/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Aug 13 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  13. # [01:25] * karl is discovering the fires of the week-end.
  14. # [01:26] <karl> Monday mornings are always surprising. I connect and discover how people are often at hurting each other. I really wish that there was more care on both sides.
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  17. # [01:44] * karl is reading molly's post and comments
  18. # [01:48] <karl> "to either have the WHAT-WG disbanded"... hmmm. That would be bad in terms of respect of opinions and expression. W3C has no legal power on WHATWG.
  19. # [01:48] <karl> <humour>
  20. # [01:50] <karl> olivier and I have trained the whole summer in Tokyo. We are ready to be sent after each WHATWG member.
  21. # [01:50] <karl> You need a hitman, send us.
  22. # [01:51] <karl> -- Hit Tokyo Men L.
  23. # [01:51] <karl> </humour>
  24. # [01:53] <karl> More than disbanding whatwg, I would prefer that authors, people from web agencies, advocacy organization constitute a big group to promote authoring techniques and guidelines. So It would be easier to understand how pages are authored more than looking at stats of web pages.
  25. # [01:55] <karl> WASP - http://webstandards.org/
  26. # [01:55] <karl> OpenWeb - http://openweb.eu.org/
  27. # [01:55] <karl> W3Quebec - http://w3qc.org/
  28. # [01:55] <karl> WSG - http://webstandardsgroup.org/
  29. # [02:37] <karl> hmmm each time I worked in the source code of HTML 5 specification with Textmate, the CPU goes over the top.
  30. # [02:37] <karl> [09:35] Karl: 12039 TextMate 98.4%
  31. # [02:44] <karl> http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/08/a-hierarchy-of-.html
  32. # [02:44] <karl> A Hierarchy of Authoring Tools
  33. # [02:45] <karl> "User-generated content as a whole is also often not quite as appealing or attractive as what authors with the full resources of a developer can create: open-source creativity sometimes generates broad but subtly unsatisfying experiences."
  34. # [02:46] <karl> "How would you rank the intrinsic difficulty of creating easy-to-use but powerful authoring tools or authoring platforms in the following areas of virtual world design:"
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  36. # [02:48] * karl is hunting for HTML editors
  37. # [02:48] <karl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_HTML_editors
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  40. # [02:58] <karl> wow same story for Adobe Golive. Opening HTML 5 pushes the CPU at 95%
  41. # [02:59] <karl> 17296 Adobe GoLi 98.8%
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  45. # [04:31] <karl> hmmm the html 5 specification is kind of DoS by itself. Very hard to work and edit it
  46. # [04:47] <Lachy> karl, Dreamweaver struggles with massive files too.
  47. # [04:47] <Lachy> I think Hixie uses emacs to edit it, though
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  49. # [04:55] <karl> Lachy: yes but that's bad. even by applying tidy on it before it doesn't solve that much.
  50. # [04:55] <karl> I think I will have to start from scratch I needed part of the content.
  51. # [04:56] <karl> I have also noticed that
  52. # [04:56] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/Overview.html
  53. # [04:56] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/
  54. # [04:56] <karl> don't give the same version
  55. # [04:57] <karl> I must have made a mistake for the redirects
  56. # [04:59] <karl> or there is an hidden file somewhere
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  60. # [05:35] <karl> problem of multiple versions is soved.
  61. # [05:35] <karl> solved
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  74. # [11:34] <hsivonen> What Molly says is very non-specific. It seems to invite commenters to stir it but it doesn't look like something that could be addressed productively. :-(
  75. # [11:48] <karl> I guess molly expresses worries. Some of these worries are driven by the fact that from HTML 4 specification to HTML 5 Specification, there is nothing in common.
  76. # [11:49] <karl> I still believe that the specification should have been split
  77. # [11:49] <karl> and we are paying the price of misunderstanding now
  78. # [11:50] <karl> when I say nothing in document, I'm talking about the documents
  79. # [11:51] <karl> s/nothing in document/nothing in common/
  80. # [11:51] <karl> my usual dislexya
  81. # [11:52] <karl> I wish that WASP would help at least to federate authors and web designers. It would really help in the flow of the discussion.
  82. # [11:53] <karl> the only issue I see about WASP is that there is somehow too much cross-polinization. http://www.webstandards.org/about/members/
  83. # [11:55] <karl> I remember when I participated to the creation of W3Quebec, advocacy group in Canada, I have decided to stay behind and not actively participate, to guarantee their independence.
  84. # [11:58] <hsivonen> karl: I expect this to be hard for the WaSP: http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill
  85. # [11:59] <hsivonen> karl: that is, they have prominent members who have advocated XHTML (de facto as text/html)
  86. # [12:01] <hsivonen> (this sort of thing also leads to bizarre statements about "Web standards" on public-html, when the list is about defining Web standards)
  87. # [12:04] <karl> hsivonen: yes but the list public-html is a mix of communities. With a very black and white picture, I would say, people implementing browsers and people using the markup. People using the markup are left apart for now, because HTML 5 specification as it is now is not usable for them.
  88. # [12:04] <karl> This morning, I took a copy of HTML 5
  89. # [12:04] <karl> put it in authoring tool and started to remove things which were not directly for authors by removing big chunk of sections
  90. # [12:05] <karl> even doing that you end up with a document which is still not readable for authors.
  91. # [12:05] <karl> :) authors are part of the business of HTML.
  92. # [12:05] <hsivonen> karl: I wouldn't even expect the spec to be usable for authors. I'd expect an O'Reilly book to rehash it for authors.
  93. # [12:05] <karl> the other part of the community (implementers, browser developers) have a hard time to accept this :)
  94. # [12:06] <karl> It will come little by little
  95. # [12:06] <karl> each community will do a step
  96. # [12:06] <karl> and at a point they will meet
  97. # [12:06] <karl> hsivonen: that's exactly the demonstration ;) of what I was saying
  98. # [12:06] <hsivonen> karl: I know. :-)
  99. # [12:06] <hsivonen> karl: there's a point in there, though
  100. # [12:07] <karl> :)
  101. # [12:07] <hsivonen> karl: for the spec to be precise enough for implementors and spec lawyers who advice authors, the spec needs to say things that look like unusable distractions to casual authors who want to read a tutorial
  102. # [12:09] <hsivonen> karl: for example, the "writing html" section isn't really for authors. it is for author-side spec lawyers who can't/won't step through the algorithms
  103. # [12:10] <karl> yep agreed
  104. # [12:10] <karl> splitting the spec. :)
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  121. # [18:09] * gsnedders wishes we could just get a FPWD out there
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  134. # [20:53] <gsnedders> can anyone remember when DanC was planning on publishing a FPWD despite any and all objections?
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  136. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0628.html
  137. # [20:59] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: thanks
  138. # [20:59] <zcorpan_> this week is mid-august
  139. # [21:00] <gsnedders> I'd much rather be citing a public WD (and I need a stable URI that will always point to a single version) than an editor's draft
  140. # [21:01] <zcorpan_> why?
  141. # [21:01] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: the URIs is _far_ less likely to break
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The end :)