/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Aug 22 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@17.203.15.154) (Quit: hyatt)
  4. # [00:10] <zcorpan_> http://sla.ckers.org/forum/read.php?2,14751 -- XSS reason to use the ie7 approach to <base> handling?
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  7. # [00:18] <Philip`> Hixie: Is the issues list dead now?
  8. # [00:18] <Philip`> I appear to get no response...
  9. # [00:19] * Quits: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Ping timeout)
  10. # [00:21] <Hixie> yeah
  11. # [00:21] <Hixie> i'm having issues
  12. # [00:21] <Hixie> as it were
  13. # [00:21] <Philip`> I hope I didn't break anything :-)
  14. # [00:21] <Hixie> trying to fix the server to cache stuff and the listener to time out quicket
  15. # [00:21] <Hixie> quicker
  16. # [00:21] <Hixie> no, all my fault
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  19. # [00:40] <Hixie> someone's looking at all the issues, and failing due to a bug in my code :-)
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  21. # [00:46] <Philip`> I'm just trying to work why my own code is buggy and not picking up the messages from the CSV file
  22. # [00:47] <Hixie> not picking up messages?
  23. # [00:50] <Philip`> In theory, I'm extracting them from the CSV then storing them in a cache with some ID, then retrieving them with the same ID from the cache, except actually it doesn't seem to retrieve them
  24. # [00:50] <Hixie> ah
  25. # [00:50] <Hixie> make sure your id is safe (e.g. doesn't have /s in it if you're using them as filesystem paths, etc)
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  28. # [00:52] <Philip`> Oh, whoops, I'm just being stupid
  29. # [00:52] <robburns> mjs: yt?
  30. # [00:52] <Philip`> since I'm printing the "not found in cache" warning regardless of whether it was found in the cache
  31. # [00:53] <Hixie> btw you do have a script that is hitting my site right now, in case you're not expecting that
  32. # [00:54] <Philip`> It should be just trying to download all the folder lists
  33. # [00:54] <Hixie> yeah
  34. # [00:54] <Philip`> Enough of them work with errors that I can see my thing seems to work now :-)
  35. # [00:54] <Hixie> :-)
  36. # [00:54] <Philip`> Uh
  37. # [00:54] <Philip`> *without errors
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  39. # [00:55] <Philip`> (Are you trying to do some delicate testing that I keep clobbering with my script?)
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  41. # [00:55] <mjs_> robburns: yes
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  44. # [00:56] <Hixie> Philip`: nope
  45. # [00:56] <robburns> mjs: I saw you're response. I'm trying to put together a minimal page with OBJECT elements that works with all of those browsers. Do you know what I'd need to add to get the QuickTIme plugin working?
  46. # [00:56] <Hixie> wtf did i do to the listener
  47. # [00:57] * Philip` needs to work out how to serve compressed output, since this expand-all-emails thing gets quite large
  48. # [00:58] <Hixie> serve it static and rely on a google search :-)
  49. # [00:58] <Hixie> static one e-mail per page , imean
  50. # [00:58] <robburns> mjs: for instance does it need a PARAM element? Or do I have to turn to EMBED?
  51. # [01:00] <Philip`> Woah, it actually got through the whole list, from W to w
  52. # [01:01] <Philip`> 3.2MB, or 1MB with compression
  53. # [01:01] <Hixie> sounds right
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  55. # [01:05] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/expand
  56. # [01:05] <Philip`> gsnedders: Happy? :-)
  57. # [01:05] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.224) (Ping timeout)
  58. # [01:06] <mjs_> robburns: setting the right param may work, using <embed> or <embed> nested in <object> definitely will
  59. # [01:06] <zcorpan_> robburns: btw, when you test things for the purpose of wg material, i would suggest to always use the latest builds of the browsers that you're testing (because some bugs might have been fixed already)
  60. # [01:08] <zcorpan_> safari: http://nightly.webkit.org/ , opera: http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/ , firefox: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/
  61. # [01:09] <Philip`> Hixie: The graphics-canvas -> "[whatwg] Canvas arc" message isn't especially readable
  62. # [01:09] <Philip`> (on the whatwg.org/issues version too)
  63. # [01:09] <Philip`> (It says things like "Rm9yIHRoZSAnYXJjJyBmdW5jdGlvbjoKCldoYXQgaWYgc3RhcnRBbmdsZSA9IGVuZEFuZ2xlPyBX" for a hundred lines or so)
  64. # [01:09] <Hixie> hah
  65. # [01:09] <Hixie> indeed not
  66. # [01:10] <Hixie> i wonder what's up with that
  67. # [01:11] <Philip`> A "Re: [whatwg] WF2 - <form action="">" has the same issue
  68. # [01:12] <Philip`> and the third "Re: [whatwg] Web Forms attributes: minlength / autocomplete"
  69. # [01:13] <Philip`> and quite a few others
  70. # [01:14] <Hixie> i guess i'll have to work out how to decode them
  71. # [01:14] <Hixie> is there some perl library that does it for me?
  72. # [01:14] <Philip`> I could be totally wrong but looks like most of these have Unicode characters in them
  73. # [01:14] <Philip`> MIME::Base64?
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  75. # [01:14] <Hixie> well i should solve the format-flowed issues too
  76. # [01:14] <Hixie> which presumably isn't base64
  77. # [01:14] <robburns> mjs: thanks. I'll look into param
  78. # [01:15] * Philip` doesn't know of any relevant libraries
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  80. # [01:26] <Hixie> ok, the listeners actually shut down after 2 minutes now
  81. # [01:27] <Hixie> instead of just continuing to live, zombie-like, after the user has closed the page
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  93. # [02:49] * Philip` suggests a "text/plainer" MIME type
  94. # [02:50] <Philip`> (shortly followed by "text/plainest" when people start abusing it)
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  96. # [02:57] <Hixie> then a few years after that... text/plainestest
  97. # [02:57] <Hixie> text/plainer-than-plain
  98. # [02:57] * billmason holds out for text/plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face
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  100. # [02:58] <Hixie> over the years we'd be able to use each of them i'm sure
  101. # [02:59] <karl> hmmm... tss tss.... I vote for texte/plein
  102. # [02:59] <karl> hmmm... tss tss.... I vote for texte/simple
  103. # [03:01] * Philip` is reminded of the quirks vs almost-standards vs standards vs actually-really-standards-and-that-means-IE-too issue
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  125. # [05:23] <karl> http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/08/getting_rid_of.html
  126. # [05:26] <karl> Instead, semi-professionals endanger the web standards movement. As I said above, the semi-professionals' aggressive shouting may scare away thoughtful would-be professionals, and it hampers the work of serious W3C Working Groups.
  127. # [05:26] <karl> (Incidentally, I've started to wonder if opening up the HTML WG mailing list for all comers was a good idea. It was definitely the noble thing to do, but asking prospective members for professional credentials before allowing them on the list might have increased the level of discussions a bit.)
  128. # [05:29] <hober> The thing is, though, whatwg@whatwg.org is *more* open, with *more* participants, and it's *less* aggressive.
  129. # [05:30] <MikeSmith> hober - maybe because it's a group of relatively like-minded people, in terms of their views on web technologies
  130. # [05:30] <MikeSmith> more self-selected than public-html list
  131. # [05:31] <hober> It's definitely self-selected, yes.
  132. # [05:31] <MikeSmith> and while they're may be more subsribers on this whatwg list, only a very small percentage of them have ever actively participated actively
  133. # [05:31] <hober> That doesn't sound like a bad thing. :)
  134. # [05:32] <hober> A lot of people seem to only pipe up when the issue / area they're expert in comes up
  135. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> hober - I would perhaps not disagree with you there :)
  136. # [05:32] <MikeSmith> (not disagree about the not a bad thing part, I meant)
  137. # [05:33] <MikeSmith> As far as only piping up when something they're expert in, you mean on the whatwg list?
  138. # [05:34] <karl> hober: whatwg just shows that the community is more homogeneous not more open. :)
  139. # [05:35] <karl> there is a self selection process by rudeness for example :)
  140. # [05:35] <MikeSmith> Anyway, evaluating the relative size of community based on the total number of participants on a particular mailing list doesn't seem to be like a very useful metric
  141. # [05:35] <karl> MikeSmith: yes
  142. # [05:35] <karl> agreed
  143. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> Looking at the number of people who are actually posting to the list seems like probably a better metric
  144. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> In evaluating the actual size of the group of people who care
  145. # [05:37] <MikeSmith> that is, who are actually reading the messages on the list
  146. # [05:38] <karl> "dick contest"
  147. # [05:42] <MikeSmith> I'm the list owner for a list that currently has 2409 subscribers on it
  148. # [05:46] <MikeSmith> but the active group of participants in actual discussions on that list has probably never been more than 50 people or so
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  190. # [15:54] <DanC> dbaron says "Object handling has been significantly rewritten on the trunk"; somebody help me find the relevant source code? I haven't looked at mozilla source in a long time
  191. # [15:55] <DanC> he gave http://www.mozilla.org/projects/granparadiso/ as a pointer... browsing around from there...
  192. # [15:55] <DanC> is http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/ current?
  193. # [15:56] <tH> yes, that's trunk
  194. # [15:56] <DanC> looking at changes for the last month... http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsquery.cgi?branch=HEAD&file=mozilla/&date=month
  195. # [15:56] <DanC> aha... "Make <object> do the same text/plain sniffing that <iframe> does" ...
  196. # [15:57] <Philip`> Maybe http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/content/base/src/nsObjectLoadingContent.cpp ?
  197. # [15:57] <DanC> bzbarsky%mit.edu 2007-08-20 20:26
  198. # [15:57] <DanC> I'm particularly looking for test materials that might have gotten used or developed along with these changes
  199. # [15:58] <DanC> I read about mozilla moving from cvs to hg; are they both running in parallel?
  200. # [15:58] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389677 - "Checked in. Need tests, though.... Help writing those would be great. :("
  201. # [15:58] * DanC browses http://hg.mozilla.org/ ...
  202. # [15:59] <DanC> ah... not quite test-driven. bummer.
  203. # [16:00] <DanC> looks like hg is a mirror of the cvs trunk. http://hg.mozilla.org/cvs-trunk-mirror/
  204. # [16:00] <tH> tests end up in directories like http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/content/base/test/ though i don't think there's an easy way to see what's relevant
  205. # [16:02] <DanC> hmm... how to find nsObjectLoadingContent.cpp under http://hg.mozilla.org/cvs-trunk-mirror/?file/ae82bc1302e8 ? I don't see source/ nor content/ nor base/ nor src/
  206. # [16:07] <gavin_> object handling was reworked in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1156
  207. # [16:07] <gavin_> it was more than a month ago
  208. # [16:08] <gavin_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1156#c6 has links to testcases
  209. # [16:08] <gavin_> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1156#c72 has some "reftests" as well
  210. # [16:08] <gavin_> (more about reftest at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Creating_reftest-based_unit_tests )
  211. # [16:09] <gavin_> for the moment hg.mozilla.org is primarily a place for work on the Tamarin integration, and some build system changes
  212. # [16:10] <gavin_> more work will start taking place there once 1.9 nears completion
  213. # [16:12] <gavin_> (some developers are also using it to manage their own work, but CVS is where 1.9 changes need to be made)
  214. # [16:20] <Philip`> I get the impression that Mozilla is at the "here's a patch, it'd be nice if someone could write some tests for it" stage towards test-driven development (i.e. acknowledging that tests are a good thing), whereas WebKit is at the "here's a patch and the tests to go with it" stage
  215. # [16:20] <Lachy> DanC, yt?
  216. # [16:21] <DanC> depends on what for, Lachy ;-)
  217. # [16:21] <gavin_> Philip`: there's a certain amount of that
  218. # [16:21] <gavin_> Philip`: many developers include tests with their patches
  219. # [16:21] <Lachy> DanC, regarding your email, I just wanted to subscribe to public-forms-tf to monitor the discussion, not participate directly
  220. # [16:22] <gavin_> Philip`: and we have various frameworks that now allow us to test more than we could before
  221. # [16:22] <Lachy> I suppose I can subscribe to the feed if you'd prefer, though
  222. # [16:22] <DanC> that's easier for me.
  223. # [16:22] <Lachy> ok
  224. # [16:23] <Philip`> gavin_: Okay - I've probably not looked at a sufficiently large or representative sample of patches :-)
  225. # [16:23] <DanC> perhaps if you volunteer to replace me as maintainer of the mailing list, we could change the policy and allow lurking by SMTP.
  226. # [16:23] <DanC> 1/2 ;-)
  227. # [16:23] <Philip`> (I do get the impression that Mozilla is actively working towards better testing, but that it isn't there yet)
  228. # [16:24] <DanC> gavin_, I'm interested to learn about those test frameworks.
  229. # [16:24] <Lachy> how much effort does it take to maintain the list?
  230. # [16:25] <gavin_> DanC: I think http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla_automated_testing is a fairly good overview
  231. # [16:25] <DanC> I try to keep it down around zero. So far, aside from the business of creating the mailing list, the work has been just two subscription requests, including yours.
  232. # [16:26] <DanC> there's a forms-based interface for maintaining a supplemental distribution list. I _think_ I can authorize you to use it.
  233. # [16:26] <Lachy> was the other Hixie's?
  234. # [16:26] <DanC> he didn't give me permission to say, but he seems comfortable sharing information like that, so I suppose he won't mind: yes.
  235. # [16:27] <Lachy> he mentioned in #whatwg earlier today, that's how I know
  236. # [16:29] <Lachy> I suppose if you can give me authorisation and send me some instructions on how to maintain the list, I can do it for you
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  238. # [16:32] * DanC hunts for the instructions...
  239. # [16:33] <DanC> Lachy, can you access http://www.w3.org/Guide/RemoteMaintainers ?
  240. # [16:33] <Lachy> yes
  241. # [16:33] <DanC> does it make sense?
  242. # [16:37] <Lachy> yeah, doesn't seem too hard
  243. # [16:40] <DanC> ok. when people subscribe, try to make it clear to them that participation (i.e. sending) is limited to TF members.
  244. # [16:41] <Lachy> will the system not block them automatically?
  245. # [16:41] <DanC> I don't think so.
  246. # [16:41] <Lachy> ok, so should I send them an email asking them to agree to that first before subscribing them?
  247. # [16:41] <DanC> something like that. use your judgement.
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  249. # [16:42] <Lachy> ok.
  250. # [16:42] <Lachy> The list isn't showing up on the web interface for me yet. Haven't you added it?
  251. # [16:47] <DanC> I'm sending mail asking the systems guys to authorize you
  252. # [16:47] <Lachy> ok, thanks.
  253. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> http://www.w3.org/mid/a9699fd20708220744k64c9c61egedf401ddbbe6a5b@mail.gmail.com -- in this particular case it doesn't actually matter if you do ascii case-insensitive or unicode case-insensitive comparison
  254. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> because you can only get into cdata and rcdata with a start tag that has only ascii characters
  255. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> or well. i guess uppercase turkish i could be an issue
  256. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> as in <script></scrİpt>
  257. # [16:56] <DanC> looking at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Mozilla_automated_testing ... a few hello-world examples would be nice
  258. # [16:56] <gavin_> the subpages have examples, I believe
  259. # [16:57] <gavin_> for some of the test types, at least
  260. # [16:57] <DanC> are there mozilla release procedures involving automated testing?
  261. # [16:57] <gavin_> the tests run on the tinderbox machines
  262. # [16:57] <gavin_> so, pretty much continously
  263. # [16:57] <gavin_> +u
  264. # [16:58] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  265. # [16:58] * DanC adds a link from http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials
  266. # [16:59] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  267. # [16:59] * DanC heads to a telcon...
  268. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> "Big Issue: This says to trust the type. Should we instead use the same mechanism as for browsing contexts?" -- it appears from the mozilla bug DanC cited that some sniffing needs to occur
  269. # [17:01] * Quits: Sander (svl@158.37.80.242) (Ping timeout)
  270. # [17:10] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81)
  271. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/test/html/semantics/object/ -- not much yet but a start anyway...
  272. # [17:31] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
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  274. # [17:38] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I see two passes (008, 009) in IE7 on Win2K3 with approximately no plugins
  275. # [17:39] <Philip`> Most of the others show the not-yet-loaded square thingy and then disappear (because they have zero size?)
  276. # [17:39] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.120.52) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
  277. # [17:40] <zcorpan_> (perhaps)
  278. # [17:42] * Joins: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.120.52)
  279. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Philip`: well, at the time, trying to sleep :)
  280. # [17:49] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.195)
  281. # [17:53] * zcorpan_ adds nested/
  282. # [17:57] <zcorpan_> Philip`: btw, is there some way to help with http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref.html ?
  283. # [18:04] <Philip`> gsnedders: Bah, excuses :-p
  284. # [18:05] <Philip`> There's 1536 emails to read - no time for sleep!
  285. # [18:05] <Philip`> (There's probably more if some are duplicated in multiple folders...)
  286. # [18:07] <Philip`> zcorpan_: I'm not at all sure at the moment - I don't know what I want to do in terms of making it useful in the future
  287. # [18:08] * Quits: beowulf (beowulf@87.198.168.38) (Ping timeout)
  288. # [18:09] <Philip`> (and in terms of not getting stuck for ages with people arguing about what should be included in it or what syntax the examples should use or why don't the "view example" links work in IE)
  289. # [18:09] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you need an /ignore flag ;)
  290. # [18:10] <zcorpan_> Philip`: if it just fleshed out the rest of the elements in the same manner it has started, it would already be very useful
  291. # [18:10] <Philip`> but I don't think I could write the whole thing myself, and if I did then it probably wouldn't be as good as possible, so I expect it would be good to have people helping :-)
  292. # [18:10] <zcorpan_> yeah
  293. # [18:11] <zcorpan_> tutorial development, quick reference, course materials, ... 45
  294. # [18:11] <Philip`> Hopefully nobody minds that it's written in some combination of HTML, Python and YAML
  295. # [18:12] <zcorpan_> 45 have signed up to help with this sort of thing
  296. # [18:12] <Philip`> (It's kind of pseudo-HTML5 since it uses <xmp> too)
  297. # [18:12] * Philip` wonders how much the 45 have produced in the past six months
  298. # [18:13] <zcorpan_> well, i haven't done anything in that area, and i'm one of the 45
  299. # [18:13] <zcorpan_> :)
  300. # [18:13] <Philip`> (Also I'm using <section> but translating that into <div class="section"><section>... to make non-Opera parsers happy)
  301. # [18:13] <zcorpan_> perhaps <xmp> should be conforming :)
  302. # [18:14] <Philip`> <pre><code>&lt;b> &amp; &lt;i></code></pre> is far too ugly compared to <xmp><b> & <i></xmp> :-)
  303. # [18:14] <zcorpan_> yeah
  304. # [18:14] <Philip`> But if <xmp> was made conforming, I'd have to write an example of <xmp> usage
  305. # [18:15] <Philip`> which would be impossible since I can't write </xmp> inside an XMP element :-(
  306. # [18:15] <zcorpan_> sure you can
  307. # [18:15] <zcorpan_> <xmp><!--</xmp>--></xmp>
  308. # [18:15] <zcorpan_> :)
  309. # [18:15] <zcorpan_> however you could use <pre> for that example
  310. # [18:17] <gsnedders> Philip`: I've written plenty; though nothing about helping HTML5 be learnt
  311. # [18:17] <zcorpan_> anyway, i for one would be willing to help out with the reference
  312. # [18:18] <zcorpan_> this reference is way better than my style sheet approach
  313. # [18:18] <zcorpan_> that didn't scale at all
  314. # [18:19] * Philip` wonders how to cope with multiple editors of one document
  315. # [18:19] <zcorpan_> google code?
  316. # [18:21] <Philip`> (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ has the current data and code in case you want to see how it works)
  317. # [18:22] <Philip`> Hmm, I guess Subversion would work fine when people are editing separate sections
  318. # [18:24] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  319. # [18:25] <Philip`> I guess it'd also be necessary to sort out boring things like copyright before doing much work
  320. # [18:26] <Philip`> (I've copied bits from the HTML 5 spec, but from the WHATWG version ("You are granted a license to use, reproduce and create derivative works of this document.") rather than the W3C one)
  321. # [18:27] <gsnedders> Philip`: but… but… but… then it's not a W3C document :o
  322. # [18:32] <schepers> it's not totally clear to me who PPK was pointing a finger at
  323. # [18:33] * Parts: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.203)
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  325. # [18:36] <zcorpan_> Philip`: data.yaml is written by hand?
  326. # [18:38] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Yes
  327. # [18:38] <zcorpan_> ok
  328. # [18:38] <Philip`> (then the .py translates it into the final HTML document)
  329. # [18:39] <Philip`> (and brings in linktypes.html too, since independent sections like that don't need any fancy processing and it's easier for them to be plain HTML)
  330. # [18:39] * zcorpan_ wonders if it would be possible to scrape some rough data from the spec on the fly
  331. # [18:40] <Philip`> It's possible to get lists of elements and attributes that way
  332. # [18:40] <zcorpan_> yeah, that could be useful
  333. # [18:41] <zcorpan_> perhaps
  334. # [18:45] * zcorpan_ ponders
  335. # [18:46] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@71.198.189.81) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  336. # [18:47] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html
  337. # [18:47] <Philip`> All elements and almost all attributes
  338. # [18:47] <Philip`> (I think there's a couple where my HTML5-spec parser misses attributes because they have extra words after them)
  339. # [18:49] <Philip`> (Also, all the forms stuff is missing)
  340. # [18:50] <Philip`> Hmm - there's, uh, quite a lot of elements :-(
  341. # [18:51] <zcorpan_> 89?
  342. # [18:51] <zcorpan_> ignoring wf2
  343. # [18:51] <Philip`> It wants to use 44 pages for printing, and that's before even having any descriptions of the elements
  344. # [18:52] <zcorpan_> 100 including wf2
  345. # [18:52] <Philip`> I count 92
  346. # [18:52] <Philip`> plus 6 for h1-h6
  347. # [18:52] <Philip`> including the bits of WF2 that have placeholders in the HTML5 spec
  348. # [18:56] <zcorpan_> sub and sup are missing
  349. # [18:57] <zcorpan_> and that's it afaict
  350. # [18:57] <zcorpan_> haven't checked attributes
  351. # [18:58] <Philip`> Those are the only element differences I see with http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements
  352. # [18:59] <zcorpan_> yeah
  353. # [19:03] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.120.52) (Ping timeout)
  354. # [19:03] <zcorpan_> i guess one would see any missing attributes when writing descriptions for each element
  355. # [19:05] <Philip`> I was thinking similarly - it's probably not worth checking them all now, since the spec will probably change and add/remove attributes before before they've all got descriptions anyway
  356. # [19:06] <zcorpan_> yeah
  357. # [19:07] * Joins: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.120.52)
  358. # [19:08] * zcorpan_ heads home
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  367. # [19:29] <Philip`> Neither of "layout tables are bad practice" and "layout tables are bad practice because of accessibility" sounds particularly convincing to me - seems much better to say something like "layout tables are bad practice because they make sites hard to maintain and do not work well on small screens or printers" or something roughly like that (as long as it's actually true)
  368. # [19:31] <aroben> might be worth noting that using tables for layout conflicts with the semantics of <table>
  369. # [19:34] <Philip`> I wouldn't expect the people who currently use layout tables to really care about the semantics of <table> - they just want something that works for them, and layout tables do, so we just have to give them something that works better and make sure they know about it
  370. # [19:36] <schepers> it only conflicts with the semantics of <table> if <table> is dfined that way... if there were a @role value of "layout", there wouldn't be that issue
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  384. # [20:36] * Philip` thinks it would be nice if the author's-guide-to-HTML-5 thing had some brief comments about how well supported the features are in various browsers
  385. # [20:36] <Philip`> Eventually the comments should disappear because everything supports HTML 5 properly, but for now it's useful to know that e.g. <section> is useless in IE and Firefox since you can't even do CSS with it
  386. # [20:37] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  387. # [20:37] <zcorpan_> right now you can pretty much only use <canvas>... :)
  388. # [20:38] <zcorpan_> and perhaps wf2 with the js implementation
  389. # [20:38] <hober> You can use the new inline elements, usually. New block elements, not so much. <div class="new-block-element-name"> is your friend, for now.
  390. # [20:38] <Philip`> You can use most of HTML 5 now, because most of it is HTML 4 :-)
  391. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> yeah, i meant from the new features
  392. # [20:39] <Philip`> and it may not be obvious to people which features are new
  393. # [20:39] <zcorpan_> true
  394. # [20:39] <Dashiva> The older an element is, the newer it may seems, considering :)
  395. # [20:40] <zcorpan_> i guess the not-implemented parts could be empty placeholders in the reference :)
  396. # [20:40] <zcorpan_> until they get implemented somewhere
  397. # [20:41] <Philip`> But if the not-implemented parts were described properly in the reference, that may help with marketing HTML5 to authors, since they can see all the nice things it's going to make possible soon
  398. # [20:42] <zcorpan_> true
  399. # [20:42] <zcorpan_> although we don't really want authors to start using features before they are implemented... :)
  400. # [20:44] <Philip`> That's why it should say that they're not yet implemented and can't be used, but should still say how they should be used if they were implemented, so people can see that HTML5 is totally awesome and will make their life so much better, and they will ask their browser developer to please implement it soon :-)
  401. # [20:45] <zcorpan_> sounds like a strategy :)
  402. # [20:45] * zcorpan_ has to go again
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  412. # [22:12] * Philip` copies some of the spec's CSS into his document, and discovers the reason for the "/* that last decl is for IE6. Try removing it, it's hilarious! */" comment
  413. # [22:13] <Philip`> (All the text starts drifting leftwards as you go down the page, until it's completely fallen off the left edge)
  414. # [22:16] * Philip` decides not to include the fix in his document, since it's more fun this way and it won't work decently in IE anyway without much more effort
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  426. # [23:26] <jgraham> robburns: Would you be happy with Solve Real Problems if it had a different title?
  427. # [23:27] * jgraham doesn't have a suggestion
  428. # [23:29] <jgraham> To me, the point of the principle is that one should not introduce features that are touted as addressing some use case if research shows that addressing the use case does not benefit the people it was intended for
  429. # [23:30] <jgraham> c.f. the concept of features that are touted as helping search engines but do not actually help search engines
  430. # [23:36] <robburns> jgraham: It's not just the issue of the title. I'm not sure what that principle is trying to say. The examples that have been given only make me wonder more.
  431. # [23:38] <robburns> jgraham: the search engine example is a case in point. Search engines are not all that great at what they do (or at least there's an enormous amount of room for improvement). adding metadata and semantics could help the situation. Perhaps it wouldn't. However, what we're talking about here is a real problem. It's just a real problem that we have not yet figured out how to solve. So what does the principle "Solve real problems" have to do with the example?
  432. # [23:39] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@64.81.134.176) (Quit: polin8)
  433. # [23:41] <robburns> jgraham: The other two problems listed in the IRC log (Swedish hyphenation and the request for other character entity references are also good examples of this mis-use
  434. # [23:42] <robburns> jgraham: These are both real problems. From the discussion it appears one of them might not be best solved in markup. (still a real problem). The other one looks more like it's that hsivonen thinks the problem is not worth solving. But then we'd have to have a design principle: "solve problems hsivonen wants to solve"
  435. # [23:43] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@17.203.15.154) (Quit: hyatt)
  436. # [23:48] <jgraham> robburns: The point of the search engine example is that the solution doesn't really solve the problem it purports to solve either because actual search engines don't have the problem or because the solution doesn't work.
  437. # [23:48] <Philip`> "Provide Real Improvements"? where improvements that nobody will use (e.g. search-engine targetted features that search engines won't use) or that don't actually make people's lives easier (e.g. renaming a character or function because you don't particularly like its old name) are considered non-worthwhile
  438. # [23:49] <jgraham> Philip`: That might be good. I was thinking "Identify Existing Problems" and "Evaluate Proposed Solutions"
  439. # [23:50] <jgraham> "Evaluate Proposed Solutions" seems so obvious yet it isn't always practised
  440. # [23:52] <robburns> jgraham: on the search engine example, however it is a real problem. It sounds like the principle we're trying to specify is "always do the right thing". But that's beyond our control. All we can do is try to do what is in our scope to solve search engine issues. Is this principle supposed to discourage us from trying to solve issues within our scope?
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  443. # [23:55] <jgraham> How do you know it's a real issue if you don't talk to someone who actually writes a search engine? But perhaps it's a not obvious that fits the existing title Solve Real Problems. Maybe Philip`'s example is more straightforward - say I said I wanted to rename <p> to <para> because I don't like single letter element names. Is that worth solving?
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  449. # [23:59] <robburns> jgraham: see that's a different principle. That is not solve real problems. That's solve problems worth solving. But that doesn't belong in the design principles. Everyone will realize when they read our recommendation that the problems we solved were the problems we thought we could solve and that we thought were worth solving. It just doesn't belong in our design principles at all.
  450. # Session Close: Thu Aug 23 00:00:00 2007

The end :)