/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Oct 09 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:00] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's not a matter of failing cheaply for the web authors
  4. # [00:00] <Hixie> Dashiva: it's a matter of failing cheaply for the users and implementors
  5. # [00:02] <Dashiva> But whether it ends up failing is up to the author. And I don't see how authors are likely to fail just this function enough to make a difference, without also having generally poor performance code
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  8. # [00:03] <Hixie> i don't understand what site is going to actually want to get all elements this way
  9. # [00:03] <Hixie> i understand your theoretical use case
  10. # [00:03] <Hixie> but i don't see any evidence that that would ever happen
  11. # [00:04] <anne> can't we introduce * if the need is there?
  12. # [00:04] <Hixie> we already have * in at least two other APIs
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  15. # [00:10] <Dashiva> If it's not '', I don't see a point in allowing '*' since you might as well use gEBTN when you're special-casing the empty set
  16. # [00:12] <Hixie> agreed
  17. # [00:12] <kingryan> Hixie: commit.pl modified and replied, hopefully it'll be helpful
  18. # [00:13] <Hixie> thanks
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  20. # [00:14] <kingryan> btw, my connection to http://www.whatwg.org/issues/listen keeps timing out. is there anyone besides hixie who can look at that?
  21. # [00:16] <anne> nope, Hixie handles that part of whatwg.org
  22. # [00:16] <Hixie> how do you mean, timing out?
  23. # [00:17] <anne> although it seems to work for me (trying with wget)
  24. # [00:17] <zcorpan_> <div class="*"> .. getElementsByClassName("*")
  25. # [00:17] <kingryan> it never finishes loading and safari reports it as a timeout
  26. # [00:17] <Hixie> zcorpan_: that'll work
  27. # [00:18] <kingryan> (safari 3)
  28. # [00:18] <Hixie> kingryan: it's not supposed to finish loading.
  29. # [00:18] <Hixie> kingryan: not sure what "timeout" safari3 is hitting though
  30. # [00:18] <zcorpan_> Hixie: yep
  31. # [00:20] <Hixie> kingryan: (fyi, when changing system {} '', '' to ``, you have to drop the first argument)
  32. # [00:20] <kingryan> ah yes
  33. # [00:20] <kingryan> I changed that in my test script, but forgot to backport it
  34. # [00:21] <Hixie> though i never really feel safe running `` code, i always think i'm gonna be passing something to a shell
  35. # [00:21] <jgraham> anne: Not today, went to see a film instead. "Control". Highly recommended. Now - sleep.
  36. # [00:22] <Hixie> also you forgot quotes around the argument :-)
  37. # [00:22] <kingryan> Hixie: I, also feel weird using it, but it's the only shell scripting interface in perl (that I know of) that lets you capture the STDOUT
  38. # [00:22] <Hixie> i wrote my own once
  39. # [00:22] <Hixie> to get around this
  40. # [00:22] <Hixie> called safeBackticks or something
  41. # [00:22] <Hixie> i can't use this though
  42. # [00:22] <kingryan> why not?
  43. # [00:22] <Hixie> because it would break if the message contained quotes
  44. # [00:23] <kingryan> ah yeah
  45. # [00:23] * Hixie adds some code to escape them
  46. # [00:23] <Hixie> i have no idea what kind of escaping i need here
  47. # [00:24] <Hixie> i don't know what shell is being used
  48. # [00:24] * Hixie passes the commit message by file instead
  49. # [00:24] <Philip> open $fh, '-|', 'program', 'arg1', arg2'; ?
  50. # [00:24] <Hixie> Philip: does that run 'program' via a shell, or directly, as in system {} ?
  51. # [00:25] <kingryan> http://perldoc.perl.org/perlop.html#Regexp-Quote-Like-Operators sugggests using the Text::Balanced module
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  53. # [00:28] <Hixie> perlipc helpfully says:
  54. # [00:28] <Hixie> Another common use for this construct is when you need to execute some-
  55. # [00:28] <Hixie> thing without the shell's interference. With system(), it's straight-
  56. # [00:28] <Hixie> forward, but you can't use a pipe open or backticks safely. That's
  57. # [00:28] <Hixie> because there's no way to stop the shell from getting its hands on your
  58. # [00:28] <Hixie> arguments. Instead, use lower-level control to call exec() directly.
  59. # [00:28] <Hixie> (and gives some gnarly examples of what they mean)
  60. # [00:29] <Hixie> (which is what i based that aforementioned implementation on)
  61. # [00:29] <Philip> Hixie: I can't find anything obvious in the documentation to say what happens with list-open, but it seems to work in the practice at avoiding the shell
  62. # [00:29] <Hixie> Philip: i just found a paragraph in perlipc that says that it's the way to avoid a shell invokation, and that's it's new as of 5.8.0
  63. # [00:29] <Philip> e.g. "open $fh, '-|', 'echo', '$PATH'" says "$PATH", whereas "open $fh, '-|', 'echo $PATH'" prints the actual path
  64. # [00:29] <Hixie> which postdates my previous attempt at this
  65. # [00:30] <Philip> Aha, okay
  66. # [00:31] <Hixie> well, that was far more complicated than necessary to do what kingryan was trying to do
  67. # [00:33] <Hixie> ok well we'll see what happens now
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  78. # [04:45] <karl> http://www.caroline-middlebrook.com/blog/warning-dont-overlook-wordpress-blog-validation
  79. # [04:45] <karl> "The Image Description field populates the ALT tag as I have shown. This is a nice place to put keywords as long as you don’t overdo it."
  80. # [04:45] <karl> ????
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  84. # [07:00] <karl> anne: do you know this? http://www.w3.org/2001/01/qa-ws/pp/alex-rousskov-measfact.html
  85. # [07:01] <karl> and this http://httpd.apache.org/test/
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  95. # [10:08] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  96. # [10:08] * Set by DanC on Thu Sep 06 23:39:27
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  121. # [12:49] * anne wonders if Yves is suggesting that IPV and TCP have the same interoperability issues as the rest of the Web standards
  122. # [12:49] * anne wouldn't be surprised
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  124. # [12:52] <anne> DanC, you might want to update http://www.w3.org/2007/app to point to RFC 5023
  125. # [13:22] * hsivonen takes the ostrich approach to data templates for now
  126. # [13:37] <anne> hsivonen, what's the ostrich approach and I'm not sure I understand the concern about specialcasing GET access requests
  127. # [13:38] <anne> the reason there's a GET access request is that for XML resources this gives the author the ability to deny certain domains without server support
  128. # [13:38] <hsivonen> anne: the ostrich approach is putting my head in the sand and pretending the issue does not exist
  129. # [13:38] <anne> the other reason is that for the author supporting GET is the most trivial
  130. # [13:38] <anne> hsivonen, ah, duh :)
  131. # [13:39] <hsivonen> anne: making GET responses stick in the cache when RFC 2616 says otherwise would seriously suck in the following case:
  132. # [13:39] <hsivonen> 1) script GETs /foo
  133. # [13:39] <hsivonen> 2) script wants to POST to /foo
  134. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 3) XHR GETs /foo with method check and pins the response to cache
  135. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 4) XHR performs the POST
  136. # [13:40] <hsivonen> 5) Script GETs the resource and gets a stale copy
  137. # [13:40] <hsivonen> script dev curses, appends salt and all cache benefits are lost
  138. # [13:41] <anne> I think we should be able to specify it in a way that for 5 you get a fresh copy
  139. # [13:41] <anne> but for subsequent POST requests the cached copy is used
  140. # [13:41] <hsivonen> anne: now, if you special-case the GET response cache pinning so that any non-access-control GET invalidates the cache lazily,
  141. # [13:42] <hsivonen> anne: wouldn't you be better off specifying this on a layer above HTTP
  142. # [13:42] <hsivonen> anne: instead of surgically altering HTTP caching behavior
  143. # [13:42] <hsivonen> anne: i.e. leaking your spec to the HTTP library
  144. # [13:43] * anne is trying not to feel responsible as he didn't come up with the solution
  145. # [13:43] <hsivonen> anne: how's your suggesting better than maintaining a separate access-control cache that wouldn't even require reparsing of the cached GET response?
  146. # [13:43] <anne> I suppose the layer above HTTP is OPTIONS?
  147. # [13:43] <hsivonen> no, OPTIONS is on HTTP layer
  148. # [13:44] <anne> right, that's what I thought, so what's your solution?
  149. # [13:44] <hsivonen> but remembering that /foo allows XHR POST is above HTTP
  150. # [13:44] <hsivonen> my solution is maintaining a method permission table that is independent of the HTTP cache
  151. # [13:45] <anne> my solution was maintaining an independent cache for access requests
  152. # [13:45] <anne> to not lose benefits of the HTTP cache
  153. # [13:46] <hsivonen> anne: do you mean a separate HTTP caching context that within itself behaves like a normal HTTP cache?
  154. # [13:46] <anne> I think so, so it honers HTTP headers related to caching
  155. # [13:47] <hsivonen> specifying that access-control checks happen in a separate HTTP caching context would solve the problem if browser devs are willing to built that capability
  156. # [13:48] <hsivonen> do browsers already have side-by-side independent HTTP caches?
  157. # [13:48] <anne> we do for widgets at least
  158. # [13:49] <anne> a simpler solution than that might be good as well though
  159. # [13:49] <anne> i'm just not sure what to say about when that "access allowed" thingie would expire, etc.
  160. # [13:50] <hsivonen> yes, that's an issue.
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  162. # [13:50] <hsivonen> mainly for testing apps, though
  163. # [13:51] <hsivonen> once you get the permissions right, expiry until at the end of browser process might works
  164. # [13:52] <anne> hmm
  165. # [13:52] <hsivonen> or you could have a dedicated time-to-live header to go with the permission
  166. # [13:56] <zcorpan_> "in the upcoming release of the Markup Validator, detected usage of shorthand markup will be signaled as a warning." -- http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/shorttags.html
  167. # [13:59] * hsivonen mumbles something about GETsful software that can only do GET and POST
  168. # [13:59] <anne> hsivonen, I'm posting something to public-appformats now with the four solutions
  169. # [13:59] <hsivonen> anne: ok
  170. # [14:01] <hsivonen> hmm. is <base> now intentionally allowed in XHTML5?
  171. # [14:01] <anne> I should probably introduce the term "access request check" or something
  172. # [14:01] <hsivonen> yes
  173. # [14:03] <hsivonen> so is <base href=''/> considered to apply between the HTTP base URI and the root element xml:base in the inheritance chain?
  174. # [14:04] <anne> <base> is the Document.baseURI
  175. # [14:04] <anne> so yes
  176. # [14:04] <hsivonen> fun
  177. # [14:04] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes (re xhtml5)
  178. # [14:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: "A base element, if it has an href attribute, must come before any other elements in the tree that have attributes with URIs." seems tautologous to me
  179. # [14:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: is it?
  180. # [14:05] <hsivonen> Hixie: that is, if the only start tags that can conformingly occur before are <html>, <head> and <meta charset>
  181. # [14:05] <hsivonen> and profile is no more and never was a normal URI
  182. # [14:06] <zcorpan_> (or perhaps the intent was to relax the requirement so that you could e.g. place <title> before the <base>)
  183. # [14:07] <hsivonen> time to send mail, I guess
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  186. # [14:36] <anne> hsivonen, if we pick option 4 (re: public-appformats) it would maybe be good to also invalidate the stored option if the access check of the POST request failed
  187. # [14:38] <hsivonen> yeah
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  189. # [14:45] * hsivonen notes weird rel and relList duplication in the DOM
  190. # [14:46] <anne> duplication?
  191. # [14:52] <hsivonen> anne: the spec says that the rel and relList DOM properties must reflect the rel content attribute
  192. # [14:55] <anne> that seems about right
  193. # [14:56] <anne> well, except for the word properties
  194. # [14:56] <hsivonen> word properties?
  195. # [14:56] <anne> "properties" -> "attributes"
  196. # [14:57] <hsivonen> oh. right
  197. # [14:58] <anne> note that reflect is defined based on the type of attribute
  198. # [14:58] <anne> so for relList it means something different
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  200. # [14:59] <anne> (type of DOM attribute)
  201. # [15:00] <hsivonen> oh
  202. # [15:03] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: re <meta>, i think the intent is to allow <meta name> in other languages where metadata elements are expected
  203. # [15:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: that intent isn't at all clear
  204. # [15:04] <hsivonen> to me at least
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  214. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> wonder if i should test all aspects of [[Get]] on HTMLDocument and Window, and how they interact with functions, methods, properties and attributes
  215. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> e.g. <img name=getElementsByTagName>
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  222. # [17:45] <anne> Are there any outstanding comments on <video> not having height=/width=?
  223. # [17:45] <anne> hsivonen, you might have raised that already?
  224. # [17:53] <zcorpan_> anne: doesn't seem like it
  225. # [17:54] <zcorpan_> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder/graphics-video
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  227. # [17:54] * zcorpan_ searched through the "View all messages from this folder." page
  228. # [17:57] * Philip wonders if Google has indexed all the messages there
  229. # [17:58] <zcorpan_> http://www.google.com/search?q=site:canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/+cgi/issues.cgi&filter=0
  230. # [18:00] <Philip> Hmm, I guess that's a no
  231. # [18:02] <zcorpan_> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/message/%3C19700101011405970191.5386b4d6%40empyree.org%3E
  232. # [18:03] <Philip> Yahoo is a bit better, with about forty pages (out the two(?) thousand in total)
  233. # [18:03] <Philip> zcorpan_: Blame Hixie for that :-)
  234. # [18:03] <zcorpan_> :)
  235. # [18:10] <zcorpan_> Philip: could you have different <title>s for the pages?
  236. # [18:11] <zcorpan_> the subject line as <title>
  237. # [18:12] <zcorpan_> or the folder name for folders :)
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  240. # [18:18] * zcorpan_ doesn't find his color attribute parsing feedback
  241. # [18:19] <Philip> I guess it'd be nice to show the subject rather than ID on the message pages, but I can't see a trivial way to get that information (since '/issues/getdata body $id' only returns the body)
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  243. # [18:20] <Philip> Hixie: Would it be possible to make the issues API return the subject line for a given message ID?
  244. # [18:22] <Philip> zcorpan_: It does <title>s now, though with the message ID on the message pages
  245. # [18:24] <zcorpan_> ok
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  252. # [19:18] <hsivonen> anne: I don't remember if I've raised video height/width in email, but it have discussed it on IRC
  253. # [19:20] <hsivonen> anne: I don't find a record of me raising it on-list
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  261. # [21:28] <Hixie> Philip: yeah, that should be possible... what level API? the server, or getdata?
  262. # [21:30] <Philip> Hixie: getdata (since I think that was the only documented API when I wrote this - I didn't even know there was another API until I looked just now)
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  264. # [21:35] <Hixie> Philip: ok, added
  265. # [21:43] <Philip> Hixie: Thanks!
  266. # [21:43] <Philip> zcorpan: It shows the subject in the <title>/<h1> now
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The end :)