/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-04 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 04 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  16. # [01:41] <Philip`> If you reverse engineer something that was reverse engineered, does that count as forward engineering?
  17. # [02:01] <zcorpan> Philip`: no
  18. # [02:04] <Philip`> Hmm, maybe browsers are in some weird quantum state where if you do half a turn twice then you end up opposite to where you started
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  30. # [03:38] <Philip`> Does the latest WebKit crash on data:text/html,<canvas id=c></canvas><body onload="document.getElementById('c').getContext('2d').drawImage(null, 0, 0)"> ?
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  35. # [04:27] <Philip`> Oh, looks like WebKit is fixed now
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  83. # [15:43] <Lachy> I don't get the Distributed Extensibility thread. Is Sam just proposing the addition of XML namespace syntax to HTML, but under a different name?
  84. # [15:46] <anne> I believe he wants xmlns:foo to work on elements
  85. # [15:47] <zcorpan> for xlink:href to work in svg it needs to work on attributes as well
  86. # [15:49] <anne> yeah, sorry; I meant that he isn't proposing that xmlns= works
  87. # [15:51] <Lachy> oh. I thought he was aware of the IE compatibility issues with that. Anything we define for that would have to match IE exactly
  88. # [15:53] <Philip`> IE doesn't seem to be particularly bad in how it handles namespaces in HTML
  89. # [15:53] <anne> it was also previously pointed out that an attempt to support namespaces by Opera utterly failed
  90. # [15:55] <Philip`> I don't think it was pointed out why it failed (was it not enough like IE? was it too much like IE? do sites do browser-sniffing and assume non-IE doesn't do namespaces? etc), so there isn't enough information to be useful
  91. # [15:56] <anne> Hixie gave some information of the issues on the WHATWG list
  92. # [16:00] * Philip` can't find that information
  93. # [16:00] <zcorpan> btw, i use style="" when i include something that is temporary and needs a particular (non-reusable) style on a page instead of coming up with class names and include styles in the external style sheet, because doing the latter is more work and has issues with caching, and using <style scoped> doesn't work in current browsers and is more verbose
  94. # [16:01] <zcorpan> e.g. an announcement
  95. # [16:02] <zcorpan> (and i use p, em, strong for that, not <font>)
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  97. # [16:15] <hsivonen> Lachy: I suggest asking on-list what it is that is being proposed in the Distributed Extensibility thread.
  98. # [16:15] * Philip` sees http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-September/007294.html
  99. # [16:15] <Lachy> yeah, when I have time to finish reading it
  100. # [16:16] <Philip`> Looks like IE acts different with plain HTML documents vs setting innerHTML or whatever the Live DOM Viewer does
  101. # [16:16] <Philip`> which is evil
  102. # [16:17] <Philip`> so I'll have to fix my claims about what IE does :-(
  103. # [16:18] <Lachy> Philip`: search www-forms. There was some discussion of how IE handles namespaces.
  104. # [16:19] <zcorpan> Philip`: the live dom viewer does iframe.contentWindow.document.write()
  105. # [16:19] <zcorpan> (and ie isn't the only browser to do different things in that context vs loading a real resource)
  106. # [16:20] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/mid/44FD91FE.1090805@lachy.id.au - I had this one highlighted in my archive, though I think there's others with more details
  107. # [16:27] <zcorpan> it seems Leif Halvard Silli is making the pokemon test with for/id and headers/id
  108. # [16:28] <zcorpan> ignoring whether or not tables should or shouldn't be used, for/id is needed when you have the label in one cell and control in another
  109. # [16:29] <zcorpan> having the control outside the label can also have some styling advantages
  110. # [16:29] <zcorpan> (and vice versa)
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  112. # [16:33] <Lachy> I didn't get what Leif wants. Did he just not realise that <label for=""> hasn't been dropped?
  113. # [16:34] <zcorpan> no, he realised that it wasn't dropped and then wonders why it wasn't dropped when headers was dropped
  114. # [16:34] <zcorpan> (or why headers was dropped when for wasn't)
  115. # [16:35] <zcorpan> (aiui, anyway)
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  118. # [17:14] <anne> for/id is included at least because WF2 is a superset of HTML4/XHTML1 and not a rewrite
  119. # [17:15] <anne> as far as WF2 is concerned no other reason is needed
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  122. # [17:44] <anne> http://html60.chat.ru/site/html60/en/author/index_eng.htm
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  126. # [18:22] <ROBOd> anne: html 6.2 will soon make html 5 obsolete :)
  127. # [18:25] * anne thought XHTML 2 would do that
  128. # [18:27] <anne> oh, http://html6.by.ru/site/html60/en/author/index_eng.htm works on 6.3
  129. # [18:27] <ROBOd> looks like we have another competitor :), it's HTML 6
  130. # [18:27] <anne> http://html60.land.ru/site/html60/en/author/index_eng.htm also does 6.3
  131. # [18:27] <anne> almost looks like some type of search engine scam
  132. # [18:28] <ROBOd> yeah, i believed that as well. but i now have doubts
  133. # [18:29] <ROBOd> seeing his emails on the mailing lists. he's not conducting any scam (iianm). he's just .... Dimitry Turin
  134. # [18:29] <ROBOd> he seems the same on the site, and on the MLs
  135. # [18:29] <anne> there's more than a single site however
  136. # [18:30] <ROBOd> yeah, i know
  137. # [18:30] <ROBOd> that's due to his "philosophy": "Any man can completely gratisly copy any article of this project (or project wholly) to his server and to register it in any search server, to print in any book, newspaper or magazine."
  138. # [18:31] <anne> Philip`, I suppose we need a semi-live-dom-viewer that serves the input through a server...
  139. # [18:31] <ROBOd> he wants to advertise, to let the world know his "novation technology in Web"
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  147. # [19:22] <Philip`> anne: Something like that would be quite useful
  148. # [19:39] <Philip`> Looks like document.write('<x:y>') implicitly declares namespace 'x' in the document, and setting innerHTML implicitly declares one in the scope of that HTML fragment, and writing <x:y> in the HTML (without xmlns:x) acts like a non-namespaced unrecognised tag, so IE is quite crazy
  149. # [19:45] <Philip`> (like in http://lachy.id.au/dev/2006/09/custom-tags, though the innerHTML implicit declaration apparently doesn't affect any future tags from the HTML source)
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  152. # [20:53] <Philip`> "I think we are lucky that Apple didn't use a prefix or a separate namespace for canvas" - are we unlucky that Mozilla is using a prefix on their canvas text-drawing API?
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  154. # [21:24] <zcorpan> Philip`: mozilla should come to the table with a proposal
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  156. # [21:30] * Philip` should try using it for text in his multiplayer Canvex to see if it actually works alright in practice
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  160. # [23:05] <zcorpan> s/content attribute/markup attribute/ would perhaps reduce confusion
  161. # [23:11] <Philip`> That sounds odd if document.createElement('x').setAttribute('y', 'z') would set the markup attribute despite there being no markup involved at all
  162. # [23:12] <zcorpan> true
  163. # [23:12] <zcorpan> perhaps just "attribute" for HTML and XML attribute and always use "DOM attribute" for DOM attribute
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  165. # [23:13] <zcorpan> (we have seen confusion about people not understanding that "fooBar attribute" is a DOM attribute)
  166. # [23:18] <zcorpan> which reminds me
  167. # [23:19] <Philip`> Is there a problem with calling DOM attributes 'properties'? I assume(?) they always map onto JS object properties, so confusing the two ideas wouldn't matter
  168. # [23:19] <zcorpan> ElementTraversal calls them properties
  169. # [23:19] <zcorpan> but they aren't really properties
  170. # [23:20] <zcorpan> all previous DOM specs call them attributes
  171. # [23:20] <zcorpan> and they're called attributes in IDL
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The end :)