/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-22 / end

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  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  66. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> amen to Jukka Korpela's www-html posting about layout tables in HTML -
  67. # [14:23] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/mid/Pine.SOC.4.64.0709221458330.442@hopeatilhi.cs.tut.fi
  68. # [14:25] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I get 404
  69. # [14:26] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Sep/0028.html seems to work
  70. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> hsivonen - hmm, I got 404 the message ID link too
  71. # [14:26] <MikeSmith> dunno why
  72. # [14:27] <MikeSmith> anyway, "using tables for layout is absolutely bad" seems to me another in the list of dogmatic/religious principles that many people have just unquestionaly accepted, as if it's axiomatic
  73. # [14:28] <hsivonen> yeah
  74. # [14:32] <hsivonen> even more axiomatic is the notion that tables are so bad that even CSS tables are bad
  75. # [14:32] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2002Feb/0125.html
  76. # [14:33] <MikeSmith> heh
  77. # [14:35] <MikeSmith> I guess there's some consistency in that position at least.
  78. # [14:37] <MikeSmith> I mean, I wonder if you were to ask many don't-use-tables-for-layout advocates why it's OK to use CSS tables instead, they might have a hard time giving you a sensible explanation
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  80. # [14:37] <Sander> I'd suspect many would be able to put forth the notion that CSS doesn't pretend to hold any _meaning_
  81. # [14:38] <krijn> The don't-use-table-for-layout people are responsible for a lot of work and jobs though :)
  82. # [14:39] <Sander> Of course, practically speaking tables (whether CSS or HTML) are bad just because doing major maintaining on a website with them is hell.
  83. # [14:39] <hsivonen> Sander: if you are a markup consumer, you are better off not trusting that tables have meaning
  84. # [14:39] <hsivonen> of course, this fails sometimes
  85. # [14:40] <hsivonen> like in Opera for Mobile one of the subtables in reittiopas.fi results would be better unlinearized
  86. # [14:40] <hsivonen> but still, most of the time, linealization is a better guess
  87. # [14:41] <hsivonen> now, making site authors cooperate by getting rid of layout tables is unrealistic
  88. # [14:42] <hsivonen> flagging real data tables in what might actually work
  89. # [14:43] <hsivonen> the table layout model is useful
  90. # [14:43] <hsivonen> (on large displays)
  91. # [14:44] <hsivonen> and doing it in CSS only has a bad compat story with legacy browsers and even the current IE
  92. # [14:46] <hsivonen> from the HTML5 draft: "Big Issue: we need some editorial text on how layout tables are bad practice and non-conforming"
  93. # [14:47] <hsivonen> Sander: maintaining a complex float system isn't exactly non-hell
  94. # [14:48] <hsivonen> and positioning severely sucks from the user perspective
  95. # [14:48] <krijn> I'd say that's more hell :)
  96. # [14:48] <Sander> I don't know - Maybe my mind is wired weirdly, but I find float layouts far easier to conceptualize and maintain than I ever did for tables.
  97. # [14:49] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  98. # [14:50] <hsivonen> also, some well-intentioned float layout are actually worse than table-based layouts in cases where the ratio of the font size and the viewport width is unexpected to the author
  99. # [14:50] <hsivonen> for example, if you have 800px wide screen and 20px font size on N800
  100. # [14:50] <hsivonen> because float sites tend to fix the size of a sidebar in ems
  101. # [14:51] <hsivonen> and leave the rest to content
  102. # [14:51] <hsivonen> well, sucks to be the user when the content column shrinks close to zero
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  104. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> maybe we can rename the table element to "box"
  105. # [14:56] <MikeSmith> then we could call it the "box model"
  106. # [14:56] <beowulf> i've often wondered why we shun tables for layout when they accurately map to a design grid
  107. # [15:02] <krijn> To help CSS (or standards aware) developers get a job
  108. # [15:04] <MikeSmith> as as far as CSS tables, the argument for not using tables for layout would be a lot more compelling if IE supports CSS tables; but as long as IE doesn't, it's pretty unrealistic to expect that anyone can convince most authors to completely avoid using table markup for layout purposes
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  114. # [15:23] <beowulf> i probably should rephrase what i said there...
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The end :)