/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-18 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 18 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:09] <gsnedders> DanC: ditto. I'm sure I've done that several times.
  4. # [00:10] <gsnedders> at least once with HTML5 I've loaded the spec, tested current UAs for a part of it, then sent it off (all in the space of an hour), to find Hixie has already fixed the issues
  5. # [00:11] <DanC> I don't think that's what he means by fantasy problems.
  6. # [00:11] <DanC> I had in mind more architecture astronaut sorts of things.
  7. # [00:13] * DanC is about done for the day
  8. # [00:15] <Philip`> "No one joins a WG and volunteers their time to solve fantasy problems. Yet this design principle suggests that they might." - is it different to how "Support World Languages" suggests that someone might join a WG and try to make it support only English and stop supporting other languages?
  9. # [00:16] <Philip`> (I think they probably are different but I can't work out why I think that...)
  10. # [00:17] <gsnedders> DanC: I know, that just another comment related to useless things
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  14. # [01:09] <zcorpan_> what does "assigning new NCName facilities into HTML." mean?
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  31. # [05:22] <Hixie> DanC: yeah, i couldn't work out how to restate it (i stared at it for like 10 minutes before saying "oh well" and sending it without a suggestion)
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  45. # [09:15] <hsivonen> Regarding fantasy problems: the thing is people do try to solve them. sometimes the problems aren't 100% fantasy, but common sense says they aren't real problems. Examples: 1) "search engines could" (this is a common one), 2) suggesting new markup to support letter-duplicating Swedish hyphenation, 3) &auml; and other *uml entities are biased towards German and need politically correct aliases for other languages
  46. # [09:16] <hsivonen> 2 & 3 are not my straw men but stuff from the WHATWG list. I couldn't make them up.
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  48. # [09:48] <Zeros> hsivonen, politically correct...
  49. # [09:53] <hsivonen> Zeros: ?
  50. # [09:53] <Zeros> just very interesting, and slightly funny.
  51. # [09:54] <hsivonen> Zeros: note that I picked #3, because my native language is one of the languages supposedly suffering from the German bias, and I can say with utmost confidence that the German-influence mnemonics are Not A Real Problem for Finns
  52. # [09:55] <Zeros> ah. I'll take your word for it. I've never quite thought about bias in entity names.
  53. # [10:07] <Lachy> how can an entity name possibly be bias? Do non-German people use alternative names for the same character or something?
  54. # [10:25] <hsivonen> Lachy: what are called umlauts in German aren't called umlauts in the context of other languages
  55. # [10:25] <hsivonen> but that's just a good reuse of characters
  56. # [10:26] <Lachy> what other name are they called, in Finnish, for instance?
  57. # [10:27] <hsivonen> off the top of my head, I can't think of English and French sharing any vowel sounds when pronounced correctly, but it would be silly if French and English couldn't reuse the same Latin characters
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  59. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: 'ä' is called "ää" and 'ö' is called "öö" :-)
  60. # [10:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: that's like asking what is 'a' called in English
  61. # [10:28] <robburns> hsivonen: hi
  62. # [10:28] <hsivonen> robburns: hi
  63. # [10:29] <hsivonen> Lachy: vowels in Finnish don't have names beyond the long pronunciation of the vowel
  64. # [10:29] <robburns> hsivonen: those are good examples of what I was talking about. I don't know what you mean on (1). But (2) and (3) look to me about solving real problems. But then you're just disparaging them in various ways (including calling them not real problems or fantasy problems.
  65. # [10:30] <Lachy> ok
  66. # [10:30] <hsivonen> robburns: well, if they are problems, they are problems seriously not worth solving in HTML
  67. # [10:30] <robburns> hsivonen: That's not to say that we need chose entity names in HTML, but excluding them would have to be for other reasons and principles because they do solve a problem.
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  69. # [10:31] <robburns> hsivonen: Those are the types of things for the WG to decide.
  70. # [10:31] <robburns> hsivonen: what did you mean in (1)
  71. # [10:31] <robburns> ?
  72. # [10:31] <hsivonen> robburns: well, let's say the threshold of what is a "problem" needs to be way higher than calling ä auml being allegedly insensitive
  73. # [10:31] <Lachy> robburns, I don't understand what problem is solved by inventing a new entity name to represent the same character?
  74. # [10:32] <hsivonen> robburns: people who don't implement search engines often say that this or that would help search engines when search engine developers are not asking for that kind of help
  75. # [10:32] <robburns> hsivonen I see
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  77. # [10:32] <hsivonen> robburns: in some cases, the alleged "help" would have to be ignored by search engines due to spam considerations
  78. # [10:33] <robburns> hsivonen: Maybe its the users that it would help (regardless of what the engine developers do)
  79. # [10:34] <Lachy> some of the search engine arguments are related to use on intranet search engines, where spam is much less of a problem
  80. # [10:34] <hsivonen> robburns: if seach engines ignore something, that something isn't helping search engine users
  81. # [10:34] <Lachy> but that still doesn't solve the problem of actually getting authors to provide additional, explicity metadata or whatever else is being proposed.
  82. # [10:34] <robburns> hsivonen: In any event that would be another good example then. That's where the problem with the suggestion is not that its not trying to solve a real problem. Rather the solution has problems that cannot be overcome that way. Again, this misguided principle can only be used to stifle deliberations and not really help them.
  83. # [10:36] <robburns> Lachy: However, the metadata problem is something that may enterprises are looking to solve. Its not something that HTML alone has to solve. But making a place for it in HTML would be a good idea as solutions are found elsewhere
  84. # [10:36] <robburns> s/may/many
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  86. # [10:36] <hsivonen> robburns: deliberating nonsense is not a good use of the WGs time
  87. # [10:37] <hsivonen> robburns: which is why people shouldn't try to dig up problems to solve
  88. # [10:37] <robburns> hsivonen: calling things nonsense doesn't help the deliberation process either
  89. # [10:37] <hsivonen> robburns: and should instead listen what the supposed sufferers from the problems actually suffer from
  90. # [10:39] <robburns> hsivonen: I imagine most participants don't dig up problems to solve. They encounter problems in their everyday life, or they hear about problems others encounter. When they get here, they try to articulate those problems (often jumping to solutions too quickly). However, we'll be much more productive if we try to ferret-out what the problems are then simply dismissing them as nonsense.
  91. # [10:40] <Lachy> robburns, some people think they're solving real problems, but stumble as soon as somone asks them to provide a real example of where that problem is encountered and the existing solutions they've attempted
  92. # [10:42] <hsivonen> another example of not solving real problems in standardization that hits close to home is ISO-8859-15. It is supposed to address the needs of the Finnish and French languages. however, it is a 100% policitical beast and it has been nothing but expense to everyone.
  93. # [10:43] <hsivonen> even if there's a grain of truth in the problem statement, the problem--to the extent there was a problem--was already solved by Windows-1252 and UTF-8
  94. # [10:43] <hsivonen> but ISO-8859-15 kept being implemented, because it was about internationalization
  95. # [10:44] <hsivonen> and people are afraid to call the BS on internationalization issues, because they are afraid of being labeled insensitive or even racist
  96. # [10:44] <hsivonen> I'm a Finn myself, so I have no problem calling the BS on ISO-8859-15
  97. # [10:44] <robburns> Lachy: they may stumble. Or they may just think the responses are inappropriate. We all come from different backgrounds. No one in this WG should have to jump through extra hoops just to document a problem immediately. Discussion can go on that shapes what the problem is and how other s perceive the problems before we pursue formal exploration of the problem. So many of the problems the draft is trying to address remain a mystery. Many of the requests fo
  98. # [10:45] <hsivonen> seeing these Finnish-related Not Real Problems, I have to assume that there are other alleged internationalization and accessibility "problems" that don't really need solving, but people are too afraid to call the BS
  99. # [10:46] <hsivonen> robburns: you got cut off at "Many of the requests fo"
  100. # [10:49] <robburns> hsivonen: You can call them BS. That's one approach. You can call them unreal problems too. However, it doesn't really serve much purpose. I agree with you about Unicode (I'm not sure why we need Windows 1252 either). However, someone must have a problem with Unicode. so they needs a solution that's not Unicode and not Windows 1252. That's not to say it should spark the interest of everyone else and maybe the suggestion should just die a quick and pain
  101. # [10:51] <robburns> hsivonen : "Many of the requests for research look to me also designed to stifle discussions"
  102. # [10:52] <hsivonen> robburns: yes, few people have the resources to produce research, but wildly speculating without it does not help
  103. # [10:52] <hsivonen> robburns: you got cut off at "should just die a quick and pain"
  104. # [10:52] <robburns> hsivonen: "should just die a quick and painless death. But calling it BS or calling it fantasy are completely counter-productive. Trying to penetrate what the problem is that cannot be solved by Unicode is a productive use of time (it may very well lead to the solution that Unicode should be used instead)."
  105. # [10:55] <robburns> hsivonen: However, it could also lead to a problem that cannot be solved by Unicode (after all our draft includes Windows 1252, but why bother with that anymore than ISO 8859-15)?
  106. # [10:56] <hsivonen> robburns: fwiw, in the case of ISO-8859-15 and Finnish, the "problem" is something that is addressed by Unicode, but the point is that the additional characters aren't something that a literate man on the street in Finland yearns for but something that theorists in a language institute came up with
  107. # [10:58] <robburns> hsivonen: I would imagine one could say that about much of Unicode. However, those characters that some theorists in a language institute came up with will help facilitate international languages. Maybe ASCII and English are the only things anyone should ever use, but I think its nice to know we have a standard that can support even the most obscure writing systems.
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  109. # [11:00] <hsivonen> robburns: see, that kind of talk about "international languages" is the kind of political correctness I'm talking about
  110. # [11:00] <hsivonen> robburns: first, by "international", you mean "foreign"
  111. # [11:00] <robburns> hsivonen: how is it political correctness?
  112. # [11:00] <hsivonen> robburns: many languages are *national*
  113. # [11:01] <hsivonen> robburns: you are erring on the side of going with the theorists just in case, because you are unfamiliar with the issue
  114. # [11:01] <robburns> hsivonen: How so?
  115. # [11:03] <robburns> hsivonen: I'm more leaning towards the side of wide-spread support for languages because it leverages the work already done for other languages. Once Unicode needs to support certain algorithms for collation and bidi text ,etc. Its easy to add characters in new writing systems. There are tremendous economies of scale
  116. # [11:04] <hsivonen> robburns: you are missing my point
  117. # [11:05] <hsivonen> --> lunch
  118. # [11:05] <robburns> hsivonen: I imagine every once in a while Unicode encounters a new language where the existing specification cannot quite support the new language. Then there's a significant barrier to adding that new writing system. Any other additions are basically a matter of deliberation (what should be unified and dis-unified, what should be composite and what should not, etc.)
  119. # [11:06] <robburns> hsivonen: OK
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  195. # [22:56] <Philip`> http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/doc/table-cellmap.html - seems odd to have a "ref XHTML-2.0" in there
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  204. # Session Close: Sun Aug 19 00:00:00 2007

The end :)