/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Aug 16 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  41. # [06:53] * karl wonders if it would help if Hixie was sending a simple email to the mailing list each time he starts to edit a new item in the editor's draft.
  42. # [06:53] <karl> Even better having a list of the table of content
  43. # [06:54] <karl> and with last edited date beside each entry. and a not yet edited beside things to come.
  44. # [06:55] <karl> then people will /maybe/ be less afraid of things which seem to be dropped when they have not been edited yet.
  45. # [06:57] * Lachy wonders when people will realise that the approach of requiring consensus before editing anything is counterproductive
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  47. # [06:58] <Lachy> ... and when they will realise that so many issues have been thoroughly discussed in the whatwg prior to merging with the W3C
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  49. # [07:02] <karl> Lachy: it's why I suggest to give information to people beforehand. :)
  50. # [07:03] <karl> it will help people to understand.
  51. # [07:03] <Lachy> yeah, publishing some sort of schedule might be useful
  52. # [07:04] <Lachy> Hixie sometimes indicates which sections he'll be working on in the next few weeks in IRC. I think he mentioned he'll be starting on the headers and/or longdesc issues soon (can't remember which one)
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  59. # [07:35] <Lachy> hey, I just realised that this photo album of Gregory's is a good example of providing long descriptions without longdesc=""! http://my.opera.com/oedipus/albums/showpic.dml?album=212490&picture=3302055
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  70. # [10:15] <jgraham> Lachy: your reply on the "Baby steps or backward steps" neatly summarised everything I had put in a much less well written, unfinished, email. Thanks ;)
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  76. # [11:08] <gsnedders> time to do what I promised DanC I'd do last night
  77. # [11:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: he was going through dom-events last I knew
  78. # [11:10] <Lachy> gsnedders: who was?
  79. # [11:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: hixie
  80. # [11:10] <Lachy> ok
  81. # [11:11] <gsnedders> Lachy: he asked for a random number, and I gave the number (42) of the dom-events mailbox
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  83. # [11:45] <Lachy> aargh! Robert Burns is now shifting the burden of proof for the inclusion of a feature he wants included, onto me. That's absolutely absured
  84. # [11:48] <gsnedders> Lachy: while you're at it, can you go and find proof for inclusion of a colour picker? :P
  85. # [11:48] <Lachy> who wants that?
  86. # [11:48] <Lachy> you?
  87. # [11:48] <gsnedders> among others, yes
  88. # [11:49] <gsnedders> I've been meaning to go and get all the proof together when I have time
  89. # [11:49] <Lachy> ok, I'll figure out what the use case is for you to :-)
  90. # [11:49] <gsnedders> (I actually went back to something on my to-do list that's been there since Feb '06 yesterday)
  91. # [12:01] <Hixie> colour pickers would be nice
  92. # [12:02] <Hixie> but they're not making the cut for html5
  93. # [12:02] <Hixie> we're adding too much other new widgets
  94. # [12:02] <Hixie> too many, rather
  95. # [12:02] <gsnedders> Hixie: how much do you expect you'll change WF2, BTW?
  96. # [12:04] <Hixie> other than dropping the repetition section and rewriting all the text to be self-contained instead of a diff spec from DOM2 and HTML4, not much
  97. # [12:05] <hsivonen> speaking of WF2, if I got to nominate, I'd nominate Hixie, anne and mjs to the Forms TF
  98. # [12:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: I wonder how much the WG will want, though
  99. # [12:06] <Lachy> I'm sure there will be some people who object having 3 people involved with the WHATWG on the task force, though I agree that situation would be ideal
  100. # [12:07] <gsnedders> Lachy: how would it be ideal, though?
  101. # [12:08] <Lachy> because people on the WHATWG tend to be quite well informed about the current state of WF2
  102. # [12:08] <gsnedders> (I do agree with hsivonen's nominations, though)
  103. # [12:08] <Lachy> (and also because those 3 people generally share my POV in many issues)
  104. # [12:09] <zcorpan_> iirc, anne nominated Hixie, mjs and hsivonen
  105. # [12:09] <Lachy> no-one nominated me?
  106. # [12:09] <Lachy> :-(
  107. # [12:10] <gsnedders> Lachy: no. you're here to go find proof for Robert Burns :)
  108. # [12:10] <Hixie> fwiw i'd be happy with you on the task force, lachy
  109. # [12:11] <Lachy> I don't particularly want to be cause I don't want particularly deal with the XForms WG
  110. # [12:11] <Lachy> my past experience with them hasn't been productive
  111. # [12:11] <gsnedders> how many implementers are there on the XForms WG?
  112. # [12:13] <Lachy> no-idea, probably a few like people from IBM, Mark Birbeck (I think)
  113. # [12:14] <gsnedders> I think we really need someone from Opera who has actually implemented WF2
  114. # [12:20] <Lachy> hey, I'm trying to be completely scientific with my response about the alt attribute. Can someone review this and just check I followed the scientific method properly: http://lachy.id.au/temp/alt.txt
  115. # [12:21] <Lachy> it goes from observations, to hypothesis to testing methodology and expected results
  116. # [12:23] <hsivonen> if I weren't ill, I'd be replying to the baby steps thread, too, but now I'm in a stress avoidance mode trying to get back in health
  117. # [12:25] <Hixie> you use [1] twice
  118. # [12:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: ill?
  119. # [12:25] <Lachy> Hixie: the first is supposed to be a reference to the second
  120. # [12:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: what with?
  121. # [12:26] <Lachy> oh, I see
  122. # [12:26] <gsnedders> and I've now just been reminded to rind the doctor :\
  123. # [12:26] <Hixie> Lachy: ah ok
  124. # [12:27] <Lachy> I wasn't aware of the one after "Gregory's own photo album" was still there, I thought I'd taken it out
  125. # [12:30] <hsivonen> gsnedders: a relatively bad summer flu since saturday :-(
  126. # [12:33] * gsnedders is going to miss Maths with an appointment at that time. Maybe computing too. He'll fail computing now.
  127. # [12:34] <gsnedders> (actually, FWIW, I'd didn't get the top grade for practical computing abilities last year)
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  131. # [12:55] <gsnedders> almost two hours to write that email.
  132. # [13:06] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/291 updated
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  135. # [13:50] <krijnh> Philip`: If you send me the missing parts, I can add them to the logs
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  137. # [14:15] <Philip`> krijnh: I seem to remember you disconnecting quite frequently recently, but I'm not sure if that means you've lost significant bits of log (other than the few lines mentioned earlier about design principles being #3)
  138. # [14:15] <Philip`> I could send my whole log file, but I don't know if it is/isn't worth trying to stitch them back together for the online log
  139. # [14:24] <krijnh> Philip`: Yeah, I know :( Damn adsl connection
  140. # [14:24] <krijnh> Philip`: Don't know either, cause I don't know what I'm missing :)
  141. # [14:25] <krijnh> Perhaps you can filter out the important parts (if there are)
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  145. # [15:01] <Philip`> "This was awesome! - IMG20674.JPG" - "I can't imagine anyone presented with that would be able to determine that the image is a picture of a humpback whale breaching the surface off the coast of California." - it would be so much easier if we could specify "User agents MUST ensure their users have psychic powers"
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  169. # [18:45] <DanC> Zakim, this will be html
  170. # [18:45] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
  171. # [18:45] * Joins: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  172. # [18:45] <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc
  173. # [18:47] <Lachy> DanC: what's the command to get the phone number from zakim?
  174. # [18:48] <DanC> Zakim, passcode?
  175. # [18:48] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), DanC
  176. # [18:49] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG telcon 16 Aug 1700Z http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  177. # [18:50] <DanC> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16_formal
  178. # [18:50] <Zakim> working on it, DanC
  179. # [18:50] <Zakim> done reading agenda, DanC
  180. # [18:51] <DanC> :-/
  181. # [18:52] <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has now started
  182. # [18:52] <Zakim> +??P0
  183. # [18:52] <Lachy> Zakim: I am +??P0
  184. # [18:53] <DanC> Zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16_formal
  185. # [18:53] <Zakim> working on it, DanC
  186. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z
  187. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 1 added
  188. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ next meeting, regular meeting times
  189. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 2 added
  190. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ toward release of Design Principles
  191. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 3 added
  192. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Detailed Spec Reviews
  193. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 4 added
  194. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ table headers
  195. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 5 added
  196. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Name for XHTML serialization
  197. # [18:53] * Joins: CarolKing (CarolK@70.242.223.12)
  198. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 6 added
  199. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Forms Taskforce
  200. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 7 added
  201. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ face-to-face meeting 8-9 November
  202. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 8 added
  203. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Announcement mailing list, RSS feeds
  204. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 9 added
  205. # [18:53] <Zakim> agenda+ Wiki Migration
  206. # [18:53] <Zakim> agendum 10 added
  207. # [18:53] <Zakim> done reading agenda, DanC
  208. # [18:53] * Lachy DanC did I get the command wrong or something?
  209. # [18:54] * DanC Zakim, who's on the phone?
  210. # [18:54] * Zakim sees on the phone: ??P0
  211. # [18:54] <Lachy> Zakim, I am ??P0
  212. # [18:54] <Zakim> +Lachy; got it
  213. # [18:54] <DanC> right; direct address is comma. colon is for attribution.
  214. # [18:54] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  215. # [18:54] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  216. # [18:54] <Zakim> +DanC
  217. # [18:57] * Lachy DanC, yay! found the setting :-)
  218. # [18:58] * DanC :)
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  220. # [18:59] <michael> hello all
  221. # [19:00] * Lachy hi michael
  222. # [19:00] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  223. # [19:00] <Zakim> + +1.312.933.aaaa
  224. # [19:00] <DanC> Zakim, aaaa is Rob_Burns
  225. # [19:01] <Zakim> + +49.208.8.aabb
  226. # [19:01] <Zakim> +Rob_Burns; got it
  227. # [19:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
  228. # [19:01] <DanC> Zakim, aabb Marcin_Hanclik
  229. # [19:01] <Zakim> I don't understand 'aabb Marcin_Hanclik', DanC
  230. # [19:01] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  231. # [19:01] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z" taken up
  232. # [19:02] <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
  233. # [19:02] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
  234. # [19:02] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0535.html
  235. # [19:02] <oedipus> zakim, mute me
  236. # [19:02] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  237. # [19:02] <oedipus> zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
  238. # [19:02] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
  239. # [19:03] <hsivonen> hmm. Skype isn't working :-(
  240. # [19:03] <DanC> Zakim, aabb is Marcin_Hanclik
  241. # [19:03] <Zakim> +Marcin_Hanclik; got it
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  243. # [19:03] <Zakim> +Dave_Singer
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  246. # [19:04] * Lachy I added my name and number to this name mapping form before, and it didn't work for me http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/info/name.php3
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  249. # [19:06] <DanC> scribe: Lachy
  250. # [19:06] <DanC> regrets: Anne
  251. # [19:07] <mausonio> hi all
  252. # [19:07] * oedipus aloha, mausonio
  253. # [19:07] <DanC> Zakim, close item 1
  254. # [19:07] <Zakim> agendum 1, Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-16T17:00:00Z, closed
  255. # [19:07] <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  256. # [19:08] <Zakim> 2. next meeting, regular meeting times
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  258. # [19:08] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 3
  259. # [19:08] <Zakim> agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up
  260. # [19:08] <DanC> [DONE] ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles
  261. # [19:09] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0617.html # HTML Design Principles Review Maciej Stachowiak (Thursday, 16 August)
  262. # [19:09] <Lachy> DanC, Maciej wants to start a review of the design principles, I want to ship the draft
  263. # [19:09] <Lachy> DanC: Maciej wants to start a review of the design principles, I want to ship the draft
  264. # [19:10] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  265. # [19:10] <DanC> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0580.html # Re: Support for Design Principles (was: Design Principles survey delayed) Geoffrey Sneddon (Thursday, 16 August)
  266. # [19:11] <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
  267. # [19:11] <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  268. # [19:11] <oedipus> zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  269. # [19:11] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
  270. # [19:12] * Joins: maha (maha@82.207.140.17)
  271. # [19:12] <Lachy> Zakim, oedipus is Gregory_Rosmaita
  272. # [19:12] <Zakim> sorry, Lachy, I do not recognize a party named 'oedipus'
  273. # [19:12] <DanC> ack greg
  274. # [19:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  275. # [19:12] <oedipus> one concern is that rearranging the Proposed Design Principles will break a lot of link on the wiki, so we should procede with caution
  276. # [19:12] <DanC> Zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
  277. # [19:12] <Zakim> Gregory_Rosmaita was not muted, DanC
  278. # [19:13] <Lachy> GR: If we accept mjs suggestion, the problem is that the references to the old proposals will be broken
  279. # [19:14] * Joins: jgraham_ (jgraham@81.86.209.27)
  280. # [19:14] <Lachy> GR: MoinMoin doesn't have ability to move wiki pages
  281. # [19:14] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  282. # [19:15] * Lachy is having trouble scribing
  283. # [19:15] * Joins: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.101)
  284. # [19:16] <DanC> Zakim, [Microsoft] is ChrisW
  285. # [19:16] <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
  286. # [19:16] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 2
  287. # [19:16] <Zakim> agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up
  288. # [19:17] <Lachy> DanC: My thought is to have 2 separate times. One chaired by me, other by Cris
  289. # [19:17] <Lachy> s/Cris/Chris/
  290. # [19:18] <Lachy> Chris: I think bi-weekly meetings would be good
  291. # [19:18] <Lachy> DanC: that's probably good enough
  292. # [19:20] <dsinger> 2300Z is +6 from now...
  293. # [19:20] <DanC> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?month=8&day=16&year=2007&p1=0&p2=137&p3=240&p4=-1
  294. # [19:20] <Lachy> [discussion of new time for meeting]
  295. # [19:22] <DanC> "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 14:00:00 Thu 7:00 AM * Midnight Thu-Fri"
  296. # [19:23] <DanC> my favorite: "Thursday, August 30, 2007 at 23:00:00Z Thu 4:00 PM * Fri 9:00 AM"
  297. # [19:24] <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Pacific.
  298. # [19:25] <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 08:00:00 Friday in Asia/Tokyo
  299. # [19:25] <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 09:00:00 Friday in Australia/Melbourne
  300. # [19:25] <Zakim> +??P11
  301. # [19:25] <hsivonen> this is hsivonen
  302. # [19:25] <DanC> Zakim, ??P11 hsivonen
  303. # [19:25] <Zakim> I don't understand '??P11 hsivonen', DanC
  304. # [19:25] <Chris> Zakim, +??P11 hsivonen
  305. # [19:25] <Zakim> I don't understand '+??P11 hsivonen', Chris
  306. # [19:26] <DanC> Zakim, ??P11 is hsivonen
  307. # [19:26] <Zakim> +hsivonen; got it
  308. # [19:26] <Lachy> what's the difference between Pacific and Boston time zones?
  309. # [19:26] <Chris> 3 hours.
  310. # [19:27] <Chris> PST = UTC/GMT -7/8
  311. # [19:27] <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet Thu 30 Aug 4pm Pacific/2300Z, and to meet weekly, alternating between 1pm Boston time and 4pm Los Angeles
  312. # [19:27] <oedipus> 2300z Thursday is 04:30:00 Friday in Asia/Calcutta
  313. # [19:27] <DanC> so RESOLVED.
  314. # [19:27] <DanC> Zakim, close item 2
  315. # [19:27] <Zakim> agendum 2, next meeting, regular meeting times, closed
  316. # [19:27] <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  317. # [19:27] <Zakim> 3. toward release of Design Principles
  318. # [19:28] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  319. # [19:28] <Zakim> agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up
  320. # [19:29] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.203)
  321. # [19:29] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  322. # [19:29] <Lachy> DanC: I was going to do a survey about the design principles
  323. # [19:29] <Lachy> DanC: Mjs finally sent a wrap up, which says "let's start over" - that's depressing
  324. # [19:30] <Lachy> DanC: I was hoping we were 2/3 of the way through review process
  325. # [19:30] <Lachy> DanC: Chris, have you read the summary from gsnedders?
  326. # [19:30] <DanC> summary from sneddon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0580.html
  327. # [19:30] <Lachy> Chris: I have not
  328. # [19:30] <Lachy> DanC: I was hoping to publish the document in a week
  329. # [19:31] <Lachy> Chris: mjs did not have a time frame for when the clean up would be done
  330. # [19:32] <Lachy> Chris: I think we need a short time frame
  331. # [19:32] <Lachy> Chris: we should have it out for reveiw within a week, then clean up and then agree within 2 weeks
  332. # [19:34] <Lachy> Chris: we should respond to mjs and say we like the plan, we want to make sure we're at step 5 by next week.
  333. # [19:34] <Lachy> DanC: let's review gsnedders message
  334. # [19:35] <DanC> (I'm also opening http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples in another window, last edited 2007-08-16 12:26:51)
  335. # [19:36] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  336. # [19:36] <Zakim> On the phone I see Lachy, DanC, Rob_Burns, Marcin_Hanclik, Gregory_Rosmaita, Dave_Singer, ChrisW, hsivonen
  337. # [19:36] <Lachy> RB: I thought the support existing content principle was fairly solid
  338. # [19:37] <Lachy> DanC: I wonder what gsnedders means by how it's being implemented in "I've not to my knowledge heard anything against this, though there have been people questioning how it has been implemented."
  339. # [19:38] * Lachy who said that?
  340. # [19:38] * gsnedders starts wondering what he meant
  341. # [19:38] <oedipus> the last comment on implmentation and HTML5 test suites for degrading gracefully was GJR
  342. # [19:39] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.15.142)
  343. # [19:39] <oedipus> need practical not theoretical data
  344. # [19:39] <Lachy> RB: I'm not sure he's changes to the Wheel principle made too much difference, I don't have any problems with it myself
  345. # [19:39] <Lachy> s/he's/his/
  346. # [19:39] <gsnedders> It may well be just how some things in the spec degrade.
  347. # [19:40] <mjs> hi everyone
  348. # [19:40] <Lachy> DanC: is the survey a cost effective way to proceed?
  349. # [19:40] <gsnedders> I cannot find anything more specific than that, so I'm assuming that's all I meant.
  350. # [19:40] * oedipus aloha maciej
  351. # [19:40] <Lachy> Chris: how long to put it together?
  352. # [19:41] <Lachy> Chris: [need to decide which principles are stable and finsish the survey with DanC]
  353. # [19:41] <DanC> ACTION DanC: discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones
  354. # [19:41] * RRSAgent records action 1
  355. # [19:42] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  356. # [19:42] <Zakim> agendum 4. "Detailed Spec Reviews" taken up
  357. # [19:42] <gsnedders> I expect even from survey the majority would have consensus
  358. # [19:42] <oedipus> +1 from GJR to DanC & ChrisW's action item
  359. # [19:43] <Lachy> DanC: What hasn't been done in the spec reviews? [checks wiki...]
  360. # [19:45] <Lachy> Marcin: I have reviewed the media elements
  361. # [19:45] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0280.html
  362. # [19:46] <DanC> review from marcin http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/1191.html
  363. # [19:47] <Lachy> is this it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0407.html ?
  364. # [19:47] <mjs> fwiw I don't think a survey will be very helpful to improving the document, but I'll look over the results if there is one
  365. # [19:47] <DanC> no reviews for Communications, no volunteers. hmm
  366. # [19:48] <DanC> ChrisW: I'll make sure Communications gets covered
  367. # [19:49] <dsinger> apple has some comments of detail on the video/audio tags coming in soon...
  368. # [19:49] <oedipus> KarlD on SMIL3: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0407.html
  369. # [19:50] <oedipus> Dave Singer on SMIL3: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0411.html
  370. # [19:50] <dsinger> we considered the SMIL media tags when doing the proposal, obviously, but the needs are different in SMIL and HTML
  371. # [19:50] <Lachy> DanC: I want to figure out when to publish
  372. # [19:51] <Lachy> DanC: if we said something like 10 times as many yes, as no votes, that would be compelling
  373. # [19:52] <Lachy> Chris: it would depend on the the type of formal objections
  374. # [19:52] <Lachy> Chris: I expect there will be real objections
  375. # [19:52] <Lachy> I expect them too!
  376. # [19:52] <Lachy> DanC: we have to publish, we don't necessarily need 100% concensus
  377. # [19:53] <gsnedders> As I said in my email, I concluded that I doubt we'll ever have consensus, but rather almost always dissent
  378. # [19:53] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  379. # [19:53] <Zakim> agendum 5. "table headers" taken up
  380. # [19:54] <DanC> "We don't build fire stairs just enough to evacuate 80% of the occupants."
  381. # [19:54] <DanC> -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0145.html
  382. # [19:57] <Lachy> DanC: Hixie said he intends to get to this in due course, but I would like to have a schedule
  383. # [19:57] <hsivonen> q+
  384. # [19:57] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  385. # [19:57] * Quits: schepers (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  386. # [19:59] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Quit: http://eric.daspet.name/ - du nouveau sur http://www.paris-web.fr/ ce mois ci, inscrivez vous au RSS)
  387. # [19:59] <DanC> ack hsivonen
  388. # [19:59] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  389. # [20:00] <Lachy> hsivonen: Hixie has implemented the implicit association algorithm, to anylise it's effectiveness
  390. # [20:00] <oedipus> WAI PF Summary of goals for HTML5: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0903.html
  391. # [20:00] <Lachy> hsivonen: the headers issue is a late comer in the first-come-first-serve queue, but he added a note to the draft about it being an open issue
  392. # [20:01] <oedipus> quote To summarize, our goals for HTML 5 are as follow: (1) Support for issues highlighted in Table: 1 of the ARIA Roadmap; (2) Backward compatability to ARIA, including the role attribute. (3) Allow for full interoperability with assistive technologies; (4) A preference for access to accessibility information via the DOM; (5) reduced efforts by authors to support assistive technologies (6) Support for the access element or a version of it. (7) Maintain equ
  393. # [20:01] <oedipus> discussed in http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ARIAIntegration
  394. # [20:01] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  395. # [20:01] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Name for XHTML serialization" taken up
  396. # [20:02] <Lachy> DanC: XHTML2 WG want us to change our name from XHTML, I haven't seen any justifaction
  397. # [20:02] <Lachy> no
  398. # [20:02] <Lachy> no justification
  399. # [20:02] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Connection reset by peer)
  400. # [20:02] <hsivonen> q+
  401. # [20:02] * Zakim sees hsivonen on the speaker queue
  402. # [20:03] <Lachy> We should both just use the name XHTML, changing the name is counter productive
  403. # [20:03] <DanC> ack hsivonen
  404. # [20:03] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  405. # [20:03] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG
  406. # [20:03] * RRSAgent records action 2
  407. # [20:04] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  408. # [20:04] <Lachy> hsivonen: The media type and namespace still need to contain "xhtml", so the name should also be XHTML
  409. # [20:04] <DanC> DanC: yes, the namespace name is a bigger issue.
  410. # [20:04] <oedipus> +1 on namespaces more important issue to address
  411. # [20:04] <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
  412. # [20:04] <Zakim> agendum 7. "Forms Taskforce" taken up
  413. # [20:05] <DanC> (14 volunteers currently at http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform )_
  414. # [20:06] <Lachy> LH: I think it should include people who are very familiar with WF2
  415. # [20:07] <Lachy> LH: I like Hixie, Anne, Mjs, Henri, Matthew Raymond
  416. # [20:07] <Lachy> -1 John Boyer
  417. # [20:07] * DanC checks http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=41565
  418. # [20:07] <oedipus> GJR: john boyer may be one of the 3 from the Forms side
  419. # [20:09] <oedipus> GJR: he may not be on the list, but what about asking TV Raman?
  420. # [20:10] <oedipus> GJR: Raman has experience from both sides
  421. # [20:10] <Lachy> DanC: what about Gregory,
  422. # [20:10] <Lachy> ... Anne and Mjs
  423. # [20:10] <Lachy> ?: I think TV Raman would be an ideal person
  424. # [20:11] <Lachy> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force
  425. # [20:11] * RRSAgent records action 3
  426. # [20:12] <Lachy> s/?/GR/
  427. # [20:12] <hsivonen> Sander Tekelenburg is the active one
  428. # [20:13] <Lachy> DanC: I suppose we could rotate task force members
  429. # [20:14] <DanC> DanC: I'll fill in 2 (Anne, Maciej) and wait on the 3rd
  430. # [20:14] * Quits: drry (drry@211.9.170.176) (Quit: drry)
  431. # [20:14] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  432. # [20:14] <Zakim> agendum 8. "face-to-face meeting 8-9 November" taken up
  433. # [20:15] * DanC wonders if chrisw can see http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/results
  434. # [20:17] * Joins: drry (drry@211.9.170.176)
  435. # [20:17] <DanC> "President's D 66 HTML 50 " -- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/overview.html
  436. # [20:17] <Lachy> DanC: Hixie suggested an unconference style agenda
  437. # [20:17] <Lachy> DanC: that's easier for me
  438. # [20:18] * michael is now known as asdf
  439. # [20:18] <Lachy> ?: I would be comfortable with that for a while, but not the whole time
  440. # [20:18] * asdf is now known as michael
  441. # [20:19] * oedipus lachy that was ChrisW
  442. # [20:19] <Chris> "?" is ChrisWilson
  443. # [20:19] <Lachy> s/?/Chris/
  444. # [20:19] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  445. # [20:19] <Zakim> agendum 9. "Announcement mailing list, RSS feeds" taken up
  446. # [20:20] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/
  447. # [20:20] <Lachy> DanC: I still need to speak with chaals about how to operate the -announcements mailing list
  448. # [20:21] <DanC> [CONTINUES] ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals
  449. # [20:21] <Lachy> DanC: MikeSmith was going to write a summary of the CVS commit changes. Has that happened?
  450. # [20:21] <DanC> progress; still want to noodle with chaals
  451. # [20:21] <Lachy> Chris: I haven't seen it.
  452. # [20:21] <DanC> [CONTINUES] ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go
  453. # [20:22] * Joins: schepers (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  454. # [20:22] <Lachy> DanC: Volunteers are welcome for writing up a summary of changes
  455. # [20:23] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  456. # [20:23] <Zakim> agendum 10. "Wiki Migration" taken up
  457. # [20:23] <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0488.html
  458. # [20:23] <Lachy> DanC: I expect to migrate to MediaWiki, and I'm inclined to have a separate HTMLWG wiki
  459. # [20:23] <Lachy> Chris: that seems like a good idea
  460. # [20:24] <Lachy> why don't we just start using the WHATWG wiki?
  461. # [20:24] <DanC> Zakim, agenda?
  462. # [20:24] <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
  463. # [20:24] <Zakim> 10. Wiki Migration
  464. # [20:24] <DanC> Zakim, close item 10
  465. # [20:24] <Zakim> agendum 10, Wiki Migration, closed
  466. # [20:24] <Zakim> I see nothing remaining on the agenda
  467. # [20:24] <DanC> ADJOURN.
  468. # [20:24] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  469. # [20:24] <Zakim> -Rob_Burns
  470. # [20:24] <dsinger> cheers\
  471. # [20:24] <hsivonen> advance regrets for Aug 30th
  472. # [20:24] <Zakim> -Lachy
  473. # [20:24] <Zakim> -Dave_Singer
  474. # [20:25] <Zakim> -hsivonen
  475. # [20:25] <Zakim> -Marcin_Hanclik
  476. # [20:25] * Quits: dsinger (daithesong@17.202.35.52) (Quit: Leaving)
  477. # [20:25] <DanC> bringing up http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/
  478. # [20:25] * Quits: maha (maha@82.207.140.17) (Quit: $mahaquit)
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  480. # [20:29] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples?action=recall&rev=89
  481. # [20:33] <Lachy> DanC: I definitely think pave the cowpaths should be included in the survey. After I clarified its meaning, it didn't get much objection. Only one person objected, who moved it to the wiki, but that was clearly due to a misunderstanding (see my response in the wiki)
  482. # [20:34] <Lachy> *moved it to the disputed section
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  488. # [20:49] <Zakim> -ChrisW
  489. # [20:49] <Zakim> -DanC
  490. # [20:49] <Zakim> HTML_WG()1:00PM has ended
  491. # [20:49] <Zakim> Attendees were Lachy, DanC, +1.312.933.aaaa, +49.208.8.aabb, Rob_Burns, Gregory_Rosmaita, Marcin_Hanclik, Dave_Singer, ChrisW, hsivonen
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  507. # [22:17] * Philip` wonders why Opera consistently fails to realise the ESW Wiki is UTF-8, and shows the page-trail ">>" characters with A-hats in front of them
  508. # [22:19] <Philip`> Oh, it's because http://www.w3.org/2007/04/wiki/modern/css/screen.css isn't served with a charset, and Opera ignores the charset from <link charset="utf-8" href="..."/>
  509. # [22:28] * DanC reports the screen.css charset problem to an internal support mailing list
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  511. # [22:50] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
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  517. # [23:14] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.104.130)
  518. # [23:15] * DanC waves to mjs
  519. # [23:15] <mjs> hello DanC
  520. # [23:16] <DanC> somebody pointed out that there are lots of links to fragments of the ProposedDesignPrinciples document from other parts of the wiki. that gives me pause
  521. # [23:18] * Quits: kazuhito (kazuhito@222.151.185.252) (Quit: Quitting!)
  522. # [23:19] <DanC> I wonder which people are more comfortable with the "it's a wiki; change it yourself" style vs the mail-changes-to-the-editor style.
  523. # [23:19] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  524. # [23:19] <DanC> the mail-changes-to-the-editor style is more straightforward to manage, in some ways
  525. # [23:20] <DanC> just to be arbitrary and capricious, I'll pick on you, kingryan . What do you think about design principles collaboration logistics at this point?
  526. # [23:21] * Joins: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230)
  527. # [23:23] <DanC> why are we debating whether alt is required under the subject "Baby Steps or Backwards Steps"? surely "mandating img/@alt" or some such would be better? or "cost-effectiveness of mandating alt attributes on img"
  528. # [23:23] <gsnedders> I prefer the latter option (having an editor)
  529. # [23:24] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  530. # [23:25] <DanC> ok, good to know... any other preferences?
  531. # [23:25] * Joins: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198)
  532. # [23:25] <kingryan> DanC: for consensus building types of documents like that, it easier to have fewer editors
  533. # [23:26] <kingryan> the "ETFW" approach (http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/08/18/etfw/) tends to work better when there's an objective answer to what should be on the page
  534. # [23:26] <DanC> ok good. I like it when the universe offers consistent advice.
  535. # [23:26] <kingryan> like wikipedia
  536. # [23:27] <DanC> right; wiki works best when there's a consensus that just needs to be written down
  537. # [23:28] <DanC> ok; Anne is on holiday, I gather. mjs, do you know when he gets back?
  538. # [23:28] * DanC wonders why he hasn't bumped into chaals lately
  539. # [23:29] <Philip`> It seems that Wikipedia fails worst when there isn't an objective answer, and the same would apply to any wiki that doesn't have significantly different editorial rules or culture
  540. # [23:29] <mjs> DanC: in meeting at the moment, will read scrollback later
  541. # [23:29] <DanC> ah. ok.
  542. # [23:30] <mjs> DanC: (< 30 min)
  543. # [23:30] <kingryan> DanC: fwiw, we've taken both approaches with the mf.org wiki
  544. # [23:30] <kingryan> some areas are mostly "editor only"
  545. # [23:30] <kingryan> while others are "anyone can edit"
  546. # [23:32] * DanC tunes into http://webkit.org/blog/
  547. # [23:32] <DanC> darn; new stuff there that I haven't seen. why isn't it on planet html5?
  548. # [23:34] <hsivonen> considering disputes, I'd prefer to have mjs as a gatekeeper instead of anything goes wiki edits
  549. # [23:34] <gavin> I agree
  550. # [23:36] <DanC> hmm... "the block flow child invariant" ... I didn't realize that showed up in rendering code; that makes the HTML 5 constraint seem a little less arbitrary
  551. # [23:36] * Quits: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230) (Quit: Roger)
  552. # [23:39] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.104.130) (Ping timeout)
  553. # [23:40] <DanC> hmm.. "We use regression testing to maintain our compatibility gains." , plus Open Source in http://webkit.org/projects/goals.html . I wonder if we can make use of those tests for HTML WG work.
  554. # [23:40] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  555. # [23:41] * DanC checks the time in japan... 6:41am ... wonders how much of karl's brain is connected to his IRC client
  556. # [23:44] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.255.98.64)
  557. # [23:44] * karl 's brain is in the shower. (hmmm too much information) in the process of going to Keio
  558. # [23:49] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.106.86)
  559. # [23:49] <Philip`> http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200708/the_html_5_circus_why_i_left_and_rejoined_the_w3c_html_working_group/ - "I think my energy will be best spent helping to produce documents that are useful to and readable by people who create websites" sounds good
  560. # [23:50] <mjs> DanC: back
  561. # [23:51] <mjs> DanC: the wiki style was good for brainstorming and initial development, but I think have editors helps in two ways:
  562. # [23:51] * Quits: edas (edaspet@88.191.34.123) (Ping timeout)
  563. # [23:51] * DanC is pretty much sold already
  564. # [23:51] <mjs> 1) it doesn't seem to fit well with the w3c process to turn a wiki page directly into a Working Group technical report
  565. # [23:52] <mjs> 2) wikis are good for recording information, but not so good for resolving disputes
  566. # [23:52] <mjs> DanC: but I am going to do my best to distill the contents of the wiki into usable feedback in any case
  567. # [23:54] <DanC> but it seems like the time is now to put something at the top of the wiki page to say "this document is moving out of the wiki; please mail change requests to public-html@w3.org" or "... please see _a message about change requests_"
  568. # [23:56] * DanC updates http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ to point to http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=HEAD
  569. # [23:57] <DanC> the status of that document should have a pointer back to the wiki copy
  570. # [23:57] <mjs> DanC: ok, I'll add cross-links
  571. # Session Close: Fri Aug 17 00:00:00 2007

The end :)