/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-08 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Mon Oct 08 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <shepazu> zcorpan_, that's why it's better done in w3c space... you wouldn't have to worry about patent issues
  4. # [00:00] <shepazu> that was my point
  5. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> ok
  6. # [00:01] <anne> hmm, it was submitted to public-html
  7. # [00:01] <anne> I think it should be clear that there are no patent issues here
  8. # [00:02] <shepazu> anne, would you have anticipated EOLAS?
  9. # [00:02] <anne> iirc EOLAS is a perfect example of something that the current patent policy does not prevent
  10. # [00:03] <shepazu> it's more important (and obvious) in the matter of <canvas>, but my point is that we aren't lawyers
  11. # [00:04] <shepazu> and MS won't implement something that isn't clear on PP
  12. # [00:04] <shepazu> for that matter, what's the copyright on WHATWG stuff?
  13. # [00:05] <anne> hence they're part of the HTML WG and following the discussion there
  14. # [00:05] <anne> which is where Simon made his proposal, etc.
  15. # [00:05] <shepazu> I didn't see any legal notices on his proposal
  16. # [00:06] <anne> legal notices aren't put on the thousands of "I want a <burger> tag" e-mails either
  17. # [00:06] <anne> legal notices are taken care of when you join the group
  18. # [00:06] <shepazu> no....
  19. # [00:07] <shepazu> if I don't submit something to the W3C, it's not covered
  20. # [00:07] <anne> i just said it was
  21. # [00:07] <shepazu> what was?
  22. # [00:08] <shepazu> not the current state of his proposal
  23. # [00:08] <anne> <anne> hmm, it was submitted to public-html
  24. # [00:08] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218)
  25. # [00:08] <anne> oh please
  26. # [00:08] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  27. # [00:09] * shepazu goes to eat pie and meet friends
  28. # [00:16] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  29. # [00:18] * Joins: aroben_ (aroben@67.160.250.192)
  30. # [00:22] * Quits: aroben (aroben@17.203.12.72) (Quit: Leaving)
  31. # [00:33] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.7.125) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  32. # [00:50] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@72.14.77.218)
  33. # [00:50] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218) (Connection reset by peer)
  34. # [00:55] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218)
  35. # [00:55] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@72.14.77.218) (Connection reset by peer)
  36. # [00:56] * Quits: aroben_ (aroben@67.160.250.192) (Quit: Leaving)
  37. # [00:56] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218) (Connection reset by peer)
  38. # [00:57] * Joins: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218)
  39. # [00:58] * Joins: aroben (aroben@67.160.250.192)
  40. # [01:09] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  41. # [01:15] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  42. # [01:24] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@72.14.77.218)
  43. # [01:24] * Quits: mjs (mjs@72.14.77.218) (Connection reset by peer)
  44. # [01:39] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  45. # [01:51] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  46. # [01:53] * Quits: mjs_ (mjs@72.14.77.218) (Ping timeout)
  47. # [02:09] * Quits: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12) (Ping timeout)
  48. # [02:33] * Quits: aroben (aroben@67.160.250.192) (Ping timeout)
  49. # [02:55] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  50. # [04:12] <karl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Oct/0020
  51. # [04:15] * Joins: aroben (aroben@67.160.250.192)
  52. # [04:49] <karl> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/index.html
  53. # [04:49] <karl> Motivation
  54. # [04:49] <karl> The Lively Kernel places a special emphasis on treating web applications as real applications, as opposed to the document-oriented nature of most web applications today. In general, we want to put programming into web development, as opposed to the current weaving of HTML, XML and CSS documents that is also sometimes referred to as programming.
  55. # [04:50] <karl> In the Lively Kernel we attempt to do as much as possible using a single technology: JavaScript.
  56. # [04:51] <karl> A unique feature of the Lively Kernel is a graphics library called Morphic. Morphic is a user interface framework that supports composable graphical objects, along with the machinery required to display and animate these objects, handle user inputs, and manage underlying system resources such as displays, fonts and color maps.
  57. # [04:52] <karl> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/index.html#supported
  58. # [04:52] <karl> Supported Web browsers
  59. # [04:56] <karl> Sun Labs Lively Kernel Tutorial
  60. # [04:56] <karl> http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/tutorial/index.htm
  61. # [04:59] <karl> It is working in my camino
  62. # [05:01] * Quits: aroben (aroben@67.160.250.192) (Connection reset by peer)
  63. # [05:51] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  64. # [05:54] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  65. # [06:22] * Joins: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226)
  66. # [06:49] * Joins: Lionhear1 (robin@66.57.69.65)
  67. # [06:53] * Joins: myakura (myakura@124.84.146.88)
  68. # [07:05] * Joins: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84)
  69. # [07:09] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Ping timeout)
  70. # [07:23] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@67.160.250.192)
  71. # [07:23] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@67.160.250.192) (Quit: aroben)
  72. # [08:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  73. # [08:12] * Joins: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226)
  74. # [08:20] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  75. # [08:20] * Quits: heycam (cam@130.194.72.84) (Quit: bye)
  76. # [08:52] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  77. # [08:58] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  78. # [09:04] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.114.92)
  79. # [09:41] * Quits: sbuluf (usvxm@200.49.140.198) (Ping timeout)
  80. # [09:42] * Joins: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  81. # [09:46] * Joins: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30)
  82. # [09:49] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  83. # [10:18] * Joins: anne (annevk@81.68.67.12)
  84. # [10:38] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  85. # [10:49] * Joins: Lachy (lachlan_hu@213.236.208.22)
  86. # [10:52] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  87. # [11:10] <karl> http://dublincore.org/architecturewiki/DCXHTMLGuidelines/2007-07-27
  88. # [11:10] <karl> Where these conventions are used to represent a DC metadata description set in an X/HTML document, the value of the profile attribute of the X/HTML head element must include the URI of this X/HTML metadata profile `http://dublincore.org/documents/2007/07/27/dc-html/
  89. # [11:11] <karl> hmm I wonder if they have implementations using the profile attribute.
  90. # [11:17] <karl> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%22head+profile%22+&btnG=Search
  91. # [11:19] <karl> mainly XFN microformats in template generation
  92. # [11:26] <anne> hsivonen, you also need to be able to change the color I think, some scenes in LotR for instance require black subtitles because it's just too light
  93. # [11:26] <anne> s/require/use/
  94. # [11:26] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  95. # [11:40] <hsivonen> anne: that's what the black outline is for
  96. # [11:40] <hsivonen> anne: the Finnish TV system has done fine through my whole literate life with one kind of color
  97. # [11:44] <anne> outline for the glyphs? seems more expensive than changing the color, but fine with me
  98. # [11:44] <hsivonen> anne: the outline is there always
  99. # [11:45] <anne> oh
  100. # [11:45] <hsivonen> anne: see the background window in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/Conan-ja-kotirouvat.jpg
  101. # [11:45] * hsivonen looks for a better screenshot
  102. # [11:46] <anne> that works, thanks
  103. # [11:46] <hsivonen> http://www.juhaterho.fi/proverbiaalinen/pora/katapultti.jpg is better
  104. # [11:47] <karl> I wonder if it's working well with all scripts
  105. # [11:48] <karl> hmm here they did the opposite - http://www.loveasianfilm.com/images/onthemountainoftaihang_dvdstills02.jpg
  106. # [11:49] <karl> white outline around black character
  107. # [11:50] <anne> well yeah, lots of different subtitles can be found in the wild, ask Joe Clark
  108. # [11:50] <karl> aaaah and here white character and black outline
  109. # [11:50] <karl> http://img.verycd.com/posts/0601/post-416788-1136596259.jpg
  110. # [11:50] <anne> I believe the question is what's minimally needed from a subtitle system
  111. # [11:51] <hsivonen> if you ask Joe Clark, be sure not to call captions subtitles. :-)
  112. # [11:51] <karl> ahaha
  113. # [11:53] <anne> is there a specific difference? wikipedia doesn't really make one
  114. # [11:54] <hsivonen> anne: in non-UK English captions are for the deaf and subtitles are translations
  115. # [11:54] <hsivonen> anne: IIRC, wikipedia mentions this somewhere
  116. # [11:54] <karl> Captioning: Rendering of speech and other audible information in the written language of the audio. (See Gary Robson’s FAQ.) Usually closed: Captions are encoded or invisible and must be decoded or made visible. Some captions are open and can’t be turned off.
  117. # [11:55] <karl> Subtitling, rendering a translation of dialogue and certain onscreen elements in visible words. Not the same as captioning. Despite their seeming similarity, captioning and subtitling have very little in common.
  118. # [11:55] <karl> from http://joeclark.org/access/resources/understanding.html
  119. # [11:55] <karl> under captioning there is a series of examples
  120. # [11:57] <karl> in Japan, captions on DVD are called "Subtitles with comments"
  121. # [11:58] <anne> hmm, those definitions don't cover the case where you have an English movie where you can pick both English and English for the hearing impaired "subtitles"
  122. # [11:58] <hsivonen> anne: English for the hearing impaired == captions
  123. # [11:58] <karl> captions
  124. # [11:58] <anne> and what's the former?
  125. # [11:58] <hsivonen> anne: search Joe Clark's site for an opinion on the former :-)
  126. # [11:58] <karl> subtitles just the dialogs
  127. # [11:59] <karl> I just gave the link to the page
  128. # [11:59] <hsivonen> anne: the former is same-language subtitles
  129. # [11:59] <anne> well, the definition says a translation of the dialogs karl
  130. # [11:59] <hsivonen> (Joe doesn't appear to like those :-)
  131. # [11:59] <karl> English movie with English Subtitles
  132. # [11:59] <karl> or English movie with Captions Subtitles
  133. # [11:59] <karl> two possibilities
  134. # [12:00] <hsivonen> anne: English subtitles on English content are used when the viewer's English skills are bad but the viewer is not deaf
  135. # [12:00] <karl> another example of subtitles a bit specific would be Karaoke
  136. # [12:00] <hsivonen> anne: like TV5 broadcasts French movies with French subtitles in order to spread the language
  137. # [12:00] <karl> hsivonen: or the accent is very hard to understand ;)
  138. # [12:01] <anne> I appreciate same-language subtitles a lot
  139. # [12:01] <karl> for example a local scottish accent for an american
  140. # [12:01] <anne> they don't bother me with silly information about what music is playing on the background and I don't have too pay as much attention
  141. # [12:01] <anne> as when normally viewing the movie
  142. # [12:02] * anne found http://joeclark.org/axxlog/2003/2003b.html?fb#SLS-India-h1
  143. # [12:06] <karl> interesting post
  144. # [12:06] <karl> I work the other way around
  145. # [12:07] <karl> it is usually for me harder to speak/hear than read a new language.
  146. # [12:09] <hsivonen> does "read" mean reading lips in this context?
  147. # [12:09] <hsivonen> in Joe's blog post that is
  148. # [12:09] <hsivonen> ah. no
  149. # [12:10] <hsivonen> karl: I agree that reading is easier than listening when it comes to a new language
  150. # [12:12] <anne> "Actually, according to palsied, ossified subtitling idiom, that has to be I’LL BE BACK in capitals, because the subtitle renders visible words. And no period."
  151. # [12:13] * anne reads more joe clark subitlte/caption material while playing with XHR impl
  152. # [12:19] * Quits: karl (karlcow@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?)
  153. # [12:21] <hsivonen> anne: I think his opinions are a bit biased by an English-language environment where almost all movies that non-deaf people experience are in English and the potential audience of English-reading deaf is in itself huge
  154. # [12:22] <hsivonen> unless I'm missing something significant going on in Finland, the deaf in Finland have to go with subtitles targeted at hearing Finnish readers when they watch TV or go to movies
  155. # [12:23] <anne> yeah, although Joe claims they are totally different mostly captions and subtitles seem reasonably the same
  156. # [12:24] <anne> although I suppose I've watched less English movies with subtitles/captions than him
  157. # [12:26] <hsivonen> I meant that he doesn't like it that those who have bad English listening comprehension get service (same-language subtitles) before the deaf (captions)
  158. # [12:26] <hsivonen> with small languages like Finnish, foreign content only gets translated (not described), as far as I can tell.
  159. # [12:32] <hsivonen> anne: what's the subtitle text like graphically on Dutch TV? is it outlineless?
  160. # [12:36] <anne> I think so, but now I'm not sure anymore
  161. # [12:36] * anne turns on TV
  162. # [12:37] <anne> seems like there's a small outline
  163. # [12:38] <hsivonen> ok
  164. # [13:09] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  165. # [13:48] <Philip> About audio description tracks, I think I've only ever seen one on TV, but that one had non-trivial mixing so the normal actors' voices and the narration (on top of the sound effects and background music) were both similar volumes
  166. # [13:54] * Parts: Lachy (lachlan_hu@213.236.208.22)
  167. # [13:55] <hsivonen> Philip: I've seen a Flash sample of Coronation Street with audio descriptions. Is Coronation Street broadcast with closed audio descriptions?
  168. # [13:57] * hsivonen googles
  169. # [13:59] <hsivonen> hmm. RNIB uses Word files to communicate information on the Web...
  170. # [14:03] <hsivonen> it appears that audio descriptions are available on many TV channels in the UK, but the information available on the Web is geared towards end users and doesn't reveal implementation details
  171. # [14:04] <hsivonen> according to Wikipedia, the North American impl. is premixed
  172. # [14:07] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Ping timeout)
  173. # [14:09] * Philip doesn't have a TV now, and doesn't know how to activate subtitles / audio descriptions / etc on a TV anyway, and so can't be very helpful
  174. # [14:13] <Philip> (Having multiple partially-redundant audio channels in the media file seems alright on TV and DVD since they have enough space for it, but I can't imagine it being very popular on the internet where you have to pay for the bandwidth)
  175. # [14:18] <hsivonen> Philip: I agree.
  176. # [14:18] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  177. # [14:19] <hsivonen> Philip: if it turns out that an embedded, *supplementary*, low-overhead Speex track isn't feasible, we should probably toss the problem to the content producer side and ask them to provide alternative files
  178. # [14:20] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.71.152) (Quit: leaving)
  179. # [14:20] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  180. # [14:21] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Quit: leaving)
  181. # [14:22] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  182. # [14:45] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  183. # [15:37] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  184. # [15:42] * Joins: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38)
  185. # [15:50] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.7.125)
  186. # [15:50] * tH_ is now known as tH
  187. # [15:54] <krijnh> anne: typo in your latest blog post: "Maybe a feature version" -> future
  188. # [15:55] <anne> hmm
  189. # [15:55] <krijnh> Or did you mean a feature version?
  190. # [15:56] <anne> a second-to-last
  191. # [15:56] <anne> s/a /ah, /
  192. # [15:56] <krijnh> Ah, sorry
  193. # [15:57] <anne> thanks
  194. # [15:57] <krijnh> Your last one wasn't in bloglines yet
  195. # [16:09] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@209.6.168.245)
  196. # [16:24] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74)
  197. # [16:26] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  198. # [16:31] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  199. # [16:51] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  200. # [16:56] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74)
  201. # [17:01] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  202. # [17:02] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  203. # [17:02] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  204. # [17:06] * Quits: myakura (myakura@124.84.146.88) (Quit: Leaving...)
  205. # [17:14] * Quits: timbl (timbl@146.115.66.146) (Ping timeout)
  206. # [17:17] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  207. # [17:17] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  208. # [17:18] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  209. # [17:18] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  210. # [17:33] <anne> hmm, HTTP interoperability...
  211. # [17:42] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  212. # [17:43] * Quits: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417])
  213. # [17:43] <anne> I hacked the Python server a bit more and I can now make my own "asis" files. Similar to Apache, except that no header whatsoever is generated in my version.
  214. # [17:43] <anne> Browsers are already non-interoperable when it comes to multiple Location or Content-Type headers
  215. # [17:43] <anne> and that's everything I've tested so far
  216. # [17:44] <anne> They do all recognize that supporting LF besides the mandatory CRLF from HTTP is a nice thing to do
  217. # [17:45] <anne> And they also all agree that listing the status text and status after HTTP/1.1 is not necessarily needed and can be omitted (prolly defaulting to 200 OK?!)
  218. # [17:45] <gsnedders> anne: yeah, 200
  219. # [17:45] <anne> Similarly, "HTTP/1.1 302 FOOBAR" results in a redirect
  220. # [17:45] <gsnedders> anne: the status text is in some cases not sent anyway
  221. # [17:46] <gsnedders> anne: that's as per RFC2616
  222. # [17:46] <gsnedders> anne: the status text is meaningless, though required
  223. # [17:46] <anne> oh, status text is optional?
  224. # [17:46] <gsnedders> anne: no, it must be there, though it means nothing
  225. # [17:46] <anne> grmbl
  226. # [17:46] <gsnedders> anne: I think 200 foo is valid
  227. # [17:46] <gsnedders> anne: you just need _something_
  228. # [17:46] <anne> i do love this Python Web server thingie though
  229. # [17:47] <gsnedders> my one ended up with such a terrible codebase
  230. # [17:47] <anne> I can test everything I couldn't before. The only problem is that whenever I update it I have to rerun the script and pick a different port
  231. # [17:47] <gsnedders> I'm planning on writing a new one
  232. # [17:47] <anne> you want mine? it's 87 lines of pretty ok code...
  233. # [17:48] <gsnedders> anne: "The reason phrases listed here are only recommendations -- they MAY be replaced by local equivalents without affecting the protocol."
  234. # [17:48] <anne> lol
  235. # [17:48] <gsnedders> anne: I'd rather write my own. Good practice for my Python (which isn't that brillaint)
  236. # [17:48] <gsnedders> anne: (that's from RFC2616, BTW)
  237. # [17:49] <anne> i got that
  238. # [17:49] <gsnedders> anne: you need the space preceding the reason phrase, but the reason phrase itself may be blank
  239. # [17:49] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  240. # [17:49] <gsnedders> anne: it's mad. :)
  241. # [17:49] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.247)
  242. # [17:49] <anne> you sure?
  243. # [17:49] * anne goes to test
  244. # [17:50] <gsnedders> anne: oh, that's per RFC 2616
  245. # [17:50] <gsnedders> anne: in the real world, nothing requires that space
  246. # [17:50] <gsnedders> lots of things break if you try and require it
  247. # [17:50] <anne> indeed, without that space things just work
  248. # [17:51] * gsnedders got bug reports on the first HTTP client I wrote, which did quite strictly follow RFC2616
  249. # [17:51] <anne> without HTTP/1.1 it is all printed as text/plain though
  250. # [17:51] <gsnedders> HTTP/1.1.1 has different results in different UAs
  251. # [17:52] <gsnedders> Safari prints out the entire response, most other just take it as HTTP/1.1
  252. # [17:56] <gsnedders> hopefully I'll have time over my October holidays to work on HTTP parsing…
  253. # [17:57] <anne> this is fun stuff
  254. # [17:57] <gsnedders> saner than HTML, though
  255. # [17:57] <anne> like a whole new can of interoperability holes to exploit
  256. # [17:57] <gsnedders> (mostly)
  257. # [17:57] <gsnedders> IIS does some really weird stuff
  258. # [17:58] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Ping timeout)
  259. # [17:59] <gsnedders> If-None-Match: foobar returns 400 (Bad Request), whereas If-None-Match: "foobar" works fine
  260. # [18:01] * Joins: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74)
  261. # [18:15] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@209.6.168.245) (Ping timeout)
  262. # [18:18] * Quits: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189) (Ping timeout)
  263. # [18:21] * Joins: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115)
  264. # [18:22] * Joins: jmb (jmb@152.78.68.189)
  265. # [18:46] <gsnedders> anne: you have U+00A in your latest blog post, instead of U+000A
  266. # [18:55] * Joins: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167)
  267. # [18:59] <anne> oops
  268. # [19:00] <gsnedders> anne: (and I've posted a comment)
  269. # [19:01] * Quits: Zeros (Zeros-Elip@129.2.175.74) (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
  270. # [19:04] <anne> good point, changed U+000A to 0x0A etc.
  271. # [19:07] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  272. # [19:08] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.137.237.196) (Quit: 404: Not Found)
  273. # [19:38] * Quits: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115) (Quit: Leaving)
  274. # [20:20] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  275. # [20:21] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.137.237.196)
  276. # [20:34] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  277. # [20:45] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.116.222.46)
  278. # [21:00] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Ping timeout)
  279. # [21:05] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  280. # [21:20] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@63.116.222.46) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.7/2007091417])
  281. # [21:32] <anne> jgraham, you're going to blog today?
  282. # [21:49] <gsnedders> jgraham has a blog?
  283. # [21:52] <anne> well, on blog.whatwg.org about the html5lib release
  284. # [21:53] <Hixie> well that was a big checkin
  285. # [21:54] <anne> HTTP/ followed by a non-DIGIT non-space character gives errors in IE
  286. # [21:54] <anne> other browsers just ignore HTTP/x and happily continue
  287. # [21:54] <anne> IE continues for HTTP/2 as well...
  288. # [21:54] <anne> hmm
  289. # [21:54] <gsnedders> Saf shows it all as text
  290. # [21:54] <gsnedders> then does normal content-type sniffing, I think
  291. # [21:55] <anne> Hixie, heh, indeed
  292. # [21:56] * gsnedders better copy that first change into http-parsing
  293. # [21:57] <gsnedders> (yes, I'm a lame copycat)
  294. # [21:57] <Hixie> heh
  295. # [21:58] <Hixie> i don't know if people'll like it or not
  296. # [21:58] <Hixie> i think it's redundant really
  297. # [21:58] <Hixie> but i figured i'd give it a shot
  298. # [21:58] <gsnedders> we say that algorithms must be followed, don't we?
  299. # [21:59] <gsnedders> (and for once I don't mean "you" when I say "we")
  300. # [21:59] <Hixie> right
  301. # [21:59] <Hixie> that's why it's probably redundant
  302. # [21:59] <anne> i'm not going to do it for other specs unless there are specific requests
  303. # [22:00] <gsnedders> I'm in no rush to copy it, as there aren't really any major algorithms in my draft yet
  304. # [22:00] <gsnedders> (silly schoolwork taking my time)
  305. # [22:00] <anne> is there a draft yet?
  306. # [22:01] <gsnedders> anne: nothing really worth showing anyone, and with almost nothing in it (i.e., it doesn't actually define the parsing of the data)
  307. # [22:03] * gsnedders has to remember that US-ASCII is 8-bit and Unicode 16-bit for his computing test tomorrow
  308. # [22:03] * Joins: ROBOd2 (robod@89.122.216.38)
  309. # [22:03] * Quits: ROBOd2 (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  310. # [22:03] <anne> heh
  311. # [22:03] <anne> that sucks
  312. # [22:04] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  313. # [22:04] <gsnedders> It's the sort of thing that normally makes me do badly.
  314. # [22:04] <Hixie> "you want me to say that it's 8bit, but it's actually 7bit (assuming you are actually referring to ANSI_X3.4-1968)"
  315. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: :)
  316. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: I took it up with the teacher once…
  317. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: Without a copy of ANSI_X3.4-1968 it's hard to prove, though
  318. # [22:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: Been tempted to point him at unicode.org, though
  319. # [22:07] <Hixie> and "You want me to say 16bit, but Unicode isn't an encoding format, so it doesn't actually have a size. It has codepoints from 0x00 to 0x10FFFF, and has encodings that use 7 bit components (UTF-7), 8 bit components (UTF-8), 16 bit components (UTF-16), and 32 bits (UTF-32); however in none of those encodings is a single character necessarily represented by a single codepoint and therefore even in those encodings it is hard to describe an actual size."
  320. # [22:07] <gsnedders> :)
  321. # [22:07] <Hixie> enjoy your test though
  322. # [22:07] <anne> even for UTF-32?
  323. # [22:07] * gsnedders wonders what would happen if he actually wrote that
  324. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: there is only one way in UTF-8: non-shortest forms are illegal byte sequences
  325. # [22:08] <Hixie> anne: combining codepoints
  326. # [22:08] <gsnedders> Hixie: ah. those.
  327. # [22:08] <Hixie> even if you apply a radical normalisation form like NFKC, you still can't guarentee that one character has one byte
  328. # [22:09] <Hixie> or one "codepoint"
  329. # [22:09] <Hixie> rather
  330. # [22:09] <Hixie> anyway i'm starving, bbiab
  331. # [22:09] <gsnedders> Hixie: possibly more to your liking, physics test on Wednesday
  332. # [22:09] <gsnedders> (and it isn't (mostly) wrong)
  333. # [22:10] <gsnedders> I'm tempted to write something like that, but the answers get sent to the exam board…
  334. # [22:12] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  335. # [22:13] <Hixie> i'm not advising you either way :-)
  336. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: on grounds that you don't want me to be technically wrong, and you don't want me to fail? :)
  337. # [22:36] * Joins: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.99.225)
  338. # [22:38] * Quits: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.247) (Ping timeout)
  339. # [22:42] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.137.237.196) (Quit: 404: Not Found)
  340. # [22:43] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.131)
  341. # [22:53] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Ping timeout)
  342. # [22:54] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  343. # [23:06] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  344. # [23:12] <Hixie> gsnedders: on grounds that i don't know what the good advice would be :-)
  345. # [23:22] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  346. # [23:27] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.43.120.234)
  347. # [23:32] <anne> Hixie, your last checkin actually affects Opera and not Firefox iirc
  348. # [23:33] <Hixie> oh?
  349. # [23:33] <Hixie> i thought firefox had an implementation
  350. # [23:33] <Hixie> and didn't know opera did
  351. # [23:33] <anne> Opera 9.50 Alpha shipped with some sort of array impl
  352. # [23:33] <Hixie> ah
  353. # [23:33] <anne> I don't think the impl made for Firefox ever got in the code
  354. # [23:33] <anne> checked in, I mean
  355. # [23:34] <Hixie> seems you're right
  356. # [23:34] <Hixie> oh well
  357. # [23:34] <Hixie> didn't know about the opera one, please do send feedback if the change is one that you disagree with
  358. # [23:35] <kingryan> Hixie: would it be possible to link the twitter messages to the diff for the changset?
  359. # [23:36] <anne> I think we're ok with it for similar reasons
  360. # [23:36] <Dashiva> I seem to recall words to that effect
  361. # [23:36] * Quits: aroben_ (adamroben@17.255.99.225) (Quit: aroben_)
  362. # [23:36] <Hixie> kingryan: not trivially, but if you want to code that up i can give you the code i'm using now and i'll happily apply any patches you suggest
  363. # [23:37] <Hixie> anne: good good
  364. # [23:37] * kingryan pretends he never asked
  365. # [23:37] <Hixie> :-(
  366. # [23:37] <kingryan> is it a svn commit hook?
  367. # [23:37] <kingryan> (/me was just kidding)
  368. # [23:37] <Hixie> not right now, but it could be
  369. # [23:38] <kingryan> when the code runs, does it have access to the revision number?
  370. # [23:38] <Hixie> let me just mail you the code, it'll be easier and i can get back to dealing with feedback while you look at it :-)
  371. # [23:38] <Hixie> what's your e-mail address?
  372. # [23:39] <kingryan> ryan@theryanking.com
  373. # [23:43] * Joins: aroben (adamroben@17.203.15.247)
  374. # [23:43] <Hixie> sent
  375. # [23:47] <anne> Tantek: "theory: most html5 drama is a result of pragmatic empiricists finally challenging idealistic dogmatists"
  376. # [23:48] <Dashiva> Theory or hypothesis? :)
  377. # [23:49] <anne> meanwhile on WHATWG twitter "t271t"
  378. # [23:51] <Dashiva> Hixie: What's the reasoning for returning nothing on empty string?
  379. # [23:51] <Hixie> Dashiva: failing cheaply
  380. # [23:52] <Philip> Other theory: some HTML5 drama is a result of classifying people you disagree with into groups like "idealistic dogmatists" :-)
  381. # [23:52] <Dashiva> Kinda nasty if you use a variable set of classes and at some point the set is empty
  382. # [23:53] <Dashiva> Philip: Only an idealistic dogmatist would object to pragmatic empricial placement of people in groups
  383. # [23:54] <Hixie> Dashiva: can you give an example of a page that does that?
  384. # [23:58] * Quits: mjs (mjs@66.43.120.234) (Ping timeout)
  385. # [23:58] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.43.120.234)
  386. # [23:58] <Dashiva> No, but as a developer I would rather have a predictable function
  387. # [23:59] <Dashiva> People will shoot themselves in the foot with for (var i = 0; i < document.getElementsByClassName('pie').length; i++ ) anyway :)
  388. # [23:59] * Quits: mjs (mjs@66.43.120.234) (Connection reset by peer)
  389. # [23:59] * Joins: mjs (mjs@66.43.120.234)
  390. # Session Close: Tue Oct 09 00:00:00 2007

The end :)