/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:05] <anne> ouch, <ruby> & co seem kind of crappy in IE
  4. # [00:06] <anne> although I guess it's not much different from IEs other quirks
  5. # [00:06] <Philip`> Does it have problems which authors care about?
  6. # [00:06] <anne> more how things like a single space between an <rt> pair changes rendering completely
  7. # [00:07] <anne> I suppose you could encounter that in automatically generated content
  8. # [00:08] <anne> besides that <rt>, <rp> and <ruby> make for a mall-formed tree and <rp> and <rt> are only correctly parsed inside <ruby>
  9. # [00:11] <anne> hmm, twitter doesn't escape &: http://twitter.com/annevk/statuses/216739552
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  13. # [01:27] <Philip`> Is there some example of why <link hreflang> is useful?
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  23. # [03:08] <Philip`> Hmph, the mail archives slightly misaligned my beautiful ASCII art :-(
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  61. # [07:26] <mjs> I'm surprised that all the principles seem to have a large majority in favor, even as written
  62. # [07:26] <mjs> I expected some to be more controversial
  63. # [07:28] <karl> mjs: I haven't yet replied ;)
  64. # [07:29] <mjs> karl: it's possible that remaining replies will be massively against the current direction of the survey, but I'd be surprised
  65. # [07:29] <mjs> nearly every principle has at least one person who disagrees though
  66. # [07:33] * karl is looking at the survey
  67. # [07:33] <karl> hmmm it will take a lot of time to reply
  68. # [07:33] <karl> *sigh*
  69. # [07:34] <karl> I wonder if it's my nordman nature... :) Already at the first principle, I have a "yes and no" I strongly agree and strongly disagree at the same time.
  70. # [07:34] <karl> it depends on the context.
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  72. # [07:52] * karl is reading the HTML design principles which are in fact browsers design principles.
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  74. # [07:52] <karl> I try to find other ways to write the sentences
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  80. # [08:35] <karl> do we have a document with all the HTML 5 features into it?
  81. # [08:35] <karl> I mean for markup only
  82. # [08:36] <mjs> you mean a list of tags and attributes?
  83. # [08:36] <karl> no no
  84. # [08:36] <karl> I mean an HTML 5 document with all possible tags
  85. # [08:36] <karl> and attributes
  86. # [08:36] <mjs> oh
  87. # [08:36] <mjs> I don't know of one
  88. # [08:36] <karl> not necessary all combinations
  89. # [08:36] <karl> but at least all elements used
  90. # [08:37] <karl> so it would help to test how authoring tools behave when they are fed with foreign markup
  91. # [08:37] <karl> with regards to the "2.2. Degrade Gracefully"
  92. # [08:38] <karl> "foreign" as in not in previous version of HTML
  93. # [08:38] <mjs> interesting thought
  94. # [08:38] <mjs> though I think it might be necessary to take it on a case-by-case basis
  95. # [08:39] <karl> yes I guess. There are some more complicated cases. It could help also to define a basic CSS for HTML 5
  96. # [08:39] <mjs> since for many things the downlevel strategy involves using stylesheets or even scripts for best behavior
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  100. # [09:17] * karl sees that the sniffing algorithm doesn't rely at all on the file extension
  101. # [09:17] <karl> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#content-type-sniffing
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  143. # [16:18] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/mid/740E319B-8E5C-427C-8214-5C84754A162E@robburns.com -- if we pass all his tests, then his tests aren't evil enough ;)
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  145. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> hmm, they're indeed not evil at all
  146. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> more demos than test cases
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  150. # [16:47] <robburns> zcorpan: well maybe from Opera's point-of-view those are demos but from IE7 point-of-view those are definitely test cases.
  151. # [16:48] <zcorpan_> robburns: i don't see any pass conditions
  152. # [16:48] <robburns> zcorpan: but Opera (and iCab) definitely deserve kudos there
  153. # [16:48] <robburns> zcorpan_do you mean in he document itself?
  154. # [16:49] <zcorpan_> robburns: yes
  155. # [16:49] <robburns> zcorpan_it wasn't meant to be a formal test-case for our test suite (though I suppose it might inspire someting)
  156. # [16:50] <robburns> zcorpan: more a instrument for discussion about the draft (test suites should be produced from the draft I think)
  157. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> robburns: ok. it would be good to have them written as actual test cases. i'll probably be looking into writing test cases on object in due course as well
  158. # [16:52] <robburns> zcorpan: well feel free to draw on my feeble start
  159. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> i already have some tests at http://simon.html5.org/test/html/embedded/ but those are specifically testing http resonse codes
  160. # [16:54] * zcorpan_ needs to extend that suite to test svg in due course as well. but it's not clear to me what should happen with svg actually
  161. # [16:55] <zcorpan_> perhaps now would be a good time to look into <object> actually
  162. # [16:55] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/earlsum.py - yay, (X)HTML generation via string concatenation :-)
  163. # [16:56] <zcorpan_> Philip`: effective isn't it :)
  164. # [16:57] * zcorpan_ notes that http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker uses string concatenation aswell
  165. # [16:59] * Philip` does http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref.html with string concatenation then passed into html5lib and DOM-manipulated a bit then serialised
  166. # [17:02] <zcorpan_> Philip`: nice!
  167. # [17:45] <DanC> string concatenation is the obvious quick-n-dirty approach, no? I usually migrate to genshi if the code proves to be of long-term value.
  168. # [17:47] <DanC> in this case, the output gets manually pasted into a page, and XML-wf-ness is checked at that point.
  169. # [17:47] <DanC> but yes, the code has known latent bugs:
  170. # [17:47] <DanC> print '<cite>%s</cite>' % \
  171. # [17:47] <DanC> (kb.objects(subject=term, predicate=DC['title']).next(),) #@@escaping
  172. # [17:50] <Philip`> I just don't really understand the "well-formed XML is easy, you just have to use anything other than string concatenation" argument for XML, since string concatenation is the easiest approach and if the technology doesn't support that then it's not nearly as easy
  173. # [17:53] <Philip`> (...Maybe I'm misunderstanding/misrepresenting the argument, though)
  174. # [17:53] * gsnedders realises he didn't note what he sent as a spec review. meh.
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  177. # [18:15] <Lachy> Philip`, string concatenation for XML is dangerous because it makes it too easy for a mistake to be made, like letting an unencoded ampersand or unclosed element slip through
  178. # [18:16] <Lachy> it happens quite often in a situation where someone naively does xml = "<p>" + userInput + "</p>"
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  180. # [18:22] <Philip`> That's why I think "you're a bozo if you make ill-formed XML" should be a criticism of the language rather than of the author - string concatenation is clearly something that authors want to do, and XML does a good job of nearly supporting them (particularly compared to e.g. any binary format) but falls short of actually working reliably in practice
  181. # [18:23] <zcorpan_> XML5 supports string concatenation :)
  182. # [18:24] <zcorpan_> Philip`: your html5 reference document is really good
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  184. # [18:26] <zcorpan_> Philip`: having the content model would be good too. i think some conformance reqs for authors aren't in there either, which would be good to have as well... :)
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  186. # [18:30] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you should get it announced
  187. # [18:31] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I've uploaded a version that lists which elements can be contained in each element
  188. # [18:32] <Philip`> It's missing stuff about the order of elements, and won't cope properly with things like prose elements, but that can be fixed in the future :-)
  189. # [18:32] <zcorpan_> yeah. i'm very impressed
  190. # [18:32] <zcorpan_> this is exactly the sort of thing people have been asking for
  191. # [18:32] <matt> Quick question, just noticed that the archives link (the second one to the whatwg mailing list) in the SotD is 404, can someone fix that?
  192. # [18:33] <Philip`> I intentionally skipped some conformance requirements (like, who would ever care that you mustn't use BOCU-1? Just use UTF-8 and don't worry about pointless complexity), but the rest ought to correspond to the spec, but I've not been trying hard to get all the technical details right yet
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  194. # [18:34] <Philip`> I'm mostly just trying to play around with it to see what's useful (and preferably what doesn't involve too much hard work)
  195. # [18:34] <zcorpan_> ah. yep. indeed all conf reqs probably aren't needed in the reference document
  196. # [18:35] <Philip`> but I'm probably not very good at judging "useful", except to the extent that I know I prefer looking at the HTML4 spec rather than the HTML5 one when trying to write web pages
  197. # [18:35] <Philip`> matt: SotD?
  198. # [18:36] <zcorpan_> saying where <base> is allowed is probably worth it though :)
  199. # [18:36] <matt> Sorry, S.tatus o.f t.he D.ocument
  200. # [18:37] <Philip`> zcorpan_: As in <base> with no attributes? Isn't that totally pointless? :-)
  201. # [18:37] <zcorpan_> Philip`: no, <base> in general
  202. # [18:38] <zcorpan_> Philip`: it has to come after the charset decl but before anything else
  203. # [18:38] <Philip`> Oops, I missed the "where" in your statement
  204. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> or actually, the spec conflicts itself on that point
  205. # [18:39] <Philip`> The spec seems rather confusing about what order the head stuff is allowed in
  206. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> yeah
  207. # [18:39] <zcorpan_> <noscript> makes it even more confusing
  208. # [18:40] * Philip` is trying to avoid confusing things for now :-p
  209. # [18:40] <zcorpan_> matt: it's not a 404 for me?
  210. # [18:40] <Philip`> At least it seems clear that <base target> should be before anything with URIs
  211. # [18:41] <matt> Philip`: The second archive link? http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/ ?
  212. # [18:41] <Philip`> zcorpan_: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ -> "whatwg@whatwg.org (... archives)" is what's broken
  213. # [18:41] <Hixie> matt: send mail, i'll fix it when i see your mail
  214. # [18:41] <matt> Hixie: Sure thing, thanks.
  215. # [18:42] <zcorpan_> Philip`: aha. i looked at the whatwg version... :)
  216. # [18:42] * matt wasn't sure of the process, got pointed me here.
  217. # [18:42] <zcorpan_> Philip`: <base href> is clear too if you ignore what "Contexts in which this element may be used:" says
  218. # [18:43] <Philip`> Whoops, I meant <base href> instead of <base target>
  219. # [18:43] <zcorpan_> "A base element, if it has a target attribute, must come before any elements in the tree that represent hyperlinks."
  220. # [18:44] <Philip`> Incidentally, is there any value in not allowing <base href="..."><base target="..."> in one document? Base href and base target seem like largely distinct concepts, so it would make sense to allow distinct elements for them
  221. # [18:44] <zcorpan_> but <link>s don't use target. so i don't understand why that is a requirement
  222. # [18:46] * zcorpan_ dislikes xml:* attributes
  223. # [18:46] * zcorpan_ doesn't want more of them
  224. # [18:48] <zcorpan_> i'd rather if attributes named "id" were of type ID, and attributes named "class" were white-space separated classes. regardless of what element they were part of
  225. # [18:48] <zcorpan_> actually. same for lang
  226. # [18:48] <zcorpan_> but it's probably too late now
  227. # [18:48] * Philip` just adds "The <base> element must be placed before any elements that have attributes with URIs" for now, since that's not technically true but it's safe enough and less confusing and no less useful than the truth
  228. # [18:50] <Philip`> (and there's plenty of time to argue about details and precision in the future, but I'm in the control of the document for now and I don't care ;-) )
  229. # [18:50] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ : given the XML constraints on characters in IDs, I'm not sure how much value there is in processing apps knowing which attributes are type ID anyway
  230. # [18:52] <MikeSmith> There are cases where I'd rather the apps didn't know, so that they didn't do constraint checking against the ID values, and emit fatal errors when the ID values don't meet those (unnecessary) constraints
  231. # [18:53] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: i don't see why the constraints are relevant. you want to know which attribute is of type ID for the purpose of Selectors, getElementsByClassName, etc
  232. # [18:53] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: IDs that don't meet the constraints aren't fatal
  233. # [18:54] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: however, if we were to change XML at all, we could just remove the arbitrary constraints (like html5 has done)
  234. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ - some XML processing apps do character checking for xml:id values
  235. # [18:55] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: really? xml:id says, iirc, that violations of the constraints aren't fatal
  236. # [18:55] <MikeSmith> and fail if they find characters that aren't allowed by NCName BNF
  237. # [18:58] <zcorpan_> "The xml:id processor performs ID type assignment on all xml:id attributes, even those that do not satisfy the constraints."
  238. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ - I don't know about xml:id spec itself, but I think XML spec requires ID values to match the "Name" productions
  239. # [19:00] <MikeSmith> production
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  241. # [19:07] <MikeSmith> gsnedders - I would doubt there is any confusion among implementors about what "ordered list" means, so really wonder if there's any value in trying to define in more precisely
  242. # [19:18] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: violations to xml 1.0 dtd IDs are validation errors, not fatal errors
  243. # [19:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan_ - ah, Ok
  244. # [19:21] <MikeSmith> I thought it counted as a well-formedness error, but I guess not
  245. # [19:22] <zcorpan_> nope... :)
  246. # [19:24] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#id
  247. # [19:26] * Quits: schepers (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  248. # [19:27] <MikeSmith> I see. "Validity constraint". But I guess that makes sense because the idea was that the app needs access to the DTD to be able to know attributes are type ID
  249. # [19:27] <zcorpan_> yeah
  250. # [19:28] <MikeSmith> but I thought the part of the intent of creating xml:id was to be able to enforce those same constaints without needing access to a schema
  251. # [19:28] <zcorpan_> aiui, the intent of creating xml:id was to be able to do ID assignment without DTDs
  252. # [19:29] <MikeSmith> OK
  253. # [19:29] <zcorpan_> anyway, gotta go
  254. # [19:29] * zcorpan_ waves
  255. # [19:30] <MikeSmith> cheers
  256. # [19:32] <MikeSmith> hmm, so I read the xml:id spec and find that it says, "An xml:id processor must assure that the following constraints hold for all xml:id attributes: ... The normalized value of the attribute is an NCName..."
  257. # [19:32] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  258. # [19:33] <MikeSmith> but then it also says, "A violation of the constraints in this specification results in an xml:id error. Such errors are not fatal..."
  259. # [19:34] <MikeSmith> So I'm not sure what "must assure" means in that case.
  260. # [19:37] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.195) (Connection reset by peer)
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  263. # [19:41] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: you could argue that any list has an order.
  264. # [19:42] * Joins: briansuda (briansuda@85.220.84.60)
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  269. # [20:10] <Philip`> "a theory that all users are too dumb to handle errors" - are there citable usability studies that demonstrate what proportion of users are too 'dumb'?
  270. # [20:27] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
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  280. # [21:31] <Hixie> hey is there someone who can hook me up with putting a page up on the w3.org site?
  281. # [21:31] <Hixie> karl?
  282. # [21:53] * matt just got off teleconf that had DanC... perhaps he can help?
  283. # [21:55] <DanC> hi Hixie . what sort of page?
  284. # [22:08] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.224)
  285. # [22:11] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.111.159) (Ping timeout)
  286. # [22:12] <Philip`> Would it be helpful to have a plain non-dynamic version of the issues list?
  287. # [22:14] <zcorpan_> Philip`: yep, i think it would. a script that updates the list every once in a while (like once a day or something). it would also be directly searchable
  288. # [22:18] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@17.203.15.154)
  289. # [22:21] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/ is quite totally minimal, but seems to work
  290. # [22:21] <Philip`> (It doesn't do any caching or anything)
  291. # [22:22] <Philip`> (nor voting)
  292. # [22:23] <zcorpan_> nice
  293. # [22:24] <gsnedders> can we have a way to expand everything?
  294. # [22:24] <Philip`> (nor top-emails list)
  295. # [22:24] <Philip`> gsnedders: All emails in one folder, or emails in all folders?
  296. # [22:24] <gsnedders> Philip`: both, ideally, but really the latter
  297. # [22:25] * Philip` wonders if the server minds getting several thousand requests to generate one page
  298. # [22:25] <Philip`> Hmm, I suppose that's what caching is for
  299. # [22:27] <zcorpan_> hm. <div> should be allowed to be a root element, just like <html>. mostly for compound documents
  300. # [22:28] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: I thought last time it came up you said any element
  301. # [22:29] <zcorpan_> gsnedders: i did? :)
  302. # [22:30] <gsnedders> zcorpan_: someone did. I think you.
  303. # [22:30] <zcorpan_> could well be, don't remember
  304. # [22:36] <Hixie> Philip`: feel free to do that if you're caching and not hitting it more than once every 24h (it regens around 4am my time each day)
  305. # [22:36] <Hixie> DanC: a frameset that embeds the whatwg.org/issues page
  306. # [22:36] <Hixie> DanC: to satisfy the people who refuse to type in whatwg.org urls
  307. # [22:37] <DanC> er... less than inspiring
  308. # [22:37] <Hixie> ok well i'll let you deal with the people who aren't happy about my making the issues list available then :-)
  309. # [22:37] <DanC> I'm interested to learn more about that issue list, but the domain name of it is about the last thing I'm interested to worry about
  310. # [22:38] <Hixie> i agree
  311. # [22:38] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder_expand/WF3-placeholder shows all the messages from one folder
  312. # [22:38] * Hixie is tired of people whining and not fixing their own problems
  313. # [22:38] <Philip`> (The message bodies get cached for infinity or until my /tmp is emptied)
  314. # [22:38] <Philip`> (since I assume they're never going to change)
  315. # [22:38] * Hixie points at Philip` as an example of someone who clearly is a more productive member of the working group than the whiners in question
  316. # [22:38] <Hixie> Philip`: i'll let you know if i have any reason to believe they'll change
  317. # [22:39] <DanC> expectation is powerful.
  318. # [22:39] <Philip`> Oh, I suppose they might change if you start decoding the =3Ds and stuff
  319. # [22:39] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, that's the only reason i can think of
  320. # [22:39] <Philip`> in which case I'll just have to try to work out where the cache file is being stored
  321. # [22:39] <DanC> oops; I think I misread "they" in "they'll change"
  322. # [22:39] <Hixie> and i don't plan on doing that any time soon
  323. # [22:42] <DanC> I see a "... should be hosted by W3.Org..." message from Philip TAYLOR... is that you, Philip` ?
  324. # [22:42] <Hixie> no
  325. # [22:42] <Hixie> it's the Other one
  326. # [22:42] <Hixie> you can tell them apart because the productive Philip` doesn't capitalise domain names
  327. # [22:42] * DanC wishes for an easier way to correlate IRC nicks here with http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&public=1
  328. # [22:42] <Hixie> though they both have multiple e-mail addresses, which makes things fun
  329. # [22:43] <DanC> I'd appreciate if people would share full names in their /whois info
  330. # [22:44] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  331. # [22:44] <Philip`> DanC: Hmm, I would set my name in /whois if I happened to know how :-)
  332. # [22:45] <Philip`> but that wouldn't help in this case since I'd still have the same name as Philip TAYLOR except with fewer capitals
  333. # [22:45] <gavin_> most IRC clients allow you to set a "realname" somewhere in the options
  334. # [22:46] <Hixie> to set your realname in irsii...
  335. # [22:46] <Hixie> irssi even
  336. # [22:46] <Hixie> hmm
  337. # [22:46] <Hixie> i've done it, must be possible!
  338. # [22:46] <hendry> :)
  339. # [22:46] <gavin_> /set real_name foo
  340. # [22:46] <Hixie> aha
  341. # [22:46] <gavin_> (in irssi)
  342. # [22:47] <Hixie> there ya go
  343. # [22:48] <DanC> your surname is also Taylor, Philip` ?
  344. # [22:48] <gsnedders> DanC: there are three Phillip Taylors' in the WG, Philip` is one of them
  345. # [22:48] <Hixie> yeah, there's two of them, both of which use two e-mail addresses each. the more productive one (Philip` on IRC) doesn't capitalise domain names.
  346. # [22:49] <Hixie> i thought there were two
  347. # [22:49] <Hixie> i'm pretty sure we established the other day that there were actually two, spread over 4 e-mail addresses
  348. # [22:49] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  349. # [22:49] <gsnedders> is (Webmaster) the same?
  350. # [22:49] <Hixie> (Webmaster) is the other one
  351. # [22:49] <gsnedders> I mean TAYLOR (Webmaster) and TAYLOR
  352. # [22:49] <Hixie> right, both of those are the one that capitalises domain names
  353. # [22:50] <gsnedders> same guy? I didn't realise.
  354. # [22:50] <Hixie> yeah
  355. # [22:50] <gavin_> perhaps we can convince them to use "Bill" and "Bob"? ;)
  356. # [22:50] <gsnedders> Bob`: hi
  357. # [22:50] <gsnedders> :P
  358. # [22:50] <Hixie> they distinguish themselves in two pretty obvious ways already
  359. # [22:50] <DanC> I'm composing mail to Philip Taylor (Webmaster) <P.Taylor@Rhul.Ac.Uk> about "... should be hosted by W3.Org ...". it's process discussion, which I'm trying to get off the main list. should I (a) send off-list myself, or (b) send on public-html and repeat my "please start process threads offlist" request? hmm... that request could apply to the message that Hixie sent that started the thread
  360. # [22:50] <Hixie> one is that they capitalise domain names differently
  361. # [22:51] <gsnedders> DanC: I'd say offlist. You've said it on list enough times.
  362. # [22:51] <Hixie> DanC: mine wasn't process, just an announcement :-) though maybe i should have used public-html-announce, i forgot about that.
  363. # [22:51] <DanC> hmm... it seems like process to me.
  364. # [22:52] <DanC> I think only the chairs can send to the announce list, so far
  365. # [22:52] <hober> Do we have to subscribe to public-html-announce separately, or did every WG participant get automagically signed up?
  366. # [22:52] <DanC> automagically, I'm pretty sure
  367. # [22:52] <Hixie> DanC: how is it process? *confused*
  368. # [22:52] <gsnedders> automagically.
  369. # [22:52] <Philip`> DanC: It is [my surname]
  370. # [22:52] <Hixie> DanC: oh you mean my reply!
  371. # [22:52] <Philip`> I think I might have set it in /whois now...
  372. # [22:52] <gsnedders> public-html-comments is not automagic
  373. # [22:52] <Hixie> DanC: i thought you meant the original e-mail
  374. # [22:52] <Hixie> DanC: yeah the reply was sent to the list because i didn't notice that Steve had changed the cc: from www-archive to public-html
  375. # [22:52] <DanC> your announcement about seeing the issues list didn't say "the design of HTML 5 should be thus..."; so it seems like process.
  376. # [22:53] <Hixie> um ok
  377. # [22:54] <DanC> I'm asking people to send process, i.e. stuff about how we work, to me/www-archive first. I would have encouraged you to send that one to public-html anyway, most likely
  378. # [22:54] <matt> Looks like there's: "Philip Taylor (Webmaster)" <P.Taylor@Rhul.Ac.Uk> "Philip Taylor" <excors@gmail.com> Philip TAYLOR <Philip-and-LeKhanh@Royal-Tunbridge-Wells.Org> Philip Taylor <excors@gmail.com> Philip Taylor <philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk>
  379. # [22:55] <Hixie> that seems... unnecessarily buraucratic
  380. # [22:55] <Hixie> but ok
  381. # [22:55] <matt> (plus a Patrick Taylor :) )
  382. # [22:55] <Hixie> anyway
  383. # [22:55] <Hixie> moving on
  384. # [22:55] <gavin_> so excors and zaynar are the same?
  385. # [22:56] <Philip`> Yes
  386. # [22:56] <Philip`> "not well-formed (invalid token) at line 9, column 7, byte 258 at /usr/lib/perl5/vendor_perl/5.8.8/i686-linux/XML/Parser.pm line 187"
  387. # [22:57] <Philip`> Hmm
  388. # [22:57] <Hixie> am i returning non-xml?
  389. # [22:57] <Philip`> Is something funny with op.thp1lhbnxl3at9@dragast ?
  390. # [22:57] <Philip`> It's possible that I'm doing something wrong
  391. # [22:57] <Hixie> which folder?
  392. # [22:57] <Philip`> Uh
  393. # [22:57] <Philip`> WF2, I think
  394. # [22:57] <Hixie> i can find out
  395. # [22:59] <Hixie> looks normal to me...
  396. # [22:59] <Hixie> ("Re: [whatwg] Constrains of the value propety of Controls")
  397. # [22:59] <Hixie> wfm
  398. # [22:59] <Philip`> Looks like a character encoding issue
  399. # [23:00] <Hixie> oh could be
  400. # [23:00] <Philip`> Master Br &lt;master@sitesbr.net&gt; escreveu:
  401. # [23:00] <Philip`> &gt; Jo?o:
  402. # [23:00] <Philip`> &gt; I think that the correct approach is to define the SELECTED INDEX of the
  403. # [23:00] * DanC sent http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/0032.html , sees a nearby msg from Hixie
  404. # [23:00] <Philip`> I've no idea whose character encoding issue it is, though :-)
  405. # [23:00] <Hixie> yeah i've been posting to www-archive a lot
  406. # [23:00] <Hixie> Philip`: mine
  407. # [23:00] <Hixie> Philip`: let me escape everything
  408. # [23:01] <Philip`> Hmm, I'll have to work out how to delete my cache now :'-(
  409. # [23:01] <Philip`> Oh, actually, no I won't since I don't cache stuff that didn't parse
  410. # [23:02] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@85.227.145.211) (Ping timeout)
  411. # [23:02] <DanC> unnecessarily buraucratic... perhaps... but does it seem like worth a try?
  412. # [23:03] <DanC> if you're pretty sure the extra round-trip thru me is a waste, I'll understand if you skip it now and then.
  413. # [23:03] <DanC> you won't be the only one ;-)
  414. # [23:04] <Hixie> :-)
  415. # [23:04] <Hixie> i'll ask here if i remember
  416. # [23:04] <DanC> cool
  417. # [23:04] <Hixie> but i don't guarentee i'll remember :-)
  418. # [23:04] <DanC> fair enough
  419. # [23:04] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@85.227.145.211)
  420. # [23:06] <Hixie> oops, i broke getdata email
  421. # [23:06] <DanC> so about http://www.whatwg.org/issues/top ... where do issues go when you're done with them? I'm interested in parts of the spec that are done, i.e. that I can make into formal proposals to the WG. I'd like 1 or 2 that are no brainers, e.g. "p is one of the element names"... though that's a bad example because it's not clearly testable... then I want to get into non-trivial decisions, e.g. where one of the browsers fails the relevant test.
  422. # [23:07] <Hixie> DanC: they disappear once i delete the e-mails from my inbox
  423. # [23:08] <DanC> any suggestions on where to find stuff you're done noodling on?
  424. # [23:08] <DanC> maybe what I really want is parts of the spec that have corresponding test cases.
  425. # [23:08] <Hixie> i was hoping we'd get some traction on the stuff at status.whatwg.org
  426. # [23:08] <Hixie> but i've failed to get volunteers for it (see the e-mail i sent you about it)
  427. # [23:09] <Hixie> if we had that, we could have inline commentary in the spec linking to test cases
  428. # [23:09] <Hixie> and saying what parts are stable
  429. # [23:09] <DanC> I don't recall that email; reminder clue, please? subject?
  430. # [23:09] <Hixie> hm hold on
  431. # [23:10] <Hixie> Philip`: should work now
  432. # [23:10] <Hixie> Philip`: but check what you're getting, i'm not sure it's high quality data
  433. # [23:11] <Philip`> Hixie: Thanks - it seems to parse alright and says "João" now
  434. # [23:11] <Hixie> DanC: it was in the thread "edits to the draft should reflect the consensus of the WG", in the off-list portion
  435. # [23:11] <Hixie> DanC: also cc'ed to Eric Daspet
  436. # [23:11] <DanC> ah... yes, now I remember.
  437. # [23:12] * DanC hopes his offer to help doesn't turn out to be hollow...
  438. # [23:12] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: polin8)
  439. # [23:13] <Hixie> (btw my mail was down for about 24h recently and if you ever replied to the last mail in the thread "unconference agenda for HTML WG meeting 8-9 Nov" which was going on about that time then i missed it)
  440. # [23:14] <DanC> no, the ball is still in my court
  441. # [23:15] <Hixie> k
  442. # [23:16] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  443. # [23:17] <DanC> and I'm keeping the 4 Sep timeline in mind
  444. # [23:19] <Philip`> gsnedders: Are you sure you want every single email expanded? It's kind of taking a while to download them all :-p
  445. # [23:20] <Hixie> hah
  446. # [23:20] <Hixie> there are over 3000
  447. # [23:20] <gsnedders> Philip`: makes it easier to search for some obscure part of a specific post :P
  448. # [23:20] <Hixie> i could just give you a dump, Philip`
  449. # [23:20] <Hixie> to seed you
  450. # [23:21] <Hixie> then you can just get the new ones each time
  451. # [23:21] <Philip`> I've got about 500 so far
  452. # [23:21] <Hixie> (assuming getting the list is not a problem)
  453. # [23:21] <DanC> w3c offers mailbox format (password protected to mitigate spamming); are we talking about public-html mail?
  454. # [23:21] <Philip`> Hixie: That could be useful
  455. # [23:21] <Hixie> this is a mixture of e-mails to many places
  456. # [23:21] <Hixie> Philip`: k, let me get you that, one sec
  457. # [23:21] <Hixie> Philip`: e-mail address?
  458. # [23:21] <Philip`> Try philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk
  459. # [23:22] <Hixie> and what format do you prefer, CSV, ODS, ODT, or SQL?
  460. # [23:22] <Philip`> Anything that's trivial to parse into message-id / message-body pairs :-)
  461. # [23:23] <Hixie> csv then
  462. # [23:24] <Hixie> do you want the votes table too?
  463. # [23:25] <Hixie> do you prefer zip, gzip, or bzip2
  464. # [23:25] <Philip`> No need for votes
  465. # [23:25] <Philip`> (since I can't think of anything I'd use it for)
  466. # [23:25] <Philip`> I love all compression formats equally
  467. # [23:26] <Hixie> bzip2 it is
  468. # [23:26] * Hixie tries to work out where on earth firefox saved the file
  469. # [23:27] <Hixie> sent (from my work address)
  470. # [23:28] <Hixie> it's in CSV format
  471. # [23:28] <Hixie> ""-delimited, ;-separated
  472. # [23:28] <Hixie> newlines between ""s separate record
  473. # [23:28] <Hixie> \s and "s in between ""s are escaped using \s.
  474. # [23:41] <Philip`> Received - thanks!
  475. # [23:41] <Philip`> Hmm, is there a Perl/etc module that can parse it without me having to do any work?
  476. # [23:43] <Hixie> it's easy to parse :-P
  477. # [23:44] <Hixie> probably a ten line parser, maybe less with \G and /g regexps :-P
  478. # [23:47] <Philip`> How come there's a line with 'doesn't contain a \"/\" or \"\\". For instance'? I thought it would be \"\\\" instead
  479. # [23:48] <Hixie> huh
  480. # [23:48] * Joins: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50)
  481. # [23:48] <Hixie> maybe \\s aren't escaped
  482. # [23:48] <Hixie> i guess they wouldn't have to be unless they were at the end of the string
  483. # [23:49] <Hixie> look for a \";
  484. # [23:49] <DanC> ugh... quoting discussions. making me ill. if you have to talk about &amp; around here, OK... but if you could save me the CSV quoting nausea, I'd appreciate it. JSON, anyone?
  485. # [23:50] <Philip`> Ooh, neat - my sort-of-CSV parser made Perl give a segmentation fault
  486. # [23:50] * DanC has to go puke...
  487. # [23:51] <Hixie> JSON has quoting issues just like CSV :-)
  488. # [23:51] <Hixie> though better defined, i'll grant you
  489. # [23:51] <Hixie> Philip`: nice
  490. # [23:53] <Philip`> Hmm, seemed to work that time
  491. # [23:53] <Philip`> though I only saw 1536 items in the list
  492. # [23:53] <Hixie> odd
  493. # [23:53] <Hixie> should be about 3kx
  494. # [23:53] <kingryan> {"DanC": "who says \"JSON doesn't have any quoting\"?"}
  495. # [23:54] <Philip`> I get the same number if I look for lines with /"\d{8}/
  496. # [23:54] <Hixie> odd
  497. # [23:54] <Philip`> (i.e. all the ones with timestamps)
  498. # [23:54] <Hixie> you should have 3,471 records
  499. # [23:54] <Hixie> uh
  500. # [23:54] <Hixie> 1,536 records even
  501. # [23:54] <Hixie> which is what you have
  502. # [23:54] <Hixie> hm
  503. # [23:54] <DanC> sure it has quoting, but completely well-defined quoting. I'm not aware of any interop issues. AND I DON'T WANT TO BE aware of any, thank you. ;-)
  504. # [23:55] <Philip`> I'm happy if I should have 1536 :-)
  505. # [23:55] <Hixie> i wonder why that's so far off what i saw with my other script
  506. # [23:55] <Hixie> odd
  507. # [23:55] <kingryan> DanC: the only interop issues I know about are when people don't follow the spec (doing things like not quoting object members)
  508. # [23:55] * Philip` 's sort-of-CSV parser is: $str = qr/"((?:[^\\"]+|\\\"|\\)*?)"/; while ($d =~ /\G$str;$str;$str;$str\n/sog)
  509. # [23:56] <DanC> frap; http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform fell over
  510. # [23:56] <Philip`> It's fun trying to spell words with regexp modifiers
  511. # [23:56] <Hixie> yeah, i had a s/.../.../gosex earlier today :-D
  512. # [23:58] <gsnedders> Hixie: hmmm… is /me facepalms a sensible response?
  513. # Session Close: Wed Aug 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)