/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  14. # [00:29] <Xsss4hell> hi
  15. # [00:29] <Xsss4hell> is xhtml dead? #css is saying that we dev's should stick to html4.01 Strict and avoid XHTML. I heard that XHTML2 is not backwards compatible and XHTML1-1.1 is not forwards compatible, is this true?
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  17. # [00:30] <anne> some of it
  18. # [00:30] <anne> although it depends on who you ask
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  20. # [00:36] <Xsss4hell> Yes, that's true, but most people propose to not use XHTML, because of it's many annoyances
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  22. # [00:37] <anne> makes sense to me
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  29. # [00:44] <Xsss4hell> Do you know other fine links like: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/stuff ??
  30. # [00:52] <anne> http://www.whatwg.org/
  31. # [00:52] <anne> and maybe http://www.w3.org/html/ and http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
  32. # [00:52] <anne> oh, oops
  33. # [00:52] <anne> never mind me
  34. # [01:25] <emeriste> I have some issues with html that I would like those of you who have the knowledge to try to understand and consider when you make the new rules.
  35. # [01:27] <Xsss4hell> Anne sounds like a bot :)
  36. # [01:28] <Xsss4hell> there is a song about Anna the bot
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  41. # [01:56] <robburns> emeriste: what are your issues?
  42. # [01:58] <emeriste> It is a marvel to me that of all things, it is so difficult to write mathematics on the Internet. The Internet being what it is, and where it came from, math and science should be the easiest and most natural thing to mark up.
  43. # [01:59] <emeriste> Now I know there is, 'mathml' but that takes xhtml and it is ridiculously difficult to implement for a typical person, and isn't even supported in all browsers uniformly.
  44. # [01:59] <emeriste> There should be a way, using ordinary html to mark up math, (probably in the same way that mathml does it.. I mean using the same syntax if you like) without having to worry about strange xhtml things.
  45. # [02:00] <emeriste> I don't have any specialized knowledge about these things, so my comments are surely not worded in the best way, I hope that you know enough about them in order to understand the spirit of what I'm saying.
  46. # [02:00] <robburns> emeriste: Well the WG is considering namespaces for legacy html that would allow MathML in HTML (I think IE already permits this)
  47. # [02:00] <emeriste> Basically, I ought to be able to mark up mathematics as easily as I can make myself a homepage on geocities.
  48. # [02:01] <emeriste> Not being able to markup mathematics is not just an inconvenience it is a sin.
  49. # [02:01] <robburns> emeriste: If we went this route, it would basically provide what you're looking for across browsers (assuming the adopt what we specify)
  50. # [02:02] <emeriste> I dont really understand why you need all that stuff at the beginning of a document. Or why it should have to be an .xls document.
  51. # [02:03] <emeriste> I should be able to just use some program that generates mathml and put that into an html page between <math> </math> and that should work .
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  53. # [02:04] <emeriste> If you know what LaTex is, I know LaTex well enough. It should really be LaTeX code because every mathematician and scientist uses LaTex. But I'm not greedy and I recognize that Mathml is probably well designed for the web.
  54. # [02:04] <robburns> emeriste: I see. Well the namespace declaration is only a standard URI that you would add to those wrapper <math> tags. The program you're talking about that generates the math could also generate that URI
  55. # [02:04] <emeriste> There are plenty of programs that convert LaTex to mathml so that's not a problem.
  56. # [02:05] <robburns> emeriste: Like I said I think adding the namespace (which means compound document) support would basically accomplish what you're asking for.
  57. # [02:06] <emeriste> I sure do hope you might do that. Understandably marking up math is going to be a little more tricky than marking up ordinary english since math typesetting is not one dimensional (it doesnt just read left to right, if you get me), but it should be ALMOST just as easy. And using ordinary html essentially.
  58. # [02:07] <robburns> emeriste: Yes, but MathML already solves many of those problems. Which is why simply making HTML capable of hosting a compound document — in other words, allowing fragments from other specification — it lets us solve the problem in a very efficient way.
  59. # [02:07] <Philip> If you need an external tool to convert something readable like LaTeX into MathML, what are the problems with converting it into a PNG image and embedding that in the page?
  60. # [02:07] <emeriste> Absolutely. And I think maybe, it makes xhmtl irrelevant.
  61. # [02:08] <emeriste> Philip -- png doesn't resize with the rest of the document and the math content can't be searched?
  62. # [02:09] <emeriste> Philip -- and the background color of the page and the png don't change together.
  63. # [02:10] <emeriste> Philip -- Admitedly those are possibly very superficial objections.
  64. # [02:10] <robburns> emeriste: I don't really think it would necessarily make xhtml irrelevant . There are many other advantages to XHTML. For example, you can already accomplish much of what you're looking to accomplish by using XHTML and serving it to IE as text/html and take advantage of IE's namespaces in html.
  65. # [02:11] <emeriste> Robburns -- html is much easier to use than XHTML. It took me forever to get mathml to work and I still don't really understand what I did. :)
  66. # [02:11] <robburns> emeriste: Allowing MathML as MathML instead of PnG also provides better support for device independence. Waiting until the last possible moment to rasterize the math content makes it usable on many other devices. It also permits user's to provide their own styling
  67. # [02:12] <emeriste> Robburns -- Why can't it be as simple as, there is some syntax which browsers recognize, and then they render it into math on the page? Why do we need all that doctype stuff etc.
  68. # [02:12] <robburns> emeriste: how long did it take to get Mathml to work in legacy html?
  69. # [02:13] <robburns> emeriste: the doctype stuff is there in both XHTml and HTMl. If you mean the nsamespace URI, that doesn't seem all that complicated to me. It just allows greater flexibility in extending documents without going through long WG processes. That seems like a huge benefit to me for just inserting a standardized URI for each document component you want to use.
  70. # [02:14] <emeriste> Well it took ME a long time because my background in HTML is very slight and my knoweldge of xhmt is non existent. I use firefox and finally after a lot of experimentation I made a breakthrough.
  71. # [02:15] <emeriste> xhtml*
  72. # [02:15] <robburns> emeriste: what I think we should really be expecting is for authoring applications to make all or this stuff very simple and provide a GUI to do this with. Then it doesn't really matter what the underlying format looks like. Imagine how difficult it would be to author PNGs if you had to edit the raw bytes.
  73. # [02:16] <emeriste> Yes I think that's basically true.
  74. # [02:16] <robburns> emeriste: my guess it the big breakthrough in getting this to work is making sure the XHTML file has a filename extension of .xhtml rather than .html
  75. # [02:16] <emeriste> I thought initially that it would be realistic to 'code' the mathml 'by hand' but that is not realistic.
  76. # [02:17] <Philip> LaTeX suggests that if you design the underlying format properly, you won't need to provide a GUI
  77. # [02:17] <emeriste> Yes that was definitely a major thing.
  78. # [02:17] <robburns> MathML can be very involved (especially compared to LateX and such
  79. # [02:19] <emeriste> I think it should be as simple as opening up any simple html page and inserting something like this <math> LaTeX code here </math>, without making any other changes to the html document.
  80. # [02:19] <emeriste> but i realize that using LaTeX is probably not going to happen so at least I wish it was as easy as...
  81. # [02:19] <robburns> Philip: I think that's one philosophy, but not one I subscribe to. I don't really understand the view that tries to avoid GUIs. Also LaTeX is more a typesetting language than a semantic one. So the resulting documents are not as unambiguously interpreted as MathML ones. And for mathematics that can be important since the document can even be evaluated and visualized in a live sort of way.
  82. # [02:19] <Philip> emeriste: What should happen when a user with a browser that doesn't support MathML (because it's an old browser, or because it's missing that featre) looks at that page?
  83. # [02:20] <emeriste> Opening up any html page and inserting something like <math> mathml code here </math> and not doing anything else differently than I would for any other html page.
  84. # [02:21] <robburns> This is where Sander's idea of an ALT element might come in handy too. An author could provide a PNG alternate for embedded MathML. The UA would only need to download the PNG if it could not process the MathML
  85. # [02:22] <emeriste> Yes I think that the author would probably provide an alternative or else an apology suggesting where to update their browser.
  86. # [02:22] <robburns> It reverses the usual alternate. The MathML is the primary content and the PNG is the alternate
  87. # [02:23] <robburns> Or maybe that's not such a reversal its more like the standard OBJECT fallback scenario where MathML provides an application as the primary content and then a containing fallback OBJECT would provide a PNG as fallback to the MathML component.
  88. # [02:26] <emeriste> My naive understanding of the way that html works is that it's a set of tags that tell the browser how to render what's between them. Browsers should just know that <math> in html means that what's between them is LaTeX, or mathML or whatever else you want to make up to describe the equation to the browser, and then the browser should render it all on the page, where the <math> </math> tags have put it.
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  90. # [02:27] <emeriste> Said another way, it ought to be just as easy to put math on my geocities page, as it is for me to put a paragraph on it, or an image, or chinese or whatever else. Rudimentary html.
  91. # [02:31] <robburns> Well, it is almost that easy. However, it's designed to be more flexible than that. So if you put <math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'> </math>, then you're free to include any MathML inside that component. The addition of the namespace URI is to allow other math grammars to be created. Once you understand the namespace URI, it's a fairly simple concept. It could be made easier to remember rather than requiring everyone to remember what year i
  92. # [02:32] <emeriste> Given the web's beginnings, and the fact that all scientists and mathematicians use the internet, I'm really surprised that math isn't the simplest thing to put on the web.
  93. # [02:33] <robburns> member what year it is associated with. For example it could have been: "http://www.w3.org/namespace/mathml". That way you just have to remember its associated with W3C and you don't even need to remember its
  94. # [02:33] <emeriste> Okay, I completely recognize the very likely possibility that most of my problems stem from my ignorance. And I mean that. :)
  95. # [02:34] <emeriste> I didn't have to take an afternoon to figure out how to make my own geocities page, but I did have to take several hours to get Firefox to read my mathml so that makes me think it should be easier. :)
  96. # [02:34] <robburns> emeriste: sometimes its also a problem in easily finding the documentation or the tools to accomplish what you want
  97. # [02:34] <robburns> I think if IE had adopted XHTMl, you would have found many more avenues to help you find a quick solution.
  98. # [02:35] <robburns> it would be more mainstream and easier to find help
  99. # [02:36] <robburns> Also if we bring IE'-like support for MathML and other namesapces to other browsers, then it will also become more mainstream for legacy HTML
  100. # [02:37] <emeriste> From the sound of it, I think what you were saying about "namespaces for legacy html" might be a good idea. You can understand the spirit of what I'm saying and decide. If so, then I vote for that. Please keep it in mind when you talk to people and do your thing. :)
  101. # [02:39] <emeriste> Also IE doesn't "just" read mathml. IE can't read Mathml without a plugin like math player.
  102. # [02:39] <emeriste> That also makes mathml different from what I'm calling, "rudimentary html"
  103. # [02:40] <emeriste> I guess what I'm thinking is that putting math on your page should be just like putting a table on your page. If you get me.
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  138. # [10:03] * anne wonders why Leif is so confused by rowgroup=
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  140. # [10:29] <hsivonen> what happened to publishing FPWDs in early September?
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  143. # [10:34] <anne> same as to publishing in August?
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  150. # [11:55] <hsivonen> what's the recommended way to lurk on the forms tf list? is it now open for subscriptions?
  151. # [12:08] <mjs> not as far as I know
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  153. # [13:17] <Lachy> hsivonen, yes, you can subscribe to the forms tf list
  154. # [13:18] <Lachy> (I'm the list's moderator, so I have to approve your subscription)
  155. # [13:18] <Lachy> but posting to it is generally restricted to the TF members
  156. # [13:19] <hsivonen> Lachy: what's the list name?
  157. # [13:20] <hsivonen> found it
  158. # [13:20] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/
  159. # [13:20] <hsivonen> subsciption request sent
  160. # [13:23] <Lachy> hsivonen, you still need to confirm it
  161. # [13:23] <Lachy> never mind, it came through
  162. # [13:24] * zcorpan_ sent a request too
  163. # [13:30] <Lachy> hsivonen, zcorpan_, done
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  199. # [14:14] <hsivonen> Lachy: thanks for the subscription
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  217. # [16:58] <Philip> jgraham: The Table Inspector says "Interprert" on the front page
  218. # [16:59] <Philip> http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcanvex.lazyilluminati.com%2Fmisc%2Fstats%2Fscripttypes2.html&algorithm=smartcolspan - that one doesn't work very well there
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  259. # Session Close: Tue Sep 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)