/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-08-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 31 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.235)
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  5. # [00:01] <jgraham> DanC: I'll quote you on that in 2017 :)
  6. # [00:02] <DanC> we'll see
  7. # [00:02] <Dashiva> "3 years should be enough for any spec"
  8. # [00:04] * Quits: robburns_ (robburns@208.54.7.185) (Quit: robburns_)
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  12. # [00:19] * DanC wonders who Dashiva is quoting
  13. # [00:20] <jgraham> It sounds like a "adaptation" of "640K should be enough for anyone"
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  18. # [00:28] <jgraham> DanC: I think I disagree that all conformance properties should be machine checkable. I don't see the problem with requiring conformant documents to use the alt attribute to provide alternate text for an image (rather than e.g. SEO keywords)
  19. # [00:28] <jgraham> but that's not a machine checkable requirement
  20. # [00:29] <jgraham> Indeed, I'm not sure how one would phrase the spec to avoid non-machine checkable requirements
  21. # [00:31] <DanC> I didn't say machine-checkable, though I do preper that. I said objective. i.e. any two independent observers should agree on whether a document conforms or not
  22. # [00:31] <DanC> and the spec should provide a clear, objective judgement.
  23. # [00:31] <jgraham> DanC: Given my experience of humans, machine checkable and objective are the same thing :)
  24. # [00:32] <DanC> there are fairly obvious exceptions; e.g. that a program terminates.
  25. # [00:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  26. # [00:34] <jgraham> OK. I was thinking more of things requiring judgement like the alt attribute. It's pretty clear that there are a variety of opinions on what represents equivalent content for an image, but I do not think that we should have weaker text describing how alt is to be used just because of that
  27. # [00:35] <DanC> well, we disagree
  28. # [00:35] <DanC> I'm not sure it's "weaker" to give a different name for judgements like that.
  29. # [00:36] <jgraham> What's the advantage of giving it a different name?
  30. # [00:42] <DanC> it makes conformance objective
  31. # [00:42] <DanC> which is what the market expects, I'm pretty sure
  32. # [00:46] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  33. # [00:49] <jgraham> It's not the common use of the word conformant; in general use it just means adhering to the rules. Presumably the rules in the HTML 5 spec should include things like "use the elements correctly" so it's nice to have a word to describe this. Note that the draft comes close to defining a "valid" document as one that passes machine checkable conformance criteria in the sense that a "validator" is a mechanical conformance checker.
  34. # [00:49] <jgraham> I think the market generally uses the word "valid" at present so maybe having two terms is OK
  35. # [00:50] <DanC> a name for the class of documents that conformance checkers are expected to say OK to seems critical. And ... gee... "conforming" seems pretty good.
  36. # [00:50] <Philip`> How would you explain to authors the difference between "img elements MUST have a src attribute containing a URI" (objective, machine-checkable) and "img elements MUST have an alt attribute containing a textual equivalent of the image" (subjective)?
  37. # [00:50] <jgraham> Even though they probably don't conform to all the rules set out in the spec?
  38. # [00:51] <DanC> I'd change the subjective one to SHOULD, since it doesn't actually affect interoperability.
  39. # [00:52] <jgraham> DanC: That's the kind of weaker text I mentioned above
  40. # [00:53] <DanC> if the alt attribute is some random bit of text, none of the software is going to notice or care, so rfc2119:must doesn't apply there.
  41. # [00:53] <DanC> it's probably worth cross-referencing WCAG
  42. # [00:56] <jgraham> DanC: I don't see where rfc2199 says MUST should only be used for conditions that affect software.
  43. # [00:56] * Joins: chaals (chaals@213.236.208.22)
  44. # [00:56] <chaals> Morning all
  45. # [00:58] <jgraham> e.g. abuse of alt seems to fit "In particular, they MUST only be used [...] to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm"
  46. # [00:58] * Joins: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.73)
  47. # [00:58] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.195)
  48. # [00:59] <MikeSmith> chaals - hei
  49. # [00:59] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  50. # [00:59] <DanC> Zakim, this will be HTML
  51. # [00:59] <Zakim> ok, DanC, I see HTML_WG()7:00PM already started
  52. # [00:59] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  53. # [00:59] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  54. # [00:59] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T22-59-03
  55. # [01:00] * Quits: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.111.185) (Ping timeout)
  56. # [01:00] <DanC> Chris, I'm not sure how much of the telcon I can stay for. it's back-to-school night and I have music practice in an hour. I think I'm 4ple-booked (if you count eating dinner)
  57. # [01:00] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  58. # [01:00] <Chris> ok.
  59. # [01:00] <Zakim> +Sam
  60. # [01:00] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  61. # [01:00] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  62. # [01:00] <Zakim> +DanC
  63. # [01:01] <Zakim> +??P3
  64. # [01:01] <Zakim> -??P3
  65. # [01:01] <chaals> zakim, code?
  66. # [01:01] <Zakim> the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals
  67. # [01:01] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  68. # [01:02] <chaals> zakim, ipcaller is me
  69. # [01:02] <Zakim> +chaals; got it
  70. # [01:02] * oedipus waves at chaals
  71. # [01:02] * chaals waves back :)
  72. # [01:02] <DanC> agenda + Convene, review agenda, actions
  73. # [01:02] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  74. # [01:03] <DanC> agenda + Design Principles
  75. # [01:03] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  76. # [01:03] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  77. # [01:03] * Joins: rubys (rubys@75.182.64.252)
  78. # [01:03] <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
  79. # [01:03] <chaals> zakim, mute me please
  80. # [01:03] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  81. # [01:03] <billyjack> Zakim, IPcaller is me
  82. # [01:03] <Zakim> +billyjack; got it
  83. # [01:04] * chaals waves to jillyback
  84. # [01:04] <DanC> (billyjack is Mike Smith, W3C)
  85. # [01:04] * Joins: robburns (robburns@208.54.7.190)
  86. # [01:05] * matt doesn't want to accidentally be counted as present, I'm just lurking, fyi... (and /me waves to chaals)
  87. # [01:05] * DanC can take notes in IRC some at the beginning, but expects to drop off soonish and doesn't really want to do the clean-it-up-and-send-it-out bit
  88. # [01:05] * chaals can do that I guess (but not check it in)
  89. # [01:06] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.235) (Connection reset by peer)
  90. # [01:06] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  91. # [01:06] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, review agenda, actions" taken up [from DanC]
  92. # [01:06] * billyjack or I can also handle clean-up and check-in
  93. # [01:06] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.235)
  94. # [01:06] <DanC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1128.html
  95. # [01:07] <DanC> CW reviews agenda...
  96. # [01:07] * chaals leaves Mike to do cleanup then.
  97. # [01:07] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
  98. # [01:07] * RRSAgent records action 4
  99. # [01:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  100. # [01:07] <DanC> CW: CG meets tomorrow; I saw recent mail from Dean [?] that looks like most of what I'll take there.
  101. # [01:08] <DanC> ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [DONE]
  102. # [01:08] * RRSAgent records action 5
  103. # [01:08] <rubys> Dean Edridge
  104. # [01:08] <DanC> ACTION: DanC to reserve a bridge for this alternating schedule [DONE]
  105. # [01:08] * RRSAgent records action 6
  106. # [01:08] <oedipus> done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0789.html
  107. # [01:08] <DanC> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [DONE]
  108. # [01:08] * RRSAgent records action 7
  109. # [01:08] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.255.104.196)
  110. # [01:08] <DanC> ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [DONE]
  111. # [01:08] * RRSAgent records action 8
  112. # [01:09] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  113. # [01:09] * chaals will chat after the call if you like...
  114. # [01:09] <DanC> . ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go
  115. # [01:09] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.235) (Ping timeout)
  116. # [01:09] <chaals> (bars are already going to be closed in Oslo anyway :)
  117. # [01:09] <DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [CONTINUES]
  118. # [01:09] * RRSAgent records action 9
  119. # [01:10] * chaals believes that the technical term for these action items is "Outstanding!" ;)
  120. # [01:10] <DanC> agenda + issue tracking
  121. # [01:10] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  122. # [01:10] <DanC> zakim, take up item issue
  123. # [01:10] <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue tracking" taken up [from DanC]
  124. # [01:10] * oedipus it's a wonder you're not called chuckles, chaals
  125. # [01:11] * Joins: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198)
  126. # [01:11] * Joins: hober (ted@69.45.6.105)
  127. # [01:11] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest we use an actual online bug-tracking system (e.g. bugzilla)
  128. # [01:11] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  129. # [01:11] <DanC> DanC: @@
  130. # [01:12] * Joins: sbuluf (evightx@200.49.140.250)
  131. # [01:12] <Chris> survey results - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
  132. # [01:12] <DanC> DanC: not sure the wiki issues list nor the list I'm maintaining is keeping up with demand... thinking about Sam's suggestion for a secretary
  133. # [01:12] <MikeSmith> ack MikeSmith
  134. # [01:12] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest we use an actual online bug-tracking system (e.g. bugzilla)
  135. # [01:12] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  136. # [01:12] * chaals q+ to suggest trackbot cause it fits nicely with W3C tools and is simple
  137. # [01:12] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  138. # [01:13] <Chris> is a bugtracker a good way to track issues?
  139. # [01:14] <rubys> +1 on triage team concept
  140. # [01:14] * matt wonders if trackbot has ever been used to track a group with 400+ participants...
  141. # [01:14] <DanC> (note that a bugzilla instance was set up ; it didn't get much traction. see http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTrackerRequirements for details.)
  142. # [01:15] * chaals doubts it matt. I like the idea that it be limited write access
  143. # [01:15] <DanC> ChrisW: I don't mind using a bug system, though a triage team is important in any case...
  144. # [01:15] <DanC> ... and a list of one-line descriptions of bugs is important.
  145. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: we don't have to make it completely open for anybody to be able to raise a new issue in the tracker; a group of designated WG members could be given perms to raise new issues
  146. # [01:16] <chaals> q+
  147. # [01:16] * Zakim sees chaals on the speaker queue
  148. # [01:16] <chaals> ack me
  149. # [01:16] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  150. # [01:16] <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest trackbot cause it fits nicely with W3C tools and is simple and to
  151. # [01:16] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  152. # [01:16] <DanC> (the TAG is starting to use trackbot/tracker; I don't love it, but Dom is handling RFEs at a satisfying rate.)
  153. # [01:16] <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: using trackbot might be good ... definitely good dogfood case
  154. # [01:17] <DanC> (that's chaals talking)
  155. # [01:18] <DanC> (for reference: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/ )
  156. # [01:18] <Chris> who should be the triage team?
  157. # [01:18] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99) (Ping timeout)
  158. # [01:19] * rubys may be willing to volunteer, but wants to talk to Chis first.
  159. # [01:20] <DanC> ACTION ChrisW: start setting up a team to triage issues
  160. # [01:20] * RRSAgent records action 10
  161. # [01:21] <DanC> Zakim, is mjs here?
  162. # [01:21] <Zakim> DanC, I do not see Mjs anywhere
  163. # [01:21] <chaals> [chaals volunteers]
  164. # [01:21] <DanC> Zakim, take up design
  165. # [01:21] <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up design', DanC
  166. # [01:21] <DanC> Zakim, take up item design
  167. # [01:21] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  168. # [01:21] <mjs_> DanC: I am here but not on the phone
  169. # [01:21] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  170. # [01:21] <DanC> ah. ok, mjs
  171. # [01:21] <mjs> (and can't call cause I am in another meeting)
  172. # [01:21] <DanC> whee!
  173. # [01:21] <mjs> but if you have questions I can answer here
  174. # [01:22] <Chris> Ah, the stealth meeting multi-task. I salute you.
  175. # [01:22] <Chris> survey results: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
  176. # [01:22] * DanC would like chaals to take over note-taking; will that work?
  177. # [01:23] <chaals> scribeNick: chaals
  178. # [01:23] * DanC Zakim, mute me
  179. # [01:23] * Zakim DanC should now be muted
  180. # [01:23] <chaals> scribe: chaals
  181. # [01:23] * Quits: hober (ted@69.45.6.105) (Ping timeout)
  182. # [01:23] <chaals> Chris: let's go through looking at what the disagreements are
  183. # [01:23] <chaals> zakim, please mute me
  184. # [01:23] <Zakim> chaals should now be muted
  185. # [01:23] * Joins: hober (ted@69.45.6.105)
  186. # [01:24] <DanC> (Chris, I think I gotta go now. Anything you can do in the direction of getting a WD out, I support.)
  187. # [01:24] <Chris> OK. thanks Dan.
  188. # [01:24] * chaals not sure he understood what chris said
  189. # [01:24] * DanC Zakim, drop danc
  190. # [01:24] * Zakim DanC is being disconnected
  191. # [01:24] <Zakim> -DanC
  192. # [01:24] <chaals> ack me
  193. # [01:24] * Zakim unmutes chaals
  194. # [01:24] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  195. # [01:25] * chaals not sure he understood what chris said
  196. # [01:25] <chaals> topic: degrade gracefully.
  197. # [01:25] <chaals> Chris: Laura said "use the term 'user agent'" not browser.
  198. # [01:25] <chaals> ... I think we can accept that.
  199. # [01:25] <Chris> Feedback 1: Laura Carlson, "don't use browser, use user agent". I think we can accept that.
  200. # [01:25] <chaals> ack me
  201. # [01:25] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  202. # [01:26] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  203. # [01:27] <chaals> CMN: can accept that - let's move on
  204. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> q+ to ask about browsers question
  205. # [01:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  206. # [01:27] <chaals> Chris: Changing canvas example to a generic new element - think we should use something imaginary that will not be in the spec.
  207. # [01:27] <Chris> Feedback 2: Laura Carlson, "change <canvas> to <newelement>". I'm inclined to do this.
  208. # [01:27] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest we need to record any resolutions we make
  209. # [01:27] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  210. # [01:27] <oedipus> +1 to generic "newelement"
  211. # [01:28] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We change 'browser' to user agent
  212. # [01:28] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Ping timeout)
  213. # [01:28] <MikeSmith> q+ to suggest that we put/stick with "browsers and other UAs"
  214. # [01:28] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  215. # [01:29] <chaals> Chris: Not sure it is a good idea that sites should require a specific user agent
  216. # [01:29] <chaals> CMN: Should be clear that you need some kind of fallback content that does the same job, not just says "you need a particular user agent"
  217. # [01:30] <chaals> Chris: Can you degrade gracefully enough that something will work on an older user agent?
  218. # [01:30] <chaals> CMN: These are principles, and the principle is pretty straightforward - it should work
  219. # [01:30] <chaals> Chris: for some reasonable value of "work"
  220. # [01:30] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We change 'canvas' to 'newelement'
  221. # [01:31] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We overrule Scott Turner and accept the basic principle
  222. # [01:32] * chaals notes that we left out the principle "support existing content"
  223. # [01:32] <chaals> Mike: The main problem we are trying to solve is interoperability of browsers. Other user agents are important so we should leave in at least the mention of the word browsers.
  224. # [01:33] <chaals> ack mik
  225. # [01:33] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about browsers question and to suggest we need to record any resolutions we make and to suggest that we put/stick with "browsers and other UAs"
  226. # [01:33] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  227. # [01:33] <chaals> Mike: We should not be mandating to the editor that they don't say "browser" anywhere, although "user agent" should be mentioned too.
  228. # [01:35] <chaals> s/RESOLUTION: We change 'browser' to user agent/RESOLUTION: We do not change 'browser' to user agent everywhere, the text is OK/
  229. # [01:35] <Chris> Richard Ishida had comments on the list: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0958.html
  230. # [01:37] <oedipus> deserves an explicit mention -- blockquote deprecated for presentational purpose in HTML 4.01 to little effect
  231. # [01:37] <chaals> RichardIshida suggests that the principle should be "degrade gracefully where possible - i.e. don't be beholden to every browser ever shipped"
  232. # [01:38] <chaals> Chris: Think that the fact this is a principle not a law covers this. Deprecating support is IMHO a bad idea, but deprecating practices is a good idea.
  233. # [01:39] <chaals> ... I think the degrade gracefully section already says that effectively
  234. # [01:39] * chaals wonders if someone can put a pointer to the draft into the channel
  235. # [01:39] <Chris> Design principles: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html?rev=HEAD
  236. # [01:41] <chaals> CMN: Think that Richard's comment is covered by the text. "Should work reasonably well" is sufficiently flexible (and can be understood by the man on the Clapham Omnibus)
  237. # [01:41] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We think the principle meets Richard's request as written
  238. # [01:41] <Chris> back to "supports existing content"...
  239. # [01:42] <chaals> s/^topic:/Topic:/
  240. # [01:42] <chaals> Topic: Support existing content
  241. # [01:42] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99) (Ping timeout)
  242. # [01:42] <Chris> Laura Carlson: stipulate that current web sites shouldn't stop work in HTML5 UAs.
  243. # [01:43] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.235)
  244. # [01:43] <Chris> *is not convinced this is necessarily possible.
  245. # [01:43] * mjs_ hopes there's a summary of all these resolutions available later so he knows what to do
  246. # [01:43] <Chris> yes, there will be, mjs_
  247. # [01:45] <chaals> Chris: First part - current sites shouldn't stop working. If you make it stronger than it is, we have a problem with things built for IE 6 and whether that has to work for HTML 5. The question is how strongly you take this principle - existing content already does browesr switching...
  248. # [01:45] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.104.196) (Ping timeout)
  249. # [01:45] <chaals> ... if you make this too strong, then you create problems. IE has to have an HTML 5 mode and we hope not to kee doing that in the future, but current behaviour for old browsers is kind of goofy. I think this is already covered in the text.
  250. # [01:46] <chaals> ... inclined not to do anything with the first part of the feedback.
  251. # [01:46] <chaals> CMN: Yeah, I am happy with the current wording in that respect
  252. # [01:47] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We do not strengthen the statement about sites working in HTML 5
  253. # [01:47] <Zakim> -billyjack
  254. # [01:47] <chaals> Chris: agree that we should strike "We need to judge whether the value of the change is worth the cost."
  255. # [01:47] <chaals> CMN: Agree too.
  256. # [01:48] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.104.196)
  257. # [01:48] <chaals> CMN: I wil come back to the "support existing content" in the context of accessibility.
  258. # [01:49] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  259. # [01:49] <chaals> ... Accessbility is generally implemented much slower, so content that serves accessibility should be supported more strongly ...
  260. # [01:49] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  261. # [01:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Client exited)
  262. # [01:49] <oedipus> +1 to chaals' observation
  263. # [01:50] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  264. # [01:50] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.235) (Ping timeout)
  265. # [01:50] <chaals> RESOLUTION: Strike the sentence "We need to judge whether the value of the change is worth the cost."
  266. # [01:50] <chaals> RATIONALE: It's a truism.
  267. # [01:50] <Zakim> +??P4
  268. # [01:50] <chaals> Comment that Valid content, not cross browser content, should get the most weight
  269. # [01:50] <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P4 is me
  270. # [01:50] <Zakim> +MikeSmith; got it
  271. # [01:51] <mjs> incidentally, I wonder why this telecon is passing resolutions, since in theory decision process was all supposed to be via channels that allow asynchronous distributed participation like the mailing list
  272. # [01:51] <chaals> Chris: I think valid markup should be given the most weight, but saying that legacy invalid markup shouldn't stop working takes a lot of the value out of that statement.
  273. # [01:52] <mjs> I thought our charter ruled out passing resolutions by telecon
  274. # [01:52] * chaals assumes that these decisions are subject to the working group accepting them ...
  275. # [01:53] <Chris> mjs - mistake in wording. we're discussing the bits of feedback, and what appropriate action to address that feedback could be. They are all subject to approval by the WG in email.
  276. # [01:53] * oedipus right, the WG reads the minutes and says yea or nay
  277. # [01:53] <chaals> [/me wonders i he should change all "resolution" to "proposed res..." but thinks that is easier for mike to do with s///g in cleaning up (to keep the highlight style and make it easy to generate the summary]
  278. # [01:53] <Chris> Think of them as "the set of people on the call right now thinks this would be a good resolution," not "thus sayeth the WG, stop talking about it now."
  279. # [01:54] * oedipus as long as i don't have to do the cleanup
  280. # [01:54] <mjs> ok, I was just taking RESOLUTION to mean the same thing it usually does in w3c Working Group minutes
  281. # [01:54] <Chris> Perfectly understandable. Sorry about that.
  282. # [01:54] * chaals it really is a s/RESOLUTION:/PROPOSED RESOLUTION:/g in cleaning up
  283. # [01:55] <Chris> anyone else have thoughts about the valid markup comment from Laura?
  284. # [01:55] <Chris> Laura: "Cross-browser content on the public Web should be given the most weight." should be changed to "Valid markup should be given the most weight, but legacy invalid markup shouldn't stop working."
  285. # [01:55] <MikeSmith> [we could change to "proposed" during clean-up of the minutes, or we could just consider these to be resolutions that we go back to the group with these suggested changes]
  286. # [01:55] <Chris> MikeSmith - good idea.
  287. # [01:55] <mjs> I disagree that valid markup should be given more weight
  288. # [01:56] <oedipus> should support valid markup that can validate against a DTD
  289. # [01:56] * Quits: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34) (Connection reset by peer)
  290. # [01:56] <MikeSmith> q+ to say that we should give weight to valid markup, and probably not use "valid" at all (use "conformant" instead) for this case anyway
  291. # [01:56] * Zakim sees MikeSmith on the speaker queue
  292. # [01:57] <Chris> I think there's some value in encouraging well-written markup - e.g. wellformed - but I don't want to focus on ivory tower HTML4.01.
  293. # [01:57] <oedipus> yes, mikeSmith - conformant is the word
  294. # [01:57] <chaals> CMN: I think it should be "well-written markup" that gets weight - a vague term meaning validity, working on lots of browsers, working on mobile, supporting accessibility, are the things that should have weight
  295. # [01:57] <chaals> ack MikeSmith
  296. # [01:57] <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we should give weight to valid markup, and probably not use "valid" at all (use "conformant" instead) for this case anyway
  297. # [01:57] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
  298. # [01:57] <Chris> mjs, what does "cross-browser" capture for you that "valid markup" doesn't?
  299. # [01:57] <mjs> valid/conforming markup is a minority of web content and non-representative of the general web
  300. # [01:57] <MikeSmith> even the term "well formed" is not appropriate here
  301. # [01:57] <mjs> cross-browser means it works in multiple browsers today
  302. # [01:58] <Chris> that's true. Would you give weight to overlapping <b> and <i> tags?
  303. # [01:58] <mjs> in other words, content that only works in a single version of a single browser might be given less weight
  304. # [01:58] <chaals> [how many is multiple...?]
  305. # [01:58] <chaals> [mjs, more browers is better as a rule for giving weight?]
  306. # [01:58] <mjs> overlapping <b> and <i> should continue to be supported in a reasonably compatible way, yes, and I think the spec does that
  307. # [01:59] <chaals> Mike: Wellformed etc are relevant to XML, but not really HTML. Sticking to "conformant" makes more sense, but I agree with Maciej that it is not necessary to change this.
  308. # [02:00] <Chris> I think "cross-browser" actually doesn't capture the majority of web content or is representative of the general web.
  309. # [02:00] * Joins: deltab (deltab@82.36.30.34)
  310. # [02:00] <Zakim> -MikeSmith
  311. # [02:00] <Chris> "works in IE6" probably would, though I'm not suggesting that as a replacement.
  312. # [02:00] <chaals> CMN:I think that accessibility is a reason to support markup that doesn't break in most browsers, even if it isn't strongly supported across browsers.
  313. # [02:01] <Chris> Maybe the right focus is to say "real-world, existing content on the current web should be given the most weight."
  314. # [02:01] <chaals> ... which is sort of related to the "don't reinvent the wheel principle". Maybe that is strong enough to carry the point, if mentioned in the universal access principle
  315. # [02:02] <chaals> Chris: Validity is perhaps not the best target given today's web. "cross browser as representative of the real world web"
  316. # [02:02] <mjs> chaals: obviously some of this is too fuzzy to quantify, but I think both the amount of content and how many browsers it works in is relevant
  317. # [02:02] <oedipus> what about: "Browsers should retain residual markup designed for a specific purpose, such as accessibility or internationalization. Simply because new technologies and superior mechanisms have been identified, not all of them have been implemented. Moreover, disabled users are more likely to be users of "legacy technology" because it is the only technology that interacts correctly with third-party assistive technologies"
  318. # [02:02] <mjs> chaals: also popularity of specific sites
  319. # [02:03] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  320. # [02:03] <chaals> [mjs: amount and number of browsers makes sense to me]
  321. # [02:03] <billyjack> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  322. # [02:03] <Zakim> ok, billyjack; the call is being made
  323. # [02:03] <Zakim> +Mike
  324. # [02:03] <chaals> [... popularity of specific sites is mor difficult to measure... There are some hideously popular Indian sites with appalling markup...]
  325. # [02:04] <mjs> Chris: if you factor in both quantity and popularity of content, I think "cross-browser" is a fairly good standard
  326. # [02:04] <Chris> Okay. I think we want wording, then, that captures "real-world, existing content on the web" and "cross-browser" standard.
  327. # [02:04] <mjs> Chris: the basic idea is if there is some Firefox-only intranet site, we don't necessarily want to cater to every detail it depends on
  328. # [02:04] * oedipus chaals: there are more than a few foundation for the [your favorite cause here] that are completely inaccessible too...
  329. # [02:04] * billyjack apologizes for dropping on and off ... my f*cking Skype client on Max OSX keeps making me lose my wireless modem connection (this only happens when I use Skype...)
  330. # [02:05] * oedipus same here
  331. # [02:05] <mjs> Chris: in part because we have no way to be aware of all such sites or know anything about what they depend on
  332. # [02:05] * oedipus although i'm not on a mac
  333. # [02:05] <Chris> I get that. But what about IE behavior on the public web, that a lot of public web content relies on.
  334. # [02:06] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  335. # [02:06] <chaals> CMN: So I am happy with "cross-browser real world content" given this is just a principle, and will make further suggestions in relation to other principles.
  336. # [02:06] <mjs> If there is a large number of reasonably popular sites that depend critically on some IE-only feature, and currently fail in all other browsers, we should cater to that
  337. # [02:06] <Chris> I'd like to capture cross-browser (I do value that), and "real-world" as separate principles.
  338. # [02:06] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  339. # [02:06] <oedipus> i don't understand what "cross-browser real world content" means
  340. # [02:06] <Chris> sorry, not principles - inputs to this principle.
  341. # [02:06] <mjs> I agree
  342. # [02:06] <Zakim> -Sam
  343. # [02:07] <chaals> [mjs not necessarily, since there is a lot of very popular korean content that depends on ActiveX and won't get supported whatever we say...]
  344. # [02:07] <Chris> "Real-world content, particularly that supported across browsers, should be given the most weight."?
  345. # [02:07] <MikeSmith> ["sites that are known to work reliably across browsers"]
  346. # [02:07] <chaals> CMN: Like Mike's wording
  347. # [02:07] <Chris> Mike - that captures x-browser, but not real-world. They're not necessarily the same set.
  348. # [02:08] <oedipus> GJR: + and with third party assistive technologies or APIs
  349. # [02:08] <mjs> chaals: support for ActiveX is out of scope for HTML I think
  350. # [02:08] <MikeSmith> real-world = production sites that are not manufactured for testing but are intended to provide real information or real services to users
  351. # [02:09] <oedipus> my plus was to mikesmith's "sites that are known to work reliably across browsers"
  352. # [02:09] <mjs> Chris: I will take a shot at rephrasing it to indicate that multiple factors are relevant
  353. # [02:09] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  354. # [02:09] <chaals> CMN: When you have the two factors together, they are more important than they would be individually
  355. # [02:09] <mjs> chaals: defining a cross-browser ActiveX ABI might aid interoperability but I don't think it is a task for this WG
  356. # [02:10] <mjs> I would question whether there is a lot of popular content that only works when you have ActiveX, because we don't get a whole lot of bugs where that turns out to be the case
  357. # [02:10] <mjs> but that seems like a side issue
  358. # [02:11] * chaals note chris off for a minute
  359. # [02:11] * Quits: hasather_ (hasather@90.227.221.48) (Quit: leaving)
  360. # [02:11] * oedipus mjs - go to any legitimate "kids" site and you'll have to download a boatload of activeX controls
  361. # [02:11] <Chris> OK. I suggested thinking of marquee as an example rather than activex.
  362. # [02:11] <chaals> Propose: MJS come up with wording that clarifies the importance of cross browser, real world, accessible, and the combination of these
  363. # [02:11] <mjs> Safari supports marquee and I think Mozilla might as well
  364. # [02:12] <oedipus> as long as there is user control to stop scrolling, and a means to obtain the contents of the stream, then , yeah, put in marquee
  365. # [02:12] <Chris> Mozilla didn't the last I checked. (Note that I use that as an example because I HATE that #$%*ing tag. :))
  366. # [02:12] <chaals> s/accessible/working with accessibiltiy technologies/
  367. # [02:12] * chaals wonders if we can get Opera to support marquee...
  368. # [02:13] <billmason> The current FF 2.0 does support marquee.
  369. # [02:13] * oedipus ain't gonna get lynx to implement it, either
  370. # [02:13] <Chris> heh
  371. # [02:13] <Chris> I know the Emacs-w3 author... :)
  372. # [02:14] * oedipus ChrisW - you're actually beginning to show your age!
  373. # [02:14] <Chris> doesn't understand Karl's feedback
  374. # [02:14] <chaals> Chris: You can't parse and not make something functional in HTML 5 ...
  375. # [02:15] <Chris> oedipus - actually, he's been one of my best friends for the last dozen or so years...
  376. # [02:15] <chaals> RESOLUTION: MJS come up with wording that clarifies the importance of cross browser, real world, works with accessibility technology, and the combination of these
  377. # [02:15] <Zakim> -Mike
  378. # [02:15] <chaals> ACTION: Chris follow up with Karl about his comment on "support existing content"
  379. # [02:15] * RRSAgent records action 11
  380. # [02:16] <chaals> Nik Thierry doesn't acre about supporting old content.
  381. # [02:16] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.235)
  382. # [02:16] <MikeSmith> Zakim, please call Mike-Mobile
  383. # [02:16] <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
  384. # [02:16] <Zakim> +Mike
  385. # [02:16] <chaals> Chris: Think this is a minority opinion
  386. # [02:16] <chaals> rrsagent, make log public
  387. # [02:16] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, chaals
  388. # [02:17] <chaals> Philip Taylor thinks valid cross browser content should be given most weight, invalid content ignored.
  389. # [02:17] <oedipus> nice sentiment, but would put most conent behind a firewall
  390. # [02:17] <chaals> CMN: I would like to support that, but given the web today I think it is unrealistic
  391. # [02:17] <chaals> Chris: There is invalid and invalid...
  392. # [02:17] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  393. # [02:18] <Chris> I'd like for my legacy in 20-30 years to NOT be overlapping <b> and <i> tags... but the pragmatist in me doesn't know how to avoid that.
  394. # [02:18] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.104.196) (Ping timeout)
  395. # [02:18] * MikeSmith thinks we really need a way of distinguishing by name between the two Philipp Taylors...
  396. # [02:18] * MikeSmith middle initial?
  397. # [02:19] * oedipus call 'em all bruce!
  398. # [02:19] <MikeSmith> Philip` - what's your middle initial?
  399. # [02:19] <Chris> thing one and thing two? :) Sorry, my daughter's two and in to Dr. Suess...
  400. # [02:19] <Philip`> J
  401. # [02:19] <Philip`> I think we should just have a duel to the death
  402. # [02:20] * oedipus i'll be your second
  403. # [02:20] <Chris> that would be simpler, yes.
  404. # [02:20] <MikeSmith> let's take a resolution on Philip`'s suggestion
  405. # [02:20] <mjs_> Chris: I'm hoping HTML5 will make conformance checking a more appealing and therefore hopefully more widespread practice
  406. # [02:20] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  407. # [02:21] <mjs> (by removing bogus reasons that content might fail checking and enabling it to find new kinds of problems like table integrity failures)
  408. # [02:21] <chaals> Chris: It would be nice to have two manuals for HTML 5. One for browser implementors to read, and one for everyone writing content to read.
  409. # [02:21] * Quits: Bob_le_Pointu (mallory@80.248.208.232) (Ping timeout)
  410. # [02:21] <Chris> (Not really, but something to discourage poor practices that must still be supported)
  411. # [02:22] <chaals> CMN: That is the principle behind deprecating things in HTML 4, and there is such a concept in the draft already. maybe we can ask mjs to capture that more clearly?
  412. # [02:22] <Chris> Maciej, do you think HTML5 will discourage poor practices (even though they're still supported, as they must)?
  413. # [02:23] <oedipus> worried about splintering of HTML5 along implementer/author lines
  414. # [02:23] <mjs> chaals: one thing I'd like to do is add an introduction to the design principles is to make clear the distinction between the conforming language and the supported language
  415. # [02:23] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  416. # [02:23] <Chris> Don't worry, oedipus, I don't really mean it.
  417. # [02:23] <mjs> chaals: because some of the principles apply only to one or the other, and it's kind of confusing as is
  418. # [02:23] <Chris> mjs - I like that idea.
  419. # [02:23] <chaals> mjs, me too :)
  420. # [02:23] <Chris> I think it might need to extend to this principle, or be mentioned in it.
  421. # [02:24] * oedipus chaals you better knock on wood
  422. # [02:24] <Chris> (That "support" does not necessarily mean "condone".)
  423. # [02:24] <mjs> Chris: I think if we can make conformance checking have a great benefit/cost ratio, and market it effectively as a good and beneficial practice, we might be able to reduce the incidence of poor authoring practices
  424. # [02:25] <chaals> CMN: maybe this is actually a principle in its own right: Authors shuld use good markup, but it is helpful to tell browsers how to support existing stuff even if it is bad.
  425. # [02:25] <oedipus> it's unavoidable
  426. # [02:25] <mjs> right now a lot of people violate HTML4 conformance in some trivial way because they think they have to, and then they just give up and throw out the baby with the bathwater
  427. # [02:25] <Chris> agreed. Not sure I see the way clear to that as well as you do right now, but I agree.
  428. # [02:25] <oedipus> poor authoring
  429. # [02:26] <oedipus> need as strong AU compliance as UA compliance!!!
  430. # [02:26] <mjs> I agree it is unavoidable; I think we should both encourage more good authoring, and make sure we deal with not-as-great authoring as well as we can
  431. # [02:26] * oedipus lol
  432. # [02:26] <Chris> exactly. Capture that. :)
  433. # [02:27] * oedipus wow - that actually went quicker than i thought
  434. # [02:27] <chaals> RESOLUTION: We ask MJS to bring out more strongly in the draft that we need to encourage good authoring, and explain how to deal with not-so-good authoring... :)
  435. # [02:27] <Chris> the first two principles? :)
  436. # [02:28] <Zakim> -Mike
  437. # [02:28] <mjs> I might have time to do some more feedback gathering and perhaps some editing later tonight
  438. # [02:28] <Chris> OK, that's all the time we have for today, folks. Dan will chair next week's telecon.
  439. # [02:28] <oedipus> so the next telecon picks up on "Do Not Reinvent the Wheel" or reviews this telecon's proposed resolutions and completed action items?
  440. # [02:28] <Chris> OK.
  441. # [02:28] * chaals waits for the mailstorm and the fifteenth teleconference reviewing the fourteenth teleconference's proposals for the first two resolutions...
  442. # [02:28] * oedipus this is the wattle...
  443. # [02:28] <Chris> picks up DNRtW. review of this telecon is in email.
  444. # [02:29] <oedipus> ok
  445. # [02:29] <Chris> thanks all.
  446. # [02:29] * oedipus thanks for minuting chaals
  447. # [02:29] <chaals> ADJOURNED
  448. # [02:29] * MikeSmith - chaals, if you want to clean up minutes and send to me, I can commit
  449. # [02:29] <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
  450. # [02:29] <mjs> I'm hoping I can field some of the feedback in advance of the telecom progress through it, maybe that will help
  451. # [02:29] * chaals Mike, you are welcome to clean up as well...
  452. # [02:29] * Quits: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.73) (Quit: Chris)
  453. # [02:29] * oedipus i thought chaals was the one in need of commitment
  454. # [02:29] * Quits: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221) (Ping timeout)
  455. # [02:29] * Joins: Bob_le_Pointu (mallory@80.248.208.232)
  456. # [02:30] <chaals> zakim, who is here?
  457. # [02:30] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, chaals
  458. # [02:30] <Zakim> On IRC I see Bob_le_Pointu, karl, olivier, mjs, MikeSmith, deltab, oedipus, hober, sbuluf, johnst, robburns, rubys, Zakim, aroben, chaals, bogi, laplink, gsnedders, xover,
  459. # [02:30] <Zakim> ... billmason, jmb, tH, hendry, zcorpan_, jgraham, Philip`, Thezilch, krijnh, Lachy, drry, Hixie, gavin_, beowulf, Yudai, Dashiva, RRSAgent, DanC
  460. # [02:30] * Quits: johnst (johnst@83.89.44.198) (Quit: Leaving)
  461. # [02:30] <chaals> RRSAgent, draft minutes
  462. # [02:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/31-html-wg-minutes.html chaals
  463. # [02:30] * MikeSmith thanks chaals for that welcome, and in return, welcomes chaals do some initial clean-up on them first
  464. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make log public
  465. # [02:30] <RRSAgent> I have made the request, MikeSmith
  466. # [02:31] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Connection reset by peer)
  467. # [02:32] <Philip`> (About separate documents for implementors and authors: I tried writing some bits at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/ref/ref.html a while ago and I think it's much easier to read than the original spec)
  468. # [02:33] <Philip`> (and it seems more practical than the earlier attempts to hide non-author-relevant bits of the spec with CSS)
  469. # [02:33] <chaals> Philip, I agree that in the end it is good to split them out - but first we need to get a spec together that works, and that will involve working with something that is hard to read as far as I can tell :(
  470. # [02:33] <oedipus> ok, i'll have to have a listen, then
  471. # [02:35] * Joins: gavin (gavin@74.103.208.221)
  472. # [02:37] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  473. # [02:37] <Zakim> -chaals
  474. # [02:37] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  475. # [02:37] <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Gregory_Rosmaita, Sam, DanC, chaals, billyjack, MikeSmith, Mike
  476. # [02:37] * karl wonders now what chris didn't understand in my support existing content comment and wonders how to explain it better.
  477. # [02:38] <oedipus> philip`: you should send that URI to the public-html list
  478. # [02:38] * chaals not quite sure what you meant either karl.
  479. # [02:38] <chaals> MikeSmith: you there?
  480. # [02:39] <chaals> ah crud. Note for starting this telecon: RRSagent, this meeting spans midnight
  481. # [02:40] <karl> chaals: yes I acknowledge that :) but I still wonder how to better express what I think.
  482. # [02:40] <karl> There are classes of products which do not have to support all features of HTML.
  483. # [02:41] <chaals> Hmmm. I think I see your point...
  484. # [02:41] <karl> Many principles are written for browsers and not for HTML
  485. # [02:42] <karl> it was one of my general comment
  486. # [02:42] <karl> it is not HTML design principles
  487. # [02:42] <karl> but Browser design principles as it is written today
  488. # [02:43] <chaals> yeah, I get it.
  489. # [02:44] * chaals wonders if karl can take on cleaning the minutes. Since they split over midnightZ, the first two thirds is not even in public space :(
  490. # [02:45] <Philip`> oedipus: I've been meaning to sort out something like that, but haven't quite got around to it yet. (I probably need to be careful about copyright issues with copying bits of the HTML 5 spec directly, if there's any chance of it being used for something official, so I want to at least fix that)
  491. # [02:45] <oedipus> understand
  492. # [02:45] <oedipus> you should query the chairs, or just ask karl, who's here
  493. # [02:47] * Quits: xover (xover@193.157.66.5) (Ping timeout)
  494. # [02:47] * oedipus wonders if karl is cleaning up the minutes and not actively monitoring the channel
  495. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> chaals - aqui
  496. # [02:50] * Quits: tH (Rob@83.100.251.102) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  497. # [02:51] <oedipus> MikeSmith: chaals may be manually cleaning up the minutes with karl - the meeting spanned midnight and only a third of it is public visible
  498. # [02:51] <Philip`> karl: Do you know if there would be problems with me blatantly copying bits of the HTML5 draft for a new document which could conceivably be used by the HTML WG in the future?
  499. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> oedipus - I see - thanks
  500. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> chaals - http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc.html is now Public perms
  501. # [02:52] <Philip`> I'm using the WHATWG's identical copy which says "You are granted a license to use, reproduce and create derivative works of this document", in case that matters :-)
  502. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> oops
  503. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> but chaals need the minutes
  504. # [02:52] * MikeSmith is fixing now
  505. # [02:54] * MikeSmith sees no minutes there because RRSAgent never drafted them... using Online Minutes Generator to make them
  506. # [02:55] <oedipus> Philip`: if you're using the WHATWG's copy, then you can abide by its copyright declaration -- just don't put any W3C boilerplate stuff in it, or explicitly say "this draft does not reflect the opinions or consensus of anyone but the author." -- that's usually what i do when trying to work around the legal niceties
  507. # [02:58] <karl> Philip`: it depends on what you want to do with it.
  508. # [02:58] <Philip`> oedipus: Okay, that sounds sensible
  509. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> chaals - http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-minutes.html now available and Public
  510. # [02:59] <karl> it's not about the copyright I'm worried for now, but about parallel efforts
  511. # [03:00] <oedipus> stress that this is an informative, experimental version of making the spec (which is rather large) clearer
  512. # [03:00] <karl> hmm I see that the minutes needs to be polished indeed
  513. # [03:01] <oedipus> that no one should consider this normative, nor approved by anyone, but simply an effort to ascertain if the spec is easier to read (and write) along the following lines....
  514. # [03:03] <karl> about my comment on design principles. I would like that mjs write the document, replacing every occurences of browsers by implementations or softwares for himself, and then see if the principle is logical.
  515. # [03:04] <karl> If the sentence doesn't work anymore, it means that there is something specific toward a class of product, and then that it has been generalized and then declined for different class of products
  516. # [03:04] <oedipus> makes sense -- mjs are you still around?
  517. # [03:05] <mjs> I am
  518. # [03:05] <karl> that it has to be generalized
  519. # [03:05] <mjs> I will look into generalizing references where appropriate
  520. # [03:05] <mjs> I would appreciate if someone could record that suggestion on the wiki
  521. # [03:05] <karl> thanks mjs
  522. # [03:06] * karl will do it
  523. # [03:06] * oedipus thanks karl and mjs
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  526. # [03:08] * karl is adding something to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DesignPrinciplesReview
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  528. # [03:10] <oedipus> mjs: is the 21 august 2006 draft of WF2 which was submitted to and accepted by the w3c still the only draft of WF2 in w3c space? i can't locate another...
  529. # [03:11] <chaals> MikeSmith: I am still talking, and then I am going to bed I think :(
  530. # [03:11] <mjs_> oedipus: I don't know offhand
  531. # [03:11] * Zakim mjs_, you typed too many words without commas; I suspect you forgot to start with 'to ...'
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  533. # [03:13] <Philip`> oedipus: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html?rev=HEAD is 12 October 2006
  534. # [03:13] <MikeSmith> chaals - I see
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  537. # [03:21] <oedipus> thanks Philip`
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  540. # [03:28] * oedipus oedipus waves goodbye fer now to everyone and is sorry to have missed robburns, but when a man's gotta go, he's gotta go... see ya in october, chaals! oh, and thanks for the pointers Philip`!
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  543. # [03:39] <chaals> sorry Mike. Got another phone call, so won't happen until tomorrow afternoon my time...
  544. # [03:39] <MikeSmith> chaals - fine by me
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  588. # [08:06] <karl> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Evolution.html
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  627. # [15:16] <zcorpan_> poor DanC, being shot down by dean edridge... :)
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  629. # [15:19] <Lachy> that certainly was a nice rant by Dean :-)
  630. # [15:22] * beowulf is pleased to see lolcats being used as examples
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  657. # [19:43] * Philip` sees live.com has <html xmlns:web ...>
  658. # [19:44] <Philip`> though I don't know if that means they're actually doing fun things with IE's namespaces-in-HTML support
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The end :)