/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-24 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Sep 24 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:02] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.83.139) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  4. # [00:09] * Quits: Lachy (chatzilla@124.171.48.142) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
  5. # [00:28] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  6. # [00:29] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  7. # [00:33] * Quits: edas (edaspet@82.233.238.50) (Quit: Quitte)
  8. # [00:46] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Ping timeout)
  9. # [00:49] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  10. # [01:03] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  11. # [01:03] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Connection reset by peer)
  12. # [01:19] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  13. # [01:29] * Joins: Lachy (chatzilla@124.170.9.26)
  14. # [05:26] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Ping timeout)
  15. # [05:27] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  16. # [06:06] * Quits: sbuluf (rnesw@200.49.140.225) (Ping timeout)
  17. # [06:32] * Joins: marcos_ (chatzilla@131.181.148.226)
  18. # [06:32] * marcos_ is now known as marcos
  19. # [06:58] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Ping timeout)
  20. # [07:43] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs_)
  21. # [07:44] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  22. # [08:40] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Broken pipe)
  23. # [08:40] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12)
  24. # [08:49] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152) (Ping timeout)
  25. # [08:51] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152)
  26. # [09:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  27. # [09:24] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152) (Ping timeout)
  28. # [09:24] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152)
  29. # [09:38] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Ping timeout)
  30. # [10:22] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.123.21.205)
  31. # [10:36] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.209.202) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  32. # [10:39] * Joins: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.210.17)
  33. # [10:51] * Joins: schepers (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  34. # [11:16] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  35. # [11:18] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  36. # [11:18] * Quits: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  37. # [11:18] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  38. # [11:36] * Joins: billyjack (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  39. # [11:38] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  40. # [11:40] * billyjack is now known as MikeSmith
  41. #
  42. # Session Start: Mon Sep 24 19:59:59 2007
  43. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  44. # [19:59] * Now talking in #html-wg
  45. # [19:59] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  46. # [19:59] * Set by DanC on Thu Sep 06 23:39:27
  47. # [20:04] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  48. # [20:05] <anne> it's back
  49. # [20:16] * Quits: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230) (Quit: Roger)
  50. # [20:34] * Quits: icaaq (icaaaq@85.228.55.82) (Ping timeout)
  51. # [20:37] * Joins: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230)
  52. # [20:41] * Quits: Roger (roger@213.64.74.230) (Quit: Roger)
  53. # [21:02] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  54. # [21:14] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: does firefox support the predefined roles in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/ ?
  55. # [21:15] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: we expose them, but since they do not match roles used in a11y Apis today, we expose them as role string
  56. # [21:16] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: so it is up to the assistive technology to decide what to do with them
  57. # [21:16] <zcorpan_> ok
  58. # [21:16] <aaronlev> and that work is moving more slowly than widget support etc.
  59. # [21:16] * anne notes that that document has funny conformance criteria on namespaces (point 2)
  60. # [21:17] <zcorpan_> anne: the ua conformance criteria is even funnier
  61. # [21:17] <anne> (besides the fact that it requires an actual xmlns attribute and such which sort of makes DOM usage harder)
  62. # [21:19] <anne> zcorpan_, indeed :)
  63. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> ok, now i want to draft a spec for what we have so far
  64. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> where's the right place to do that
  65. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML somewhere?
  66. # [21:20] <anne> simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
  67. # [21:21] <zcorpan_> that works
  68. # [21:21] <anne> that at least allows pure plain text or normal HTML
  69. # [21:21] <anne> it also implies you're the editor :p
  70. # [21:22] <anne> I think I'll write a blogpost, although my blog might have too much topics on it with impact on accessibility; seems to attract a lot of negativity :(
  71. # [21:29] <hsivonen> perhaps it is better not to attract negativity in this case
  72. # [21:29] <anne> mwaj, we'll see how it goes
  73. # [21:30] <anne> it sort of worked out eventually in the previous post, I think; I quite liked it that some people not active in the WHATWG jumped in as well and shared their opinion
  74. # [21:39] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  75. # [21:43] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  76. # [21:44] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: are there aria roles that don't map to any a11y api? if so, what do you do with them? expose the role string, or also the namespace, or something else?
  77. # [21:51] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: we expose the role string. if it has a prefix and isn't a wairole, we expose the prefix
  78. # [21:52] <aaronlev> the prefix is useless of course
  79. # [21:52] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: but since we don't really support role extensibility (non-wai roles), the fact that we expose something better doesn't matter yet
  80. # [21:52] <zcorpan_> ok. so role="wairole:banner" is the same as role="banner"
  81. # [21:56] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  82. # [22:22] <zcorpan_> http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal
  83. # [22:29] * Quits: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.210.17) (Ping timeout)
  84. # [22:34] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.123.21.205) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  85. # [22:34] <anne> my more rant than outlining proposal: http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/aria
  86. # [22:36] <anne> feedback welcome btw
  87. # [22:40] <Sander> anne: nitpick: "I like how I want so far with this" doesn't parse.
  88. # [22:40] <anne> how about s/want/went/
  89. # [22:40] <anne> ?
  90. # [22:40] <Sander> feels clunky
  91. # [22:41] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  92. # [22:41] <anne> i'll just drop it then
  93. # [22:41] <Sander> I understand what you mean by it though. *tries to find a better way to rephrase*
  94. # [22:41] <anne> dropping it seems fine, thanks
  95. # [22:41] <Sander> ok :)
  96. # [22:43] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  97. # [22:45] <zcorpan_> good thing that all states and properties are all lowercase
  98. # [22:46] <anne> wouldn't matter much unless you had Foo and foo
  99. # [22:46] <anne> which is unlikely
  100. # [22:47] <zcorpan_> it would be ugly to have aria-foo="bar" and aaa:Foo="bar" to represent the Foo state
  101. # [22:48] <anne> you mean to have aaa:Foo represent the foo state :p
  102. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> well, that would also be ugly, but i meant if there was a Foo state. can't have aria-Foo attributes in html. :)
  103. # [22:50] <Hixie> zcorpan_: you're rewriting the role spec to actually say what should happen? :-)
  104. # [22:50] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yes. also the aria specs
  105. # [22:50] <zcorpan_> :)
  106. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> otherwise i can't write any testcases
  107. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> the role module spec has 0 conformance criteria
  108. # [22:51] <zcorpan_> (for UAs)
  109. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> and the aria specs build on top of the role module
  110. # [22:52] <Hixie> zcorpan_: sweet, i look forward to finding out what these attributes have actually been supposed to do
  111. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> stay tuned :)
  112. # [22:53] <anne> bah, Firefox still doesn't imply <body> with <section> or <foobar>
  113. # [22:53] * anne thought it did
  114. # [22:54] <zcorpan_> <foo> and <head><foo> are different
  115. # [22:54] <emeriste> Hello everyone, has there been any discussion about making it easy to put mathematics on websites with simple HTML ?
  116. # [22:54] <zcorpan_> apparently :|
  117. # [22:54] <anne> bah
  118. # [22:54] <anne> emeriste, not since last time ;)
  119. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> emeriste: not sure about simple, but possible at least :)
  120. # [22:55] <emeriste> Oh that is a shame. I hope that maybe people will start to think about that. :)
  121. # [22:55] <emeriste> Oh good zcorpan!
  122. # [22:55] <emeriste> zcorpan - Is it an issue that you are concerned with?
  123. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> not really to be honest
  124. # [22:56] <emeriste> zcorpan -- I can tell you this - Right now it is not simple to put mathematics on a webpage. If you could work out a way to make html do that in the same easy to do way that we can put a <table> on a webpage, then you would really be making the world a better place.
  125. # [22:56] <zcorpan_> search for "mathml html5"
  126. # [22:56] <zcorpan_> and you'll waste a lot of your time ;)
  127. # [22:57] <emeriste> I spent a little time playing with mathml.
  128. # [22:57] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.225)
  129. # [22:57] <zcorpan_> does anyone know if anything happened with mozilla's experiment with mathml in html?
  130. # [22:58] <Hixie> mathml is one of the issues on hte list at http://whatwg.org/issues/
  131. # [22:58] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.31.86.217) (Ping timeout)
  132. # [22:58] <emeriste> Here's my idea: Have simple html tags like <math> . Between <math> you put some kind of syntax used to describe your mathematics (probably mathml code) . Then the browser knows to draw math symbols.
  133. # [22:58] <mjs> emeriste: you've brought this issue up many times now in the past few days
  134. # [22:58] <emeriste> This way it is just as easy to put math on a page as it is to put a table on your page.
  135. # [22:58] <mjs> emeriste: do you have anything new to add?
  136. # [22:58] <anne> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353926 suggests no
  137. # [22:59] <emeriste> mjs -- Just to be fair, it hasn't been the last few days. I wait at least a week each time.
  138. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> anne: ok
  139. # [22:59] <mjs> emeriste: ok, bringing it up every week is not particularly constructive either
  140. # [22:59] <Hixie> emeriste: if you want your idea to be considered, please either mail the htmlwg list (public-html@w3.org) or the whatwg list (whatwg@whatwg.org) or, if you don't want to join the mailing lists, mail me directly (ian@hixie.ch)
  141. # [22:59] <mjs> emeriste: unless you have new information to add
  142. # [22:59] <Hixie> emeriste: ideas suggested on irc go nowhere
  143. # [22:59] <Hixie> emeriste: since we forget :-)
  144. # [22:59] <emeriste> I see, how can we be more constructive. We need to encourage the people with influence (that's you) to do something about this.
  145. # [23:00] <Hixie> emeriste: also, once an idea has been suggested (this idea has already been suggested many times, see http://whatwg.org/issues/) then it goes on the list and it can be years before it is addressed
  146. # [23:00] <emeriste> Okay I will mail it. Thanks for the direction on that.
  147. # [23:00] <Hixie> emeriste: because we have so much to look at
  148. # [23:00] <mjs> adding math support to HTML is already listed as an issue
  149. # [23:00] <emeriste> The fact that it has been suggested many times is indicative of something . . . . .
  150. # [23:00] <Hixie> emeriste: (there are 1000s of e-mails on the list, as you can see, many of which are far more pressing than mathml in html)
  151. # [23:01] <anne> emeriste, I suppose one way to contribute is telling how you'd like to write math and such, prolly taking mathml into account etc.
  152. # [23:02] <emeriste> The Internet is the modern world's equivalent of the printing press. You are the new Gutenburgs. The work you do is profound in its implications in ways that cannot even be predicted or imagined.
  153. # [23:03] <emeriste> I can think of nothing more pressing than to facilitate the transmission of mathematical and scientific ideas.
  154. # [23:03] <mjs> emeriste: one useful way to contribute would be an informed evaluation of whether MathML is good enough for math markup, or if some alternate syntax would be much better
  155. # [23:03] <Hixie> emeriste: then you are probably out of touch with the development of the web :-)
  156. # [23:03] <Hixie> emeriste: e.g. cross-site communication is far more pressing
  157. # [23:04] <Hixie> emeriste: as is the development of offline web applications
  158. # [23:04] <Hixie> emeriste: making html tables more usable to people who don't have graphical displays is also more important
  159. # [23:04] <emeriste> It was probably a mistake that it's been over looked this long.
  160. # [23:04] <mjs> emeriste: you could also ask browsers vendors why they haven't yet implemented MathML, which has been a standard for years, and maybe they can explain why it hasn't risen to the top of the priority list
  161. # [23:04] <emeriste> Okay I'll badger the vendors aggressively.
  162. # [23:05] <Hixie> or you could ask browser vendors who _have_ implemented it (firefox) why nobody uses it
  163. # [23:05] <emeriste> I want to be able to write neat math web pages for my students.
  164. # [23:05] <Hixie> you can use mathml+xhtml today in firefox
  165. # [23:05] <Hixie> and it works great
  166. # [23:05] <emeriste> It's byzantine.
  167. # [23:06] <Hixie> it's maths
  168. # [23:06] <emeriste> It's the xhmtl part that is no good.
  169. # [23:07] <emeriste> mathml is probably okay (I guess I would have chosen LaTeX but I'm not picky).
  170. # [23:07] <Hixie> well then you'll have to wait for html to get math
  171. # [23:07] <Hixie> which might be years
  172. # [23:07] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go shower
  173. # [23:07] <Hixie> later
  174. # [23:07] <emeriste> Why is that so hard to include math into html?
  175. # [23:07] <anne> Jacques Distler on the suggestion that people should not photoblog: "Saying that people shouldn't post photos from their cell phones, or blog from their cell phones or whatever is a paradigmatic example of spitting into the wind. Be my guest, if that's the sort of masochism you're into." :)
  176. # [23:07] <emeriste> Why don't you just take what mathml has done completely and put it in there?
  177. # [23:08] <anne> in the same entry he says that writing MathML is too hard, period
  178. # [23:08] <anne> fwiw
  179. # [23:08] <anne> http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/09/alt#comment-6220
  180. # [23:08] <emeriste> Well MathML is not intended to be coded by hand.
  181. # [23:08] <emeriste> And at least that part I'm okay with.
  182. # [23:08] <anne> "I hate to break it to you, buddy, but that's what the overwhelming majority of people do. Nobody uses MathML, because doing so is too hard. Nearly everyone uses images of their equations (or punts, and posts a PDF file). Telling then that they are wrong, and that they should use MathML instead, is another example of spitting into the wind."
  183. # [23:09] <zcorpan_> neither was html
  184. # [23:09] * Philip kind of likes LaTeX-rendered-to-SVG-embedded-in-HTML, since it has a nice font and is scalable, and also it's better supported and more consistently rendered than MathML
  185. # [23:09] <anne> you want to code it by hand, methinks
  186. # [23:09] <emeriste> The problem with using MathML is that you need to do all kinds of strange things like stylesheets and .xml and mimetypes and namespaces and other things which are needless and confusing, but completely unforgiving.
  187. # [23:10] <emeriste> I would like to code it by hand in simple cases.
  188. # [23:10] <emeriste> but that is not realistic because mathml is baroque.
  189. # [23:11] <emeriste> It is very tedious to code a simple mathematical expression by hand.
  190. # [23:11] <emeriste> Fortunately there are applications which convert LaTeX to MathML.
  191. # [23:11] <mjs> if you think MathML is a bad syntax then you should make an alternate proposal
  192. # [23:12] <mjs> coming in every week and saying the same stuff is not helpful
  193. # [23:12] <mjs> asking other people to invent something instead of making a proposal yourself is also not helpful
  194. # [23:12] <emeriste> I propose an html tag <math> and between <math></math> you put LaTeX-like code.
  195. # [23:12] <Philip> http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/presentational.xhtml is pretty much plain XHTML, with no interesting stylesheets or anything, just with a different doctype and some <math xmlns=...> and with the file renamed to .xhtml, which isn't all that complex
  196. # [23:12] <mjs> don't propose here
  197. # [23:12] <mjs> send it to a mailing list
  198. # [23:12] <emeriste> Philip - You listed a lot of things and some of them are not trivial things.
  199. # [23:13] <anne> fwiw, something like <latex> is unlikely to work as it's designed for formatting for print and not for the web (afaict)
  200. # [23:13] <zcorpan_> Philip: could you make that page not rely on external entities? :)
  201. # [23:13] <hsivonen> anne: cache-consistency with your blog doesn't work transparently in Firefox.
  202. # [23:14] <hsivonen> anne: do you have bad headers or is Firefox being bad?
  203. # [23:14] * Quits: timbl (timbl@128.30.7.41) (Quit: timbl)
  204. # [23:14] <anne> hsivonen, I think you asked me before
  205. # [23:14] <hsivonen> oh.
  206. # [23:14] <hsivonen> I forget
  207. # [23:14] * anne is awaiting support from an HTTP god
  208. # [23:14] <anne> but maybe they all switched to Opera :p
  209. # [23:14] <emeriste> Okay I will look into mailing lists, and I will start to lobby the vendors. Thanks for the advice.
  210. # [23:14] <Philip> zcorpan_: Just because your browser doesn't support them? :-P
  211. # [23:14] <emeriste> I'll come back in 2 weeks to talk to you guys about this again. See you.
  212. # [23:15] <mjs> please don't come back in 2 weeks unless you have something new to add
  213. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> Philip: that and because you're a bozo if my browser doesn't support them ;)
  214. # [23:15] <emeriste> I'll tell you what I heard from the Vendors.
  215. # [23:15] <mjs> why don't you send that to the mailing list, if there is any interesting info?
  216. # [23:16] <anne> entities in XML... hmm
  217. # [23:16] <Philip> zcorpan_: http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/presentational-noent.xhtml ?
  218. # [23:16] <emeriste> I'm sure you guys have influence. If you start to realize how much we want to do this then I'm sure it will happen.
  219. # [23:16] <Philip> Hmm, the obvious problem with LaTeX-to-SVG is that I have a typo in my equation and it'd take far too much effort to correct it since I don't have decent tools to handle it :-(
  220. # [23:17] <anne> it actually renders better in Opera than Firefox because I'm prolly missing some font or something
  221. # [23:17] <zcorpan_> Philip: that's better, but why did you create a new page?
  222. # [23:17] <emeriste> LaTeX to SVG is different than making png's ?
  223. # [23:17] <Philip> (http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/svg.xhtml being the SVG one)
  224. # [23:17] <anne> emeriste, it scales
  225. # [23:17] <emeriste> Oh well that's pretty cool.
  226. # [23:18] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  227. # [23:18] <Philip> zcorpan_: Because the first one ought to work, in theory
  228. # [23:19] <emeriste> Does it also use a transparent background?
  229. # [23:19] <zcorpan_> Philip: only if you know that the consumer loads external entities which is optional in xml
  230. # [23:19] <Philip> emeriste: Yes
  231. # [23:20] <anne> I wonder if we should simply expand the amount of "known" entities in XML...
  232. # [23:20] <emeriste> Hm.. That's really good..
  233. # [23:20] <emeriste> Maybe this is a good solution.
  234. # [23:20] <hsivonen> Philip: theoretical reasoning from XML should lead to a conclusion that only the predefined entities are safe
  235. # [23:21] <zcorpan_> anne: in xml5, yeah
  236. # [23:21] <hsivonen> validator.nu finally shows source for HTML
  237. # [23:21] <hsivonen> links and XML support not done yet
  238. # [23:23] <anne> hsivonen, if it shows the source, it would be nice if it also provides pointers to the errors
  239. # [23:23] <Philip> MathML defines a load of entities, which is kind of pointless if they're not supported, hence I'll pretend that they are supported :-)
  240. # [23:23] <hsivonen> anne: that's "links not done yet" ;-)
  241. # [23:23] <anne> oh
  242. # [23:25] <hsivonen> Philip: XML vocabulary defines stuff that isn't a good match for XML. Film at 11.
  243. # [23:26] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/mathml/mmlextra.ent - Content-Type: chemical/x-pdb - huh?
  244. # [23:27] <hsivonen> Philip: cool! that's a new one ;-)
  245. # [23:27] <Philip> Hmm, looks like MathML2 doesn't actually define &Integral; or &pi; or anything useful like that, unless it's hiding somewhere
  246. # [23:28] <Philip> Oh, whoops, it's hiding in http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/mathml/mmlalias.ent
  247. # [23:28] <Philip> Uh, &Integral; is
  248. # [23:30] <Philip> Ah, &pi; is normal HTML, but for some reason Opera displays the text "ei&pi;+1=0" to me
  249. # [23:31] <anne> probably because it's XML and not HTML...
  250. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> Philip: we don't recognize the FPI, so only the five predefined entities are supported
  251. # [23:32] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@67.154.87.254)
  252. # [23:32] <anne> XML + entities -> bad
  253. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> by extension, doctypes in xml -> bad
  254. # [23:33] <zcorpan_> :)
  255. # [23:33] <anne> in general, XML -> bad
  256. # [23:33] <hsivonen> anne: overton window overflow error
  257. # [23:34] * Philip can't find &pi; defined in XHTML1.1
  258. # [23:37] * Joins: jgraham (jgraham@81.86.210.17)
  259. # [23:38] <Philip> (These DTDs aren't really the easiest things in the world to read)
  260. # [23:38] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Connection reset by peer)
  261. # [23:38] <anne> for some reason validation was important back when XML was designed
  262. # [23:39] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/Math/DTD/mathml2/iso9573-13/isogrk3.ent - aha, there's a &pi;
  263. # [23:40] <Philip> I don't see why web browsers can't just download these three million DTD module files whenever they look at a document and want to parse all the entities
  264. # [23:40] * anne read markp's post again to now realize he's not helping to shift the window to his pov
  265. # [23:45] <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/entity-management/
  266. # [23:45] * hsivonen 6 years ago
  267. # [23:47] <Philip> By the way, is it possible to make the equations in http://philip.html5.org/demos/mathml/svg.xhtml scale with the font size in Firefox?
  268. # [23:47] <hsivonen> Philip: the patch might be on trunk
  269. # [23:47] * hsivonen looks up the bug
  270. # [23:47] <Hixie> 4821
  271. # [23:48] <hsivonen> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305859
  272. # [23:49] <hsivonen> Hixie: MicroB seems to have a zoom that scales images, too.
  273. # [23:50] <Hixie> microb?
  274. # [23:50] <Philip> Hmm, in WebKit the SVG text scales but its container doesn't, so it overlaps the rest of the text
  275. # [23:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: the Maemo port of Gecko that timeless is working on
  276. # [23:51] <hsivonen> Philip: Jacques Distler has a workaround that I used in my thesis
  277. # [23:52] <hsivonen> Philip: if you put an em-sized XHTML element around the SVG element, you can make the XHTML element scale with text and then make <svg> percent relative to parent
  278. # [23:52] <anne> hmm, more <canvas> issues
  279. # [23:52] <Philip> I'll have to look into that if I ever attempt to do something serious with this :-)
  280. # [23:52] <mjs> the SVG text is tragically non-selectable in Safari
  281. # [23:52] <hsivonen> the svg text is not text
  282. # [23:53] <Philip> About rect path-clearing in Firefox: I have a patch to fix that, so maybe they'd accept that for FF3
  283. # [23:53] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  284. # [23:54] <zcorpan_> seems mozilla treats unknown tags as empty elements in head
  285. # [23:54] <mjs> oh, the characters are all paths?
  286. # [23:54] <mjs> that sucks
  287. # [23:54] <hsivonen> mjs: sucks but works visually better than most alternatives
  288. # [23:54] <mjs> anne: perhaps the standard should just be changed to be Firefox-compliant
  289. # [23:55] <anne> could be a oneliner
  290. # [23:55] <anne> "See lxr.mozilla.org for more information. It's all normative."
  291. # [23:55] <anne> maybe two
  292. # [23:55] * jgraham shudders
  293. # [23:56] <anne> "Any license incompatibilities are for your own risk."
  294. # [23:56] <Hixie> wow
  295. # [23:56] <mjs> hsivonen: positioning SVG text won't work well? It would at least give better text quality, assuming availability of an appropriate font
  296. # [23:56] * Hixie feels pain for anne
  297. # [23:57] <Hixie> sure glad i'm no longer working on xmlhttprequest
  298. # [23:57] <Hixie> can't wait for the equivalent e-mail for html5 though!
  299. # [23:57] <Hixie> sheesh
  300. # [23:58] <anne> ah, they e-mailed it to the member list now
  301. # [23:58] * anne got that a month back or so in private
  302. # Session Close: Tue Sep 25 00:00:00 2007

The end :)