/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  19. # [03:34] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
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  41. # [08:14] * MikeSmith now notices that no e-mail notifications got sent out for r968 to r972 of the HTML5 spec
  42. # [08:18] <MikeSmith> no records at all even in web-apps-tracker for r971 and 972
  43. # [08:22] * MikeSmith sees that r971 is a whitespace change and the r972 reverts it
  44. # [08:23] <MikeSmith> I see now... just test commits
  45. # [08:49] <Hixie> yeah i was trying to work out why the commit mailing list wasn't working
  46. # [08:49] <Hixie> it should work reliably now
  47. # [08:49] <Hixie> let me know if notice anything after about r980 that didn't get a commit watchers mail
  48. # [08:52] <hsivonen> http://xhtml.com/en/future/fixing-the-web-1/#birbeck
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  50. # [08:55] <Hixie> wow, if html5 is an example of "NIH" syndrome I'd love to see what it looks like when you _don't_ suffer from NIH
  51. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> Hixie - I think you have noticed previously that some notifications fail to get posted to the watchers list
  52. # [08:56] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah, i think i've fixed that once and for all
  53. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> ah, cool
  54. # [08:56] <Hixie> but we never know
  55. # [08:56] <Hixie> so let me know if it breaks again :-)
  56. # [08:56] <MikeSmith> will do
  57. # [09:00] <mjs> Hixie: perhaps the "H" that would apply is "the web"
  58. # [09:02] <Hixie> assuming "the web" includes ISO standards, Dashboard, and GTK+, maybe
  59. # [09:03] <Hixie> though even then, i don't think we'd reject a proposal from elsewhere, if it fit into our design goals
  60. # [09:04] <Hixie> oh and add "XForms" to the list of things that "the web" would have to include (WF2 includes one of the XForms appendices wholesale)
  61. # [09:04] <Hixie> i think the problem mark has run into is that many of the things he has been a proponent for have been things that don't really fit our design principles
  62. # [09:05] <Hixie> like wairole, rdfa, the core parts of xforms...
  63. # [09:08] <hsivonen> what's the impl situation of wairole in the IE+JAWS or IE+WindowsEyes scenarios?
  64. # [09:08] <Hixie> if you give me a test page i can test jaws
  65. # [09:11] <MikeSmith> I wonder what precisely the "the HTML 5 question" is. I mean that one that Mark alludes to in his statement "the W3C's lack of coherent leadership around the whole HTML 5 question"
  66. # [09:12] <hsivonen> Hixie: when looking for role demos, I found a cowpath for non-namespaced homegrown attributes: http://archive.dojotoolkit.org/dojo-2007-05-15/widget/demos/widget/Fisheye.html
  67. # [09:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: here is a role demo: http://www.mozilla.org/access/dhtml/pretty-slider.htm
  68. # [09:14] <Hixie> "It is not, however, within the AT's scope to interpret and parse information in order to make the inaccessible more accessible" is possibly worrying, i dunno exactly what Doug meant
  69. # [09:15] <Hixie> yeah isn't the dojo stuff frightening? it's like a return to 1997, but with a more elaborate JS inclusion mechanism.
  70. # [09:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: wasn't dojo supposed to be the greatest thing?
  71. # [09:16] <Hixie> it has some cool stuff
  72. # [09:17] <Hixie> the presentational modules aren't so hot
  73. # [09:17] <Hixie> (from a semantic/accessibility point of view)
  74. # [09:17] <Hixie> i mean, just turn off the stylesheet on that page to see what i mean
  75. # [09:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: if there was a row of images with links plus an XBL binding, wouldn't custom attributes be handy for giving parameters to the binding?
  76. # [09:18] <Hixie> i love how turning off the stylesheet on the role demo totally breaks it, btw. seems ironic that the accessibility demo is unaccessible to me unless i enable stylesheets.
  77. # [09:18] <Hixie> what parameters would you want to give?
  78. # [09:18] <Hixie> it seems like some sort of CSS extension would be better in this instance
  79. # [09:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, turning off the style sheet on the dojo demo is a reason to have non-CSS img width and height that don't match the bitmap file pixel dims
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  81. # [09:19] <Hixie> nah
  82. # [09:20] <hsivonen> Hixie: looks like dojo takes orientation and edge attachment as parameters
  83. # [09:21] * Hixie fails to come up with a good argument to back up his "nah" gut reaction
  84. # [09:21] <hsivonen> :-)
  85. # [09:21] <Hixie> in html5 you'd put the icon in the icon="" attribute
  86. # [09:21] <Hixie> but i don't really see how to handle that case well in unstyled html4
  87. # [09:22] <hsivonen> Hixie: see also howcome's thesis for a use case of non-matching bitmap dimensions
  88. # [09:22] <hsivonen> (that is, the thesis document itself)
  89. # [09:22] <Hixie> hm?
  90. # [09:22] <Hixie> (ok finally got jaws up. loading page now.)
  91. # [09:22] <hsivonen> http://people.opera.com/howcome/2006/phd/
  92. # [09:22] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  93. # [09:22] <hsivonen> the university logo for instance
  94. # [09:23] <hsivonen> (let's imagine for a moment that it weren't a line drawing and that this weren't really about working around limitations of an older version of Prince)
  95. # [09:23] * Hixie gets out his jaws manual to work out how the hell to navigate the web
  96. # [09:23] <hsivonen> (that is, let's imagine the logo weren't better as SVG)
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  98. # [09:29] <Hixie> sweet lord jaws is so buggy
  99. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> Hixie - if you think Jaws is bad, you should try other screen readers
  100. # [09:31] <MikeSmith> current state of screen-reading software is depressing
  101. # [09:33] <Hixie> ok well i finally managed to get to the mozilla page
  102. # [09:33] <Hixie> in so far as i can determine, there's no support in this version of jaws for this role thing
  103. # [09:33] <Hixie> because nothing happened
  104. # [09:33] <Hixie> it just said "0 100"
  105. # [09:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, i don't really have a good solution for how to handle high res images that are embedded in pages with no styling.
  106. # [09:35] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't see that the height/width attributes actually solve the problem either, e.g. if you load that page on a handheld device the attributes are gonna be way off what is desired
  107. # [09:36] <Hixie> man i can't believe how bad jaws is
  108. # [09:36] <Hixie> that's just unreal
  109. # [09:36] <Hixie> wait, i guess i should try firefox as well
  110. # [09:36] <Hixie> i was trying IE
  111. # [09:39] <Hixie> wow, jaws got all confused and i couldn't work out why, until i reenabled the screen and discovered my MOUSE CURSOR of all things was making the focus jump around, just because it was hovering over something
  112. # [09:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, put the other way: what problem does requiring the attributes to match image dimensions solve?
  113. # [09:39] <Hixie> hello, i'm using jaws, disable the (*@$(%@ mouse
  114. # [09:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: it doesn't solve any problem
  115. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: i really just want to drop the attributes
  116. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: well, let me rephrase that
  117. # [09:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: why require something that doesn't solve anything, will annoy authors and will make the concept of conformance depend on external HTTP resources?
  118. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: it solves the problem that when the images are small and 1:1, e.g. screenshots, it allows UAs to assume dimensions before fetching the images
  119. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: but it doesn't solve anything for images that are high res.
  120. # [09:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: well like i said, i'd rather just drop them altogether
  121. # [09:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: umm. having non-matching attributes solves the need to assume dimensions even for layout on screen where a device px != CSS px
  122. # [09:42] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  123. # [09:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: the browser can reserve rectangles in layout for images that haven't arrived yet without reflowing
  124. # [09:43] <Hixie> christ, gmail is a mess in jaws
  125. # [09:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: if anything, we should add the dimension attributes to <video>
  126. # [09:43] <hsivonen> Hixie: putting per-image dimensions in a CSS file is just a PITA
  127. # [09:44] <hsivonen> I had to do it for my thesis in order to work around SVG impl brokenness. no fun
  128. # [09:44] <Hixie> but putting them in the file makes the file media-specific
  129. # [09:44] <Hixie> in fact it makes it more than media-specific, it makes it device-specific
  130. # [09:44] <Hixie> for anything high res
  131. # [09:45] <hsivonen> it does have a device-specifity prob for small-screen devices
  132. # [09:46] <hsivonen> it doesn't have a device-specifity prob for devices with "normal" physical dimensions and high density
  133. # [09:47] <hsivonen> after all, the attributes have to mean CSS px--not device px.
  134. # [09:47] <hsivonen> otherwise, any browser with non-legacy device pixel density would break the web spectacularly
  135. # [09:49] <Hixie> jaws on firefox 3 actually does read something out for the slider, though i can't for the life of me work out how to use it
  136. # [09:49] <Hixie> oh i agree entirely they have to be css pixels
  137. # [09:50] <Hixie> i don't really see how to deal with the small-screen problem
  138. # [09:50] <Hixie> that problem is only going to get worse as time goes on
  139. # [09:50] <Hixie> i expect devices with the iPhone form factor to become far more common, not less common
  140. # [09:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: if you zap the attributes, people will just move to style='' with px dimensions. if you zap style='', too, they will move to <style> with px dimensions or stop caring about conformance
  141. # [09:52] <hsivonen> Hixie: isn't the iPhone approach to small screen the same as that of the S60 browser: desktop layout plus zoom
  142. # [09:52] <hsivonen> whereas Opera does the adaptation thing
  143. # [09:55] <Hixie> jaws says "zero; move slider left-button; ten-up-down, scroll bar, move slider right-button; one hundred."
  144. # [09:55] <Hixie> i can't work out how to focus one of those buttons though
  145. # [09:55] <Hixie> hsivonen: for pages that don't work, yes, but we are presumably intending to encourage pages that work reliably anywhere.
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  147. # [09:58] <hsivonen> well, well-intentioned people who are following expert advice on em, etc. are making pages with em-sized sidebars and leaving the rest for the content in the middle. with the Nokia 770 / N800 form factor I ofter find that if I make the font size reasonable, the content column becomes seriously unreasonable
  148. # [09:58] <Hixie> yeah
  149. # [09:58] <hsivonen> reliably anywhere is really hard if you don't test everywhere
  150. # [09:58] <Hixie> indeed
  151. # [10:02] <Hixie> blimey, it's late. i should go home.
  152. # [10:02] <hsivonen> anyway, it turns out that often "bad" sites like the BBC or hs.fi are easier to read with sidebars scrolled out of the viewport than good sites like annevankesteren.nl or intertwingly.net :-(
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  158. # [10:45] <anne> do browsers support <map>.images ?
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  160. # [11:08] <anne> oh, it was added based on my suggestion, duh
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  168. # [12:08] <anne> bah, <h> has been proposed yet again
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  172. # [13:35] <anne> DanC, re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2007JulSep/0152.html ; he refers to public-html-mail, not public-html
  173. # [13:36] <anne> zcorpan, can you digg up that diff-link on how HTML5 changed since the HTML WG started?
  174. # [13:36] <zcorpan> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=668&to=796
  175. # [13:37] <zcorpan> the diff of the whatwg spec from the day the w3c html wg launched to the day the group made one decision
  176. # [13:37] * zcorpan wrote in his del.icio.us
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  178. # [13:38] <anne> I wonder what the diff will be the day we make our first design decision
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  188. # [16:51] <DanC> ah; good point, anne
  189. # [16:53] * zcorpan wonders if it's not possible for people to refer to the whatwg multipage version instead of having yet another URI for the spec
  190. # [16:54] <anne> they like W3C colors
  191. # [16:54] <anne> and images
  192. # [16:55] <zcorpan> then they can use user style sheets
  193. # [16:55] <anne> prolly the URI too
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  195. # [17:33] * Philip` still doesn't like the multipage version, since it splits things annoyingly
  196. # [17:33] <anne> yeah, your fault
  197. # [17:34] <Philip`> Indeed :-)
  198. # [17:34] <Philip`> but then people started using it, so changing the page names is probably annoying
  199. # [17:34] <anne> oh, they're hardcoded?
  200. # [17:35] <anne> people should just Opera
  201. # [17:35] <anne> no hanging whatsoever
  202. # [17:35] <Philip`> They're not hardcoded in the splitter script - they're just hardcoded in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0395.html and loads of other places, and it's not nice to break those links by rearranging the sections
  203. # [17:36] <Philip`> Opera hangs for around five seconds for me, seemingly when applying the broken SCS marker things
  204. # [17:37] <anne> well, if Hixie changes IDs etc. page names might break too
  205. # [17:37] <anne> or if he wants to move some stuff around
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  207. # [17:40] <Philip`> Could have a single page that looks at the current fragment identifier and XMLHttpRequests the appropriate content to display to the user, so that .../multipage.html#the-address dynamically finds the relevant section to download...
  208. # [17:42] <zcorpan> that's an interesting approach
  209. # [17:43] <anne> As opposed to?
  210. # [17:43] * anne thought references already worked
  211. # [17:43] <zcorpan> anne: as opposed to splitting on the server
  212. # [17:43] <zcorpan> not about xrefs
  213. # [17:44] <Philip`> Opposed to .../multipage/section-sections.html#the-address, since that's fragile and will break if e.g. the "sections" section is merged with the previous section or is renamed
  214. # [17:45] <zcorpan> (or well, you need to split on the server anyway)
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  216. # [17:49] <anne> Philip`, either version of the spec loads fine for me
  217. # [17:49] <anne> weird
  218. # [17:50] <Philip`> Do you get a narrow green line in the left margin, from just above "1.4. Terminology" down to the end of the page?
  219. # [17:51] <anne> btw, can I have a pointer to your C implementation?
  220. # [17:51] <Philip`> (in the single-page version)
  221. # [17:51] <Philip`> (When the page has downloaded, Opera freezes for a while before that line pops into existence)
  222. # [17:52] <anne> yeah
  223. # [17:52] <anne> hmm
  224. # [17:52] <Philip`> Of the tokeniser? http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/svn/tokeniser/ has the C++/JS/Perl one, though you have to install OCaml and run 'make' to get the actual code
  225. # [17:53] <anne> oh, interesting
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  228. # [18:28] <hober> The spec loads fine for me, in Firefox and Safari
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  238. # [19:44] * Philip` tries implementing canvas shadows in Mozilla
  239. # [19:44] <Philip`> (It seems surprisingly straightforward, but maybe just because I'm not caring much about efficiency...)
  240. # [19:45] <anne> In C?
  241. # [19:45] <anne> Maybe a silly question, but at first I thought you were trying to add them through some JavaScript
  242. # [19:45] <Philip`> Yes
  243. # [19:45] <Philip`> (Well, C++)
  244. # [19:47] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/shadow/shadow2.html (middle column) - already done it in JS, but that's definitely not efficient :-)
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  246. # [19:47] <Philip`> (Uh, that example doesn't work in Opera)
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  249. # [20:07] <anne> I wonder why it doesn't
  250. # [20:09] <Philip`> I think it's because it uses globalCompositeOperation='lighter', which is wrong in Opera
  251. # [20:11] <anne> hmm ok
  252. # [20:12] <anne> does Firefox have any bugs with that attribute?
  253. # [20:12] <anne> we seem to render http://tc.labs.opera.com/html/canvas/getContext/2d/globalCompositeOperation/007.htm identically though
  254. # [20:13] <Philip`> The problem is with semi-transparent colours
  255. # [20:13] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/2d.composite.transparent.lighter.html
  256. # [20:13] <Philip`> (Firefox and Safari both implement all the composite operations correctly, as far as I can tell)
  257. # [20:15] <Philip`> (Some others in http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/index.2d.composite.transparent.html are different in Opera too)
  258. # [20:16] <anne> seems that for the non-transparent cases we differ from Firefox too for some of the other values
  259. # [20:17] <Philip`> (Hmm, just noticed that http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/shadow/shadow2.html doesn't actually work in Firefox either - at least Safari is fine...)
  260. # [20:18] <Philip`> (Oh, whoops, it does work in FF, just not in my FF-with-shadows-hacked-in)
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  286. # [22:48] <Hixie> Philip`: if you want to do that i recommend keeping the static pages, but just having a script that checks to see if the given fragid is actually in another file and if it is it does a redirect
  287. # [22:48] <Hixie> Philip`: then we can have that script in the 404 page for that directory
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  290. # [23:30] <Philip`> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/08/1558225 - people there sound really fond of <blink>
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  299. # Session Close: Thu Aug 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)