/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-11 / end

Options:

  1. # Session Start: Thu Oct 11 00:00:01 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:03] * Quits: kingryan_ (rking3@208.66.64.47) (Client exited)
  4. # [00:04] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  5. # [00:08] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  6. # [00:19] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47) (Quit: kingryan)
  7. # [00:19] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  8. # [00:29] * DanC saves http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 1.49 ; hopes to sync with Chris W soon
  9. # [00:29] * Quits: heycam (cam@203.214.114.92) (Quit: bye)
  10. # [00:37] <anne> SMIL 3, fun
  11. # [00:38] <anne> oh, even more namespaces
  12. # [00:38] <DanC> I read more than the section heading today; I think there's not much overlap between SMIL 3 state and HTML after all
  13. # [00:39] <anne> SMIL is terrible
  14. # [00:39] <DanC> yes, I'm tracking Simon's comment on namespaces
  15. # [00:41] <anne> I hope browsers will never implement more than the bit that SVG has integrated
  16. # [00:41] <anne> (and even that's painful)
  17. # [00:47] <jgraham> I do wonder where the notion that declarative solutions are always easier than scripting comes from
  18. # [00:47] * DanC gets a pong from Chris W re chairing tomorrow. he's on.
  19. # [00:49] <DanC> I don't think anybody said "always", but http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/leastPower.html makes a pretty good argument that scripting should be avoided in most cases
  20. # [00:49] <DanC> "most" might even be too strong
  21. # [00:49] <DanC> if HTML were turing complete like postscript and TeX, I think we'd all be a lot worse off
  22. # [00:50] <kingryan> DanC: least power isn't the only principle at play here
  23. # [00:50] <kingryan> there's also the babel problem and the vocabulary size problem
  24. # [00:50] <anne> DanC, for parsing I think everyone agrees
  25. # [00:52] <DanC> the vocabulary size problem seems like pretty much the same thing as the least power issue. i.e. if there's no manageable declarative vocabulary, then you're stuck with scripting
  26. # [00:52] <kingryan> my point is that if you want to do everything declaratively, you have to create vocabulary for everything
  27. # [00:53] <DanC> can we take "everything" out of the discussion?
  28. # [00:53] <kingryan> which is unmanageable to implement, so there's some point at which it costs more to implement the declarative vocabulary
  29. # [00:53] <kingryan> sorry
  30. # [00:53] <kingryan> s/everything/feature X/
  31. # [00:54] <DanC> yes, the SMIL hypothesis is that there's a mangeable vocabulary for synchroinzed multimedia integration. It's arguably false.
  32. # [00:54] <kingryan> if few people use feature X, it might not be worth the cost of implementers to provide declarative syntax for it
  33. # [00:54] <mjs> the problem is that if SMIL adds too much power then it is just a scripting language with difficult syntax
  34. # [00:54] <kingryan> I'm only arguing that least power doesn't always apply
  35. # [00:54] <mjs> XSLT is basically there already
  36. # [00:54] <anne> yeah, XSLT is turing complete
  37. # [00:54] <DanC> flash is turing complete, though I wonder... do flash authors usually write programs, or do they choose from menus and such?
  38. # [00:55] <jgraham> Indeed XML syntax makes the problem worse
  39. # [00:55] <mjs> flash authors definitely write programs
  40. # [00:55] <DanC> XSLT is certainly scripting, though somehow it gets sold as easier than Java. go figure.
  41. # [00:55] <anne> same for the XForms scripting markup
  42. # [00:55] <mjs> but they have tools to help them build the UI
  43. # [00:55] <mjs> XSLT is way harder to use than a dumb text processing perl script, though it may give you better odds that the output is well-formed
  44. # [00:56] <jgraham> XSLT is also (in my limited experience) hard compared to Python+Genshi which can ensure well-formed output
  45. # [00:57] <DanC> W3C used to sorta say "we don't do programming languages". then we did XSLT, under the guise of "it's not a general purpose programmingn language; it's just for transformations for style". then even that went out the window with XSLT 2. it's an unabashed programming language
  46. # [00:57] <kingryan> xslt is also harder than javascript + some libraries that help with building markup
  47. # [00:57] <anne> XSLT 1 is turing complete already
  48. # [00:57] <DanC> yup
  49. # [00:58] <DanC> I'm constantly surprised when people tell me (mostly 2nd hand) "I can't write programs, but I can write XSLT". as I say, go figure.
  50. # [00:59] <DanC> python+genshi rocks. I get quite a bit done with XSLT too, though.
  51. # [00:59] <DanC> if I had learned javascript earlier, I might use it a lot more than XSLT.
  52. # [01:00] <mjs> so anyway, once you have variables, mutation and state, it's hard to argue you're not a scripting language
  53. # [01:01] <jgraham> Hmm. The rule of least power document is interesting but I think not quite compelling. The real message seems to be "formats where information suitable for reuse can be extracted are good"
  54. # [01:01] <DanC> nobody who knows what they're talking about argues that XSLT 1 isn't turing complete or that it's not a scripting language; but I get reports that people think they can do XSLT but they can't program.
  55. # [01:02] <DanC> yes, jgraham , and the halting problem says that scripting languages are arbitrarily hard to reuse
  56. # [01:03] <jgraham> Sure. But usually it's data that you're interested in reusing
  57. # [01:03] <DanC> not in the case of document formats like TeX and postscript.
  58. # [01:04] <DanC> the point of the least power finding could be phrased as "don't hide your data inside programs"
  59. # [01:04] <DanC> TeX and postscript and flash, I guess.
  60. # [01:05] <jgraham> Well LaTeX isn't so hard to reuse. Sure it might be easier if it were less powerful but the language would also be less compelling.
  61. # [01:05] <DanC> LaTeX is not hard to reuse? are you speaking from experience?
  62. # [01:06] <jgraham> Well I've used LaTeX and I've reused other people's LaTeX...
  63. # [01:06] <DanC> have you ever looked at latex2html.pl? just thinking about it gives me shivers.
  64. # [01:06] <DanC> I don't mean manual copy-and-paste reuse; I mean reuse by programs
  65. # [01:06] <jgraham> No. OTOH, conversion of LaTeX to HTML is hard because HTML is feature-poor compared to LaTeX
  66. # [01:07] <jgraham> (it is, admittedly much harder because people can program their own macros)
  67. # [01:08] * DanC is late for dinner...
  68. # [01:08] <DanC> hasta.
  69. # [01:10] * Joins: sbuluf (bcnkia@200.49.140.137)
  70. # [01:15] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  71. # [01:17] <jgraham> I think my point of view is much more human-authoring focussed than machine-parsing focussed. Obviously if your view is based around how easy it is for machines to parse out data then then something like the rule of least power makes a lot of sense
  72. # [01:20] <jgraham> OTOH, I see people use LaTeX every day and really care about minutiae like how adjacent equations line up. LaTeX is good for that sort of thing because experts can write macros that can be used trivially by everyone else to get the exact effect that they want
  73. # [01:21] <jgraham> So the question, in that case is: would a less powerful language be just as popular or would it be replaced by a more powerful one?
  74. # [01:24] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.2.12) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  75. # [01:24] * Joins: mjs_ (mjs@17.203.14.209)
  76. # [01:26] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.98.11) (Ping timeout)
  77. # [01:28] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  78. # [01:28] <anne> jgraham, HTML hasn't been replaced yet
  79. # [01:28] <anne> then again, it "features" JS for complex stuff
  80. # [01:28] <jgraham> anne: ?
  81. # [01:28] <jgraham> Who suggested replacing HTML?
  82. # [01:28] <jgraham> Oh I see
  83. # [01:29] <anne> :)
  84. # [01:29] <jgraham> Yeah, it quickly grew Turing completeness
  85. # [01:30] <anne> this seems to be a positive thing, although it might have been better if tokenizer character insertion was left out
  86. # [01:30] <anne> (XForms Actions is the XForms programming language btw)
  87. # [01:30] * anne just remembered
  88. # [01:32] <jgraham> Oddly enough javascript is one method people are using to replicate LaTeX maths features in HTML
  89. # [01:33] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  90. # [01:36] * jgraham should be asleep
  91. # [01:36] <anne> might be a good idea
  92. # [01:37] <anne> it's not that late yet in the UK though
  93. # [01:37] <anne> well less late than here :)
  94. # [01:40] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  95. # [02:03] <anne> nice, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=296904 is RESOLVED FIXED
  96. # [02:03] <anne> one interop issue less
  97. # [02:11] * Quits: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47) (Quit: kingryan)
  98. # [02:16] <mjs_> nice!
  99. # [02:18] * mjs_ is now known as mjs
  100. # [02:20] * Philip thanks whoever it was on #developers who suggested writing a reftest
  101. # [02:20] <Philip> (Seems to be the first automated canvas test in Mozilla, as far as I can see)
  102. # [02:24] <mjs> WebKit has a bunch of canvas tests
  103. # [02:24] <mjs> they might be handy to steal for future moz patches
  104. # [02:26] <Philip> Not sure if they'd work trivially in the reftest framework, since I think(?) the WebKit ones are all <canvas> vs PNG comparison, whereas Mozilla wants <canvas> vs HTML
  105. # [02:27] <Philip> but it could be useful even if it takes a little effort
  106. # [02:28] <mjs> they would not work trivially, but they would be useful starting points
  107. # [02:28] <Hixie> only 4 e-mails left in my offline-webapps folder!
  108. # [02:28] <mjs> we have other tests where the PNG comparison is not essential to its usefulness
  109. # [02:28] * mjs needs to schedule time to re-review it
  110. # [02:28] * mjs also needs to comment on some of the comments about the SQL API
  111. # [02:28] <Hixie> unfortunately they're the four written after i wrote up the spec, so they're the ones that'll have many problems for me
  112. # [02:28] <Hixie> sql is probably next on my list
  113. # [02:29] <Hixie> (as in, tomorrow or friday)
  114. # [02:30] <Hixie> i'm renaming application="" to manifest=""
  115. # [02:33] <mjs> I kind of liked the cuteness of saying <html application=...
  116. # [02:33] <mjs> but menifest="" is admittedly a bit more accurate
  117. # [02:33] <mjs> (though not as precise as, say, offlinecachemanifest)
  118. # [02:34] <Hixie> yeah i liked the cuteness too
  119. # [02:34] <Hixie> but sadly cuteness does not a good API make
  120. # [02:35] <Hixie> oh hey
  121. # [02:35] <Hixie> <html manifest> makes it impossible to have URIs only be after <base>
  122. # [02:35] <Hixie> well crap.
  123. # [02:46] <mjs> you could require it to be an absolute URI maybe
  124. # [02:47] <Hixie> relative is fine
  125. # [02:47] <Hixie> it just won't be relative to <base>
  126. # [03:19] * Quits: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241) (Quit: 8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.)
  127. # [03:35] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  128. # [03:38] * Joins: DougJ (djones4@74.76.28.112)
  129. # [03:40] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  130. # [03:45] * Joins: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30)
  131. # [03:54] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  132. # [03:57] * Quits: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65) (Ping timeout)
  133. # [04:02] * Parts: DougJ (djones4@74.76.28.112)
  134. # [04:21] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  135. # [04:56] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.209) (Quit: mjs)
  136. # [04:59] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  137. # [05:21] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.209)
  138. # [05:28] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@209.6.168.245) (Client exited)
  139. # [05:41] * Joins: heycam (cam@203.214.114.92)
  140. # [05:43] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  141. # [05:48] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  142. # [05:48] * Quits: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115) (Ping timeout)
  143. # [06:03] * Joins: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115)
  144. # [06:20] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.203.14.209) (Ping timeout)
  145. # [06:50] * Quits: hober (ted@68.107.112.172) (Ping timeout)
  146. # [06:59] * Quits: hendry (hendry@89.16.172.32) (Ping timeout)
  147. # [06:59] * Joins: hendry (hendry@89.16.172.32)
  148. # [07:12] * Quits: Thezilch (fuz007@68.52.119.203) (Ping timeout)
  149. # [07:15] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  150. # [07:19] * Joins: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org)
  151. # [07:49] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  152. # [07:54] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  153. # [08:03] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  154. # [08:29] * Joins: Thezilch (fuz007@68.52.119.203)
  155. # [08:57] * Joins: Lionheart (robin@66.57.69.65)
  156. # [09:24] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  157. # [09:26] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  158. # [09:36] * Quits: Thezilch (fuz007@68.52.119.203) (Ping timeout)
  159. # [09:40] * Joins: Thezilch (fuz007@68.52.119.203)
  160. # [09:57] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  161. #
  162. # Session Start: Thu Oct 11 14:36:49 2007
  163. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  164. # [14:36] * Now talking in #html-wg
  165. # [14:36] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  166. # [14:36] * Set by DanC on Thu Sep 06 23:39:27
  167. # [14:36] * Quits: MikeSmith (MikeSmith@mcclure.w3.org) (Quit: Less talk, more pimp walk.)
  168. # [14:39] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  169. # [14:43] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  170. # [14:43] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  171. # [14:48] * Disconnected
  172. # Session Close: Thu Oct 11 14:48:39 2007
  173. #
  174. # Session Start: Thu Oct 11 14:49:34 2007
  175. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  176. # [14:49] * Now talking in #html-wg
  177. # [14:49] * Topic is 'HTML WG http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ also logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/'
  178. # [14:49] * Set by DanC on Thu Sep 06 23:39:27
  179. # [14:50] * Joins: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178)
  180. # [14:53] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  181. # [14:59] * Quits: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217) (Quit: paullewis)
  182. # [15:02] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
  183. # [15:03] * Quits: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178) (Quit: Leaving...)
  184. # [15:06] * Joins: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178)
  185. # [15:06] * Quits: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217) (Connection reset by peer)
  186. # [15:06] * Joins: paullewis (paullewis@82.242.109.217)
  187. # [15:16] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.31.86.217)
  188. # [15:17] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  189. # [15:19] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  190. # [15:19] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  191. # [15:36] * Quits: olivier (ot@128.30.52.30) (Quit: Leaving)
  192. # [16:15] * Quits: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178) (Ping timeout)
  193. # [16:20] * Joins: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178)
  194. # [16:21] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  195. # [16:26] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  196. # [16:46] * Joins: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175)
  197. # [16:46] * Quits: polin8 (polin8@75.71.72.175) (Quit: :wq)
  198. # [16:46] * Quits: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.131) (Quit: gsnedders)
  199. # [17:02] * Quits: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115) (Ping timeout)
  200. # [17:08] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  201. # [17:08] * Joins: gsnedders (gsnedders@86.145.188.131)
  202. # [17:09] * Joins: matt (matt@128.30.52.30)
  203. # [17:14] <anne> zcorpan_, you forgot <img ismap>
  204. # [17:15] <zcorpan_> anne: you want <a href><img ismap></a>
  205. # [17:16] <anne> hmm, duh
  206. # [17:16] <hsivonen> in fact, <a href> is even *required* with ismap :-)
  207. # [17:21] <anne> plug: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/an-html5-style-google-suggest/
  208. # [17:46] * Quits: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22) (Quit: Leaving)
  209. # [17:50] * Joins: Lachy (Lachy@213.236.208.22)
  210. # [18:26] * Quits: myakura (myakura@124.87.254.178) (Quit: Leaving...)
  211. # [18:28] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  212. # [18:34] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  213. # [19:17] * Quits: emeriste (emeriste@69.22.229.84) (Ping timeout)
  214. # [19:23] * Joins: emeriste (emeriste@69.22.229.84)
  215. # [19:42] * Joins: kingryan (rking3@208.66.64.47)
  216. # [19:44] <zcorpan_> aha! http://www.w3.org/mid/18190.24017.963412.628088@retriever.corp.google.com
  217. # [19:46] <shepazu> interesting... that's a little different than a list of CURIEs with multiple values that should be honored
  218. # [19:47] <zcorpan_> indeed
  219. # [19:47] <zcorpan_> the fallback idea makes a lot of sense to me
  220. # [19:47] <shepazu> (though not incompatible with a list of CURIEs where the first one available is honored)
  221. # [19:48] <shepazu> honoring multiples, where one is a fallback for another, is tricker to negotiate
  222. # [19:50] <shepazu> so, role="fancyButton button listItem" is not clear... should button be a fallback for fancyButton? how can you tell they are related? should listItem be honored?
  223. # [19:50] <shepazu> can you have a fancyButton listItem?
  224. # [19:50] <shepazu> fallback and multiple inheritance may conflict... that needs to be resolved
  225. # [19:50] <shepazu> 2 different goals
  226. # [19:51] <shepazu> could do multiple inheritance with nesting...
  227. # [19:52] <shepazu> it seems that in the Role spec, they decided that multiple inheritance was more important, but I wonder if they consciously excluded fallbacks?
  228. # [19:52] <shepazu> or if it was an oversight?
  229. # [19:56] <zcorpan_> not sure i follow
  230. # [19:56] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  231. # [19:56] <shepazu> there are 2 different reasons you might have a list:
  232. # [19:57] <shepazu> 1) you want to provide a list of alternatives (in fallback order)... "pick one that you support, then stop"
  233. # [19:59] <shepazu> 2) you want to provide a list of all possible combinations (probably unordered)... "this is an dropdown and a tree and a checkbox control"
  234. # [19:59] <shepazu> your spec (and Raman's original proposal) were for 1)
  235. # [19:59] <zcorpan_> yeah, but my spec is not incompatible with 2
  236. # [19:59] <shepazu> the Role spec seems to indicate 2)
  237. # [20:00] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  238. # [20:01] <zcorpan_> "If token is a supported custom role *that is supposed to map to an accessibility API*, then return token and abort these steps."
  239. # [20:01] <shepazu> but if the UA doesn't know all the possible options, or if the options themselves don't have implicit relations, it can't know that it shouldn't combine 2 (one of which is meant as the fallback for the other)
  240. # [20:02] <shepazu> but the accessibility API might not be discrete (I could be wrong here)
  241. # [20:02] <zcorpan_> i don't see the problem
  242. # [20:02] <shepazu> maybe ARIA already breaks it down
  243. # [20:02] <zcorpan_> all unknown tokens would be ignored
  244. # [20:02] <zcorpan_> if the UA supports a custom role and it knows it maps to an accessibility API, then that is used
  245. # [20:03] <shepazu> but what if it does know both fancyButton and button, and they are mutually incompatible, and it tries to supply both?
  246. # [20:03] <shepazu> s/supply/apply/
  247. # [20:03] <zcorpan_> if it doesn't fancyButton then fancyButton is ignored
  248. # [20:03] <shepazu> right...
  249. # [20:04] <shepazu> what if it does know fancyButton?
  250. # [20:04] <zcorpan_> then it uses fancyButton
  251. # [20:04] <shepazu> *and* button?
  252. # [20:04] <zcorpan_> no
  253. # [20:04] <shepazu> then it's not compatible with (2)
  254. # [20:04] <shepazu> which is the Role spec (AFAICT)
  255. # [20:04] <zcorpan_> (2) can be implemented separately
  256. # [20:04] <shepazu> how?
  257. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> e.g. by processing the value a second time
  258. # [20:05] <shepazu> what if an element needs 2 different accessibility tokens?
  259. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> which ignores supported roles that map to accessibility API
  260. # [20:05] <shepazu> it's both a list and a checkbox
  261. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> use case?
  262. # [20:06] <shepazu> (that's a very common control)
  263. # [20:06] <zcorpan_> oh?
  264. # [20:06] <shepazu> it's available in dojo
  265. # [20:06] <zcorpan_> pointer?
  266. # [20:06] <shepazu> also, trees that are checkboxes
  267. # [20:06] <zcorpan_> not checkbox *in* a list or tree?
  268. # [20:06] <shepazu> I don't have a pointer, but I've used both of those
  269. # [20:07] <shepazu> ok, yeah... maybe nesting gets you that
  270. # [20:07] <zcorpan_> aiui, current accessibility API don't support multiple roles on the same object
  271. # [20:07] <shepazu> you may be right
  272. # [20:07] <shepazu> in which case, you're right, there's no problem
  273. # [20:08] <shepazu> :)
  274. # [20:08] <zcorpan_> :)
  275. # [20:08] <shepazu> (except that I'm starving atm)
  276. # [20:08] <shepazu> brb
  277. # [20:13] <shepazu> I'm not opposed at all to your approach, I just have to play devil's advocate to think things through, make sure we're not missing something
  278. # [20:25] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  279. # [20:27] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  280. # [20:36] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  281. # [20:41] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  282. # [20:46] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  283. # [20:53] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  284. # [21:06] <shepazu> and when i reviewed ARIA a while back, it still seemed far away from implementation to me, so it was more abstract :)
  285. # [21:21] <zcorpan_> shepazu: about aria and schemas, we discussed that earlier; unfortunately it seems krijnh's logger was down then
  286. # [21:21] <shepazu> earlier today?
  287. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> yeah
  288. # [21:23] <shepazu> ok, I have it in my backlog
  289. # [21:23] <shepazu> thanks for the pointer
  290. # [21:23] <shepazu> bit busy atm, but I'll read it later
  291. # [21:23] <zcorpan_> ok
  292. # [21:36] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  293. # [21:55] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.111.81)
  294. # [22:02] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@88.131.66.80) (Ping timeout)
  295. # [22:16] * Joins: s-mon (simon@128.30.52.30)
  296. # [22:22] * Parts: s-mon (simon@128.30.52.30) (bye)
  297. # [22:30] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  298. # [22:44] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20) (Ping timeout)
  299. # [22:46] * Joins: marcos__ (chatzilla@131.181.148.226)
  300. # [22:46] * Quits: marcos (chatzilla@131.181.148.226) (Connection reset by peer)
  301. # [22:46] * marcos__ is now known as marcos
  302. # [22:49] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  303. # [22:58] * Quits: hober (ted@68.107.112.172) (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs))
  304. # [23:00] * Quits: Sander (svl@86.87.68.167) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  305. # [23:15] <hendry> how do I figure out Pacfic time in IRC I wonder
  306. # [23:16] <Philip> You could ask out loud in IRC and hope somebody responds who actually knows the answer to your question :-)
  307. # [23:18] <Philip> (If 4pm PT is 23:00Z then that's about 1.75 hours from now)
  308. # [23:21] <kingryan> 2007-10-11T14:20:15 < pacific time
  309. # [23:21] <kingryan> s/</=/
  310. # [23:23] <hendry> I am wondering what the correct TZ code is
  311. # [23:23] <Hixie> PDT, at the moment
  312. # [23:24] <Hixie> iirc
  313. # [23:24] <Hixie> google and the web know the answers
  314. # [23:24] <Hixie> http://www.google.com/search?q=time+in+san+francisco
  315. # [23:25] <hendry> nox:~% TZ=America/Los_Angeles date
  316. # [23:25] <hendry> Thu Oct 11 14:23:55 PDT 2007
  317. # [23:25] <hendry> nox:~% TZ=PDT date
  318. # [23:25] <hendry> Thu Oct 11 21:24:01 UTC 2007
  319. # [23:25] <hendry> I wonder why TZ=PDT date gives my UTC on my system. bleh
  320. # [23:26] <Hixie> clearly `uname` sucks.
  321. # [23:27] <hendry> it works on yours? :)
  322. # [23:27] <Hixie> which one?
  323. # [23:27] * Hixie is using four separate computers right now
  324. # [23:28] <Hixie> with four separate OSes
  325. # [23:28] <hendry> `TZ=PDT date`
  326. # [23:28] <Hixie> Thu Oct 11 21:27:18 PDT 2007
  327. # [23:28] <Hixie> Thu Oct 11 21:27:31 PDT 2007
  328. # [23:28] <Hixie> Thu Oct 11 21:27:42 PDT 2007
  329. # [23:28] <Hixie> and...
  330. # [23:29] <Hixie> Thu Oct 11 21:28:05 UTC 2007
  331. # [23:29] <hendry> last is the debian system?
  332. # [23:30] <Hixie> nope, last one was Darwin
  333. # [23:30] <Hixie> (specifically, 10.4)
  334. # [23:30] <Hixie> (it was the only one that wasn't running GNU date, too)
  335. # [23:30] <Hixie> so from this we learn that GNU sucks :-P
  336. # [23:31] <Hixie> and that "PDT" is clearly not the right value of TZ
  337. # [23:31] <hendry> eh? what's the correct code?
  338. # [23:31] <Hixie> no idea
  339. # [23:31] <hendry> PT?
  340. # [23:32] * Hixie tries to find a machine that actually is in that timezone so he can see what it's TZ is set to
  341. # [23:32] <Hixie> none of my machines have TZ set
  342. # [23:32] <Hixie> except one which _is_ in that timezone... it has TZ="UTC+0"
  343. # [23:33] <Hixie> -_-
  344. # [23:33] <hendry> -8 for Pacific http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_time
  345. # [23:33] * Quits: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156) (Quit: .)
  346. # [23:34] <Hixie> my "datelocal" template in my ion3 config uses 'date +"%R PST"'
  347. # [23:34] <Hixie> which doesn't help us at all :-)
  348. # [23:36] <hendry> man, ion3 is bloatware, check http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm
  349. # [23:38] * Quits: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30) (Client exited)
  350. # [23:38] <Hixie> yeah i only run with like 1/10th of ion3's features
  351. # [23:38] <Hixie> i don't know what the devs were thinking
  352. # [23:39] <Hixie> (dwm has much the same problems)
  353. # [23:39] <hsivonen> it takes 10 dev for them all to run only a 10th :-)
  354. # [23:39] <Hixie> (and it doesn't support multihead, which is a blocker for me since my desktop is 2x24")
  355. # [23:39] <hsivonen> s/dev/devs/
  356. # [23:40] * Joins: shepazu (schepers@128.30.52.30)
  357. # [23:40] <Hixie> lol. "Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it's pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions."
  358. # [23:41] * Quits: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.31.86.217) (Ping timeout)
  359. # [23:41] <hsivonen> but are the Debian packages? :-)
  360. # [23:41] <hendry> hsivonen: yes, it is packaged :)
  361. # [23:41] <Hixie> dwm looks ugly, sheesh
  362. # [23:41] * Hixie hugs ion3
  363. # [23:42] * hendry strokes dwm
  364. # [23:43] <hendry> awesome is dwm with multihead http://awesome.naquadah.org/screenshots/
  365. # [23:43] <hendry> ok, what are your thoughts on content adaption?
  366. # [23:43] <hendry> have you seen what novarra and openwave do?
  367. # [23:43] <Hixie> (doesn't look anything like what i want my wm to look like, fwiw)
  368. # [23:45] <Hixie> content adaption? you mean like css media queries?
  369. # [23:45] <hendry> Hixie: no, like when they sit in the middle and blindly rewrite HTML for crappy mobile UAs
  370. # [23:46] <hendry> for e.g. http://natalian.org/archives/2007/10/09/mobile-web-monday/#comment-33580
  371. # [23:46] <Hixie> i guess it's an acceptable workaround to crappy mobile UAs
  372. # [23:46] <Hixie> seems better to just have decent mobile UAs
  373. # [23:46] <Hixie> if my iPod can have a decent browser that can handle GMail, i don't see why a phone can't
  374. # [23:47] * Joins: aaronlev (chatzilla@66.31.86.217)
  375. # [23:47] <hendry> yes, that's what I push for. better UAs
  376. # [23:48] <hsivonen> fwiw, the moment when I realized that the Maemo platform is for real was when I saw timeless do his Gmail bugmail on the Nokia 770
  377. # [23:49] <hendry> heh
  378. # [23:49] * hendry greases his new 'ipod touch'
  379. # [23:49] <hsivonen> OpenWave migth have happier users if their offering was an Opera Mini clone
  380. # [23:49] * Joins: Julian (chatzilla@80.143.187.124)
  381. # [23:50] <hendry> hsivonen: unfortunately their not in the browser market
  382. # [23:50] <hendry> s/their/they are
  383. # [23:51] <hsivonen> nn
  384. # [23:52] <Hixie> nn
  385. # Session Close: Fri Oct 12 00:00:00 2007

The end :)