/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-10 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Wed Oct 10 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
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  17. # [01:53] <anne> Hixie, I think <video> needs height= / width= as convenient shorthands
  18. # [01:53] <Hixie> why?
  19. # [01:53] <Hixie> (why can't a single line in a stylesheet do it instead?)
  20. # [01:53] <anne> because people want convenient shorthands
  21. # [01:53] <anne> and expect it to work like that
  22. # [01:54] <Hixie> people expect <font> to work, doesn't mean we should encourage it. we have the opportunity here to prevent abuse, why not take it?
  23. # [01:54] <anne> it make a lot of sense to keep that consistent with all the other replaced elements
  24. # [01:54] <anne> i'm not sure how height= and width= would be that harmful given that <video> allows the content to be played independently from the browser
  25. # [01:54] <Hixie> you'll notice the other replaced elements don't have height/width defined yet either
  26. # [01:55] <Hixie> the point is the author shouldn't be putting half his style in the stylesheet and the other half in the content
  27. # [01:55] <Hixie> that's dumb
  28. # [01:55] <Hixie> and defeats the point of stylesheets.
  29. # [01:58] <Hixie> (height/width are on <canvas> because they define the canvas coordinate space, and on <img> to allow browsers to prevent reflows -- that's all)
  30. # [02:03] <anne> i'm not sure it's that dump for a single element on the page
  31. # [02:03] <Hixie> why not? the size of the video depends entirely on the style being used, which should be in the stylesheet.
  32. # [02:04] <Hixie> consider this -- it should be in an attribute if (a) it doesn't change based on the media or device, and (b) it would never change based on which alternative stylesheet is used.
  33. # [02:04] <Hixie> neither applies here.
  34. # [02:05] <anne> for the common case you want height=/width=
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  36. # [02:06] <Hixie> you keep saying that but i don't see why
  37. # [02:06] <Hixie> why would we need it on <video> any more than on <iframe>?
  38. # [02:06] <anne> i think you want it on both
  39. # [02:07] <Hixie> why? i've given you several arguments against, so far your argument in favour has just been that you think you want it :-)
  40. # [02:07] <Hixie> (would you also want align="" on <p>?)
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  42. # [02:08] <anne> i'd want align on <col>
  43. # [02:09] <anne> for tables with numbers
  44. # [02:10] <Hixie> given how well that works with css, that's a whole other ball game
  45. # [02:10] <Hixie> (i could see arguments for <col type=numeric> or something)
  46. # [02:10] <Hixie> (though imho UAs should just autodetect these cases)
  47. # [02:10] <Hixie> (in the no-style case)
  48. # [02:11] <anne> i think authors would be better of saying it with align than with type=numeric... but yeah, maybe
  49. # [02:12] <anne> i don't think some amount of practical presentational markup is harmful
  50. # [02:13] <anne> i'm not really convinced <video style=height:100px;width:100px> is better than <video height=100 width=100>
  51. # [02:13] <Hixie> you'll notice style="" isn't conforming either
  52. # [02:13] <Hixie> style="height:100px;width:100px" has exactly the same problems as height=100 width=100
  53. # [02:14] <Hixie> it's just a minor syntactic difference
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  55. # [02:14] <anne> <div><video></video><style scope>video { height:100px;width:100px } </style></div> then which seems even worse
  56. # [02:14] <anne> oh, I guess it's scoped= and not scope
  57. # [02:15] <Hixie> and the <style> would be before the <video>. the difference there is that at least the dimensions would end up right next to the styles that set everything else up, like the borders, background colour for the video player, etc
  58. # [02:15] <Hixie> i mean, why would you want height/width and not bgcolor=""?
  59. # [02:15] <Hixie> or would you want that too?
  60. # [02:16] <anne> bgcolor is something that can be shared across lots of pages, height/width seems something more special to the specific video
  61. # [02:16] <Hixie> ohhh, i think i see where our assumptions are differing
  62. # [02:16] <Hixie> video player dimensions don't generally differ from video to video.
  63. # [02:16] <Hixie> look at, e.g. metacafe. or youtube.
  64. # [02:17] <anne> in the case that they do, the required syntax is very annoying
  65. # [02:18] <anne> whether <style scoped> is before or after the <video> :)
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  68. # [02:18] <anne> (this applies to more than just <video> though, imo)
  69. # [02:18] <Hixie> i think it's as likely that the video dimensions will be different per page as it is likely that the style of text, controls, etc, around the video will differ per page
  70. # [02:19] <Hixie> and i don't see why two of the properties would be special cased when everything else has to go into <style> blocks.
  71. # [02:19] <Hixie> furthermore, <style> blocks are easy to extend to media-specific, device-specific, and alternative-stylesheet-specific cases, which is not the case at all for attributes.
  72. # [02:19] <Hixie> we want to encourage good authoring practices.
  73. # [02:21] <anne> that shouldn't really go at the cost of convenience though, imo
  74. # [02:21] <anne> anyway, I should go to bed
  75. # [02:22] <Hixie> i'm all for finding solutions that are convenient while being good authoring practice
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  113. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: I agree with anne about video width/height
  114. # [10:05] <mjs> what did anne say, that it should have width/height attributes?
  115. # [10:06] <hsivonen> mjs: yes, that it should have width/height for convenience, because managing a scoped style block for that is silly
  116. # [10:07] <mjs> I agree it should have height/width
  117. # [10:07] <hsivonen> FWIW, the wikipedia dev, who was prototyping <video> support, intuitively assumed that there'd be width and height
  118. # [10:07] <mjs> although bringing the style="" attribute back would reduce the benefit slightly
  119. # [10:08] <mjs> Hixie is somehow convinced that <style scoped> would lead to better authoring practices than style="" but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for this, even circumstantial
  120. # [10:09] <mjs> and the fact that <img> width/height attributes remain conforming strongly leads one to expect them for <video> as well
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  129. # [11:39] <hsivonen> hmm. seaching for duplicates on the issue tracker takes more time than I'd like :-(
  130. # [11:39] <hsivonen> hmm. my issue seems to be a duplicate
  131. # [11:39] <hsivonen> oh well
  132. # [11:41] <anne> maybe someone should implement a search function?
  133. # [11:43] <hsivonen> Philip: <a href='...' rel='next'>Next</a> would be super-useful when reading through a list of messages in an issue tracker folder
  134. # [11:44] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/expand and ctrl+F?
  135. # [11:44] <hsivonen> ooh!
  136. # [11:44] <Philip> (Takes a while to load...)
  137. # [11:44] <hsivonen> Philip: thanks
  138. # [11:45] <hsivonen> I suppose I should have found this from robots.txt :-)
  139. # [11:46] <Philip> hsivonen: A message can be in multiple folders, so there's not a simple message_id -> next_message_id mapping, so I think that wouldn't be possible with the way my code is currently set up
  140. # [11:46] <hsivonen> FWIW, my issue would have been that cite='' should be subjected to the kind of scrutiny that longdesc='' has been subjected to
  141. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Philip: ok
  142. # [11:46] <hsivonen> Philip: expand plus client-side search works for me
  143. # [11:46] <Philip> but the folders link to e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder_expand/WF2 which shows all the messages from that folder anyway, which seems an easier way of going through the list
  144. # [11:47] <Philip> (and that's far less inefficient than the global /expand)
  145. # [11:48] <Philip> Hmm, the last line in robots.txt looks wrong
  146. # [11:49] * Philip fixes
  147. # [11:59] <hsivonen> okay, time to implement <dialog>
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  156. # [13:53] <hsivonen> are the type and media attributes on <a> known to solve a real problem in real software?
  157. # [13:54] <hsivonen> what about hreflang?
  158. # [13:59] <zcorpan_> styling hooks
  159. # [14:01] <hsivonen> ok.
  160. # [14:01] <hsivonen> (though styling hooks are a bad excuse in general)
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  164. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> yeah
  165. # [14:07] <zcorpan_> they are useful on <link>, so being consistent with <a> is nice and might be useful for styling :)
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  169. # [14:42] <hendry> hsivonen: when i go back from validating a page in validator.nu the validate button is disabled until a refresh (firefox 2.0.0.6)
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  175. # [15:27] * zcorpan_ updated his aria spec to remove support for aria-foo on svg elements
  176. # [15:35] <shepazu> zcorpan_, it also won't work on XHTML elements...
  177. # [15:38] <zcorpan_> shepazu: ?
  178. # [15:38] <zcorpan_> why not?
  179. # [15:40] <shepazu> well, AIUI, XHTML1.1 is an XML syntax, and that kind of "vendor-prefix" syntax isn't allowed (that's from CSS, not from XML)
  180. # [15:40] <hsivonen> hendry: that's a known problem. I don't know how to fix it and still get the benefits of disabling stuff in the onsubmit handler
  181. # [15:40] <hsivonen> hendry: is there an event that fires when the page reappears after Back?
  182. # [15:40] <zcorpan_> shepazu: <foo bar-baz=""/> is perfectly ok XML
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  184. # [15:41] <shepazu> now, it could be defined to work in HTML 5, probably, but that means that the content from HTML5/xml wouldn't validate in XHTML1.1 UAs
  185. # [15:41] <hsivonen> shepazu: are there any XHTML 1.1 UAs?
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  187. # [15:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: if there are, are there any that validate?
  188. # [15:42] <hsivonen> shepazu: and how would the aaa: stuff validate any better?
  189. # [15:42] <hendry> hsivonen: an event? no idea
  190. # [15:42] <shepazu> yes, validators and XSL processors, for example
  191. # [15:42] <shepazu> UA != browser
  192. # [15:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: I think it isn't useful to design stuff on the premise that new stuff doesn't validate in legacy validators
  193. # [15:43] <hsivonen> shepazu: you could never introduce anything new
  194. # [15:43] <hendry> hsivonen: does html5 need a doctype? i thought it didn't for some reason? http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fplugin.webvm.net%2F2%2F
  195. # [15:43] <shepazu> I've had this argument about the HTML5 methodology
  196. # [15:44] <hsivonen> hendry: text/html does. a/x+x doesn't
  197. # [15:44] <hsivonen> afk
  198. # [15:44] <hendry> hsivonen: a/x+x?
  199. # [15:44] <zcorpan_> xml
  200. # [15:44] <hsivonen> hendry: application/xhtml+xml
  201. # [15:44] <hsivonen> really afk now
  202. # [15:44] <hendry> wha... :) i hate xml :)
  203. # [15:45] <shepazu> but I'm not prepared to argue about it right now, I have work to do... consult wiser heads than mine, zcorpan_
  204. # [15:45] <zcorpan_> ok
  205. # [15:45] <hendry> I guess I need a <!DOCTYPE HTML SYSTEM> when serving text/htmlk
  206. # [15:46] <zcorpan_> s/ SYSTEM//
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  208. # [15:46] <hendry> no SYSTEM? I don't even know what SYSTEM means here. Can someone remind me?
  209. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> it's a keyword that means that the declaration has no FPI
  210. # [15:47] * hendry grimaces and wonder what is FPI
  211. # [15:47] <zcorpan_> e.g. -//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN
  212. # [15:49] <hendry> thanks
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  218. # [16:07] <anne> zcorpan_, why did you remove aria-* for SVG?
  219. # [16:07] <anne> that doesn't seem at all useful
  220. # [16:09] <zcorpan_> anne: the svg wg don't want to have aria-* in svg, it seems
  221. # [16:09] * anne sighs
  222. # [16:10] * zcorpan_ reads http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-svg-minutes.html
  223. # [16:21] <anne> hmm, spec lawyering
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  231. # [16:54] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I was about to suggest aria-* for SVG :-/
  232. # [16:56] * anne did that a week back
  233. # [16:56] <anne> seems that the SVG guys care more about consistency with validation tools than with HTML
  234. # [16:56] <anne> beats me
  235. # [16:58] <hsivonen> what validation tools allow aaa:foo but don't allow aria-foo?
  236. # [16:59] <hsivonen> do they have an NVDL splitter that allows anything as long as it is in a foreign namespace?
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  238. # [17:02] <anne> maybe they allow namespaced attributes by default? Atom does that, for instance
  239. # [17:02] <anne> I've no idea why Atom does that, it doesn't make sense to me at all, but that's how some people think architecture works
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  241. # [17:05] <hsivonen> anne: yeah, but Atom validation tools are abnormal
  242. # [17:22] <hsivonen> well, I sent email anyway
  243. # [17:23] <anne> I guess the SVG WG just has a different vision on how the Web should work
  244. # [17:24] <gsnedders> anne: do they define error handling (above the XML level, for things like out-of-viewbox issues)? :P
  245. # [17:24] <anne> they actually define some error handling, although things are not as clear as they could be
  246. # [17:25] * gsnedders has such a sore arm today from so many tests
  247. # [17:25] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2007OctDec/0062.html
  248. # [17:27] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: makes you go "hmm"
  249. # [17:27] <anne> that's weird
  250. # [17:27] <anne> too bad the SVG WG operates Member-only
  251. # [17:28] <zcorpan_> "... I don't see how we could do number 1, because we'd have to add many attributes to the relaxNG" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-svg-minutes.html
  252. # [17:28] <hsivonen> aargh.
  253. # [17:31] <hsivonen> If you want to validate aaa:foo with RNG, you need to have in RNG anyway.
  254. # [17:31] <anne> not if you have have someattribute, any-uri:*
  255. # [17:31] <anne> (syntax may be inaccurate)
  256. # [17:31] <hsivonen> well, then you leave those unvalidated
  257. # [17:32] <hsivonen> if you want to validate stuff, you validate it no matter where
  258. # [17:32] <hsivonen> if aaa:* makes a difference, it's because you drop something on the floor based on namespace
  259. # [17:33] <anne> can you maybe reuse aaa|* definitions but not |* definitions?
  260. # [17:37] <anne> but even if it makes it harder to write RNG that shouldn't be an excuse to make it harder for authors imo
  261. # [17:38] <anne> that's just plain silly and puts the burdon on the wrong people
  262. # [17:38] <zcorpan_> one guy can write the schema once
  263. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> whereas there will be many authors who will use the attributes many times
  264. # [17:39] <zcorpan_> so indeed
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  270. # [18:40] * anne bookes his ticket to Boston
  271. # [18:40] * anne will arrive the 3rd around 18:00
  272. # [18:46] <anne> fun: Total journey time: "[Ljava.lang.Object;@3adf6f3a hours {1} minutes Operated by [Ljava.lang.Object;@3aa3ef3a"
  273. # [18:46] <anne> oops, "Total journey time: [Ljava.lang.Object;@3adf6f3a hours {1} minutes
  274. # [18:46] <anne> Operated by [Ljava.lang.Object;@3aa3ef3a"
  275. # [18:47] <anne> (oh I see, that's only for the text/plain variant)
  276. # [18:47] * anne ponders
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  283. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> WebKit now on Windows Mobile:
  284. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> http://lists.macosforge.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2007-October/002572.html
  285. # [19:11] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@129.33.1.37) (Connection reset by peer)
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  287. # [19:18] <mjs> there's a lot of mobile browsers based on WebKit
  288. # [19:18] <mjs> I need to make a list
  289. # [19:18] <mjs> that port did not look very complete though
  290. # [19:25] <MikeSmith> mjs - and even a complete port is first step. getting it tested and pre-installed on shipping OEM production devices takes a lot more steps...
  291. # [19:27] * Quits: Yudai (Yudai@211.128.41.224) (Ping timeout)
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  298. # [19:56] * shepazu catches up on backlog
  299. # [19:58] <shepazu> the problem with having to change the schema is that without a mechanism for extensibility, the possible set of combinations is going to be bounded by a single source, the schema writer
  300. # [19:59] <shepazu> with namespaces, the author (and the UA) is free to create custom extensions that were never anticipated by the writer of the schema
  301. # [20:15] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  302. # [20:18] <anne> so 1) i'm not sure how custom extensions are good for the web and 2) we're designing a language for humans, not schema writers
  303. # [20:25] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.11)
  304. # [20:33] <shepazu> anne: 1) then educate yourself and 2) read what I said, and answer your own question. It's not about the schema writers, it's about authors being able to do what they want *without* the schema writers
  305. # [20:37] <anne> that's not much of an answre
  306. # [20:37] <anne> answer, even
  307. # [20:37] <shepazu> it wasn't much of a question
  308. # [20:39] <shepazu> anne, we've talked about this before, and I think you know the answers to the questions you've posed
  309. # [20:40] <shepazu> I cannot see why you would want to limit authors to a preset set of combinations of languages, nor prevent them from adding their own custom attributes (for metadata, for example)
  310. # [20:40] <anne> sorry, no, there's no indication anywhere that I'm aware of that shows that extensibility using namespaces is great for authors in general
  311. # [20:40] <anne> because it's better that authors author content that users can consume, in the general case
  312. # [20:41] <shepazu> for myself, within a year or so of starting to use JS, I was using namespaces and very glad to have them
  313. # [20:41] <shepazu> and I don't think I was an expert author at that time, but it still wasn't hard to grasp
  314. # [20:41] <shepazu> now, as a slightly more advanced author, I still really like them, for the same reasons and more
  315. # [20:42] <shepazu> you've yet to convince me that they aren't a good idea
  316. # [20:44] <shepazu> dropping content that a UA doesn't understand is a reasonable fallback for non-ns content extensions, but it would be even better if the UA knew what to do with that content, which is what namespaces provide
  317. # [20:44] * Joins: Steve_f (chatzilla@82.44.69.8)
  318. # [20:44] <anne> that there's need for namespaces in JS doesn't mean there's need for namespaces in HTML/SVG
  319. # [20:45] <shepazu> sorry, didn't follow
  320. # [20:45] * anne -> cooking
  321. # [20:45] <shepazu> I mean, the namespaces I was using were in HTML/SVG, not in the script
  322. # [20:46] <shepazu> setting custom attributes that let me add notations and parameters to specific elements that didn't render, but which I could use
  323. # [20:47] * shepazu wrote a very nice X-bar syntax visualizer with dual notations for SVG and for linguistic content :)
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  330. # [21:17] <hsivonen> shepazu: I don't see why schema writers wouldn't catch up with language changes
  331. # [21:17] <shepazu> hsivonen, let me explain
  332. # [21:17] <hsivonen> shepazu: that is, adding ARIA in the W3C is rather different from an author adding his/her custom stuff and not bothering to update a schema
  333. # [21:18] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  334. # [21:18] <shepazu> consider a mapping application, where the user wants to set, say, coordinate or altitude information on certain elements, for use in their own script lib
  335. # [21:19] <shepazu> they may or may not have a schema for those attributes, doesn't matter
  336. # [21:19] <shepazu> though it's better if they do, because that way they can validate their own custom content, too
  337. # [21:20] <shepazu> with namespaces, the writer of the original schema (say, SVG) doesn't have to make any changes
  338. # [21:20] <shepazu> it's built-in
  339. # [21:21] <shepazu> and if other people like this approach, and want to use the same schema, they can
  340. # [21:21] <shepazu> and they can validate their content too
  341. # [21:21] <shepazu> but I'm not telling you anything you don't know
  342. # [21:21] <shepazu> and I have lots of work to do today
  343. # [21:22] <shepazu> maybe we can debate it another day
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  347. # [21:44] * anne can't find much about '"poster frame" theora'
  348. # [21:47] <anne> maybe it's part of the container format
  349. # [21:49] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.11) (Quit: mjs)
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  351. # [21:49] <mjs> I dunno if ogg supports it at all
  352. # [21:50] <hsivonen> shepazu: Actually, I don't know whether schemata produced by the SVG WG have a wild card for foreign namespaces.
  353. # [21:52] <anne> mjs, if it has such a feature it's well hidden
  354. # [21:52] <hsivonen> shepazu: fwiw, the way I hedge my RELAX NG bets against the possibility of HTML5 introducing a non-xmlns private attribute prefix is that I make sure I have the capability to filter the infoset between the parser and the RNG engine
  355. # [21:58] * anne can't really find much about "poster frame" in general
  356. # [21:59] <anne> except when you add "mpeg"
  357. # [22:00] <hsivonen> anne: there's UI for poster frame in the view menu in the Pro-enabled version of QuickTime Player
  358. # [22:01] * anne has Ubuntu as OS for now
  359. # [22:01] <mjs> anne: QuickTime (and I believe MPEG-4) definitely supports it
  360. # [22:02] <anne> mjs, oh, I believe that
  361. # [22:02] <Philip> Does it store an actual image in the video file, or does it just point to a frame number? (If the latter, I expect it'd involve quite a lot of downloading and re-downloading to get all the headers and the previous frames up to the last keyframe, which sounds like a pain)
  362. # [22:02] <gsnedders> Philip: IIRC it stores it as the first frame (in the sequence)
  363. # [22:03] <mjs> ogg certainly could (and probably should) support it
  364. # [22:03] <mjs> Philip: I believe it is possible to have a poster frame that is not part of the normal video play sequence
  365. # [22:03] <mjs> Philip: not 100% sure though
  366. # [22:05] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  367. # [22:06] <hsivonen> mjs: the QuickTime UI model does assume that the poster frame is a frame that you can navigate to on the time track
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  371. # [22:52] * DanC swaps in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 for an update...
  372. # [22:53] <DanC> eek... 2007/08/16 is quite a bit more than 2 weeks ago
  373. # [23:02] <DanC> care and feeding of http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews continues
  374. # [23:02] <DanC> I should add my review of the introduction
  375. # [23:02] <DanC> and perhaps fielding's review of "Determining the type of a new resource in a browsing context"
  376. # [23:18] <jgraham> DanC: Are we expected to update that page when we do something that could be considered a detailed review?
  377. # [23:19] * jgraham had forgotten about its existence
  378. # [23:19] <DanC> well, sorta; the target is that it documents reviews of each section by at least 2 WG members
  379. # [23:19] <DanC> once it shows that ?WHO has done a review of ?SECTION, further updates about ?WHO and ?SECTION aren't really essential
  380. # [23:21] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  381. # [23:24] <DanC> ok, let's see where we are on toward release of Design Principles ...
  382. # [23:25] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  383. # [23:28] <DanC> $Revision: 1.9 $ of $Date: 2007-09-14 09:44:18 $
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  388. # Session Close: Thu Oct 11 00:00:00 2007

The end :)