/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-13 / end

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  115. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> so what happens with publishing?
  116. # [10:26] <zcorpan_> i thought we were supposed to publish the spec in august
  117. # [10:27] <sbuluf> chris wilson's review is still due, right? perhaps that?
  118. # [10:29] <Lachy> zcorpan_, I updated update-markers.php with some code to commit changes to the DB.
  119. # [10:29] <Lachy> it's not finished yet, it still needs a better UI for confirming changes and the code may need a little cleaning up
  120. # [10:30] <zcorpan_> Lachy: great!
  121. # [10:30] <Lachy> you can test it out http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate.html
  122. # [10:30] <Lachy> that test just submits directly to the confirmation script, bypassing the confirmation email
  123. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> "The changes have been confirmed,"
  124. # [10:31] <zcorpan_> ok
  125. # [10:31] <Lachy> check this to see that the changes were made http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate-web-apps.php
  126. # [10:32] <zcorpan_> yep
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  129. # [10:44] <Hixie> we were supposed to publish in june
  130. # [10:45] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah, i meant last i heard
  131. # [10:46] <Hixie> ah
  132. # [10:46] * Hixie isn't clear on why we haven't published _something_ yet
  133. # [10:46] <Hixie> (not that i think we need to publish anything)
  134. # [10:47] <Hixie> (but if we want to publish something, it seems like it would be trivial to find something to publish and just put it out there)
  135. # [10:50] <sbuluf> i think chris wilson's review might be the cause
  136. # [10:50] <Hixie> why?
  137. # [10:50] <Hixie> it's not like i'm going to change the spec as soon as we get his review
  138. # [10:50] <Hixie> it'll hit the queue just like everyone else's feedback
  139. # [10:51] <Hixie> (though it sure will be nice to finally have a review from microsoft)
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  168. # [15:06] <emeriste> I have no special knowledge of html and I am really grateful that all of you work on making it better.
  169. # [15:08] <emeriste> I want to promote a certain idea although I may not have the words to express it perfectly. You can understand the spirit of what I mean --- I want html to make typesetting mathematics as easy as putting a table on your page. Something like <math> (some sort of math syntax) </math> and it works.
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  176. # [15:18] <hsivonen> emeriste: transferring MathML inside text/html is an open issue
  177. # [15:18] * anne wonders how often emeriste will repeat this request
  178. # [15:18] * anne has heard it before
  179. # [15:20] <emeriste> hsivonen - By open issue you mean it's something that you are considering?
  180. # [15:21] <hsivonen> emeriste: yes. it has been proposed but not rejected.
  181. # [15:21] <emeriste> anne -- I was talking to someone else in here about it few days ago, but I don't see them here now.
  182. # [15:21] <hsivonen> emeriste: lack of existing MathML buy-in from non-Mozilla vendors is a complicating factor considering getting two independent and interoperable implementations
  183. # [15:21] <emeriste> hsivonen -- I cant think of anything more important. Given what the Internet is, and the fact that all mathematicians, teachers, and scientists use the internet, it is astounding that you cannot mark up math in a trivial way.
  184. # [15:22] <hsivonen> emeriste: math in high on complexity and low on money. :-(
  185. # [15:23] <emeriste> hsivonen - mathML is probably fine. I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into it. All html has to do is recognize it between simple <math> tags.
  186. # [15:24] <anne> "simple"
  187. # [15:24] <emeriste> Yeah I told you I'm naive about things but you can understand what I mean anyway.
  188. # [15:24] <anne> actually, what I meant is that it's non-trivial to come up with a good solution
  189. # [15:24] <anne> I quoted the wrong word
  190. # [15:25] <emeriste> It should be 'rudimentary' html. Just like when you put a table on your web page. <table> some instructions </table>
  191. # [15:25] <emeriste> <math> some instructions (probably in mathML) </math>
  192. # [15:25] <hsivonen> emeriste: there have been at least three proposed ways of doing this, but we haven't been actively been pursuing this as a WG
  193. # [15:25] <anne> yeah, I agree it should be really simple if we do it
  194. # [15:25] <hsivonen> one might argue that politically the time is not right at the moment
  195. # [15:25] * anne is not much of a fan of the namespaced solutions
  196. # [15:26] <emeriste> The best time would have been 10 years ago. The second best time is now. :)
  197. # [15:27] <emeriste> I don't understand namespace or mime or all that. I don't get why I need to use convoluted xhtml that takes me half a day to figure out. I'm sure there are reasons. I recognize my ignorance.
  198. # [15:28] <emeriste> The Internet is THE medium for communicating ideas. That is all the more so for technical ideas like math and science. For you good people to make math easy to communicate over the Internet would be a singular contribution to humanity.
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  219. # [16:49] <DanC> anne, have you talked with mjs about design principles lately?
  220. # [16:50] * mjs waves
  221. # [16:50] <DanC> ah. hi mjs
  222. # [16:50] <mjs> hello DanC
  223. # [16:51] <DanC> still 1.4 Aug 16 at http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
  224. # [16:51] <DanC> any news since then?
  225. # [16:51] * anne hasn't
  226. # [16:52] <DanC> I'd sure like to get a 1st WD done.
  227. # [16:52] <anne> publish the spec :)
  228. # [16:52] <DanC> people pushed back on the diff document and asked for design principles, but now they seem more interested in @title and such.
  229. # [16:52] <mjs> I haven't had time to edit since then, but I will likely have time today
  230. # [16:53] <DanC> mjs, do you agree with anne that the design principles shouldn't be top priority?
  231. # [16:53] <mjs> DanC: I'd most like to see a 1st WD of the actual spec, but it would probably be harder to get people to agree to that
  232. # [16:54] <anne> (I agree it would be nice to publish the design principles though. Although when we initially wrote them up it was to explain some of the design rationale of HTML5 and then quickly turned into a rathole once exposed to public-html.)
  233. # [16:54] <mjs> on the other hand, I don't think there's anything we could publish that wouldn't cause at least some level of controversy
  234. # [16:54] <DanC> the amount of agreement I want/need for 1st WD decreases as time goes on.
  235. # [16:55] <mjs> anyway, my plan was to spend the rest of this morning processing design principles feedback, after I get to the office
  236. # [16:55] <anne> (I'm also not sure what the big deal is, Working Drafts are sort of expected to contain bugs and things people might disagree with.)
  237. # [16:55] <hsivonen> I'm not really here, but it seems that the terms "Cowpaths" and "Real Problems" are problematic
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  239. # [16:55] <mjs> I would like to at least add an intro, and recast some of the principles where the names have spawned vast amounts of confusion
  240. # [16:56] <DanC> the big deal is that not everybody has experience with the Working Draft process, and there's a lot of mistrust.
  241. # [16:56] <hsivonen> As I see it, "Solve Real Problems" means "Don't Reward Concern Trollish Behavior" and "No Architecture Astronautics"
  242. # [16:56] <DanC> mjs, there's a telcon scheduled for today at 4p Pacific time; anything you can do by then is golden.
  243. # [16:56] <mjs> I have meetings all afternoon but the rest of my morning is free
  244. # [16:56] <DanC> ok, I'll relay your regrets for the telcon
  245. # [17:01] <mjs> I'll send a status update sometime in the early afternoon (pacific time)
  246. # [17:04] <DanC> great.
  247. # [17:06] <anne> By the way, I'm not sure if I should remain co-editor now that mjs is editing the document although I suppose I could make minor edits if requested...
  248. # [17:08] <mjs> I'd prefer to have someone available as backup at least
  249. # [17:08] <DanC> hmm... I'd like to have some redundancy....
  250. # [17:08] <mjs> if you don't mind
  251. # [17:09] <anne> sure
  252. # [17:09] <DanC> it's ok with me if you play mostly a back-up role, anne. I'll know not to expect you to know the up-to-the-minute status, defend the document against all comers, that sort of thing.
  253. # [17:10] * DanC if the CSS blog still consists of just one boring posting... nope... wow... all sorts of stuff. http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS
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  298. # [22:22] <anne> seems the TAG didn't reopen their MIME type issue...
  299. # [22:22] <anne> oh well
  300. # [22:24] <anne> (issue-24, fwiw)
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  308. # [22:44] <anne> mjs, since a while there are links such as http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
  309. # [22:44] <mjs> anne: oh, cool
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  315. # [22:52] <Philip> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/vstudio/Aa700736.aspx in Opera outputs '<msdn:herocontrol id="HeroControl1" totalherodiv="1" ... xmlns:msdn="http://msdn.microsoft.com"> </msdn:herocontrol>' as plain text
  316. # [22:52] <Philip> but I can't tell whether they were trying to use namespaces in HTML, or in actual real XML, and can't tell why it works in Firefox but not Opera
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  319. # [23:03] <anne> that's because we support <![CDATA[
  320. # [23:03] <Philip> Ah - by "support", do you mean "parse stupidly"? ;-)
  321. # [23:04] <anne> something that goes for treating it differently from a bogus comment
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  324. # [23:05] <mjs> I rewrote http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html#support-existing-content
  325. # [23:05] <mjs> further comments welcome
  326. # [23:07] <anne> Philip, first example I've seen where supporting <![CDATA[ is annoying
  327. # [23:08] <Philip> Hmm, Opera 9.5 still does <![CDATA[ x[y ]]> nonsensically
  328. # [23:09] <jgraham> mjs: I'm not sure you can start a sentence with "or" (at least it doesn't read well to me although I don't doubt that someone will point out that it's allowed per some supposed spec. for English grammar. However it's a very very minor point and not worth worrying about)
  329. # [23:10] <jgraham> Apart from that it looks great
  330. # [23:11] <mjs> jgraham: you can start a sentence with "and" or "but", so I think it's ok
  331. # [23:11] * mjs is working on "Degrade Gracefully" now
  332. # [23:12] <gavin_> isn't starting a sentence with a conjunction a major point of debate among English language scholars? :)
  333. # [23:12] <jgraham> mjs: I'm just saying it fails the "acceptability test" for this native speaker
  334. # [23:13] <mjs> gavin: It is. But I don't care.
  335. # [23:13] <gavin_> me neither!
  336. # [23:14] <mjs> actually, striking the "Or," makes it read better anyway
  337. # [23:14] <jgraham> gavin_: I thought people had got past that and people just went with "do people fluent in the language think it's OK". Of course there are disagreements between different fluent speakers
  338. # [23:15] <Hixie> Or, you can just say that "or" is ok to use in stylistic situations. :-)
  339. # [23:15] <mjs> I changed it because the word was unhelpful
  340. # [23:15] <anne> Philip, yeah, no point improving it... we should probably remove support for it though
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  348. # Session Close: Fri Sep 14 00:00:00 2007

The end :)