T an index by data types
  60. # [06:12] <karl> CDATA, ID, URI, etc.
  61. # [06:13] * karl is discovering http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html#HTML.Reserved
  62. # [06:14] <karl> <!-- The following attributes are reserved for possible future use -->
  63. # [06:14] <karl> <![ TML.Reserved; [
  64. # [06:14] <karl> <!ENTITY % reserved
  65. # [06:14] <karl> "datasrc RI; #IMPLIED -- a single or tabular Data Source --
  66. # [06:14] <karl> datafld CDATA #IMPLIED -- the property or column name --
  67. # [06:14] <karl> dataformatas (plaintext|html) plaintext -- text or html --"
  68. # [06:14] <karl> >
  69. # [06:14] <karl> ]]>
  70. # [06:15] <karl> dataFormatAs -> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533706.aspx
  71. # [06:15] <karl> datafld -> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533703.aspx
  72. # [06:16] <karl> datasrc -> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533709.aspx
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  76. # [06:44] <karl> welcome mike
  77. # [06:44] <MikeSmith> hei
  78. # [06:54] * MikeSmith follows link from karl's link to find Dom's dtd-doc.py
  79. # [06:54] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2007/dtd-doc/
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  81. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> karl - I added the "device" scheme to that URI Schemes page
  82. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes
  83. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes/device
  84. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> I also added a note about the HTML5 registerProtocolHandler() method
  85. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> [[
  86. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> The current editor's draft of the W3C HTML5 specification describes a new registerProtocolHandler() DOM method to enable Web sites to register themselves as possible handlers for particular protocols. Note: Support for registerProtocolHandler() is not yet implemented in any browsers.
  87. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> ]]
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  96. # [09:34] <anne> Philip`, one of the things with the 3D API is that you have to perform input checks, I read somewhere that OpenGL crashes if you pass the wrong objects
  97. # [09:35] <anne> Philip`, that can't be allowed for an API that has to work on the Web, obviously
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  99. # [09:49] <hsivonen> surely the JS engine makes sure that any pointers it passes on are valid and the JS programmer has no way of making the JS engine have invalid pointers
  100. # [09:50] <hsivonen> or are there ways of making OpenGL crash that involve passing in bad coordinate values (as opposed to passing bad pointers)?
  101. # [09:51] <hsivonen> last time when I did OpenGL programming, I wasn't trying to crash the system. :-)
  102. # [09:52] <anne> http://wiki.mozilla.org/Canvas:3D/Historical#Security_Considerations
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  104. # [09:53] <hsivonen> anne: those issues look like something a same JS wrapper would have to take care of right away--not just as a security check
  105. # [09:54] <hsivonen> s/same/sane/
  106. # [09:54] <hsivonen> if the statefulness made some operation sequences bad, that would be harder to protect against
  107. # [09:55] <hsivonen> hmm. looks like Mercurial--not git--is going to be the next big thing after Subversion...
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  110. # [10:04] <anne> hsivonen, well, it means that there's a bit more involved than simply making the mapping
  111. # [10:31] * MikeSmith wonders what makes hsivonen conclude that Mercurial is going to win out over Git
  112. # [10:48] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: Mozilla choosing it and OpenJDK leaning towards it. And that there seems to be an Eclipse plug-in coming up.
  113. # [10:48] <hsivonen> IIRC, Technorati uses Mercurial, too.
  114. # [10:48] <hsivonen> whereas Git seems to be a kernel developer thing
  115. # [10:49] <hsivonen> (I haven't experience with either myself.)
  116. # [10:52] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/
  117. # [10:59] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - I've used mercurial and like it. Also bzr/Bazaar. The main advantage that Git seems to have over everything else is significantly faster performance for certain use cases. But seems like for many projects, it might be overkill in that for the use cases in which the performance differences are significant are not relevant to those projects
  118. # [11:00] <MikeSmith> from what I understand, mainly seems to be important for projects/developers that regularly do a lot of merging
  119. # [11:00] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: the feeling I get about what system is going where isn't about what they *do*. It seems to me that bzr in an Ubuntu thing and git is a kernel thing but Mercurial shows up in many places
  120. # [11:01] <MikeSmith> I see
  121. # [11:10] * Quits: schepers (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  122. # [11:19] <beowulf> that's twice now phillip taylor has said something like 'damn lazy web designers'
  123. # [11:20] <hsivonen> they'll be lazy even if the spec vehemently asserts that they shouldn't be :-(
  124. # [11:20] <beowulf> s/phillip/philip
  125. # [11:21] <beowulf> well i count myself in the 'damn lazy webdesigners' group
  126. # [11:22] <anne> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+lazy+web%22
  127. # [11:23] <hsivonen> often I don't disagree about what the ideal world would be but I disagree about making designs that require an ideal world. designs that work in a world where people don't behave in ideal ways are more robust
  128. # [11:24] <anne> well said
  129. # [11:25] <beowulf> alt tags on img are a pain
  130. # [11:25] <anne> I almost never know what to write
  131. # [11:26] <anne> They are mostly just there to illustrate the rest of the content so I opt for the empty string
  132. # [11:27] <beowulf> me too
  133. # [11:27] <beowulf> in fact i'm starting to just not use the img tag
  134. # [11:27] <beowulf> if it's an image that simply illustrates the rest of the text
  135. # [11:28] <beowulf> <div id="img01">If i want some fallback text i'll throw it in here.</div.
  136. # [11:29] <beowulf> and use css
  137. # [11:30] <hsivonen> I except most of my alt texts to suck, because I didn't know how to make them not suck in a reasonable amount of thinking time
  138. # [11:31] <anne> beowulf, that's not really useful though for blogs
  139. # [11:31] <anne> blog posts*
  140. # [11:32] <beowulf> anne: sure, but so far it seems to be useful when i want the html to have no images in it, say for mobile devices with low bandwidth/memory
  141. # [11:32] <beowulf> and i can always put a link to the img in another location in the fallback text if it's needed
  142. # [11:35] * hsivonen notes writing except instead of expect the second time on IRC in a few days
  143. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - very true about not designing for an ideal world. I can say in my professional experience it is plain folly to design systems with the "But no real user is ever going to do X", where you X is something you would never do yourself and so assume no user would ever be likely to try.
  144. # [11:39] <MikeSmith> Because some user will eventually do it, of course.
  145. # [11:41] <MikeSmith> At that point you can blame the idiot user all you want, or, say, explain as much as you want to the client/customer for whom you built that system that you had no way of predicting that a user would ever try that...
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  148. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> I'd like to see some of the people advocating that approach try to explain it to real customers.
  149. # [11:42] <MikeSmith> "Well, we designed it that way because we didn't want to encourage people to be lazy."
  150. # [11:43] <hsivonen> back when I was doing my military service, I was tasked with the maintenance and UI implementation of a metadata spec
  151. # [11:43] <hsivonen> I got involved in the project too late and didn't have enough rank to turn the spec around
  152. # [11:44] <hsivonen> the attitude was that the military can require any metadata they please because they can order people into compliance
  153. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> heh
  154. # [11:44] <MikeSmith> order the sun to stop shining
  155. # [11:45] <hsivonen> making people to provide additional data that they don't want to provide doesn't work even in the military
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  158. # [11:45] <hsivonen> people will find ways to route around systems that ask for stuff they don't want to provide
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  160. # [11:46] <beowulf> the alt tag isn't only data people don't want to provide, 9/10 it's data you can't provide
  161. # [11:46] <beowulf> the phrase "a picture is worth a thousand words" springs to mind
  162. # [11:47] <hsivonen> beowulf: yeah, the military metadata spec also initially asked for things that were *impossible* to provide correctly
  163. # [11:47] <hsivonen> (I won't go into details)
  164. # [11:47] <beowulf> :)
  165. # [11:47] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - yeah, when my dad first joined the Air Force during the 1960s, he was on one of the ICBM missile crews, stationed in bunkers in Nebraska, and said that part of their hourly duties were in providing information on forms/checklists about all the stuff they were supposed to check each hour
  166. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> most of which if they actually did it would have taken 2 hours to do
  167. # [11:48] <MikeSmith> some of which was not even possible to do at all under the conditions
  168. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> he said they "complied by sharpened pencil", or something in those terms
  169. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> said they kept plenty of sharp pencils around
  170. # [11:49] <MikeSmith> to fill out all the checklists
  171. # [11:50] <MikeSmith> without ever completing half of the tasks they were supposedly checking off as having been performed
  172. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, on this note, I see that Kurt Cagle mentions HTML5 in something he wrote for his XML.com blog recently
  173. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> http://www.oreillynet.com/xml/blog/2007/07/wheres_xml_going.html
  174. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> have others already seen that?
  175. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> was there some discussion about it already?
  176. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> not that it's particularly important
  177. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> but he wrote:
  178. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> [[
  179. # [11:53] <anne> I saw it
  180. # [11:53] <MikeSmith> HTML 5 and Bindings. Note to the HTML camp - HTML 5.0 will be XML based, it’s just a question of how much core technology will separate it from XHTML 2. There is no valid reason for HTML not to close its tags, quote its attributes, and respect namespaces.
  181. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> ]]
  182. # [11:54] <anne> Didn't think it was really relevant what he wrote though
  183. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> anne - I don't know where he's coming from with that.
  184. # [11:54] <anne> It's provably false per our charter...
  185. # [11:54] <MikeSmith> yep
  186. # [11:55] <anne> and a solved issue. I agree that a potential bigger debate is about XForms vs WF2 and such
  187. # [11:55] <MikeSmith> wow -- just looking outside now ... absolutely beautiful sunset in Tokyo tonight
  188. # [11:56] <MikeSmith> anne - right
  189. # [11:56] <hsivonen> it seems to me that Kurt Cagle is missing the point on what were are doing and what we must do with text/html
  190. # [11:56] <hsivonen> that is, an XML parser isn't an option
  191. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - It seems that way, but I should really think he ought to know better.
  192. # [11:57] <MikeSmith> but maybe he doesn't
  193. # [11:58] <hsivonen> I think we should marked HTML5 (in the text/html sense) as an alternative infoset serialization for an extended subset of infosets when we talk to people who are doing XML-oriented stuff
  194. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> I still run into a lot of otherwise apparently quite smart people who don't really seem to understand much about how browsers really work.
  195. # [11:58] <hsivonen> s/marked/market/
  196. # [11:58] <MikeSmith> heh
  197. # [11:59] <MikeSmith> I guess that might help
  198. # [11:59] <anne> hmm, Jason White missed my point it seems
  199. # [11:59] <anne> (and I actually didn't make a point, I just "quoted" one
  200. # [12:00] <beowulf> anne: he missed the point you didn't make by quite some mark...
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  202. # [12:02] <beowulf> but i like that he mentioned mobile devices :)
  203. # [12:04] <anne> I was thinking of citing several examples to back up the point I didn't make. Such as what tricks we have to perform to make content render properly on phones. Or what weird stuff some sites use that will only make them function in IE, etc.
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  205. # [12:16] <beowulf> i've been trying to get across in here that most web designers do not have the luxury of time needed to go through the hoops for mobile design
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  216. # [13:36] <Philip`> Karl: Related to HTML.Reserved, try <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><title></title><table datapagesize=cheese><tr><td></table> in the W3C Validator
  217. # [13:37] <Philip`> Oh, he's not here
  218. # [13:37] <anne> I wonder how this APIs from IE work in IE and if pages use them
  219. # [13:43] <Philip`> anne: With OpenGL, I think there are a few cases where the statefulness makes it hard, like when you set vertex array pointers - you ought to be able to modify the array, but then you might try deleting it or something, or it might get garbage-collected, but you don't want to render anything when the array is no longer valid because it'll just crash, but also you don't want to leave huge arrays sitting around in memory not being garbage collected; I don't r
  220. # [13:43] <Philip`> ...I don't really know how it would be best handled
  221. # [13:44] <anne> does the OpenGL specification define the output rendering btw?
  222. # [13:44] <Philip`> At least it should never crash if you just pass invalid non-pointer (and non-array-index?) values into any function, except for driver bugs
  223. # [13:45] <anne> My information came from http://wiki.mozilla.org/Canvas:3D/Historical#Security_Considerations fwiw
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  225. # [13:46] <Philip`> "The OpenGL speci?cation is not pixel exact. It therefore does not guarantee an exact match between images produced by different GL implementations."
  226. # [13:46] <Philip`> (it says, in Appendix A)
  227. # [13:47] <anne> ok, but that does mean that HTML 5 only needs to define the input checking and not the actual rendering
  228. # [13:47] <Philip`> It does define nearly everything, though
  229. # [13:47] <Philip`> (in terms of rendering)
  230. # [13:47] <anne> (like HTML 5 does for the 2D context)
  231. # [13:49] <Philip`> OpenGL defines e.g. which pixels get set when you draw a non-antialiased point, but it leaves implementation-defined the maximum point size that is supported
  232. # [13:50] <Philip`> (I think OpenGL ES doesn't actually support points at all - it avoids lots of the implementation-defined issues by avoiding lots of the features)
  233. # [13:56] <Philip`> (Oh, GLES does still do points and lines, though it doesn't do quads)
  234. # [14:03] <hsivonen> hmm. I wonder if my XMLReader impl should adhere to the XMLReader API contract by default or conform to HTML5 by default...
  235. # [14:04] <hsivonen> perhaps I should do both by default to force users of the library to flip "dangerous" but useful features on explicitly
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  249. # [16:52] <anne> beowulf, he does it again, twice in one day
  250. # [16:53] <anne> "HTML5 bends over backwards (far too far, IMHO) to pander to the inabilities and inadequacies of the technologically illiterate."
  251. # [16:54] <anne> It's interesting that he's also arguing for better accessibility
  252. # [16:55] <Philip`> Perhaps the idea is that people with disabilities cannot do anything about it, so HTML should cater for them, whereas people who are technologically illiterate just need to learn and so it's their fault that they're not yet literate
  253. # [16:56] <Philip`> (But I don't believe the latter case is true)
  254. # [17:01] <beowulf> as an aside, I find that deeply insulting
  255. # [17:01] <beowulf> but i'll not email tbl
  256. # [17:01] <beowulf> s/deeply//
  257. # [17:01] <anne> watch out, they may be watching the logs ;)
  258. # [17:43] <anne> already 61 messages for Aug1
  259. # [17:43] <anne> ouch, I posted 6
  260. # [17:59] <beowulf> if we make it harder to write html people will find a way to make it easier, that'll mean the equivalent of not filling in alt tags
  261. # [17:59] <beowulf> make it easier and who knows what might happen
  262. # [18:00] <beowulf> so i say pander to us dumb, lazy, illiterate web designers
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  266. # [18:29] <gsnedders> anne: where's that quote from?
  267. # [18:33] <beowulf> gsnedders: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0054.html
  268. # [18:34] <gsnedders> ah. that.
  269. # [18:34] <gsnedders> that was the sort of thread I expected to come up at least once while I was away
  270. # [18:34] <beowulf> cf. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0019.html
  271. # [18:35] <beowulf> (i still don't know if that's the same person)
  272. # [18:37] <Philip`> (I'm fairly sure they're the same person)
  273. # [18:41] <Philip`> (...but not based on any particular evidence)
  274. # [18:51] * DanC realizes he owes a telcon agenda in 10 minutes...
  275. # [19:06] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339553 - hmm
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  302. # [23:21] <Hixie> DanC: i probably won't be able to make the meeting tomorrow (i doubt i'll be awake); hopefully that's ok (i noticed the last few meetings went fine without me)
  303. # [23:22] * Hixie is still reading all the public-html mail that was sent while he was away
  304. # [23:23] <DanC> ok, regrets noted.
  305. # [23:24] <Hixie> thanks
  306. # [23:33] <mjs_> what time is the meeting tomorrow?
  307. # [23:33] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
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  311. # Session Close: Thu Aug 02 00:00:00 2007

The end :)