/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-25 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Aug 25 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> I've seen lots of image slices where each slice is just an <a href> link to a single URL, but those are handled adequately by <img usemap> since they don't care about exactly where the click was
  4. # [00:02] * Quits: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.110.16) (Ping timeout)
  5. # [00:03] <Philip`> The TerraServer site (when you choose a particular part of the little map) does a combination - it has 3x2 images, and each image has a usemap to get higher-precision selection of points
  6. # [00:04] <robburns> Philip: yeah, I think i've seen that a lot too. I really think this boils down to whether its useful to have <input image> and <img>. I guess if you can handle things on the server-side with just GET, then you don't need <input image> at all. However, if you want to be able to use another method, then you need <input image> instead.
  7. # [00:04] <Philip`> How would you make <img> submit a form?
  8. # [00:05] <robburns> you can't. which is why I think <input image> is useful to have too.
  9. # [00:05] <Philip`> (even a GET one)
  10. # [00:05] <robburns> does a GET form submit do something a simple href GET can't do?
  11. # [00:06] <Philip`> http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx uses <input type=image> for the "GO" buttons
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  13. # [00:06] <Philip`> A GET form submit can submit e.g. the contents of text input fields
  14. # [00:06] <robburns> I thought that had to happen as part of a POST or PUT
  15. # [00:06] <Philip`> like <form action=search.cgi method=get><input name=querystring><input type=image src=Go.gif></form>
  16. # [00:07] <robburns> hmm. OK
  17. # [00:07] <Philip`> That would go to search.cgi?querystring=whatever&x=12&y=34
  18. # [00:08] <robburns> I see. And a straight image would have to trigger a javascript to do that GET.
  19. # [00:08] <Philip`> (That seems to be the most significant use of <input type=image> now)
  20. # [00:08] <robburns> yeah, that makes sense. I don't know what I was thinking.
  21. # [00:08] <Philip`> Yes - it'd have to do <a href="javascript:document.getElementById('someform').submit()"><img src=Go.gif></a> or similar
  22. # [00:09] <Philip`> (which is somewhat unpleasant)
  23. # [00:10] <Philip`> (particularly since its behaviour is non-scripted UAs is completely broken)
  24. # [00:10] <robburns> I think the terra server look (on the surface), like a reasonable use case example for <input usemap> but I expect that's not what its doing since it doesn't work well enough in browsers
  25. # [00:10] <robburns> is it using <img usemap>
  26. # [00:10] <robburns> ?
  27. # [00:11] <Philip`> It is
  28. # [00:11] <Philip`> (on six <img>s)
  29. # [00:11] <robburns> I see. just looking at the source. But it's giving me a headache to look at it
  30. # [00:12] <robburns> So I think being able to associate the image map with an <input> would simplify this site (at first glance anyway).
  31. # [00:12] <Philip`> Why <input type=image usemap>, and not just a plain <input type=image>?
  32. # [00:13] <robburns> though it has to use heavy scripting anyway I suppose
  33. # [00:16] <robburns> PHilip: just to get the client-side usemap features (speaking hypothetically)
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  36. # [00:18] <Philip`> Which client-side usemap features would it benefit from? It's already totally inaccessible beyond hope of being saved, and it doesn't want tooltips on different areas of the image - there are no suitable words to display on the Aerial Photo view, and the Topo Map already shows the words in the image so there's no need for a tooltip
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  38. # [00:21] <robburns> well, I'm not so sure its beyond hope of being saved :-)
  39. # [00:22] <Hixie> are we talking about an application for viewing satellite photos?
  40. # [00:22] <Hixie> and maps?
  41. # [00:22] <Philip`> Yes (like http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=16&X=363&Y=5610&W=1 )
  42. # [00:23] <robburns> Hixie: yes. But I was more talking about its interface.
  43. # [00:23] <Hixie> i'd love so hear how one would make that application appropriate for image-less users
  44. # [00:23] <Hixie> since it might be something google maps could do
  45. # [00:24] <robburns> The interface could instead lead someone to a live web microphone for that area. :-)
  46. # [00:24] <Hixie> wouldn't that be a very different app?
  47. # [00:24] <robburns> Hixie: yes
  48. # [00:24] <robburns> that's why I said I was talking about its interface and not what the app did per se
  49. # [00:25] <Hixie> not much point making an app usable to image-less users if the whole point of the app is showing images :-)
  50. # [00:26] <Philip`> The only thing I can think of is to have a map converted into a list of significant place names, and if you select one then it zooms in and shows you the list of less significant place names near the first place
  51. # [00:26] <robburns> Hixie: I thought Google maps could provide text directions between locations too. Though maybe it can't. Must be why I use Yahoo maps instead :-)
  52. # [00:26] <Philip`> (which won't work at all for satellite photographs that have no place names)
  53. # [00:27] <Hixie> robburns: google maps has other features, but Philip` was talking abouth terraserver
  54. # [00:28] <robburns> Philip: that's where I was going to go with this. But necessarily for satellite photos
  55. # [00:28] <Philip`> Google Maps can give directions but you'd want to totally ignore the map for that - you just enter two place names and get a set of directions - so it doesn't seem related to the issue of maps
  56. # [00:28] <Hixie> yeah
  57. # [00:33] <robburns> PhiliP: OK. Like I said I was just speaking about its UI.
  58. # [00:35] <Philip`> (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/cssmaps talks about accessible maps)
  59. # [00:36] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  60. # [00:39] <robburns> Philip: Yeah that might be a solution too. I'd have to look at it closer. I think even a <select> instead of a <dl> might do what that article proposes. As you've said before, an image map is really much like a menu. It's just the image maps to that menu. I don't know if we would get the same rich UI effects I've talked about before leaving it up to CSS. But I'll take a closer look at the article.
  61. # [00:41] <Philip`> The desire to provide textual alternatives for zoomable maps (of the type that is displaying place names, street names, etc, and could be converted to text) sounds to me like a valid use-case
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  63. # [00:43] <Philip`> Since it's a fairly specialised case, and it would require significant extra work from the server developers, I don't see that the textual alternative ought to be tied to the graphical version in the markup - a link to an independent text-only geographical-navigation system would work just as well, I think
  64. # [00:44] <robburns> Philip: Yeah. I don't think it has to be a geographic map either. This could be used for selecting an item to buy from a photograph of items. Or it could be to select a person from a class photo to hear more about that person. as long as the units are not too fine-grained (like continuous units in the case of a geographic map), then I think it is easy to imagine the use cases
  65. # [00:44] <Philip`> (unless I'm missing some disadvantages of that approach)
  66. # [00:45] <robburns> Philip: I think that, done right, <input usemap> would eliminate the need for extra server-side work. Authors could even create image map forms for different sites where they didn't control the server
  67. # [00:46] <robburns> Since the areas of the map combined with the map can be thought of as name/value pairs
  68. # [00:47] <Philip`> The server would still have to do all the work to generate <area> elements for significant places on the map, ordered so that they're useful to non-graphical users, as opposed to simply sending a zoomed bitmap with the place names baked in
  69. # [00:47] <robburns> Any server looking for some name/value pairs that made sense mapped to an image, could then be used by <input usemap>, even if the server side developers never even thought about image maps
  70. # [00:48] <Philip`> If you want name/value pairs and aren't putting code on the server, what's the problem with <img usemap>?
  71. # [00:49] <robburns> perhaps there's other data (<input text>) that needs to be submitted too
  72. # [00:50] <robburns> Philip: think of a server that's looking to receive the name/value pair: offset/offset(int). daylight-savings-time/dst(boolean). And the server-side developers never even thought about image maps
  73. # [00:52] <Philip`> That sounds reasonable as a problem
  74. # [00:53] <Philip`> If there are multiple values being chosen and then submitted, I think it'd be a better solution if the user could set those values in any order (e.g. choose their timezone and then toggle the DST flag and then submit the form)
  75. # [00:53] <robburns> Philip: A straight HTML coder could produce the same example I've been talking about and create an <input usemap> submit that sent exactly what the server was looking for. No need to handle coordinates server-side (or client side). The user gets a rich UI where mousing over the World map highlights each time-zone. This gives valuable feedback to the user that they're hovering over the correct time-zone before clicking. Plus the forms totally accessible
  76. # [00:53] <Hixie> btw, irc truncates anything you say past 255 characters
  77. # [00:53] <Hixie> just so you know
  78. # [00:53] <robburns> Hixie: OK sorry.
  79. # [00:54] <Hixie> no worries, just letting you know :-)
  80. # [00:54] <robburns> Hixie: that was the whole message
  81. # [00:54] <Philip`> in which case it'd be <select name=timezone><option value=-1>Greenland or something <option value=0>GMT <option value=1>CET ...</select> <input type=checkbox name=dst> <input type=submit>
  82. # [00:55] <Philip`> and then the problem is styling the <select> to look like an image of the world
  83. # [00:55] <robburns> Philip: right. Which is an interesting solution I hadn't thought of (the CSS one)
  84. # [00:58] <Philip`> The styling seems easy if you've got script - just use a client-side image map with <map id="m"><area href="javascript:timezone.selectedIndex=0" title="Greenland or something">...</map> <img class="display_if_script_enabled" src="world.png" usemap="#m">
  85. # [00:59] <Philip`> and then it falls back to the <select> element for non-scripted or non-visual UAs
  86. # [01:00] <Philip`> (and all users get the benefit of setting all their inputs in any order, before submitting the form)
  87. # [01:01] <robburns> Philip: that's true
  88. # [01:01] * Philip` apologises for his ignorance of who lives at GMT-0100
  89. # [01:02] <robburns> Phlip: I don't know. that's probably right (Greenland). Though i don't know either.
  90. # [01:03] <robburns> Philip: I think that same CSS technique might also handle any usemap case. No?
  91. # [01:05] <robburns> Philip: I meant the CSs/jJS technique. Just use a list of <a href> elements. Replace those with an image too with CSs. Then use javascript to map the map to the <a href>s.
  92. # [01:05] <robburns> s/CSS/CSs twice
  93. # [01:08] <Philip`> That would require a separate image file for each area, and it wouldn't handle non-rectangular areas
  94. # [01:10] <robburns> Philip: yeah, you're right. I thought you were doing something else in that example
  95. # [01:13] <Philip`> Ah - I was trying to just use HTML to create an image map representing the <select>, and JS to make it react by modifying the <select>'s value
  96. # [01:13] <Philip`> (The HTML image map could be generated by script from the contents of the <select>, I suppose)
  97. # [01:14] <robburns> Philip: I'm not sure how that generation would work
  98. # [01:14] <Philip`> Hmm, neither am I
  99. # [01:15] <Philip`> I think it'd only work in trivial cases - you could loop through all the <option>s, and construct (in script) a rectangular <area> with a fixed size for each one, and then attach all those areas to the image
  100. # [01:15] <Philip`> which is probably more of a pain and much less flexible than simply writing all the <area>s out by hand
  101. # [01:18] <robburns> Philip: yeah. I think there is a UI issue whether input and submit should happen with the same click (or otherwise activation). That to me could be a reason to drop <input usemap>. But I think it needs more careful consideration.
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  103. # [01:20] <robburns> it partly depends how tightly linked the author wants the user's interaction with what's happening on the server. Maybe games would be the more appropriate use case too consider. Just thinking out loud.
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The end :)