/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-27 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Sep 27 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.111.173)
  4. # [00:02] <beowulf> was it mentioned on the html-wg list? i must have missed it
  5. # [00:03] <anne> just on IRC
  6. # [00:03] <anne> i think it was "spotted" because @html4all.org was cc'ed in some e-mail or something
  7. # [00:04] <Philip> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070824#l-227 seems to be the first mention of the wiki, presumably via Referer
  8. # [00:06] <beowulf> so why is html4all trying to remove the editor of... no don't answer that
  9. # [00:11] <Philip> I expect they're not a unified monolithic group with a single set of principles that they all agree on, so it's probably better to wonder why certain people want something rather than why the group does
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  12. # [00:23] <anne> heh, http://www.royal-tunbridge-wells.org/ longdesc= points to a non-existing URL...
  13. # [00:23] <anne> maybe I should e-mail an open letter
  14. # [00:25] <beowulf> i looked at the html of that page a while ago, i think when we were being called lazy and stupid, it didn't inspire me ...
  15. # [00:25] <anne> if you add .org it points to a 404
  16. # [00:25] <Hixie> anne: as a community leader, i have to ask you to not be so derisive
  17. # [00:26] <beowulf> by we i don't mean you, fwiw
  18. # [00:26] <anne> Hixie, this is a serious accessibility breach, you have to understand
  19. # [00:27] * anne will stop now
  20. # [00:27] <Hixie> (i was kidding)
  21. # [00:27] <anne> (too)
  22. # [00:28] <Hixie> i was interested to hear that as editor i'm supposed to be doing leadership work in the html working group, though
  23. # [00:28] <Dashiva> I want to comment, but the joke would be trouble, and explaining why I don't make the joke would be trouble as well, so I might as well not write this line
  24. # [00:28] <Hixie> i wonder how i'm allowed to use this new authority
  25. # [00:28] <Dashiva> You are our secret google overlord, after all
  26. # [00:29] <Philip> anne: "I don't think this should be solved in Selectors [...] as it would require specific knowledge about which attributes contain qnames et cetera" - but there's already selectors for space-separated-list values and language values, which don't need UAs to have any specific knowledge about attributes
  27. # [00:31] <anne> Philip, given foo="x:x" how can I select x in namespace "bar" regardless of what its prefix is?
  28. # [00:31] <anne> afaict there's no such syntax
  29. # [00:32] <anne> maybe I should have mentioned that more explicitly...
  30. # [00:32] <Philip> You solve the problem in Selectors by making new syntax
  31. # [00:32] <anne> that would allow each attribute to take qnames
  32. # [00:32] <anne> ugh
  33. # [00:33] <Hixie> is | allowed on the RHS yet? it's not, is it?
  34. # [00:33] <Philip> You can already select elements that have a specific space-separated word in their alt text
  35. # [00:33] <Hixie> we could have [foo|bar~=xx|yy]
  36. # [00:33] <Hixie> and [foo|bar=xx|yy]
  37. # [00:33] <anne> aah, blasphemy!
  38. # [00:33] <Hixie> (like authors would understand _that_)
  39. # [00:34] <Hixie> "please sir, hit me harder, sir"
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  42. # [00:46] <beowulf> let's not be down on us authors
  43. # [00:46] <beowulf> we get a hard time as it is
  44. # [00:50] <Dashiva> Real authors write their HTML in machine language, and use browser detection to determine which architecture to serve for
  45. # [00:59] <beowulf> you don't realise how sensitive we are, all these hurtful comments about being lazy and stupid ...
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  47. # [01:05] <Philip> The Perl community is nice since laziness is a virtue there
  48. # [01:07] <Philip> ("It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it.")
  49. # [01:07] <Philip> Sadly stupidity is not considered a good thing
  50. # [01:08] <beowulf> *sniff*
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  54. # [01:13] <Philip> http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000429.html - hmm, they deleted the message?
  55. # [01:13] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152)
  56. # [01:13] <anne> I suppose that's because DanC didn't give them permission to forward it and they did so anyway
  57. # [01:14] <anne> not the first time btw: http://html4all.org/pipermail/list_html4all.org/2007-September/000381.html
  58. # [01:14] <anne> (although I'm not sure Rich knows about it)
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  91. # [09:38] <Steve> html4all man here, morning all
  92. # [09:39] <Hixie> hey steve
  93. # [09:39] * Hixie is knee-deep in offline web app edge cases trying to define the cache updating algorithm based on the most recent proposal
  94. # [09:40] <Steve> <Philip> said I expect they're not a unified monolithic group with a single set of principles that they all agree on, so it's probably better to wonder why certain people want something rather than why the group does. philip is spot on here most of the people i hardly know and have widely differing views from
  95. # [09:41] * anne waves
  96. # [09:42] <Steve> but am happy to answer any queries where i can, but would rather observe and talk about relevant issues that i can give some constructive input to
  97. # [09:43] <Hixie> it's been pretty quiet here tonight
  98. # [09:43] <Hixie> i think most people are off doing other things
  99. # [09:43] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out where i should put the offline web apps api
  100. # [09:43] <Hixie> on Window, on Window.navigator, or elsewhere
  101. # [09:44] <Hixie> the onLine attribute is on window.navigator
  102. # [09:44] <Hixie> which is why i'm considering putting the rest there
  103. # [09:44] <Hixie> but it doesn't really feel right
  104. # [09:44] <Steve> hixie: i can be of no help with that one :-(
  105. # [09:44] <Hixie> Steve: no worries
  106. # [09:45] <Hixie> yesterday i was considering introducing a new object window.cache for this stuff
  107. # [09:45] <Hixie> window.cache.add(), window.cache.remove(), window.cache.update(), window.cache.status...
  108. # [09:46] <Hixie> i guess that would be nice and conceptually easy
  109. # [09:46] <Hixie> maybe the events could even fire on that object
  110. # [09:46] <Hixie> hmmm
  111. # [09:48] <anne> navigator isn't that bad, it's after all a UA object
  112. # [09:48] <Hixie> yeah but it's wrong... you're not futzing with the UA
  113. # [09:49] <anne> you sort of are, if you switch to a different UA later it won't have the same offline cache
  114. # [09:49] <anne> s/you/the user/
  115. # [09:49] <Hixie> by that argument, everything should be in window.navigator
  116. # [09:49] <anne> that's sort of convincing to not do it, yes
  117. # [09:50] <anne> :)
  118. # [09:50] <Hixie> i wish JS/DOM had strongly typed enums, sigh
  119. # [09:50] * Hixie defines a new set of constants
  120. # [09:53] <Steve> off topic but something you may be able to help with Ian: i want to do a small scale study of images and their alts, but in the test design i want to get a truly random sample of say 100 urls, any ideas on how to acheive this? or would it be btter to focus on pages from the most popular sites?
  121. # [09:55] <anne> I'm pretty sure Philip would be able to help you with some URIs which are sort of random
  122. # [09:56] <Hixie> i can get you a random sample of 100 urls if you like, but sadly a representative random sample of 100 pages will probably get you about 45 porn pages, 45 spam pages, and 10 pages of dead forums, or something like that
  123. # [09:56] <Hixie> you're probably best doing a crawl seeded at some more reputable site (though i recommend not picking dmoz, just because that's what everyone usually picks, and variety in these studies would be good)
  124. # [09:57] <Hixie> and just picking 100 of the first 100,000 pages you crawl, at random
  125. # [09:57] <Hixie> by following every link
  126. # [09:57] <Hixie> (and avoiding dupes/loops)
  127. # [09:57] <Hixie> Philip has been doing a bunch of work on small scale studies like this, he might be able to give better advice
  128. # [09:59] * anne believes he's using dmoz though
  129. # [09:59] <Steve> cool thanks; i just want to ensure that my sample is not tainted by me unconsciuosly, btw i have looked for other studies of this nature but have not found any, anybody else seen anything?
  130. # [10:00] <anne> lots of informal data gathering
  131. # [10:00] <Steve> what i want to do is classify images (decorative, functional, spacer etc) and then compare their alts (or lack of)
  132. # [10:02] <anne> for instance, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Longdesc_usage documents some usage of longdesc (different from the stats Hixie gave, based on a much smaller sample)
  133. # [10:02] <Steve> anne: have seen that thanks
  134. # [10:03] <Hixie> Steve: of alt attributes in particular?
  135. # [10:04] <anne> there was something similar for <input usemap> but that was just done on #whatwg and not documented anywhere else
  136. # [10:04] <Hixie> i don't know of any research where people have studied alt attributes by hand
  137. # [10:04] <Steve> hixie: yes, perhaps should include title attributes as well
  138. # [10:05] <Hixie> the studies i do myself are all on such large datasets that manual examination only makes sense once you have pruned the data somehow (as we did with longdesc, e.g.)
  139. # [10:05] <Hixie> i think it would be a great thing to look at though
  140. # [10:06] <Steve> i want to get a picture of relative usage patterns for different types of images and how/if the the alt is provided and how useful it is, i know the results are going to be depressing (for me) but..
  141. # [10:07] <Hixie> the results are sadly always depressing when you look at real usage
  142. # [10:07] <Hixie> it's so sad
  143. # [10:07] <Hixie> 93% of pages i looked at in one study (of several billion pages) had at least one major syntax error
  144. # [10:07] <Hixie> that's not even looking at things like duplicate IDs and other errors
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  147. # [10:09] <mjs> Hixie: window.application?
  148. # [10:09] <mjs> or is that better reserved for something else
  149. # [10:09] <mjs> (re your earlier point of wonderment)
  150. # [10:11] <Hixie> probably better kept for something bigger
  151. # [10:11] <Hixie> though who knows
  152. # [10:11] <Hixie> i'm wondering where the events should go, too
  153. # [10:12] <Hixie> we already are planning on having window.ononline, should we have window.onupdating, or window.cache.onupdating?
  154. # [10:12] <Hixie> or should we only use addEventListener
  155. # [10:12] <Hixie> aah, so many decisions
  156. # [10:13] <anne> move them to .cache I'd say
  157. # [10:13] <anne> window is already _so_ overloaded
  158. # [10:14] <anne> (maybe so badly it can't hurt, but still)
  159. # [10:14] <anne> people can type cache.onupdating which isn't that bad either
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  163. # [10:38] <anne> Hixie, what happens btw if someone has var cache = foo in his code, that simply overwrites it?
  164. # [10:38] <mjs> anne: new Window properties in general need to be replaceable to avoid compat issues
  165. # [10:39] <anne> can you find out from the IDL whether a property is replaceable in ES?
  166. # [10:40] <mjs> I don't know if you can in the flavor of IDL that HTML5 uses, but I believe Bindings For DOM will cover this
  167. # [10:40] <Hixie> yeah
  168. # [10:40] <anne> k, cool
  169. # [10:40] <Hixie> it's on heycam's list, at least
  170. # [10:40] <Hixie> i put it there :-)
  171. # [10:41] <Hixie> offtopic, but:
  172. # [10:41] * Hixie is amused by http://searchengineland.com/070927-000001.php
  173. # [10:41] <Hixie> search for the paragraph starting "The improved ranking algorithms"
  174. # [10:41] <Hixie> and do the sample query on google and the new msn live search
  175. # [10:42] <Hixie> neither really answer the question asked, but it's hard to say that msn live search's results are more relevant than google's...
  176. # [10:44] <mjs> indeed - poorly chosen example
  177. # [10:45] <anne> for that example I get his site back on google btw :)
  178. # [10:45] <mjs> ditto
  179. # [10:46] <anne> but neither gives "useful" results
  180. # [10:46] <mjs> but on live search, you get porn, a radio station, and some band links
  181. # [10:46] <Hixie> yeah i love that google is so fresh that we can serve back that site even though it was only posted a few hours ago
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  183. # [10:47] <Hixie> but yeah, the live search results do seem pretty much not at all relevant, whereas at least the google ones are about arizona, or the weather, or about the query itself
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  185. # [10:53] <mjs> looks like the kind of quality effort you would expect from the company that brought you Zune and Vista
  186. # [10:56] <Hixie> well in all fairness their update does seem like a major step forward
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  190. # [11:06] <zcorpan_> hmm, i kinda like matthew's proposal. it doesn't help with roles in other vocabs, but that might not really matter
  191. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> it also means we don't have to step on the toes of the xhtml role module
  192. # [11:07] <anne> what about all the existing role= usage?
  193. # [11:07] <zcorpan_> that would require the wairole: prefix
  194. # [11:07] <anne> well, "all"
  195. # [11:08] <anne> oh, you want both now? ouch
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  197. # [11:08] <zcorpan_> well, i don't think firefox wants to drop support for role="wairole:foo"
  198. # [11:08] <zcorpan_> that's not to say we'll implement it in opera
  199. # [11:09] <zcorpan_> i dunno. having another attribute might make it more messy
  200. # [11:10] <anne> what would the solution for SVG be?
  201. # [11:10] <anne> introduce aria-role there too? :)
  202. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> no, use the "namespaced" role="wairole:foo"
  203. # [11:10] <zcorpan_> er
  204. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> html:role=..
  205. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> even
  206. # [11:11] <zcorpan_> hmm, it seems messy
  207. # [11:12] <anne> that's ugly
  208. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> yeah
  209. # [11:13] <anne> you'd want html:aria-role there then or something
  210. # [11:13] <anne> or simply aria-role
  211. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> yeah, html:aria-role might work
  212. # [11:13] <anne> hijacking role= seems like a more straightforward solution
  213. # [11:13] <zcorpan_> agree
  214. # [11:14] <anne> (if you actually want people to use it you should just introduce the attribute in no namespace on SVG)
  215. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> that's up to the svg wg
  216. # [11:14] <anne> although maybe they're used to it with the ugly xlink stuff
  217. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> yeah
  218. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> they might even like that it is namespaced :)
  219. # [11:14] <zcorpan_> ooh, namespaces! more!
  220. # [11:15] <anne> soon you'll get <a:b c:d="e:f=g:h">
  221. # [11:17] <anne> and authors will rejoice
  222. # [11:19] <zcorpan_> ha
  223. # [11:21] <anne> <a:b c:d="e:f='g:h'"> of course, unquoted inner attribute values are bad practice
  224. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> not well-formed! well-formedness is an xml feature.
  225. # [11:23] <anne> like qnames in content?
  226. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> yes :)
  227. # [11:42] <Dashiva> <a:b=c:d=apple>
  228. # [12:27] * anne summons MarkB
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  231. # [13:23] <Philip> Steve: I did http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/imgs.xhtml a while ago, extracting all the <img>s from some (32?) random pages from dmoz.org
  232. # [13:25] <Steve> philip: great thanks will have a look at it
  233. # [13:27] <Steve> philip: do you have a list of the pages?
  234. # [13:28] <Philip> Of just those 32, or of all of dmoz.org?
  235. # [13:28] <Steve> just the 32 that you used for the sample, i need to see the images in context
  236. # [13:29] <Philip> The images on that page link to the page they came from
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  238. # [13:31] <anne> that's pretty terrible
  239. # [13:32] <Philip> http://tinyurl.com/2tqcyr is the pages
  240. # [13:33] <Philip> and seven others had no <img>s
  241. # [13:35] <Philip> (No images: http://members.aol.com/AdbastonWI/ http://www.laktrans.pl/ http://web.mit.edu/mitbac/www/ http://monikapyrek.pl/ http://www.kurashiki-oky.ed.jp/school/midori-e/ http://democracy.stanford.edu/ http://amalgamatedservices.com/ )
  242. # [13:42] <Steve> Ok thanks
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  244. # [13:56] <Sander> yay, looks like I'm all caught up with the mailinglist again. *accidentally hit "mark all as read"* :/
  245. # [14:05] <krijnh> That works well :)
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  248. # [14:21] <zcorpan_> karl: re http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/09/setting-default-style-sheet.html , that is a non-issue, because all browsers are forced to treat style="" as css
  249. # [14:22] <zcorpan_> karl: saying that authors should add content-style-language to declare text/css is just wasting their time (even though html4 says it's required)
  250. # [14:22] <karl> zcorpan_: read the article I say so
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  253. # [14:23] <zcorpan_> karl: right, so why do you suggest that authors should add the declaration?
  254. # [14:23] * tH_ is now known as tH
  255. # [14:23] <karl> because it is still a requirement for now. HTML 5 is far to be a spec *yet*.
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  261. # [15:12] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: what are your thoughts about aria-role?
  262. # [15:14] * anne just replied
  263. # [15:24] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: basicaly, not backwards compatible
  264. # [15:24] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: will break dojo a11y
  265. # [15:24] <aaronlev> i understand why people would like that for consistency
  266. # [15:25] <anne> i think we should just fork role= and be done with it
  267. # [15:25] <aaronlev> i didn't read his whole mail, he wants to keep both role and have aria-role?
  268. # [15:26] <anne> implement the simple solution, have people bitch about theoretical purity until they realize that reality is different...
  269. # [15:26] <anne> aaronlev, yeah, afaict
  270. # [15:27] <aaronlev> anne: he says replace role with aria-role
  271. # [15:28] <anne> well yes, but he also argues: "3) People who use |role| aren't confused by the lack of a namespace for ARIA roles and have a clear understanding that the roles are ARIA-related."
  272. # [15:28] <aaronlev> chris wilson wanted aria-role as well
  273. # [15:29] <anne> advantage being?
  274. # [15:29] <anne> if we do aria-role, i'd like for Opera and other browsers to not implement role= at all...
  275. # [15:29] <anne> and also have html:aria-role
  276. # [15:29] <anne> and just keep it simple, with a single value, etc.
  277. # [15:31] <aaronlev> advantage is consistency for html authors
  278. # [15:32] <aaronlev> but i'm not for it right now, mainly because of dojo+ff2 i guess
  279. # [15:32] <anne> i suppose, though it's a matter of perspective
  280. # [15:32] <anne> role= indicates the widget where aria-* indicates the state
  281. # [15:32] <anne> there's some consistency in that too
  282. # [15:32] <anne> it just means forking role=...
  283. # [15:37] <aaronlev> anne: it won't kill me either way but it will be a pain for the dojo folks who are the main user of ARIA right now
  284. # [15:38] <anne> pain with distributing the new code or updating existing code?
  285. # [15:39] <anne> seems like updating won't be that hard as the code becomes simpler and it's only a few strings here and there...
  286. # [15:39] <aaronlev> well w/o backwards compat they have to choose ff2 or ff3
  287. # [15:39] <aaronlev> if we move from |role| to |aria-role| in ff3
  288. # [15:39] <aaronlev> or they have to user agent sniff before setting the attribute
  289. # [15:40] <zcorpan_> yeah, with fx2 compat in mind, i don't like aria-role
  290. # [15:41] <anne> seems like a good motivator for people to upgrade :)
  291. # [15:43] <aaronlev> anne: well dojo is coming out before ff3
  292. # [15:43] <aaronlev> i'm told that they must have a11y for ff2, i tried to argue just for targetting ff3
  293. # [15:43] <aaronlev> it does seem like a silly reason
  294. # [15:46] <Philip> They could set both role="foo" and aria-role="foo" to be compatible with both versions
  295. # [15:46] <anne> good point
  296. # [15:46] <anne> it's indeed not one or the other
  297. # [15:47] <anne> (as far as authoring is concerned, I hope it is for UAs!)
  298. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> in the proposal, role="wairole:foo" will work in both
  299. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> (fwiw)
  300. # [15:50] <aaronlev> Philip: yeah they could, true
  301. # [15:51] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: yes, so as for now they only have to set role
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  303. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> indeed
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  308. # [16:41] <hsivonen> what good would aria-role do? compared to role?
  309. # [16:41] <hsivonen> now at least the aria-* naming schema is the minimal change to ARIA as opposed to second-guessing the names some more
  310. # [16:46] <anne> it would not conflict with the xhtml2 wg or any other ideas people might about role
  311. # [16:46] <anne> i suppose it also makes it a little bit more clear it's for accessibility, but apart from that, dunno
  312. # [16:51] <hsivonen> anne: I thought namespaces were supposed to solve any conflicts between XHTML2 and anything else. :-)
  313. # [16:52] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the xhtml2 *wg*; the xhtml role attribute module is their spec
  314. # [16:54] <anne> i'm fine with either forking role= or creating aria-role but I rather not have both
  315. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> agree
  316. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> i don't have an opinion about which one
  317. # [16:54] <hsivonen> yeah.
  318. # [16:54] <hsivonen> intuitively, I'd go with role=.
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  323. # [17:34] <beowulf> i've just had a discussion were a certain company wouldn't allow background-images in the css because you can't add alt tags, and all images should have alt tags; is this sane?
  324. # [17:35] <hsivonen> beowulf: what were the images like?
  325. # [17:35] <Philip> Maybe you could argue that background-images in CSS have an implicit empty alt="", so it's fine to use them iff <img src=... alt=""> would be acceptable for that image
  326. # [17:35] <beowulf> hsivonen: eye candy
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  329. # [17:36] <beowulf> lifestyle images
  330. # [17:36] <beowulf> if you like
  331. # [17:36] <beowulf> but this was a black and white policy, images must have alt tags, therefore no images in css
  332. # [17:37] <hsivonen> beowulf: does lifestyle mean alt='group of smiling multiethnic people equally gender-divided doing sports' ?
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  334. # [17:37] <beowulf> hsivonen: yes
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  344. # [18:26] <aaronlev> hsivonen: lol
  345. # [18:27] <aaronlev> beowulf: tell them that background images are fine for images that are not interactive and are only for looks, adding no meaning
  346. # [18:27] <aaronlev> becuase the purpose is to make things better for blind users, and sometimes adding more alt text is just redundant clutter
  347. # [18:33] <Philip> That's far harder to explain than "images must have an alt attribute" :-(
  348. # [18:34] <billmason> "image tags must have an alt attribute". The explanation works fine paired with that.
  349. # [18:35] <Philip> What about CSS background image tags?
  350. # [18:35] <billmason> That's not a "tag".
  351. # [18:35] <Philip> That makes it harder to explain :-)
  352. # [18:36] <zcorpan_> "foreground images", "content images", "non-decorative images", ...?
  353. # [18:36] <billmason> Fine, 'HTML image tags must have an alt attribute.' You know, if the target audience is stuck on that concept, they shouldn't be trying to mandate anything from the code author. :)
  354. # [18:37] <zcorpan_> people who mandate things often don't have a clue :)
  355. # [18:37] <billmason> funny how that happens
  356. # [18:39] <Philip> It seems better if they can mandate some guidelines / checking tools which were written by people who do have a clue
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  358. # [18:39] <Philip> so there's less chance for the mandaters to mess it all up
  359. # [18:39] <Philip> s/it all up/up all the details/
  360. # [18:42] <zcorpan_> Philip: where's the ` ? :)
  361. # [18:44] <Philip> zcorpan_: This network is small enough that nobody else has taken the non-suffixed name :-)
  362. # [18:45] <zcorpan_> Philip: ok :)
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  372. # [20:44] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: what do you think about al's suggestion to use the first "aria" token, if any, instead of just the first token?
  373. # [20:45] <aaronlev> i didn't read it
  374. # [20:45] <aaronlev> sometimes i need to concentrate pretty hard to understand his emails
  375. # [20:45] <zcorpan_> yeah, it was a bit confusing
  376. # [20:47] <aaronlev> i give al a hard time
  377. # [20:47] <aaronlev> he uses some odd terminology
  378. # [20:47] <aaronlev> on our phone calls i need other people to translate his text into plain speak
  379. # [20:48] <aaronlev> i think he used the phrase "self-nucleating snowball" recently
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  390. # [21:54] <anne> seems that Al doesn't understand how the DOM works...
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  392. # [22:14] <anne> hmm, we need <noflash> :)
  393. # [22:14] <anne> http://www.joshuabudich.com/SWCollection/
  394. # [22:14] <anne> people start using <noscript> for it, can't be good
  395. # [22:15] <kingryan> why not just object fallback?
  396. # [22:15] * anne was joking
  397. # [22:15] <anne> it's sad though that flash support is assumed
  398. # [22:15] <kingryan> <noobject> ?
  399. # [22:16] <anne> <i> <object>
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The end :)