/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-02 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  8. # [00:57] <Philip`> karl: Related to HTML.Reserved, try <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><title></title><table datapagesize=cheese><tr><td></table> in the W3C Validator
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  14. # [01:23] <karl> hmm indeed that would have to be checked
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  20. # [01:45] <karl> Philip`: where did you get the datapagesize?
  21. # [01:45] <karl> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533708.aspx
  22. # [01:46] <karl> hmm i See
  23. # [01:46] <karl> datapagesize CDATA #IMPLIED -- reserved for possible future use --
  24. # [01:47] <Philip`> I saw it in the DTD a while ago, and noticed it says it's reserved but it's still actually present and active
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  26. # [01:50] <karl> thanks
  27. # [01:53] <karl> hmm there is also event on Script
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  79. # [11:05] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@86.34.246.154)
  80. # [11:11] <anne> Besides the fact that almost everyone uses string concatenation for generating markup isn't the other major issue with XML that IE doesn't do XHTML?
  81. # [11:18] * Joins: mlk (mlk@217.157.139.101)
  82. # [11:21] <anne> anyone know what time the telcon is today?
  83. # [11:21] <anne> nm, found the agenda
  84. # [11:22] <anne> hmm, 17:00:00Z
  85. # [11:23] <anne> would that be 19:00 our time?
  86. # [11:23] <anne> Oslo time, sorry
  87. # [11:25] <zcorpan> anne: yes
  88. # [11:25] <anne> hmm, not sure I can make it then
  89. # [11:26] <laplink> So you're in .no these days anne?
  90. # [11:26] <anne> yeah, have been most of the summer
  91. # [11:26] <anne> zcorpan, one hour telcon?
  92. # [11:26] <laplink> Cool, didn't know that. Visiting or moving?
  93. # [11:26] * Joins: hsivonen (hsivonen@130.233.41.50)
  94. # [11:27] <anne> visiting, need to keep working remote to pass a uni subject now and then :)
  95. # [11:27] <laplink> heh heh
  96. # [11:29] <zcorpan> anne: don't have a microphone
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  98. # [11:38] <hsivonen> I wish I had more time to discuss what "xml processor" means, but I give up
  99. # [11:43] * hsivonen thinks http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm should be required reading
  100. # [11:44] <anne> zcorpan, no, does the telcon take one hour?
  101. # [11:44] <anne> anyway, I can't make it
  102. # [11:44] <anne> someone already reserved a ticket to the probably very bad, but funny, movie Black Sheep
  103. # [11:45] <hsivonen> anne: previously the telecons have been supposed to take an hour
  104. # [11:45] <anne> k, movie starts at 19:00 though
  105. # [11:46] <hsivonen> I'm not going to attend the telecon, either
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  107. # [11:48] <anne> hmm, Gecko now has drawString
  108. # [11:49] <hsivonen> anne: does it do multiline layout? does it do arabic shaping?
  109. # [11:49] <anne> ctx.mozTextStyle = "16pt bold sans serif";
  110. # [11:49] <anne> ctx.mozTextAlongPath(circleText, false);
  111. # [11:49] <anne> var len = ctx.mozMeasureText(centerText);
  112. # [11:49] <anne> ctx.mozDrawText(centerText);
  113. # [11:50] <anne> seem to be the various new members
  114. # [11:51] <anne> there seems to be no documentation...
  115. # [11:51] <anne> nor a proposal to whatwg@whatwg.org ..
  116. # [12:03] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  117. # [12:07] <anne> hsivonen, do you send in regrets or do you just not show up?
  118. # [12:07] * anne wonders how it's supposed to work
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  120. # [12:08] <anne> "Alternate Additional Attribute Set for a Single Quote Element" doesn't list a single usecase :(
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  122. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anne: I haven't sent regrets, because I don't have action items assigned to me specifically in the telecon context and it seems to me that sending regrets wouldn't scale to hundreds of people.
  123. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anne: I don't know if this is right or wrong.
  124. # [12:13] <anne> k, I'll guess I just wait until DanC is around
  125. # [12:28] <laplink> Regrets go to the Chairs with CC to www-archive. cf. DanC's message. fwiw.
  126. # [12:29] <laplink> But I'm not entirely sure he's thought that through.
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  128. # [12:38] <anne> thanks
  129. # [12:38] * anne will wait
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  131. # [12:58] <anne> http://aetherlumina.com/html/sucks.html
  132. # [13:04] <beowulf> :)
  133. # [13:04] <beowulf> and no-one knows how to write an alt tag
  134. # [13:04] <hsivonen> looks like a call to pander to poor authorship and to the techincally illiterate :-)
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  136. # [13:05] <beowulf> yay
  137. # [13:08] * hsivonen notes that JavaDoc uses parentheses in fragment identifiers
  138. # [13:08] <hsivonen> fun for migrating to xml:id and NCName
  139. # [13:14] <hsivonen> jgraham: good stuff on the list
  140. # [13:18] <anne> ouch, 128 already
  141. # [13:21] <hsivonen> Again, I'm the second most prolific contributor to the problem :-(
  142. # [13:22] <anne> only a few e-mails behind! go for it ;-)
  143. # [13:24] <ROBOd> hello guys. pardon me for barging into the discussion (which I didn't follow). I only have one quick question. i'd like to do some spec reviews or any needed work, which falls into "the TODO list". I don't want to come up with emails out of context, nor to bring into discussion only what i am interested. any link which provides a good start on what needs to be done?
  144. # [13:24] <hsivonen> the ID thread is now 28 messages long and no one has come up with an actual problem yet
  145. # [13:25] <anne> ROBOd, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/What_you_can_do
  146. # [13:25] <ROBOd> i think remember i saw some posts to the mailing lists - but i was too busy back then (and i might still be). hopefully i can get to do some work
  147. # [13:25] <ROBOd> thank you anne
  148. # [13:25] <anne> ROBOd, if you have lots of time some work on tutorials would be great
  149. # [13:25] <hsivonen> ROBOd: in the HTML WG context, you could look up DanC's list of review volunteers and pick a section that is not getting proper attention
  150. # [13:25] <hsivonen> metooing to what anne said about tutorial
  151. # [13:26] <ROBOd> hsivonen: i don't know which sections don't get proper attention
  152. # [13:26] <hsivonen> it ain't gonna happen until someone just does it without asking for permission
  153. # [13:26] <hsivonen> it being tutorials
  154. # [13:26] <ROBOd> anne: obviously, i don't have much time. i'd wish to do so, very much actually
  155. # [13:27] <ROBOd> hsivonen: tutorials ... about what would be most needed?
  156. # [13:27] <anne> How to write an HTML document, introduction to syntax, etc. I think
  157. # [13:27] <anne> Well, that's the one most cited anyway
  158. # [13:27] <hsivonen> ROBOd: a tutorial on how to write HTML5 documents properly using an UTF-8-aware text editor
  159. # [13:28] <ROBOd> hsivonen: well, hehe. i'd say use vim 7 and i'd be done with it.
  160. # [13:28] <ROBOd> but ask anne how much he likes vim :)
  161. # [13:28] <ROBOd> (and many others, for that matter)
  162. # [13:28] <hsivonen> ROBOd: as for spec review, see http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
  163. # [13:28] <anne> ROBOd, as for reviewing, I would pick an area where you feel competent about
  164. # [13:29] <ROBOd> anne: obviously i wouldn't pick something i don't feel competent about
  165. # [13:30] <ROBOd> btw, regarding implementations
  166. # [13:30] <ROBOd> i recently made an implementation of WF2 <datalist>, on my own site
  167. # [13:31] <ROBOd> that proved interesting. it's a JS implementation, of course
  168. # [13:32] <ROBOd> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/help-whatwg.org/ < 404 Not Found
  169. # [13:32] <ROBOd> mailing list archive not available?
  170. # [13:32] <ROBOd> i found the link at http://www.whatwg.org/mailing-list#help
  171. # [13:34] <anne> that is yet to be fixed, iirc
  172. # [13:34] <anne> it's a member-only archive atm
  173. # [13:34] <anne> for some unclear reason
  174. # [13:35] <ROBOd> the help archive should be public
  175. # [13:35] <ROBOd> i wanted to take a quick look, maybe i can provide some help
  176. # [13:35] <anne> yeah, it was public, but something went wrong
  177. # [13:35] <anne> will be fixed in due course
  178. # [13:35] <anne> there's http://forums.whatwg.org/ fwiw
  179. # [13:35] <ROBOd> :)
  180. # [13:37] <ROBOd> i'm now looking at http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Test_cases and I was wondering, is there a page providing an overview which tells the sections of the spec with TCs?
  181. # [13:37] <ROBOd> which sections need TCs, etc
  182. # [13:38] <anne> nope, "all" is my guess
  183. # [13:38] <ROBOd> given the *huge* "aspect" of the spec, such organization would be needed
  184. # [13:39] <anne> zcorpan was interested in test org at some point...
  185. # [13:40] <ROBOd> well... maybe i can help with that?
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  187. # [13:40] <ROBOd> i could make a wiki page with an overview of the entire list of the currently available TCs
  188. # [13:41] <ROBOd> and then ... each of the guys who make TCs will update the page themselves
  189. # [13:41] <ROBOd> but i am afraid that won't happen
  190. # [13:41] <anne> yeah, you can reach him at simonp@opera.com
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  193. # [13:42] <ROBOd> i was thinking just now: we could arrange that everyone (hixie, zcorpan, you on tc.labs.opera.com ... etc) provides an Atom feed of the TCs
  194. # [13:43] <ROBOd> and ... then something like Planet Planet indexes the TCs together?
  195. # [13:43] <hsivonen> ROBOd: fwiw, DanC appeared to want an official test suite with the W3C test case grant of right to the W3C
  196. # [13:44] <anne> hmm, if someone mades a testcase scraping script that would generate the Atom feed...
  197. # [13:44] <ROBOd> hsivonen: that would be the proper way. does he need help with this?
  198. # [13:45] <ROBOd> anne: almost each of the TC lists provide the pages in a different "indexing format" now
  199. # [13:45] <ROBOd> anne: i was thinking each of the TC guys can provide themselves Atom feeds (it's not a big deal)
  200. # [13:45] <hsivonen> ROBOd: I'll avoid speaking for DanC, but this topic seemed to be on the telecon agenda
  201. # [13:46] <ROBOd> the Atom feed would ideally only contain the title of the TC and the spec section it applies to
  202. # [13:46] <ROBOd> with a link to the actual TC and author
  203. # [13:46] <hsivonen> ROBOd: non-trivial
  204. # [13:46] <anne> yeah, definitely non-trivial to do
  205. # [13:47] <ROBOd> yeah ... true ... but then... W3C (or someone else?) should provide a single server
  206. # [13:47] <anne> my tests are semi-structured, they don't contain much metadata as everything is changing now and then
  207. # [13:47] <anne> plus, I don't like metadata too much
  208. # [13:47] <ROBOd> and interface for uploading TCs
  209. # [13:47] <hsivonen> ROBOd: most importantly, licensing that stakeholders are happy with
  210. # [13:47] <anne> nah, someone should just keep roughly track of who is testing what and where
  211. # [13:47] <anne> and I believe that is already happening
  212. # [13:47] <ROBOd> anne: where's that happening?
  213. # [13:48] <ROBOd> i'd like to take a look at the spec and see if I can cook some TCs .... but not something already made
  214. # [13:48] <anne> at some point we can merge various efforts (although I suppose it's more likely that one testsuite will remove the need for the other)
  215. # [13:48] <ROBOd> making a TC is also a good way to provide a better review
  216. # [13:48] <anne> there's http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
  217. # [13:49] <hsivonen> anne: why is that wiki page "immutable"?
  218. # [13:49] <hsivonen> oh, my login has gone
  219. # [13:50] <anne> ROBOd, it's not really organized
  220. # [13:51] <anne> at this point all you need is something like: "<canvas> is covered at 1, 2, etc.; WF2 is covered at 1, etc.; Repetition is covered at ...; HTML parsing is coverd by; etc."
  221. # [13:51] <ROBOd> anne: yeah, that wiki page is not really organized, and it doesn't provide tons of details
  222. # [13:51] <anne> That would help to identify gaps
  223. # [13:52] <anne> Then at some future point you can try to identify more detailed gaps such as what features of the <canvas> feature are not adequately covered
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  228. # [14:10] <ROBOd> does the W3C also host the same spec "HTML 5" as the WHATWG?
  229. # [14:10] <ROBOd> or is it different?
  230. # [14:10] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  231. # [14:11] <hsivonen> ROBOd: the substance is the same. the legal stuff is different
  232. # [14:11] <ROBOd> aha
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  234. # [14:12] <anne> the header is different
  235. # [14:12] <anne> the rest is identical (literally)
  236. # [14:13] <anne> and actually, the W3C version (which is a draft) doesn't have a license yet...
  237. # [14:13] <ROBOd> ok, thanks.
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  242. # [14:45] <Philip`> anne: With drawString, they presumably didn't test the code all that well, since it uses "sans serif" when it ought to be "sans-serif" and so it actually draws with a serif font...
  243. # [14:45] <Philip`> (There's also a mozPathText function)
  244. # [14:46] <anne> interesting
  245. # [14:46] <Philip`> (I don't particularly like how it all draws text at (0,0) and you have to do save()/translate()/text()/restore() to move it elsewhere - that seems fairly awkward)
  246. # [14:46] <anne> I suppose TextStyle is parsed like the CSS 'font' property?
  247. # [14:47] <anne> hopefully the standardized API can be improved...
  248. # [14:48] <anne> here it might also be nice to use SVG fonts maybe, for those who like them
  249. # [14:52] <Philip`> They said somewhere that it's the same as the CSS 2.1 'font' shorthand
  250. # [14:54] <anne> ctx.fontStyle would have been more logical in that case... or just ctx.font
  251. # [14:54] <anne> oh well, I suppose API revisions can be done by HTML5/WHATWG
  252. # [14:54] <Philip`> Measuring canvas fonts in pts and ems seems like a bad idea, since everything else on a <canvas> is in pixels and it'll get all mis-scaled when the user changes their default text size
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  255. # [15:00] <anne> you'd want 12cpx
  256. # [15:00] <anne> (12 canvas pixels)
  257. # [15:01] <Philip`> Why not just normal px?
  258. # [15:02] <hsivonen> shouldn't the size be unitless in the coordinate space of the canvas as in SVG when using measures of the coordinate space?
  259. # [15:02] <anne> CSS doesn't do unitless
  260. # [15:03] <anne> Philip`, consider <canvas width=100 height=100 style=width:200px;width:200px>
  261. # [15:03] <anne> you'd want to set the font size using the same "units" you use to draw a line
  262. # [15:04] * Joins: jmb (jmb@81.86.70.47)
  263. # [15:04] <Philip`> I think of the "px" in "12px" as meaning "canvas coordinate space units", but I suppose that's not actually a logical abbreviation
  264. # [15:06] <anne> I suppose that's how it's implemented actually
  265. # [15:06] <anne> Probably makes the most sense
  266. # [15:06] <Philip`> But pixels and CCSUs seem to be treated as equivalent in other places, like <img src="100px-by-100px-image.png"> ... drawImage(img, 0, 0) treats the image pixels like canvas-coordinate-space-units
  267. # [15:06] <Philip`> I don't know how much it matters to keep the concepts separate
  268. # [15:06] <Philip`> I just pretend everything is pixels, because that's easy to understand :-)
  269. # [15:07] <anne> the problem is that there's many types of pixels :p
  270. # [15:07] <hsivonen> anne: CSS as bruised by SVG does unitless
  271. # [15:07] <anne> not in implementations though,afaict
  272. # [15:08] <anne> SVG unitless conflicts with things like line-height
  273. # [15:09] <Philip`> I just pretend there's only one type of pixel :-)
  274. # [15:10] <Philip`> It's just a square with size 1 - how complicated could it be? :-p
  275. # [15:10] <hsivonen> anne: as far as I can tell, Gecko, WebKit, Presto and Prince do unitless font sizes in SVG text
  276. # [15:10] <anne> hsivonen, in CSS style sheets?
  277. # [15:10] <anne> hsivonen, or on SVG attributes?
  278. # [15:11] <hsivonen> anne: at least in SVG attributes. probably style='' too
  279. # [15:11] <hsivonen> anyway, using anything but SVG coordinate space units inside SVG is just asking for trouble
  280. # [15:11] <hsivonen> (and yes, I know that the SVG WG shouldn't have hijacked CSS properties without asking)
  281. # [15:12] <anne> SVG attributes and style are different
  282. # [15:13] <anne> using px works just fine most of the time
  283. # [15:17] <zcorpan> unitless is equal to px in quirks mode
  284. # [15:17] <anne> on certain properties
  285. # [15:17] <hsivonen> anne: only if your svg root is px-sized and the view box has as many units as the CSS box has px
  286. # [15:18] <anne> btw, I believe the SVG solution was to introduce a 'uu' unit
  287. # [15:19] <hsivonen> anne: is it implemented?
  288. # [15:20] <anne> not afaik
  289. # [15:20] <anne> however, there currently isn't any way to use uu in CSS afaik either
  290. # [15:22] <hsivonen> doesn't sound like a solution :-)
  291. # [15:23] <anne> to use user units in CSS
  292. # [15:23] <anne> the uu unit would be a solution, oops
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  308. # [17:02] <Philip`> Apparently the Novell XForms Explorer adds <canvas> support to IE
  309. # [17:02] * Philip` tries that to see if it's actually true...
  310. # [17:05] * Quits: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132) (Ping timeout)
  311. # [17:08] * Joins: beowulf (carisenda@91.84.50.132)
  312. # [17:20] <Philip`> Oh, the XForms Explorer doesn't appear to actually work at all
  313. # [17:20] <Philip`> (and it hasn't been updated for two years anyway)
  314. # [17:26] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.214) (Ping timeout)
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  319. # [17:37] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.221.165) (Ping timeout)
  320. # [17:43] * zcorpan doesn't understand how sam ruby wants cdata sections to be handled in his proposal... nor why
  321. # [17:48] * Joins: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230)
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  323. # [17:51] <Philip`> "The XML CDATA[] syntax is treated as a comment by HTML parsers" - that seems incorrect in Firefox and Opera, and true in Safari and IE
  324. # [17:51] <Philip`> but then it's useless in Safari and IE because "<![CDATA[ 5 > 2 ]]>" is a comment followed by the text " 2 ]]>"
  325. # [17:52] <Philip`> and Opera is totally crazy about CDATA
  326. # [17:52] <Philip`> so attempting to use it in HTML seems very risky :-(
  327. # [17:54] <zcorpan> whey. in firefox "<![" is ended at the first "]>"
  328. # [17:55] <zcorpan> seems opera does too
  329. # [17:55] <gsnedders> can someone summarise the conflation of issues or convergence of interests thread?
  330. # [17:55] <zcorpan> except when it also matches "<![cdata["
  331. # [17:56] <Philip`> In Firefox it's ended at the first > after the first ]
  332. # [17:56] <Philip`> Opera counts the nesting level of square brackets
  333. # [17:56] <zcorpan> -_-
  334. # [17:57] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%20%3C%21%5B1%20%5B2%20%5B3%20%5B4%204%5D%3E%203%5D%3E%20%5B3%20%5B4%204%5D%3E%203%5D%3E%202%5D%3E%201%5D%3E%200%3E%20y
  335. # [17:58] <Philip`> It does the same for <![CDATA[... vs anything else that's <!... and isn't <!--...
  336. # [17:58] <Philip`> except if it's <![CDATA[ then it puts a #cdata-section in the DOM
  337. # [17:59] <Philip`> and it strips the last two characters before the closing >, regardless of whether they're ]] or not
  338. # [17:59] <Philip`> ( http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21%5Bcdata%5Babc%5D%5D%5Bxyz%5Dpqr%3E )
  339. # [18:02] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@71.250.56.243)
  340. # [18:18] <Philip`> I was wondering if you could do something like <style>svg\:svg { display: none }</style> to hide stuff from non-namespace-aware visual browsers, but it looks like IE applies that style to an <svg:svg> even though the parsed name has no colon
  341. # [18:20] <zcorpan> @namespace h "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; h|svg\:svg { display:none }
  342. # [18:22] <zcorpan> or just *|svg\:svg
  343. # [18:23] <Philip`> Ah, that does what I was looking for
  344. # [18:24] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  345. # [18:26] <Philip`> I wonder what <div xmlns:a=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml xmlns:b=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml style=background:red a:style=background:green a:style=background:blue> would do
  346. # [18:26] <zcorpan> it would have a red background
  347. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: the attributes are in the null namespace
  348. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: not the XHTML one
  349. # [18:28] <Philip`> Oh
  350. # [18:30] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  351. # [18:33] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cstyle%3Ehead%20%7B%20background%3A%20yellow%20%7D%20body%20%7B%20background%3A%20blue%20%7D%3C/style%3E%0D%0A%3Chead%3E%3Cx%3Ax%3EIn%20head%3C/x%3Ax%3E%3Cbody%3EIn%20body is neat in IE
  352. # [18:33] <Philip`> Oh, that only works in quirks mode
  353. # [18:43] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  354. # [18:43] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  355. # [18:43] <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, DanC
  356. # [18:43] <DanC> oops; did I not book one?
  357. # [18:46] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233)
  358. # [18:46] <DanC> agenda + Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z
  359. # [18:46] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  360. # [18:47] <DanC> agenda + # next meeting, regular meeting times
  361. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  362. # [18:47] <DanC> agenda 2 = next meeting, regular meeting times
  363. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 2 replaced
  364. # [18:47] <DanC> agenda + Email traffic shaping, working style
  365. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  366. # [18:47] <DanC> agenda + toward release of Design Principles
  367. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  368. # [18:47] <DanC> agenda + Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update
  369. # [18:47] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  370. # [18:54] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  371. # [18:54] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
  372. # [18:54] <DanC> updates to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews are most welcome, everybody
  373. # [18:55] * DanC noodles on an automated indesx
  374. # [18:55] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  375. # [18:55] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T16-55-35
  376. # [18:56] <DanC> agenda + Test suite organization
  377. # [18:56] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  378. # [18:57] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0071.html
  379. # [18:57] <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has now started
  380. # [18:57] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
  381. # [18:57] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  382. # [18:57] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  383. # [18:57] <Zakim> +DanC
  384. # [19:00] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  385. # [19:00] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  386. # [19:00] <Zakim> + +49.251.280.aaaa
  387. # [19:00] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  388. # [19:00] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmiata, DanC, +49.251.280.aaaa
  389. # [19:00] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Julian
  390. # [19:00] <Zakim> +Julian; got it
  391. # [19:01] <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
  392. # [19:01] <Zakim> + +49.208.829.0.aabb
  393. # [19:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
  394. # [19:01] * Joins: maha (maha@82.207.140.17)
  395. # [19:01] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is maha
  396. # [19:01] <Zakim> +maha; got it
  397. # [19:02] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  398. # [19:02] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z" taken up [from DanC]
  399. # [19:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  400. # [19:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  401. # [19:02] <Zakim> +Mike
  402. # [19:02] <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-minutes minutes 19 July
  403. # [19:02] <DanC> (maha is Marcin Hanclik of Access)
  404. # [19:03] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  405. # [19:03] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike
  406. # [19:04] <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc
  407. # [19:04] <DanC> Zakim, aacc is Dave_Singer
  408. # [19:04] <Zakim> +Dave_Singer; got it
  409. # [19:05] * Joins: hasather (hasather@80.203.71.22)
  410. # [19:06] <DanC> regrets: Hickson
  411. # [19:06] * Joins: dsinger (daithesong@17.202.35.52)
  412. # [19:06] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  413. # [19:06] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC
  414. # [19:06] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  415. # [19:06] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Gregory_Rosmaita
  416. # [19:06] <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
  417. # [19:06] <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike
  418. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> heh
  419. # [19:06] <MikeSmith> yeah, I can scribe
  420. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> Scribe: MikeSmith
  421. # [19:07] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  422. # [19:07] <Zakim> agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up
  423. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> ScribeNick: MikeSmith
  424. # [19:08] <MikeSmith> DanC : Key thing is to pick a time that Chris Wilson can make, but don't have a good idea of his schedule right now ...
  425. # [19:08] * Lachy is here, can't phone in though
  426. # [19:09] * DanC waves to Lachy
  427. # [19:09] <DanC> any advice on a Seattle/OZ/Asia time, Lachy/
  428. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> DanC : Gregory, Marcin, this time seems to be good for you (because you've made it more than once) ...
  429. # [19:09] * oedipus lachy is the conference room closed or is it a telephony problem?
  430. # [19:09] * Joins: chaals (chaals@84.77.2.25)
  431. # [19:09] * chaals apologises for being late for telecon...
  432. # [19:09] <DanC> FYI, I'm going to "An Event Apart" in Chicago late in August
  433. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> DanC : [considering 16 August]
  434. # [19:09] * oedipus oedipus waves at chaals and tells him he's not really late
  435. # [19:10] * chaals zakim, code?
  436. # [19:10] * Zakim saw 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152) given for the conference code, chaals
  437. # [19:10] * Lachy no, I just can't stay long since I have to go to sleep soon
  438. # [19:10] <MikeSmith> DanC : I'll be at Event Apart, btw
  439. # [19:10] <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug
  440. # [19:10] * Lachy DanC it's currently 03:00 in Aus (UTC+10:00)
  441. # [19:10] * oedipus understood, lachy, do you have a suggestion for the asia/Oz call timing?
  442. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> [currently 02:10am in Japan]
  443. # [19:11] <Zakim> +??P10
  444. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> DanC : Any reason not to schedule next call for 16 August
  445. # [19:11] <chaals> zakim, ??p10 is me
  446. # [19:11] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
  447. # [19:11] * Lachy sure, about 6 hours earlier
  448. # [19:11] * oedipus plus one for 16 august
  449. # [19:11] <DanC> RESOLVED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug
  450. # [19:11] <MikeSmith> s/for 16 August/for 16 August?/
  451. # [19:12] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES]
  452. # [19:12] * RRSAgent records action 4
  453. # [19:12] * chaals points out to Lachy that he should not do /me for anything that should go into the log
  454. # [19:12] <DanC> note Lachy suggests a time 6 hours earlier for Seattle/OZ/Asia. I trust Chris W will read the record of this meeting
  455. # [19:13] * chaals wonders if we have a scribe, since i offered...
  456. # [19:13] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  457. # [19:13] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Email traffic shaping, working style" taken up [from DanC]
  458. # [19:13] * oedipus we do -- mike smith
  459. # [19:13] <MikeSmith> DanC : Hopefully, we will get an update from Chris Wilson, but lacking that, I will chair on the 16th
  460. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> DanC : Our strategy has been to reward the sort of e-mail I like, and ignore the rest ...
  461. # [19:14] <dsinger> I do wonder if we should have a separate low-volume list for organizational and other 'formal' emails
  462. # [19:14] <MikeSmith> ... but that has not proven satisfactory to a lot of people
  463. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> DanC : I have heard from lots of people, that yeah, the HTML working group [mailing list] is no fun to work with
  464. # [19:15] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  465. # [19:15] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike, Dave_Singer, chaals
  466. # [19:15] <MikeSmith> DanC : I will go around the table, as it were, [to ask for thoughts]
  467. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> oedipus : Getting people to conciously put things up on the e-mail-thread part of the Wiki ...
  468. # [19:16] <MikeSmith> DanC : Only works in practice if people actually do the work
  469. # [19:17] <DanC> agenda + definitions, accessibility, etc.
  470. # [19:17] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  471. # [19:17] <MikeSmith> oedipus : We are all talking around each other [still] instead of talking to each other ...
  472. # [19:18] <oedipus> working towards a common HTML WG vocabulary: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions
  473. # [19:18] <MikeSmith> DanC : I think lots of people usefully followed up [on the "formal complaint" thread]
  474. # [19:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  475. # [19:19] <MikeSmith> Julian : I think it was good that the topic has been raised ...
  476. # [19:19] <oedipus> q+
  477. # [19:19] * Zakim sees oedipus on the speaker queue
  478. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> ... although commenting on discussions that have taken place on IRC is [perhaps going off a bit?]
  479. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> Marcin comments
  480. # [19:20] <DanC> poll is any thoughs on this agendum, # Email traffic shaping, working style
  481. # [19:21] <DanC> q+ to respond to MikeSmith's suggestion of more focus
  482. # [19:21] * Zakim sees oedipus, DanC on the speaker queue
  483. # [19:21] <Lachy> personally, I think the formal complaint went too far, but I think it needs to be pointed out that there are people on both sides of the issues at fault (I took up the issue off list with some), each influencing the replies of the other and causing things to escalate
  484. # [19:22] <Zakim> + +1.218.340.aadd
  485. # [19:22] <oedipus> underlying problem is that there are 2 tracks of discussion -- W3C and WHAT WG; now that HTML5 been accepted into W3C process, shouldn't formal (on-list) conversations be conducted on public-html so as to avoid bifurcation of efforts and cowpaths; WHAT WG has every right to exist and conduct conversations, but when the development path of HTML is concerned, the normative discussion forum should be public-html
  486. # [19:22] <oedipus> q-
  487. # [19:22] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  488. # [19:22] * DanC Zakim, who's talking?
  489. # [19:22] * Zakim DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: maha (30%)
  490. # [19:22] * chaals wonders who joined
  491. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith I think we should put boundaries on the discussion on the list ...
  492. # [19:23] <Zakim> - +1.218.340.aadd
  493. # [19:23] <MikeSmith> ... for example, decide to limit the list discussion to just discussion of the interoperable behavior for existing elements ...
  494. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> ... and not discuss new elements nor discuss which elements should be conformant and which not
  495. # [19:24] <MikeSmith> dsinger : I think it would not be out of line for the chairs to call people out if they are intemperate
  496. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> ... in their comments on the list
  497. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> ... and I think it would be useful to have a separate list [for certain kinds of messages] ...
  498. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> ... because it's hard to tell [which messages to read] ...
  499. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> chaals : I think it would be good for the chairs to be more active on the list ...
  500. # [19:26] <MikeSmith> ... [good to] reduce the overall volume of messages on the list ...
  501. # [19:26] <DanC> (hmm... did I start a FAQ? I was thinking about putting some advice in http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists ... )
  502. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> ... [encourage people to] treat each other with the kind of politeness and respect [that encourages further discussion on the list] ...
  503. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> ... people are terrified by the [current] volume of mail on the list ...
  504. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> ... opportunity for the chairs ...
  505. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> ... people need to realize -- that large parts of the community won't participate if they perceive the list environment as unfriendly ...
  506. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> ... and that will be our loss [because we want them to participate] ...
  507. # [19:29] <DanC> q+ to respond to announcement of drafts, and noodle on summaries of cvs/svn logs
  508. # [19:29] * Zakim sees DanC on the speaker queue
  509. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> [chaals discussing value of having a separate list for announcements]
  510. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> ... having that separate list would make it more reasonable way for people to follow the work of the group ...
  511. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> oedipus : Anything that is normative should occur on public-html ...
  512. # [19:31] * Quits: laplink (link@193.157.66.214) (Quit: Leaving)
  513. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> ... because no everybody is subscribed to the whatwg list ...
  514. # [19:31] <MikeSmith> DanC : I assume our official mechanism is public-html ...
  515. # [19:32] <oedipus> plus one on announcement list
  516. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> ... on the other hand, there is actually HTML discussion taking place all over the place
  517. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> DanC : An announcement list [might] be a good idea ...
  518. # [19:32] <chaals> s/having that separate list/having that separate list and using it to make periodic (fortnight or monthly) announcements of a draft with some collected change notice/
  519. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> DanC : I read a minority of the e-mail ...
  520. # [19:32] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html
  521. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> ... there are long threads that go off into the weeds ...
  522. # [19:33] <dsinger> indicate that you are willing to admonish if asked PRIVATELY
  523. # [19:33] <dsinger> ?
  524. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> ... I expect other people to read those ...
  525. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> ... I read a much as I would expect a normal working-group member would read ...
  526. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> DanC : As far as taking people to task, Karl has been doing that ...
  527. # [19:34] <chaals> q+
  528. # [19:34] * Zakim sees DanC, chaals on the speaker queue
  529. # [19:34] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.81.18)
  530. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> ... e-mailing them directly, Cc'ing Chris and me
  531. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> DanC : Any ideas about the announcements mailing list?
  532. # [19:34] <Lachy> I manage to read less than half of the volume on public-html
  533. # [19:34] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.32.80) (Ping timeout)
  534. # [19:34] <DanC> ACTION DanC: set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals
  535. # [19:34] * RRSAgent records action 5
  536. # [19:34] * tH_ is now known as tH
  537. # [19:35] <MikeSmith> chaals : Would also be useful to send out info about resolutions on the "announcements" list ...
  538. # [19:35] * DanC is hearing a bit of break-up from chaals
  539. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> ... [case of people reading on the announcements list in order to figure out what's happened on the list during a particular period of time]
  540. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> DanC : Summaries of changes is something I think others can help Hixie wie
  541. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> s/wie/with/
  542. # [19:36] <MikeSmith> DanC, I do
  543. # [19:37] <DanC> ack danc
  544. # [19:37] <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to respond to MikeSmith's suggestion of more focus and to respond to announcement of drafts, and noodle on summaries of cvs/svn logs
  545. # [19:37] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  546. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith : There were no commits to the spec during July
  547. # [19:37] <MikeSmith> ... since June 28
  548. # [19:37] <dsinger> the announcement list should be moderated, by the way (if possible)
  549. # [19:38] <dsinger> and though I hate reply-to headers, if there is one, reply-to public-html
  550. # [19:38] <MikeSmith> DanC : [as far as shaping discussion], When you [explicitly] tell people to not think about elephants, they tend to think about elephants
  551. # [19:40] * chaals q+
  552. # [19:40] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  553. # [19:41] <MikeSmith> chaals : Saying, what exists in HTML 4, what exists in HTML5 [as limits for the current discussions] ...
  554. # [19:42] * Joins: laplink (link@193.157.66.214)
  555. # [19:42] <MikeSmith> ... saying, otherwise, identify the problem [that you are trying to address in your message]
  556. # [19:42] <Julian> q+
  557. # [19:42] * Zakim sees chaals, Julian on the speaker queue
  558. # [19:43] <DanC> ack chaals
  559. # [19:43] * Zakim sees Julian on the speaker queue
  560. # [19:44] <MikeSmith> ... saying, we are really trying to spec out HTML5 [and not digress into discussions about what is not implemented or not likely to be implemented any time soon] ...
  561. # [19:45] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  562. # [19:45] <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, DanC
  563. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> DanC thinks it's good suggestion to talk about limiting discussion ...
  564. # [19:45] <DanC> ack Julian
  565. # [19:45] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  566. # [19:45] <MikeSmith> ... but hasn't figured out how best to do it yet
  567. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> Julian : Helpful to have a statement of things that are clearly out of scope for the group ...
  568. # [19:46] <MikeSmith> DanC : Anything that is not in the charter is out of scope.
  569. # [19:47] <MikeSmith> ... for example, transport protocols are clearly not in scope
  570. # [19:47] <DanC> agenda + scope, vector graphics, use cases for canvas
  571. # [19:47] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  572. # [19:47] * chaals agrees that vector graphics is effectively in the charter, thanks to Apple making canvas part of HTML as she are spoke
  573. # [19:47] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  574. # [19:47] <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  575. # [19:48] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 5
  576. # [19:48] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update" taken up [from DanC]
  577. # [19:48] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists
  578. # [19:49] <MikeSmith> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go
  579. # [19:49] * RRSAgent records action 6
  580. # [19:50] <MikeSmith> DanC : 50 minutes into a 90 minute meeting today
  581. # [19:50] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
  582. # [19:50] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16
  583. # [19:50] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
  584. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> DanC : Spot checking ...
  585. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... anybody know if Lee has reviewed the Introduction?
  586. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... looks like Debi Orton has ...
  587. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... about Document Object Model ...
  588. # [19:51] * chaals looks
  589. # [19:51] <MikeSmith> ... Peter seems to have reviewed that ...
  590. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> ... has Lee reviewed it? ...
  591. # [19:52] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/1048.html Detailed review of Section 1. Introduction. (Thursday, 26 July)
  592. # [19:52] <MikeSmith> DanC : As long as people "detailed review" (as people seem to have done), [it's helpful] ...
  593. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> s/As long as people/As long as people put/
  594. # [19:53] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#scope
  595. # [19:53] <DanC> "following items in scope"
  596. # [19:53] <MikeSmith> DanC : [discussing <canvas> within scope of charter]
  597. # [19:54] <MikeSmith> chaals cites relevant part of charter
  598. # [19:54] <DanC> "A serialized form of such a language using a defined, non-XML syntax compatible with the 'classic HTML' parsers of existing Web browsers."
  599. # [19:54] <DanC> and 3 existing web browsers grok canvas
  600. # [19:54] <DanC> hmm...
  601. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> DanC : Who's signed up to review the canvas spec?
  602. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> ... Ben Boyle and Sander ...
  603. # [19:55] <MikeSmith> ... doesn't seem that Ben has reviewed it yet (though he has reviewed other parts) ...
  604. # [19:56] <Sander> I'm still working on it, too
  605. # [19:56] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  606. # [19:56] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Julian, maha, Mike, Dave_Singer, chaals
  607. # [19:56] <MikeSmith> DanC : Chris Wilson says that MS will complete their detailed reviews by end of August
  608. # [19:56] <dsinger> no comments from me on detailed spec. reviews
  609. # [19:57] <DanC> Gregory: this has been a useful exercise.
  610. # [19:57] <DanC> Mike: definitely
  611. # [19:57] <MikeSmith> oedipus : Detailed review has been one of the most fruitful [uses of the list]
  612. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> chaals : been trying to a review of accessibility features
  613. # [19:58] <MikeSmith> s/trying to a /trying to do a/
  614. # [19:58] * DanC would appreciate it if chaals would admit as much in http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/tasks83/
  615. # [19:59] * DanC q?
  616. # [19:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  617. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> DanC : speaking of schedule, my goal for first public working draft of the HTML5 spec ...
  618. # [19:59] <MikeSmith> ... is that each part of the spec be read [carefully] by a member of the group ...
  619. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... [and that we can document that] ...
  620. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... that we have read, not [necessarily] that we like it ...
  621. # [20:00] <Zakim> -Mike
  622. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> ... first public working draft [FPWD] by September
  623. # [20:00] * DanC lost mike?
  624. # [20:00] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  625. # [20:00] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  626. # [20:00] <Zakim> +Mike
  627. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> DanC : yeah
  628. # [20:01] <MikeSmith> [still not back on]
  629. # [20:01] <DanC> Zakim, drop mike
  630. # [20:01] <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
  631. # [20:01] <Zakim> -Mike
  632. # [20:01] <DanC> we got voicemail
  633. # [20:01] * MikeSmith says Zakim lies
  634. # [20:02] * MikeSmith will try once more
  635. # [20:02] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  636. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  637. # [20:02] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  638. # [20:02] <Zakim> +Mike
  639. # [20:02] <chaals> DanC: SUmary of CVS commits is a good thing to do.
  640. # [20:02] <DanC> DanC: I'll try to get regular summaries of spec commits; Mike has agreed to do it once
  641. # [20:02] <chaals> s/SUmary/Summary/
  642. # [20:02] <DanC> Zakim, close this item
  643. # [20:02] <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
  644. # [20:02] <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  645. # [20:02] <Zakim> 4. toward release of Design Principles [from DanC]
  646. # [20:02] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  647. # [20:02] <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  648. # [20:02] * chaals hands scribing back to mike
  649. # [20:02] <chaals> scribe: Mike
  650. # [20:02] <MikeSmith> Scribenick: MikeSmith
  651. # [20:02] <chaals> scribeNick: MikeSmith
  652. # [20:03] <DanC> . ACTION: ChrisW to ping mjs re pending comments on design principles
  653. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> DanC : I still have not synced up with Maciej, and last telcon, Chris said he would take this up
  654. # [20:03] <DanC> he did make some progress
  655. # [20:03] <DanC> . ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks
  656. # [20:03] <MikeSmith> DanC : But I have not heard back from Maciej myself
  657. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> DanC : Does anybody know if Gavin has completed that action?
  658. # [20:04] <chaals> [Yes, issue...]
  659. # [20:04] <MikeSmith> oedipus : Surveys get lost in the volume of mail
  660. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> DanC : I send little enough mail that I expect everybody to read anything I send.
  661. # [20:05] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/
  662. # [20:05] <MikeSmith> wfm
  663. # [20:05] <dsinger> works for me
  664. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> DanC : Does that survey seem like a worthwhile exercise for the group?
  665. # [20:06] <oedipus> even i can get to the survey
  666. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> chaals : Yes, but should be clear [that it is to a draft of the design principles].
  667. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> DanC : Looking at diffs since April 30th
  668. # [20:07] <dsinger> universalaccess is a conflation of two defined terms: accessibility and universality
  669. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> DanC : question about design principle related to accessibility
  670. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> dsinger : perhaps not a good choice of words for a design-principle document
  671. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> s/design-principle/design-principles/
  672. # [20:09] <MikeSmith> DanC : I could just issue that survey in its current untidy state.
  673. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> DanC : Question 6 is sort of about the end-game ...
  674. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> DanC : Anne is sufficiently available for my purposes.
  675. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> ... but I have been struggling to sync up with Maciej ...
  676. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> [discussion about Maciej's availability; appears that Maciej may be in a period of time where he's working on other things and may not be available much for a while]
  677. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> DanC : If we can't do a first working draft of the Design Principles August [that is going to be a problem]
  678. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> s/Design Principles August/Design Principles doc in August/
  679. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  680. # [20:14] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  681. # [20:14] <DanC> ACTION DanC: take input on the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and issue it
  682. # [20:14] * RRSAgent records action 7
  683. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
  684. # [20:15] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  685. # [20:15] * DanC q?
  686. # [20:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  687. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> DanC : I think I can add a survey question: Do you want to play an editor role?
  688. # [20:15] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  689. # [20:15] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Test suite organization" taken up [from DanC]
  690. # [20:15] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
  691. # [20:16] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform
  692. # [20:16] <dsinger> maciej should be on the call in a few minutes
  693. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> DanC : We have dozens of people who have volunteered to help with work on test suites
  694. # [20:17] * DanC hears some typing
  695. # [20:17] * DanC Zakim, who's talking?
  696. # [20:17] * Zakim DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (25%), DanC (19%)
  697. # [20:17] <oedipus> UAAG Test Suite: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
  698. # [20:17] <MikeSmith> oedipus : [mentions user-agent accessibility guidelines]
  699. # [20:17] <oedipus> UAAG WG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA
  700. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> oedipus : I'm an active member of that group
  701. # [20:18] <oedipus> UAAG 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10
  702. # [20:18] <chaals> [team contact: Jan Richards (actually works for U of Toronto), Chair: Jim Allan]
  703. # [20:18] <DanC> EARL is cool; see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results
  704. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> DanC : I think EARL is really cool
  705. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> ... we used it in the GRDDL WG ...
  706. # [20:19] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  707. # [20:19] <Zakim> agendum 7. "definitions, accessibility, etc." taken up [from DanC]
  708. # [20:19] <oedipus> reference document - accessibility dependencies and resources listed on the wiki at: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityDependencies
  709. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> DanC : I will start by talking about a observed pattern I see ...
  710. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> ... agreeing on definitions is the whole job ...
  711. # [20:19] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.105.80)
  712. # [20:19] <MikeSmith> ... of working on standards ...
  713. # [20:20] <oedipus> common working group vocabulary wiki page: http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions
  714. # [20:20] <mjs> hey everyone
  715. # [20:20] <mjs> meeting still going?
  716. # [20:20] <MikeSmith> ... if anybody thinks, We'll just take a couple of weeks to work on agreement about definitions, well [it's not reasonable to expect that to get done quickly]
  717. # [20:21] * MikeSmith mjs : yep
  718. # [20:21] * chaals waves to mjs - meeting still going
  719. # [20:21] * MikeSmith mjs : can you dial in?
  720. # [20:21] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML
  721. # [20:21] <MikeSmith> Zakim, code?
  722. # [20:21] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MikeSmith
  723. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> oedipus : purpose of that page is to [achieve consensus about terms]
  724. # [20:22] <mjs> all righty
  725. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> ... a lot of us talk around each others using the same terms [but not using them in the same way]
  726. # [20:22] <MikeSmith> DanC : What about actual content?
  727. # [20:23] <Zakim> + +1.415.595.aaee
  728. # [20:23] <chaals> zakim, aaee is mjs
  729. # [20:23] <Zakim> +mjs; got it
  730. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> oedipus : I think "fallback" is used in the spec some place.
  731. # [20:23] <DanC> Zakim, aaee is mjs
  732. # [20:23] <Zakim> sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee'
  733. # [20:23] <MikeSmith> ... can others help me find that?
  734. # [20:24] <chaals> s/oedipus :/DanC:/
  735. # [20:24] <DanC> "fallback content: content that is to be used when the external resource cannot be used (e.g. because it is of an unsupported format)." -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
  736. # [20:24] <MikeSmith> DanC : "fallback content" is bolded in the spec
  737. # [20:25] * chaals notes to DanC that he filled in the tasks survey and now has something that smells unpleasantly like an action item to meet the goal expressed...
  738. # [20:25] * DanC tx chaals
  739. # [20:26] <DanC> Zakim, take up item design
  740. # [20:26] <Zakim> agendum 4. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  741. # [20:26] <MikeSmith> DanC : [talking with Maciej]
  742. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> mjs : I've been very busy
  743. # [20:27] <MikeSmith> ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principle by Thursday next week.
  744. # [20:27] * RRSAgent records action 8
  745. # [20:28] <MikeSmith> s/about design principle/about design principles/
  746. # [20:28] <DanC> ADJOURN.
  747. # [20:28] <Zakim> -mjs
  748. # [20:28] <dsinger> thanks
  749. # [20:28] <Zakim> -Julian
  750. # [20:28] <Zakim> -Dave_Singer
  751. # [20:28] <Zakim> -chaals
  752. # [20:28] <Julian> Bye.
  753. # [20:28] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  754. # [20:28] <oedipus> aloha!
  755. # [20:28] <maha> bye bye
  756. # [20:29] * Quits: dsinger (daithesong@17.202.35.52) (Quit: Leaving)
  757. # [20:29] <Zakim> -maha
  758. # [20:29] * chaals thanks everyone
  759. # [20:29] <Zakim> -Mike
  760. # [20:29] * chaals bye folks
  761. # [20:29] * Parts: chaals (chaals@84.77.2.25)
  762. # [20:29] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  763. # [20:29] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  764. # [20:29] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  765. # [20:29] <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
  766. # [20:29] <Zakim> 7. definitions, accessibility, etc. [from DanC]
  767. # [20:29] <Zakim> 8. scope, vector graphics, use cases for canvas [from DanC]
  768. # [20:29] <DanC> I guess we discussed 8 a little bit. not much
  769. # [20:30] <MikeSmith> Chair: Dan Connolly
  770. # [20:31] <MikeSmith> Meeting: HTML WG phone conference
  771. # [20:32] * Quits: maha (maha@82.207.140.17) (Quit: $mahaquit)
  772. # [20:32] <ROBOd> i have a (not so silly?) question
  773. # [20:32] <ROBOd> where should I now send my reviews? to WHATWG? to HTML WG? why should I pick one over the other?
  774. # [20:33] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  775. # [20:33] <MikeSmith> Regrets- Hickson
  776. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> Regrets+ Hixie
  777. # [20:34] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
  778. # [20:34] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
  779. # [20:34] * Quits: Julian (chatzilla@217.91.35.233) (Ping timeout)
  780. # [20:34] <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC, in HTML_WG()1:00PM
  781. # [20:34] <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has ended
  782. # [20:34] <Zakim> Attendees were DanC, +49.251.280.aaaa, Julian, +49.208.829.0.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, maha, Mike, +1.408.996.aacc, Dave_Singer, chaals, +1.218.340.aadd, +1.415.595.aaee, mjs
  783. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, stop logging
  784. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', MikeSmith. Try /msg RRSAgent help
  785. # [20:35] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, bye
  786. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> I see 8 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  787. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to ping mjs re design principles [1]
  788. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T17-22-44
  789. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next two weeks [2]
  790. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T17-25-53
  791. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES] [3]
  792. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-irc#T18-34-14
  793. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time [CONTINUES] [4]
  794. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-12-23
  795. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [5]
  796. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-35-05
  797. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [6]
  798. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T17-49-18
  799. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to take input on the survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and issue it [7]
  800. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T18-14-57
  801. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principle by Thursday next week. [8]
  802. # [20:35] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc#T18-28-02
  803. # [20:35] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
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  806. # [20:54] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc
  807. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> cleaned-up minutes for today's phone conference are at:
  808. # [20:55] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html
  809. # [20:57] <anne> a number of times I see "scribe: ..." which isn't really useful
  810. # [20:57] <anne> given that three people scribed
  811. # [20:58] <MikeSmith> anne : actually, I was the only one who scribed
  812. # [20:59] <oedipus> DanC added some comments that he wanted on record in public
  813. # [20:59] <anne> in that case something else is wrong, or I may have misread something
  814. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> me does :%s/scribe/MikeSmith/g in vim
  815. # [20:59] <MikeSmith> oedipus : which comments, exactly?
  816. # [20:59] <oedipus> RRSAgent was instructed that MikeSmith was scribe and knew his scribnick
  817. # [21:00] <oedipus> MikeSmith: i know he documented one or 2 of my comments in the IRC log, and may have done the same for chaals
  818. # [21:00] <oedipus> oedipus = Gregory J. Rosmaita
  819. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> oedipus : whatever he commented on in IRC is in the minutes
  820. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> I didn't excise anything
  821. # [21:01] <mjs> anne: I'd like to use the wiki to track Design Principles feedback, does that seem ok?
  822. # [21:01] <anne> sure
  823. # [21:01] <MikeSmith> at least I did not excise any of Dan's comments
  824. # [21:01] <oedipus> right, DanC's notes should show up in the log and draft minutes as contributions from DanC with a couple of Gregory: blah blah blahs in it
  825. # [21:01] <mjs> anne: I want to remove the actual design principles doc from <http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples>, break up the other content there into separate issues, and encourage people who raise new issues to also link their issues in the wiki
  826. # [21:02] <oedipus> mjs that's a good idea -- the wiki page is getting very unwieldy
  827. # [21:03] <anne> mjs, k, so you will start editing the doc?
  828. # [21:04] <anne> oh I see, it's in the minutes :)
  829. # [21:04] <mjs> anne: I would like you to continue as co-editor if you don't mind
  830. # [21:04] <mjs> but I know you are working on a lot of other documents too
  831. # [21:05] <anne> I can do edits now and then, no problem
  832. # [21:05] <anne> not sure if I've the bandwidth to chase things down
  833. # [21:06] <mjs> I think I can handle tracking and recording the feedback
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  836. # [21:19] <anne> Either I'm missing something or what Sam proposed on his blog is what we tried with Opera and it didn't work...
  837. # [21:19] <Philip`> How did it not work?
  838. # [21:19] <Philip`> (It doesn't seem far from what IE does already)
  839. # [21:19] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@71.250.56.243) (Quit: oedipus)
  840. # [21:20] <anne> Lots of pages broke. Likely because they didn't expect us to support namespaces.
  841. # [21:20] <anne> Philip`, also, does IE support xmlns everywhere? Or just on <html>?
  842. # [21:21] <Philip`> Only on <html>
  843. # [21:21] <Philip`> (and it doesn't do namespaced attributes at all)
  844. # [21:23] <anne> I'll guess I just wait and see. I'm not really convinced by the use cases and aligning parsing in browsers first seems a more worthy goal.
  845. # [21:24] <anne> Most implementors don't dare to touch their HTML parser implementation. I doubt many are jumping to add namespace support to it. You never know of course, but still.
  846. # [21:25] <Philip`> The whole HTML5 parsing algorithm won't be much use if nobody is willing to actually implement it
  847. # [21:28] <anne> There's some movement
  848. # [21:47] * DanC edits the minutes for clarity...
  849. # [21:48] <anne> I probably can't make the next telcon as I'll be in Spain that day
  850. # [21:48] <anne> fwiw
  851. # [21:48] <anne> not sure about the one after either
  852. # [21:50] * DanC notes anne's regrets in il16 v1.36
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  856. # [22:07] <Hixie> re the mention of whatwg in the meeting earlier -- there's actually very little discussion happening in the whatwg list (at least relative to the public-html list) - there's more discussion going on in blogs than in whatwg's list in fact.
  857. # [22:08] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  858. # [22:09] <Hixie> also, regarding "no everybody is subscribed to the whatwg list" -- whatwg list has 799 members, public-html has 487. i haven't checked what the overlap is, but if anything the argument would be that not everyone is on public-html :-)
  859. # [22:10] <Hixie> (personally i read all the e-mail to both lists)
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  862. # [22:18] * DanC committed http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html 2007/08/02 20:08:00
  863. # [22:21] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-xh - "It was agreed that an enhancement to HTML to accomodate XML blocks is necessary. ... the group decided on a vote of 10 for and 1 abstension (none against) to use an element called XML. This must be added to a future version of HTML."
  864. # [22:21] <mjs> I'm actually starting to think an <xml> element might not be a bad idea
  865. # [22:21] <mjs> the main problem is that I think in IE the content never renders
  866. # [22:22] <mjs> but parsing as XML inside an HTML element named <xml> is relatively unlikely to be a compat issue
  867. # [22:22] <mjs> for existing content
  868. # [22:22] <mjs> though it could still lead to content that does really broken things in non-IE legacy browsers
  869. # [22:22] <DanC> wild... folks still remember that May 1998 NOTE-xh ... did I really not object to an <xml> element?
  870. # [22:23] <anne> you were an editor...
  871. # [22:23] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms766512.aspx refers to that note
  872. # [22:23] * anne wonders how errors are handled with
  873. # [22:23] <DanC> I wish the party that abstained was identified; I suspect it was me
  874. # [22:24] <anne> whoa, IE just makes it a new document
  875. # [22:24] <anne> the element doesn't even turn up in the DOM it seems
  876. # [22:24] <anne> using the Live DOM Viewer anyway
  877. # [22:24] <Philip`> http://www.waterfrontrecords.com/ - "<xml id="142"><menu></menu></xml>" - that looks useful
  878. # [22:25] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
  879. # [22:30] <gsnedders> DanC: the minutes list Hickson and Hixie as regrets. One will do.
  880. # [22:30] <mjs> if IE makes it a separate document then it's probably not suitable
  881. # [22:30] <Philip`> You have to use the element's XMLDocument property to get at the data
  882. # [22:31] <DanC> fixed in 1.9, gsnedders
  883. # [22:31] <gsnedders> only took me two days to catch up with the WG having been away for just under two weeks…
  884. # [22:33] <Philip`> The MSDN HTML pages are quite depressing
  885. # [22:34] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531076.aspx - namespaced custom elements for animated flying text!
  886. # [22:34] <Philip`> Things do seem to have improved a bit in the decade since they wrote that
  887. # [22:35] <anne> I like <HTML XMLNS:FOOBAR>
  888. # [22:35] <anne> no value whatsoever in some of the samples
  889. # [22:37] <Philip`> <HTML XMLNS:MY> <STYLE> @media all { MY\:JUSTIFY { text-align:justify; width:500 } } </STYLE> - what's wrong with 'class'?
  890. # [22:37] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@81.132.175.22) (Quit: gsnedders)
  891. # [22:37] <Philip`> (except that it would have presumably worked in other web browsers)
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  893. # [22:39] * DanC waves to hyatt
  894. # [22:39] <hyatt> hi
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  904. # Session Close: Fri Aug 03 00:00:00 2007

The end :)