/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-09-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Sep 28 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  25. # [02:42] <DougJ> I have not been able to follow the html-wg for some time. I have been reviewing the Maciej 'Proposal for Keyboard Shortcuts' and the Aaron 'ARIA in HTML threads.' Please comment on my take - <command> shortcuts would be used on 'plain' HTML pages, ie. the author does not use Javascript and ARIA would require the use of Javascript. Does ARIA provide any more functionality?
  26. # [02:43] <mjs> ARIA is not a mechanism for keyboard shortcuts
  27. # [02:43] <mjs> the two are orthogonal
  28. # [02:43] <mjs> some people think certain roles should be assigned a default keyboard shortcut
  29. # [02:44] <mjs> but I don't think there are any existing ARIA roles that would correspond to the semantics of a specific command
  30. # [02:44] <aaronlev> yeah you have to implement key nav with script
  31. # [02:45] <aaronlev> that makes it possible to have it be key navigable with IE as well anyway, which doesn't have ARIA support
  32. # [02:45] <aaronlev> and on Opera which is just starting to have ARIA support
  33. # [02:45] <aaronlev> hi mjs
  34. # [02:46] <aaronlev> i guess the 2 are complimentary, for good web 2.0 accesssibility you need both key nav and aria
  35. # [02:46] <mjs> I'm not sure what you mean by "implement key nav with script"
  36. # [02:47] <mjs> my proposal is for keyboard shortcuts for commands (like things you would find in the menu bar for a native app), not for keyboard navigation of controls (like with tab / shift-tab)
  37. # [02:48] <mjs> I don't see how ARIA is at all related to this
  38. # [02:48] <aaronlev> right, sorry, i'm talking about complex container controls
  39. # [02:48] <mjs> there are no ARIA roles for "Bold" or "Reply" or "New Document"
  40. # [02:48] <aaronlev> ARIA talks about using tabindex to enable complex navigation as found in tree controls and grids etc.
  41. # [02:48] <aaronlev> you might want to be able to arrow through those menus as well
  42. # [02:48] <DougJ> http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ#What_is_ARIA_and_how_does_it_allow_for_accessible_JavaScript_widgets.3F section What is ARIA and how does it allow for accessible JavaScript widgets? speaks of keyboard navigation. But this is different, evidently, than the extent Maciej envisions shortcuts to reach.
  43. # [02:49] <aaronlev> DougJ: if you want to know what aria is read http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications/Relationship_to_HTML_FAQ
  44. # [02:49] <mjs> I'm talking about special key combinations for specific commands
  45. # [02:49] <mjs> like when you hit Control-S in Microsoft Word on Windows and it saves the document
  46. # [02:49] <mjs> that's a keyboard shortcut
  47. # [02:49] <mjs> hitting tab to go to the next field is keyboard navigation
  48. # [02:49] <aaronlev> you're right
  49. # [02:50] <aaronlev> jus tired,
  50. # [02:50] <aaronlev> i saw the word keyboard
  51. # [02:50] <DougJ> I quoted from the FAQ.
  52. # [02:50] <aaronlev> DougJ: i see
  53. # [02:50] <mjs> aaronlev: I'm not trying to pick on you, I just want to clarify for DougJ
  54. # [02:50] <aaronlev> np
  55. # [02:51] <DougJ> Thanks for the clarification - I was tending toward that.
  56. # [02:51] <aaronlev> yes right now if you want keyboard shortcuts you have to hack it with an onkeydown listener on <body> or something
  57. # [02:51] <aaronlev> onkeypress doesn't work the same in IE as others, so onkeydown works better i've found
  58. # [02:52] <aaronlev> IE doesn't fire onkeypress for everything you'd think it should
  59. # [02:52] <mjs> key events are an area where interoperability is lacking
  60. # [02:52] <mjs> and sadly the relevant DOM specs do not cover them at all
  61. # [02:53] <mjs> browsers also differ on whether you are allowed to see the key events for key combinations that are built-in browser shortcuts, and whether you can prevent the default action on them
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  63. # [02:54] <aaronlev> i had to do a ton of work on all aspects of keyboard stuff in mozilla
  64. # [02:54] <aaronlev> it was a real pain
  65. # [02:54] <aaronlev> i inherited a mess and tried to clean it up some, but it's still nasty
  66. # [02:55] <aaronlev> there are so many details to it
  67. # [02:55] <mjs> indeed
  68. # [02:55] <aaronlev> and no one ever wants to work on it
  69. # [02:57] <mjs> we have someone who likes fixing keyboard stuff
  70. # [02:58] <mjs> but the lack of consistency between browsers and lack of formal spec make it painful
  71. # [02:58] <aaronlev> yes
  72. # [03:00] <DougJ> Observing the HTML5 communications at least showed me that my troubles in understanding some HTML4 weren't just me. And I appreciate more the UA developer's. And I also wonder how some of this 'basic' stuff was left alone in specifications? Oh, well, water over the ...
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  99. # [06:59] * karl wonders who is Matthew Raymond.
  100. # [07:03] <Hixie> how do you mean?
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  103. # [07:15] <karl> this is a name identifying a person sending messages to the list. But that doesn't say what this person is doing related to this technology for hobbies, pro activities, etc. outside of the html wg life
  104. # [07:48] <Hixie> ah i see
  105. # [07:48] * Hixie has no idea
  106. # [07:49] <Hixie> he's been a contributor for a long time, though, and many of his ideas have strongly influenced wf2's development
  107. # [07:51] <karl> yes it is why I would like to know what he is doing. To have strong opinions like this, he must be using the technology in a product or something or developing himself.
  108. # [07:51] <karl> This could be interesting to know what products, if any
  109. # [07:51] <Hixie> i had strong opinions long before i had any reason to :-)
  110. # [07:52] <karl> The name could be a mask to hide a company.
  111. # [07:53] <karl> We all have strong opinions. And we often make fool of ourselves in public. Internet Information space is 2d (very binary), when human information space is indy (bad play of words.)
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  133. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> hmm, perhaps i need a reference to the DOM in my proposal
  134. # [11:23] <zcorpan_> just like html5 says "...because this spec is defined in terms of the DOM"
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  136. # [13:05] <zcorpan_> mjs: s/popular/common/ re http://www.w3.org/mid/71213541-E533-420B-85FD-4322DE48075B@apple.com ;)
  137. # [13:05] <mjs> zcorpan_: heh
  138. # [13:14] <hsivonen> what kind of stakeholder role is Mike Wilson in?
  139. # [13:17] <anne> I think he's a developer
  140. # [13:18] <hsivonen> anne: Web developer or IE developer?
  141. # [13:18] <anne> not sure
  142. # [13:19] <anne> it's not very nice from MS to come with this I think as they haven't really contributed to any discussion and haven't acknowledged all the steps we made in the direction of their implementation
  143. # [13:19] <anne> mostly if there was a difference the IE way was picked, even when it was quite insane
  144. # [13:22] <mjs> it seems pretty late to object but I guess they haven't been following closely
  145. # [13:22] <mjs> to object in such a fundamental way I mean
  146. # [13:23] <mjs> but I also think "please make the spec toothless" is not a valid request in any case
  147. # [13:24] <hsivonen> it would certainly be nice if they said what's incompatible and how to change the spec to make it compatible
  148. # [13:25] <mjs> they said they don't have the resources to do extensive testing, and that they are unwilling to make any changes at all to their existing code
  149. # [13:26] <mjs> both of those seem like they would conflict with the idea of documenting the issues in detail
  150. # [13:26] <anne> the vision document is quite funny
  151. # [13:26] <mjs> I'm not sure they have real compatibility issues in mind, they just say any change might be a compat issue
  152. # [13:26] <anne> it talks about HTML parsers being expensive for mobile devices
  153. # [13:27] <anne> where a parser is one of the least significant things in a browser in terms of being expensive
  154. # [13:27] <mjs> as if parsing was the hard part
  155. # [13:27] <mjs> also, it's not like HTML parsing is more expensive than XML parsing
  156. # [13:27] <anne> (besides the fact that XML might be more complicated even, with all the DTD crazyness)
  157. # [13:27] <mjs> in either code size or runtime
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  162. # [15:20] <beowulf> which vision document is this?
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  164. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> hi aaronlev
  165. # [15:23] <aaronlev> hi zcorpan_
  166. # [15:23] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: have you had time to try to grasp al's emails? :)
  167. # [15:24] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: is it worth it?
  168. # [15:24] <aaronlev> what's the core issue?
  169. # [15:24] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: only one thing: the proposal says to look at the first token (regardless of what it is), they want to look at the first aria token, if any
  170. # [15:25] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: consider role="blah checkbox" vs role="checkbox blah"
  171. # [15:26] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: in firefox, do you pick up "checkbox" in the former?
  172. # [15:26] <aaronlev> no, we just look at the first
  173. # [15:26] <aaronlev> but also, we expose an object attribute called xml-roles
  174. # [15:27] <aaronlev> which is just the role attribute exactly reproduced char for char
  175. # [15:27] <aaronlev> i realize that doesn't help much though
  176. # [15:27] <aaronlev> i'm sure we could do better with multiple roles, but no one is doing that yet
  177. # [15:28] <aaronlev> in fact no one is really using roles as landmarks at all, even the obvious ones like main and navigation
  178. # [15:29] <aaronlev> i guess, we have worse issues that i see as more important -- like harmonizing tree grid across platforms, handling the owns property better, caching relations (which i guess opera already does), and a few other things
  179. # [15:31] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: but if you decide it's worth putting into the proposal, i should be able to do it for ff3
  180. # [15:32] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: ok. i don't really have an opinion. could you reply to http://www.w3.org/mid/p06110409c321afd45d23@%5B192.168.1.100%5D (where it says "let's check with aaron")?
  181. # [15:33] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: on the one hand i'd like to address al's concern, but on the other hand it's a minor issue and i'd rather try to spec down the remaining big issues first
  182. # [15:34] <zcorpan_> it just requires authors who wish to use multiple roles to put the aria role first
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  184. # [15:39] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: i'm wrong, we only allow one role in ff2
  185. # [15:39] <aaronlev> i'll reply
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  188. # [15:44] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: i changed the draft to expose the entire value in "xml-roles" (it said to only expose the role identifier it found for the mapping purposes)
  189. # [15:48] <aaronlev> ah, so are you going to start putting a11y API details in there?
  190. # [15:48] <aaronlev> i think it's a good idea to do that, but, not all a11y apis are the same
  191. # [15:48] <zcorpan_> yeah, probably
  192. # [15:48] <aaronlev> there are tradeoffs
  193. # [15:48] <aaronlev> in the past w3c splits that off into a techniques doc which just leads to a too-abstract spec imo
  194. # [15:48] <aaronlev> on the other hand web authors might be confused
  195. # [15:49] <aaronlev> and there are differences between atk/at-spi, Iaccessible2, Universal Access, UI Automation, etc.
  196. # [15:49] <aaronlev> but i'm glad to help
  197. # [15:49] <hsivonen> aaronlev: what's the last API for?
  198. # [15:50] <aaronlev> hsivonen: it is microsoft's new API for vista
  199. # [15:50] <aaronlev> what happened is they gave up on msaa
  200. # [15:50] <aaronlev> which was a problem, because people had lots of msaa code in apps and assistive tech
  201. # [15:50] <aaronlev> and UIA was just an API for managed code
  202. # [15:50] <zcorpan_> yeah, i'm not sure how to spec it in a sane way. in order to test it you probably need an accessibility api debugger...
  203. # [15:51] <hsivonen> oh. I wasn't up to speed on MS doing something other than MSAA
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  205. # [15:51] <aaronlev> so IBM worked with the community to build IAccessible2, which are API extensions to MSAA and matches closely with ATK/AT-SPI on Linux
  206. # [15:51] <aaronlev> I was part of that effort
  207. # [15:51] <aaronlev> it's what we're using in FIrefox now
  208. # [15:51] <aaronlev> because it can build on msaa support and yet is very similar to ATK, you can leverage a lot of existing code and get cross platform a11y
  209. # [15:52] <aaronlev> the AT vendors had a lot less work to implement support for it, because they get to build on top of exisiting support for MSAA
  210. # [15:52] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA_to_API_mapping
  211. # [15:52] <hsivonen> aaronlev: is Universal Access a good match?
  212. # [15:53] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: the proposal references that :)
  213. # [15:53] <aaronlev> hsivonen: universal access is cool because it just name value pairs. It's loosely spec'd which honestly is an advantage in this space, because you don't have to rev a whole lot of binary software in lock step to get new features in
  214. # [15:53] <aaronlev> you can just expose some new a11y property
  215. # [15:53] <aaronlev> and then ask ATs to support
  216. # [15:53] <aaronlev> that
  217. # [15:54] <aaronlev> But with binary APIs, adding new features is a total nightmare
  218. # [15:54] <aaronlev> hsivonen: and the values in the name value pairs don't have to be strings, it can be a hash table for example
  219. # [15:54] <aaronlev> so you can send any event data you want, for example, it's great
  220. # [15:55] <aaronlev> the big disadvantage is that there is really only one (closed) screen reader supporting it, which is owned by the platform vendors
  221. # [15:55] <aaronlev> so it is harder to influence them if you need new features, like accessible live regions or drag and drop, or whatever
  222. # [15:55] <aaronlev> but, to answer your question, the name/value pairs Apple is using most likely fit well enough, but we only have stub support for UA in Mozilla so I can't say what the major integration issues will be yet
  223. # [15:55] <hsivonen> aaronlev: OK, so one needs to know the magic keys supported by VoiceOver instead of merely writing to a particular set of function calls
  224. # [15:56] <aaronlev> hsivonen: right, and you can find out by looking at other apps
  225. # [15:56] <aaronlev> that apple has written, or looking at their docs
  226. # [15:56] <aaronlev> but docs are always wrong or out of date for anything like this
  227. # [15:56] <aaronlev> never gets all the details
  228. # [15:56] <hsivonen> ok
  229. # [15:57] * hsivonen bloated the http://validator.nu/ UI with a new checkbox
  230. # [15:57] <aaronlev> my big concern with spending a lot of resources on UA support in Mozilla is, how will we get Apple to change Voice Over when we need it, when obviously Safari is more important to them. I see a conflict of interest, but they aren't interested in open sourcing it
  231. # [15:57] <aaronlev> So we might let Opera take the lead on that one :)
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  233. # [15:58] <hsivonen> aaronlev: is hwaara actively working on it, though?
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  236. # [15:58] <aaronlev> hsivonen: hwaara needed a real job instead of grants
  237. # [15:59] <aaronlev> so he has stopped working on it
  238. # [15:59] <aaronlev> we have a good start, though
  239. # [15:59] <hsivonen> ok. :-(
  240. # [15:59] <aaronlev> hsivonen: i think it's ok, one step at a time
  241. # [15:59] <aaronlev> we're doing a ton
  242. # [16:00] <aaronlev> but to be honest, if i had resources i'd consider putting them into ARIA support in WebKit first, because then we can influence Voice Over first
  243. # [16:00] <aaronlev> once everything works well there, we'll know exactly what support in Mozilla should look like
  244. # [16:00] <aaronlev> since my goal is a11y for the whole web
  245. # [16:12] * Quits: myakura (myakura@122.21.255.8) (Quit: Leaving...)
  246. # [16:15] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: with http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessifyforum.com%2F&showsource=yes nothing is highlighted for the checkbox error
  247. # [16:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: hmm. I had forgotten about that case. thanks
  248. # [16:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that's because the error is associated with a line
  249. # [16:16] <hsivonen> (as opposed to a character or a character range)
  250. # [16:17] * hsivonen looks at the title attribute issue now
  251. # [16:17] <hsivonen> title.attrs =
  252. # [16:17] <hsivonen> ( empty )
  253. # [16:17] <hsivonen> whoa
  254. # [16:20] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: fix for the common attrs on <title> issue deployed. thanks.
  255. # [16:20] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: welcome :)
  256. # [16:21] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the reasons for lacking text field and file upload are three-fold:
  257. # [16:22] <hsivonen> 1) lack of UI design that works nicely without JS, with AT and doesn't bloat the default view
  258. # [16:23] <hsivonen> 2) handling file uploads doesn't come for free with servlets. instead I have to do so disruptive integration of a third-party library
  259. # [16:23] <hsivonen> 3) Should I force the user to pick the parser manually, when Content-Type is unavailable (text field) or unreliable (upload)?
  260. # [16:23] * Joins: myakura (myakura@122.21.255.8)
  261. # [16:24] <hsivonen> oh, and #1 should be theoretically relatively pure, too, since it is easy to ridicule a validator that isn't theoretically pure
  262. # [16:25] <zcorpan_> 3) yes, although you could perhaps make a guess for upload and issue a warning if the user didn't choose
  263. # [16:25] <zcorpan_> based on e.g. file extension
  264. # [16:26] <zcorpan_> 2) ok, personally i think textarea is more useful than upload, so i would be happy with textarea but no upload :)
  265. # [16:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok, for now, you can work around the lack of textarea using Lachy's front-end
  266. # [16:27] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yep
  267. # [16:28] <zcorpan_> 1) i can perhaps come with some ideas or a mockup later
  268. # [16:29] <hsivonen> cool
  269. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> i guess the js would have to be cluttered with two additional checkboxes in the default view when js is enabled
  270. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> (or buttons or whatever)
  271. # [16:29] <zcorpan_> s/js/ui/
  272. # [16:30] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  273. # [16:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: the W3C Validator uses a tabbed UI, but they got AT compat complaints lately about the particular impl
  274. # [16:30] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ok
  275. # [16:32] <Lachy> one day, I'll clean up those tools of mine to be more useful for testing hsivonen's validator.
  276. # [16:32] <Lachy> zcorpan_, let me know if there are any changes I could make to it to improve it for you
  277. # [16:34] <zcorpan_> Lachy: i've used your upload tool as input for validator.nu (not html5.validator.nu) when i wanted to change preset or something
  278. # [16:35] <Lachy> maybe I could add a function to do that in one step for you, so it generates the page and redirects you to the validator with it immediately
  279. # [16:36] <zcorpan_> yeah, that would be cool
  280. # [16:36] <Lachy> I'll see if I can do it tomorrow
  281. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> ok
  282. # [16:37] <Lachy> I'm too exhaused to think about it now, I just got back from web directions
  283. # [16:37] <zcorpan_> no worries :)
  284. # [16:38] <hsivonen> I wonder when I would have been better off writing my own XML parser
  285. # [16:39] * hsivonen starts patching the XML parser to work together with Show Source
  286. # [16:41] <hsivonen> oh, I need to get column counting right with the BOM.
  287. # [16:41] <hsivonen> no fun
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  290. # [17:04] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  291. # [17:04] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: i think i'm gonna go ahead and change the spec to use the first aria role
  292. # [17:04] <zcorpan_> aaronlev: unless it's a problem to change it in firefox
  293. # [17:07] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: not a problem do pick out the aria role either
  294. # [17:07] <aaronlev> first aria role
  295. # [17:07] <aaronlev> whatever you decide
  296. # [17:07] <aaronlev> first role is obviously easiest
  297. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> yeah. first token that doesn't have a colon or has a colon but starts with "wairole:"
  298. # [17:10] <zcorpan_> i think
  299. # [17:16] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: don't forget the xhtml role module roles have no prefix
  300. # [17:16] <aaronlev> so that rule wouldn't work for role="navigation menu"
  301. # [17:20] <zcorpan_> yeah, true. perhaps i instead need a table of all aria roles
  302. # [17:21] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: i have an array of wai-aria roles in alphabetical order. i think the most performant rule to implement might actually be: 1) get the role attribute, 2) for each aria role in alphabetical order, check to see if it is in the the role attribute
  303. # [17:22] <aaronlev> that way you only have to iterate once
  304. # [17:22] <aaronlev> but it's kind of a lame rule
  305. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> ok, so then it will pick up the second token if in "checkbox alert"?
  306. # [17:23] <zcorpan_> since alert is before checkbox in your array
  307. # [17:24] <zcorpan_> i'm ok with speccing that, just want to be clear that i understand it :)
  308. # [17:28] <hsivonen> that isn't particularly intuitive
  309. # [17:29] <hsivonen> splitting on space and comparing the tokens one-by-one against the array using binary search would give more intuitive results
  310. # [17:29] <zcorpan_> yeah, that's what i intended to spec first
  311. # [17:30] <zcorpan_> but i don't have an opinion about which way is used, so long as it's defined :)
  312. # [17:31] <zcorpan_> i think that in 99% cases there will only be one value anyway
  313. # [17:33] <zcorpan_> ok, i'll catch some friday beer instead and spec it when i know which way you want to implement in firefox :)
  314. # [17:35] <aaronlev> that's fine
  315. # [17:35] <aaronlev> what hsivonen said, but i don't think we need to spec the binary search of course
  316. # [17:35] <aaronlev> just spec that we use the first aria role
  317. # [17:36] <aaronlev> zcorpan_: but, role="presentation" must be alone or it is ignored
  318. # [17:37] <aaronlev> because it's inconsistent to say it's presentation + something else
  319. # [17:37] <aaronlev> we check that separately in an earlier stage it would be fastest just to look for that in the string
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  321. # [17:41] * hsivonen finds "FIXME missing two end-of-buffer cases" in the XML parser source...
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  381. # Session Close: Sat Sep 29 00:00:00 2007

The end :)