/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-07 / end

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  11. # [00:35] * zcorpan gets annoyed about no-one using the term "deprecated" correctly
  12. # [00:35] * gsnedders deprecates en-x-zcorpan
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  14. # [00:35] <tH> the term "deprecated" has depreciated
  15. # [00:36] <zcorpan> tH: indeed
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  69. # [07:38] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-html40-mobile/
  70. # [07:39] <karl> "This document describes guidelines for content authors how to create HTML 4.0 contents to be acceptable to mobile devices as much as possible."
  71. # [07:39] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-compactHTML-19980209/
  72. # [07:40] <karl> Compact HTML for Small Information Appliances - The Internet infrastructure has been developed all over the world, and nowadays there are a variety of devices equipped with the Internet-access function, from TV sets to wireless cellular phones. The HyperText Markup Language (HTML) is widely accepted and spread as the standard of the WWW(World Wide Web) document format. The "Compact HTML" proposed here defines a subset of HTML for small information appliances
  73. # [07:40] <karl> such as smart phones, smart communicators, mobile PDAs, and etc. Such a certain level of HTML is strongly required as a guideline from the manufacturers of small information devices, service providers, carriers, and software developers.
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  82. # [08:15] <karl> http://ilmol.com/wp/2007/08/02/328/
  83. # [08:15] <karl> 조용히 진행되고 있는 HTML5
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  87. # [08:23] <hsivonen> The Google Translator results for that page are so weird that it is hard to know if the author wrote weird things or if the translator software put weird things in there.
  88. # [08:23] <karl> or that we are just weird ourselves
  89. # [08:25] <anne> yay, lots of new e-mail...
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  91. # [08:29] <karl> give me the man/woman who has created email so I can curse him/her
  92. # [08:29] <karl> "Ray Tomlinson" ?
  93. # [08:29] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Tomlinson
  94. # [08:35] <karl> What were the early uses of email?
  95. # [08:35] <karl> The early uses were not terribly different from the current uses: The exceptions are that there was only plain text in the messages and there was no SPAM.
  96. # [08:35] <karl> in http://openmap.bbn.com/~tomlinso/ray/firstemailframe.html
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  110. # [09:08] <anne> karl, in other words, it was much better :)
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  113. # [09:25] <karl> ;)
  114. # [09:26] <karl> I do not remember my first email spam. But I do remember my first usenet spam
  115. # [09:27] <karl> I have received the Cantor and Siegel message.
  116. # [09:42] <hsivonen> would be nice if Opera and Microsoft shared their experiences with namespaces in HTML
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  118. # [09:45] <anne> I remember a thread earlier on the WHATWG mailing list where Hixie cited several issues
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  120. # [09:49] <karl> at least Microsoft used it for HTML+TIME - http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533116.aspx
  121. # [09:49] <karl> http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-HTMLplusTIME
  122. # [09:49] <anne> I wonder if someone can persuade Apple and Mozilla to change their engines. I imagine that introducing namespace syntax will have lots of problems because some sites already use it heavily and do browser sniffing to provide Webkit, Gecko and Presto with different code than Trident... etc.
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  124. # [09:51] <karl> macromedia (now adobe) and compaq/dec were part of this note too
  125. # [09:52] <anne> Yeah, Microsoft supports it
  126. # [09:53] * karl is taking an example of the note and putting it Live Dom Viewer
  127. # [09:53] <karl> it in
  128. # [09:54] <anne> Note that namespace supports in IE differs for document.write() and normal document loading...
  129. # [09:54] * karl can't use IE
  130. # [09:54] <anne> Which is why we need a second live dom viewer prolly that serves content from a webpage
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  132. # [09:55] <karl> hmm interesting
  133. # [09:56] <karl> _fooattribute="something" is removed from the dom by safari
  134. # [09:56] <karl> oh no
  135. # [09:56] <karl> my bad
  136. # [09:56] <karl> it is mozilla engine which had something
  137. # [09:56] <karl> T:SEQ _moz-userdefined="" t:repeatdur="indefinite"
  138. # [09:56] <karl> * #text:
  139. # [09:57] * karl is dealing with two many windows open at the same time
  140. # [09:58] <karl> s/had/add/
  141. # [09:58] <karl> geeez coffee time
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  150. # [10:36] * zcorpan wonders if safari for iphone has an xml parser
  151. # [10:40] <karl> "Note: Safari on iPhone does not perform any code conversion, either by a proxy, or on the client. It renders pages as designed. It also does not render WML (Wireless Markup Language). It does support XHTML mobile profile document types and sites at .mobi domains." -- http://developer.apple.com/iphone/designingcontent.html
  152. # [10:40] <karl> though that doesn't say it is an xml parser
  153. # [10:41] <zcorpan> indeed
  154. # [10:45] <karl> hmmm possible
  155. # [10:45] <karl> http://iphone.fiveforty.net/wiki/index.php/Sample_Crash_Log
  156. # [10:45] <karl> 0x31097000 - 0x31127fff libxml2.2.dylib UUID (EB77B5D5553B41659DA3EABDFF5E990E) /usr/lib/libxml2.2.dylib
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  158. # [10:49] <hsivonen> the explicit support for XHTML-MP is interesting considering that Nokia felt a need to break a/x+x handling in S60 browser to deal with XHTML-MP legacy
  159. # [10:49] <hsivonen> (if the Nokia response on the WebKit bug is any indication)
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  161. # [10:57] <hsivonen> karl: the "vision" document is the one that tries to say things to sooth XML stake holders
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  163. # [11:05] <zcorpan> wow
  164. # [11:05] <zcorpan> <embed src href target>
  165. # [11:05] * zcorpan didn't know that
  166. # [11:06] <anne> ?
  167. # [11:07] <zcorpan> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/designingcontent.html
  168. # [11:07] <zcorpan> look for <embed
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  170. # [11:12] <zcorpan> you need an image in src, a video type in type="", a video in href="", and target=myself
  171. # [11:12] <zcorpan> this needs to be specced in html5
  172. # [11:13] <zcorpan> or is this just quicktime?
  173. # [11:13] <karl> the image is the still image for the video
  174. # [11:14] <anne> sounds like quicktime
  175. # [11:14] <zcorpan> couldn't be, then only src would be fetched
  176. # [11:14] <zcorpan> and href be passed to the image
  177. # [11:14] <zcorpan> which doesn't do anything
  178. # [11:15] <anne> why not? if images are served from a plugin
  179. # [11:15] <anne> (quicktime supports images)
  180. # [11:15] <karl> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/Conceptual/QTScripting_HTML/QTScripting_HTML_Document/chapter_1000_section_6.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001525-2-ApplicationsandExamples
  181. # [11:15] <zcorpan> ah
  182. # [11:15] <karl> in fact src is the movie
  183. # [11:16] <karl> and the href
  184. # [11:16] <karl> Specify a URL to load when the user clicks on the movie
  185. # [11:16] <karl> from http://developer.apple.com/documentation/QuickTime/Conceptual/QTScripting_HTML/QTScripting_HTML_Document/chapter_1000_section_5.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40001525-2-QuickTimeltEMBEDgtandltOBJECTgtParameters
  186. # [11:17] <karl> target Play movie in QuickTime Player, named frame, or replace current movie
  187. # [11:17] <karl> quicktimeplayer | TargetFrameName | myself
  188. # [11:18] <zcorpan> yeah, seems it's a QT thing indeed
  189. # [11:21] <zcorpan> but then the equivalent for <object> doesn't work
  190. # [11:22] <anne> with <param> it might, no?
  191. # [11:26] <zcorpan> nope... we don't pass images to QT with <object>
  192. # [11:26] <zcorpan> but do with <embed>, apparently
  193. # [11:27] <anne> oh, like that
  194. # [11:27] <anne> makes sense
  195. # [11:27] <zcorpan> yeah
  196. # [11:28] <karl> hehe
  197. # [11:28] <karl> Requirements on the future of HTML
  198. # [11:28] <karl> - XML compliance
  199. # [11:28] <karl> - strict DTD
  200. # [11:28] <karl> - toleration of bad markup
  201. # [11:28] <karl> - toleration of unknown tags
  202. # [11:28] <karl> - validation of markup
  203. # [11:28] <karl> - sophisticared editing tools
  204. # [11:28] <karl> - hand-editable HTML
  205. # [11:28] <karl> - inclusion of:
  206. # [11:28] <karl> - math
  207. # [11:28] <karl> - music
  208. # [11:28] <karl> - metadata
  209. # [11:28] <karl> - more (e.g., database integration requirements)
  210. # [11:28] <karl> - better accessibility
  211. # [11:28] <karl> - more forms
  212. # [11:28] <karl> - support for small/mobile devices
  213. # [11:28] <anne> http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/
  214. # [11:29] <karl> from http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/HTML-Future-minutes.html Future of HTML circa 1998
  215. # [11:30] <anne> apart from math and music and editing tools we're there
  216. # [11:30] <anne> actually, music is covered
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  218. # [11:30] <karl> ok time to go back to a more interesting life.
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  220. # [11:38] <gsnedders> hmmm… XML compliance and toleration of bad markup?
  221. # [11:39] <zcorpan> ...suggests two authoring formats ;)
  222. # [11:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: people write all sorts of things in requirements docs
  223. # [11:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I do know. It's just some are odder than others.
  224. # [11:42] <zcorpan> We seek an AJAX developer. Must have experience with HTML, XHTML, XML, CSS, XSLT, Java, PHP, ASP, JavaScript, AJAX, MySQL, Access and PowerPoint
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  232. # [14:16] <Philip`> Quite a lot of people do document.namespaces.add("v","urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"); in IE
  233. # [14:16] <anne> parsing scripts now?
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  235. # [14:17] <Philip`> I was just looking on http://www.google.com/codesearch?q=document%5C.namespaces
  236. # [14:17] <Philip`> Seems like most of those VML bits are actually just Dojo
  237. # [14:19] <Philip`> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms529527.aspx - <HTML XMLNS:ts><HEAD><?IMPORT NAMESPACE="ts" IMPLEMENTATION="tabstrip.htc"/></HEAD> and 'tsNS = document.namespaces.add("ts","tabstrip.htc"); tsNS.doImport("tabstrip.htc");'
  238. # [14:19] <Philip`> Does seem non-trivial :-(
  239. # [14:21] <zcorpan> document.namespaces.add("svg", this._svgns);
  240. # [14:21] <zcorpan> document.namespaces("svg").doImport("#AdobeSVG");
  241. # [14:21] <hsivonen> I'm not convinced that *distributed* extensibility is a good thing for stuff that gets served on the Web. The best-known Atom extensions are documented centrally as RFCs and microformats.org is about people coming together to extend HTML instead of everyone doing their thing in their own corner of the Web
  242. # [14:21] <anne> I'm not convinced about namespaces either
  243. # [14:22] <hsivonen> I'm interested in namespaced DOM nodes as a way to bring *existing* vocabularies to text/html.
  244. # [14:22] <zcorpan> http://parentnode.org/javascript/javascript-browser-detection-revisited/
  245. # [14:22] <zcorpan> document.namespaces for browser sniffing
  246. # [14:23] <hsivonen> zcorpan: wow. that approach totally misses the point of object sniffing
  247. # [14:24] <hsivonen> if Murphy's Law applies somewhere, it sure applies on the Web
  248. # [14:24] <Philip`> At least approach is safe for non-IE browsers that add document.namespaces
  249. # [14:25] <hsivonen> Philip`: not if the goal of the script is to detect IE--not to detect browsers that support IE-style namespacing
  250. # [14:31] <zcorpan> adding support for namespaces might break styling for pages that use <html:abbr>cadabra
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  252. # [14:39] <Philip`> zcorpan: Breaking pages that use <style>html\:abbr { color: magenta }</style> with that?
  253. # [14:40] <Philip`> IE uses that selector syntax for matching HTML-namespaced elements, which'd probably be a bit of a pain if other browsers wanted to do it the same as XHTML
  254. # [14:40] <zcorpan> Philip`: yeah, and indeed
  255. # [14:41] <anne> CSS would have to be changed to match on tagname as opposed to localname I suppose
  256. # [14:42] <Philip`> IE's tagName doesn't include the namespace prefix
  257. # [14:42] <zcorpan> perhaps, but then sam ruby would instead want <![cdata[ special casing
  258. # [14:43] <zcorpan> yeah, ie is doing quite the opposite of other browsers
  259. # [14:48] <anne> better not use :
  260. # [14:48] <zcorpan> yeah
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  273. # [17:37] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Aug/0003.html
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  325. # Session Close: Wed Aug 08 00:00:00 2007

The end :)