/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-14 / end

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  78. # [18:05] <Philip`> http://www.wheresmysquare.com/ does break (to some extent) when usemap is missing, since then it doesn't do the mouseover tooltip things - so it is an example of existing content that's using usemap to solve a real problem
  79. # [18:14] <Philip`> (When you click on an unclaimed square, or when you click anywhere with IE/Safari, the server gets the x,y click coordinates and then redirects you to the relevant square's page; when you click on a claimed square in FF/Opera, the image map lets you see the title="..." and sends you directly to the relevant square's page)
  80. # [18:14] * Quits: Lionhear1 (robin@66.57.69.65) (Ping timeout)
  81. # [18:17] <LordOfHell> true
  82. # [18:21] <Philip`> It'd be nice if you could do <map name=m><area ... href=square1.html></map><a href=square.php><img ... ismap usemap=#m></a> so the client-side image map takes precedence and the server-side image map applies in the uncovered areas
  83. # [18:21] <Philip`> but that only works in Firefox, not IE or Opera
  84. # [18:22] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  85. # [18:22] <Philip`> (and it doesn't fall back gracefully in IE, so it's not an acceptable solution for that use case)
  86. # [18:24] <Lachy> the site still functions and it's easier for a single site to change to <img usemap> than it is for many sites to be forced to fix their sites, especially when many of those won't know how
  87. # [18:25] <Philip`> I don't think it can change to <img usemap> without losing functionality
  88. # [18:25] <Lachy> or <img ismap>
  89. # [18:25] <Philip`> I don't think it can change to <img ismap> without losing functionality
  90. # [18:25] <Philip`> It wants the combination of client-side and server-side image map functionality
  91. # [18:26] <Lachy> there are other solutions, like that used here http://www.milliondollarhomepage.com/
  92. # [18:27] <Lachy> what if <area> could be used to provide title="" only, and href="" were ignored when used on inputs?
  93. # [18:28] <Philip`> That relies on the image map covering every square (or small set of squares) individually, which requires tens of thousands of extra <area>s when you have lots of individual squares you want to link independently, whereas the wheresmysquare site only needs one <area> per claimed square
  94. # [18:32] <Philip`> <area> with title-only might help in that case - it wouldn't avoid the extra server round-trip to convert mouse coordinates into square coordinates, but that seems a more minor issue and there are other ways to achieve the same (like with client-side JS, with fallback to the server round-trip method when JS is disabled)
  95. # [18:34] <Philip`> but it seems weird and confusing to support area titles but not hrefs
  96. # [18:34] <Philip`> (and quite possibly not worthwhile, even if it means this particular site will lose functionality)
  97. # [18:49] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  98. # [18:51] <Philip`> (As far as I can tell, <img usemap=#m ismap> in HTML5 would do the desired mix of client-side and server-side image maps, so that's good, except it breaks badly in IE)
  99. # [18:52] <Philip`> (Er, but I could be wrong about it working in HTML5, since it's not blindingly obvious what happens)
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  101. # [18:57] <Lachy> <img usemap ismap> could possibly be introduced if there isn't any content that relies on IE's broken behaviour. It could be a bug that we can fix without breaking back compat. The issue would be with graceful degradation
  102. # [19:01] <Philip`> Looks like IE makes any <a href=h><img usemap=#m></a> (regardless of whether it's got an ismap too) into a clickable thing that does nothing when you click on it, so it doesn't seem like behaviour that anyone would rely on
  103. # [19:02] <Philip`> Oh, that's not true
  104. # [19:02] <Philip`> It makes the areas that aren't covered by <area>s into a clickable thing that does nothing
  105. # [19:02] <Philip`> (but the areas covered by <area>s work like a normal image map)
  106. # [19:11] <Lachy> OMG! I'm not responding to this http://www.w3.org/mid/46C1DBFF.2050500@Rhul.Ac.Uk - that's just arguing for the sake of arging. He still didn't bother to outline a use case for it, just that it should be included because it was in HTML4
  107. # [19:12] <Philip`> Are there any archives of the "combined wisdom of all those who formulated the specification for HTML 4.01 in the first place" as to why they allowed <input usemap>?
  108. # [19:13] <Lachy> possibly in www-html, but more likely somewhere in the member only archives
  109. # [19:14] <Lachy> http://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/search?type-index=www-html&index-type=t&keywords=input+usemap&search=Search - both are related to XHTML2
  110. # [19:17] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2002OctDec/0025.html
  111. # [19:18] <Lachy> how do UAs deal with <button><img usemap></button>?
  112. # [19:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/html-erb
  113. # [19:20] <Lachy> hsivonen, 7 results on that one, 21 results on another. It seems there's been very little discussion about it at all
  114. # [19:21] <Philip`> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2000AprJun/0433.html - why does HTML5 add <nav> instead of reusing <map>?
  115. # [19:21] <hsivonen> Lachy: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/html-erb/1997JanMar/0128.html
  116. # [19:22] <Lachy> ah, I see. The intention was as a way to improve accessibility, so that authors could provide clearly defined <area>, because the co-ordinate approach is innacessible to non-visual UAs
  117. # [19:22] <Philip`> (<map> seemingly has the advantage of being parsed correctly by IE and Firefox, which <nav> isn't)
  118. # [19:22] <Lachy> I think the better solution is not to use <input type=image> as an image map. It's better to use separate input elemenets
  119. # [19:24] <Lachy> hsivonen: how are you able to read that? Do you have member access?
  120. # [19:24] <hsivonen> Lachy: I have Member access
  121. # [19:24] <Lachy> ok
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  126. # [19:43] <Philip`> Are there any current implementations of the HTML5 header-association algorithm?
  127. # [19:44] <Lachy> Hixie has one, I started writing a JS one
  128. # [19:45] <Lachy> hsivonen, does your validator implement that algorithem?
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  130. # [19:46] <Lachy> I want JS one so I can write an extension to give interactive inspection of table cells and their headers
  131. # [19:46] <Lachy> but I got stuck trying to figure out the best structure to store all the information about the table, which could be easily accessed
  132. # [19:48] <Philip`> Okay - I was wondering if it might be useful to have some system for testing various header algorithms on a set of tables, particularly since I can't understand what the HTML5 does by just reading the spec
  133. # [19:49] <Philip`> Oh, jgraham says he's doing exactly that
  134. # [19:49] <Lachy> is he writing one in python?
  135. # [19:50] <Philip`> ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0481.html )
  136. # [19:50] * Philip` isn't sure
  137. # [19:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: no. my validator implements Hixie's email to the whatwg list from way back when
  138. # [19:50] <hsivonen> Lachy: that is, it checks that headers='' points to th within the same table
  139. # [19:51] <Lachy> ah, is the spec version more recent than that email?
  140. # [19:51] <hsivonen> Lachy: yes
  141. # [19:51] <hsivonen> Lachy: but I expect the spec to turn back to the direction of the old email in due course
  142. # [19:52] <Lachy> oh, right, so you don't need to do the implicit association anyway, since you couldn't validate based on the result of it anyway
  143. # [19:52] <hsivonen> right
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  153. # [20:21] <jgraham> Lachy: Yes
  154. # [20:21] <jgraham> He is :)
  155. # [20:22] <Lachy> cool, how much have you done already?
  156. # [20:22] <jgraham> Not much, I spent about an hour on it yesterday evening
  157. # [20:23] <jgraham> The basic plan is to implement the tables section of the spec
  158. # [20:23] <jgraham> so that I can parse out all the data about a table
  159. # [20:23] <Lachy> ok, maybe we can share some of our ideas about it. I can port any good python code to JS, and you can port any of my good JS code to python
  160. # [20:24] <Lachy> I'll upload what I have so far
  161. # [20:24] <jgraham> then to have some algorithms for doing header/cell association on the resulting data
  162. # [20:25] <Lachy> http://lachy.id.au/dev/tools/table-inspector/
  163. # [20:25] <Lachy> all uploaded now
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  165. # [20:26] <jgraham> OK, I'll have a look at that
  166. # [20:27] <jgraham> anyway, the final part of my plan is to have a webpage which displays the table and has some javascript which allows you to click on the cells and see the headings
  167. # [20:27] <jgraham> s/see/highlight/
  168. # [20:28] <Lachy> the basic way it works is to use a TreeWalker to step through all the elements, using a filter that I can customise as necessary. e.g. so I can go from looking for colgroup to col, etc.
  169. # [20:28] <Lachy> that was my plan, but to have the entire thing implemented in JS
  170. # [20:29] <Philip`> jgraham: Could you make it automatically display all the headings in each cell, rather than requiring people to click around dozens of cells to see what's going on?
  171. # [20:30] <jgraham> Philip`: I can't visulise what you mean
  172. # [20:30] <jgraham> s/visulise/visualise/
  173. # [20:30] <Lachy> Philip`: do you mean like the table inspector JuicyStudio had made before, which just uses headers and scope
  174. # [20:31] <Lachy> http://juicystudio.com/article/complextableinspector.php
  175. # [20:31] <Lachy> I was going to make it interactive, so that if you hover or click on a cell, the associated headers would be highlighted, and possibly vice versa
  176. # [20:32] <Philip`> Lachy: Ah, yes, something like that
  177. # [20:33] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be useful to have that kind of thing as well as an interactive display
  178. # [20:33] <Lachy> I want to find some way of doing a comparison between the implicit association ignoring headers, and the explicit association with headers
  179. # [20:33] <Philip`> (or maybe not)
  180. # [20:33] <Lachy> so that users can look at a table and see whether or not the headers attributes are redundant or necessary
  181. # [20:34] <jgraham> Oh, I see. That would be good although I guess highlight on click would still be good
  182. # [20:35] <jgraham> Lachy: Being able to compare the results with different algorithms is very much my goal.
  183. # [20:35] <Lachy> ah, great minds think alike! :-)
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  185. # [20:45] <Lachy> hey Roger
  186. # [20:45] <Roger> hey
  187. # [20:45] <Roger> wow, someone here when I visit
  188. # [20:46] <Lachy> do most people usually run and hide?
  189. # [20:46] <Roger> hehe :P
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The end :)