/irc-logs / w3c / #html-wg / 2007-10-12 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Oct 12 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #html-wg
  3. # [00:05] * Joins: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.224.136)
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  10. # [00:53] <anne> Hixie, for <html manifest> how is that URI resolved? maybe there should be a note somewhere that <base> is not taken into account, but that xml:base is? because as I understand it this starts processing the moment you hit the start tag
  11. # [00:53] <Hixie> there is s such a note, actually, though it doesn't mention xml:base
  12. # [00:54] * DanC changes topic to 'HTML WG teleconference 11 Oct 23:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16 (more logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ )'
  13. # [00:54] * Joins: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  14. # [00:54] <DanC> Zakim, this will be HTML
  15. # [00:54] <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see HTML_WG()7:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
  16. # [00:54] * anne prolly missed it then
  17. # [00:54] <anne> ah, I see now, duh
  18. # [00:56] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.75.20)
  19. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + Convene
  20. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 1 added
  21. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + next meeting, regular meeting times
  22. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 2 added
  23. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + toward release of Design Principles
  24. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 3 added
  25. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + Issue tracking
  26. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 4 added
  27. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda + # Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design
  28. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 5 added
  29. # [00:59] <DanC> agenda 5 = Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design
  30. # [00:59] * Zakim notes agendum 5 replaced
  31. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + table headers
  32. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 6 added
  33. # [01:00] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has now started
  34. # [01:00] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
  35. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + Name for XHTML serialization
  36. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 7 added
  37. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + face-to-face meeting 8-10 November
  38. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 8 added
  39. # [01:00] <DanC> agenda + Forms Taskforce update
  40. # [01:00] * Zakim notes agendum 9 added
  41. # [01:00] * DanC Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  42. # [01:00] * Zakim ok, DanC; the call is being made
  43. # [01:00] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmiata
  44. # [01:01] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
  45. # [01:01] <Zakim> +DanC
  46. # [01:02] <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
  47. # [01:04] * Joins: Chris (cwilso@131.107.0.77)
  48. # [01:04] <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
  49. # [01:04] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 1
  50. # [01:04] <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene" taken up [from DanC]
  51. # [01:04] <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
  52. # [01:04] <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmiata, DanC, Doug_Schepers, [Microsoft]
  53. # [01:05] <Chris> Zakim, [Microsoft] is me
  54. # [01:05] <Zakim> +Chris; got it
  55. # [01:06] <DanC> scribe: DanC
  56. # [01:07] <DanC> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html minutes 13 Sep
  57. # [01:07] <DanC> anne, do you know what Chaals is up to today?
  58. # [01:08] <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
  59. # [01:08] <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
  60. # [01:08] <anne> Not really. Apart from that there's a fifty-fifty chance he's on a plane :)
  61. # [01:08] <Chris> mjs, are you really there?
  62. # [01:09] <mjs> Chris: not on the phone I'm not
  63. # [01:09] * anne won't attend the telcon btw; has to sleep
  64. # [01:09] <oedipus> or waiting for a plane
  65. # [01:09] <mjs> on IRC I am only here enough to answer questions briefly if needed
  66. # [01:09] <DanC> that works for me, mjs
  67. # [01:09] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  68. # [01:09] <Zakim> agendum 2. "next meeting, regular meeting times" taken up [from DanC]
  69. # [01:10] <DanC> DanC: how about Thu, 25 Oct 1500Z?
  70. # [01:11] <DanC> ... or 1400Z, but hard-stop at 1hr
  71. # [01:12] <DanC> ok, next meeting 25 Oct 1400Z
  72. # [01:12] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  73. # [01:12] <Zakim> agendum 3. "toward release of Design Principles" taken up [from DanC]
  74. # [01:12] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99) (Ping timeout)
  75. # [01:13] <DanC> mjs, what news on universal design/accessibility? do you have pending edits, or have you done what you have in mind to do?
  76. # [01:13] * Joins: sbuluf (uunkvc@200.49.140.186)
  77. # [01:13] <DanC> rather: next meeting Thu 18 Oct 1400Z 12p Chicago
  78. # [01:13] <mjs> DanC: I have a pending edit in mind, probably will be free to do it come Monday
  79. # [01:14] <mjs> my only remaining distraction/excuse is doing performance reviews for my staff at Apple which will be complete Monday
  80. # [01:14] * Joins: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  81. # [01:14] <DanC> ChrisW: yes, I'm Ok to chair 25 Oct at 4p PT
  82. # [01:15] <DanC> ChrisW: given that we're not picking up many Asia/OZ participants, maybe I'll look into switching my slot.
  83. # [01:15] * Joins: OedipusWrecked (oedipus@70.21.186.99)
  84. # [01:16] <DanC> ACTION: Maciej to finish editng pass based on pending comments, e.g. from survey of 2007-08-16 to 2007-08-23 [CONTINUES]
  85. # [01:16] * RRSAgent records action 15
  86. # [01:17] * Quits: oedipus (oedipus@70.21.186.99) (Ping timeout)
  87. # [01:17] <DanC> DanC: we seem to go in fits and starts, but I guess that's life
  88. # [01:17] <DanC> ChrisW: I'm making progress on getting more IE team members involved.
  89. # [01:18] <DanC> Zakim, take up item face
  90. # [01:18] <Zakim> agendum 8. "face-to-face meeting 8-10 November" taken up [from DanC]
  91. # [01:18] * OedipusWrecked has always relied on the kindness of strangers, or the strangeness of kin for accomodations
  92. # [01:19] <DanC> ChrisW: wow... they weren't kidding when they said hotel prices would go up.
  93. # [01:19] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
  94. # [01:19] <OedipusWrecked> GJR: registered
  95. # [01:19] <Chris> has everyone who plans on coming to the WG meeting registered?
  96. # [01:19] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2007/registrants#html
  97. # [01:20] * OedipusWrecked one man is a lawyer, 2 men are a law firm, 3 men are a congress - john adams
  98. # [01:20] <DanC> DanC: we seem to have a large room reserved; maybe split, yeah.
  99. # [01:20] <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
  100. # [01:21] <Hixie> btw, i'm still of the opinion that we should tell our "observers" that as a completely open working group we don't accept observers, but that they are welcome to participate, even if they don't actually talk :-)
  101. # [01:21] <OedipusWrecked> trying to organize task force f2f outside of the "normal" meeting hours, as all WG f2fs are meeting at the same time
  102. # [01:21] <Hixie> (or that there is no distinction between "observer" and "participant" or some other such phrasing that encourages them to give us feedback)
  103. # [01:21] <Hixie> (and for "them" to become "us")
  104. # [01:23] <DanC> "200# # indicates Classroom seating only" -- http://www.w3.org/2007/11/TPAC/overview.html
  105. # [01:23] * OedipusWrecked professors connolly and wilson -- make sure you bring yardsticks for herding and knuckle-wrapping
  106. # [01:24] <mjs> I haven't registered but probably I and possibly one or two other people from Apple will be there
  107. # [01:24] <OedipusWrecked> mjs: registration open until the 19th
  108. # [01:24] <DanC> DanC: shall I notify observers? or shall we wait a week? let's wait a week; registration doesn't close 'till 19th
  109. # [01:25] <DanC> ChrisW: go ahead if you wanna do it sooner
  110. # [01:25] <Chris> mjs - travel (particularly hotels) are getting tight, if you haven't already set it up.
  111. # [01:25] <Chris> (I registered for hotel today, and it was between a $79/night room and a $550/night room)
  112. # [01:26] <Chris> (and it was 2mi away)
  113. # [01:26] <DanC> Zakim, close this item
  114. # [01:26] <Zakim> agendum 8 closed
  115. # [01:26] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  116. # [01:26] <Zakim> 3. toward release of Design Principles [from DanC]
  117. # [01:26] <DanC> Zakim, close item 3
  118. # [01:26] <Zakim> agendum 3, toward release of Design Principles, closed
  119. # [01:26] <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
  120. # [01:26] <Zakim> 4. Issue tracking [from DanC]
  121. # [01:26] <mjs> Chris, will deal w/ it soon
  122. # [01:26] <DanC> ChrisW: Dan, you and I should refine the agenda a bit.
  123. # [01:26] <OedipusWrecked> mjs: will there be another draft of the HDP before TPAC?
  124. # [01:26] <mjs> OedipusWrecked, I hope so
  125. # [01:26] <DanC> ChrisW: I'm flying in Monday PM
  126. # [01:27] <OedipusWrecked> mjs: good!
  127. # [01:27] <DanC> (I hope to get HDP to /TR/ by the TPAC)
  128. # [01:27] <DanC> Zakim, take up item 4
  129. # [01:27] <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issue tracking" taken up [from DanC]
  130. # [01:28] * Joins: billmason (billmason@69.30.57.156)
  131. # [01:29] <DanC> ChrisW: I'm making progress on related stuff...
  132. # [01:29] <DanC> DanC: we can survive 'till the TPAC with our present issue tracking chaos, I guess
  133. # [01:29] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [WITHDRAWN]
  134. # [01:29] * RRSAgent records action 16
  135. # [01:30] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  136. # [01:30] <Zakim> agendum 5. "Detailed Spec Reviews, toward 1st public WD of design" taken up
  137. # [01:31] <DanC> ChrisW: yes, I'm working with the IE team on our review...
  138. # [01:31] <DanC> ... I'll have some stuff sent out prior to the ftf meeting.
  139. # [01:31] <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews
  140. # [01:33] <DanC> discussion of multimedia elements, IP/charter issues...
  141. # [01:33] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  142. # [01:33] <Zakim> agendum 6. "table headers" taken up [from DanC]
  143. # [01:34] <OedipusWrecked> ben millard has a proposed data table presentation
  144. # [01:34] <OedipusWrecked> yes
  145. # [01:34] <OedipusWrecked> i pinged him (since he mentioned me by name)
  146. # [01:34] <DanC> (if you have a pointer, bonus points)
  147. # [01:35] <DanC> DanC: this seems lower priority than ARIA. I haven't talked with Al G. lately about table headers.
  148. # [01:35] <OedipusWrecked> B.M.'s Data Table: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0074.html
  149. # [01:35] <Chris> Marc Silbey is our PF rep (or alternate, I can't remember)
  150. # [01:35] <OedipusWrecked> ARIA is on front burner due to march to LC
  151. # [01:35] <DanC> ChrisW: the timing of ARIA is interesting.
  152. # [01:36] <OedipusWrecked> PFWG: still working on and monitoring native HTML5 discussions
  153. # [01:36] <Chris> yes
  154. # [01:36] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  155. # [01:36] <Zakim> agendum 7. "Name for XHTML serialization" taken up [from DanC]
  156. # [01:37] <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES]
  157. # [01:37] * RRSAgent records action 17
  158. # [01:37] <DanC> ChrisW: next HTCG telcon is when?
  159. # [01:37] <DanC> DanC: tomorrow. early.
  160. # [01:37] * OedipusWrecked dropped phone -- can still hear it -- luckily it's on mute
  161. # [01:38] <Chris> 1
  162. # [01:38] <OedipusWrecked> GJR: big impediment to advancing ARIA -- mime-type and namespacing issues; struggle between other, larger, groups
  163. # [01:39] <DanC> ChrisW: the mime type is related...
  164. # [01:39] * Quits: hyatt (hyatt@98.200.224.136) (Quit: hyatt)
  165. # [01:39] <DanC> DanC: but narrowly, it's just the name.
  166. # [01:39] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  167. # [01:39] <Zakim> agendum 9. "Forms Taskforce update" taken up [from DanC]
  168. # [01:39] * OedipusWrecked wonders what's in a name -- especially his...
  169. # [01:39] <OedipusWrecked> Task Force Report (3 parts): 1. first steps: organizational suggestion/proposal (27 September 2007)
  170. # [01:39] <OedipusWrecked> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Sep/0004.html
  171. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> plan: 1) gain "official" access to a wiki in W3C space (suggested Forms wiki); 2) convene prior to the technical plenary in at least one teleconference; 3) discuss opportunities to meet and work during technical plenary week; 4) begin actually using the list that was expressly created for our use to coordinate all of the above.
  172. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> 2. Anne van Kesteren: a charter proposal:
  173. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Oct/0000.html
  174. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> 3. Chris Lilley's Request to Gain the TF web access:
  175. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Oct/0012.html
  176. # [01:40] <OedipusWrecked> positive reactions to charter, want to meet by phone if possible before TPAC
  177. # [01:41] <OedipusWrecked> CL msg 3 october
  178. # [01:41] <OedipusWrecked> yep
  179. # [01:41] <DanC> hmm. that's more than a day or two.
  180. # [01:41] <OedipusWrecked> good --thanks
  181. # [01:41] <OedipusWrecked> for a week it looked like we were going to get out of neutral
  182. # [01:41] <DanC> Zakim, next item
  183. # [01:41] <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, DanC
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  185. # [01:43] * OedipusWrecked wonders if avk or mjs are still around -- thoughts on forms task force?
  186. # [01:43] <mjs> I'm around
  187. # [01:44] * OedipusWrecked anything to add to task forms update?
  188. # [01:44] <mjs> since we all seem to mostly like our draft charter, I'd love to get it approved soon
  189. # [01:44] <OedipusWrecked> me, too -- danC will raise at HTCG
  190. # [01:44] <mjs> and then discuss how to begin work based on the charter
  191. # [01:44] <OedipusWrecked> amen, brother
  192. # [01:44] * Quits: tH (Rob@87.102.2.12) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508])
  193. # [01:45] <OedipusWrecked> mjs: do you think discussion on how to begin work should happen in a telecon?
  194. # [01:46] <mjs> OedipusWrecked: yes
  195. # [01:46] <mjs> I think we should have a telecon soon to formally adopt the charter and then discuss how to proceed
  196. # [01:46] <Chris> yes, I agree.
  197. # [01:47] <OedipusWrecked> mjs: we need to get our staff contact straightened out -- ChrisL asked sysreq for action on 3 october, but still no news
  198. # [01:47] <OedipusWrecked> danC: to whom should the forms task force address issues like getting bridge time?
  199. # [01:48] <Chris> Agenda items concluded, so we're closing the call
  200. # [01:48] <Chris> I think ChrisL is still the appropriate person, Oedipus, but Dan can kick sysreq too.
  201. # [01:48] <DanC> OedipusWrecked, see http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/TeleconferenceHowTo in the collaborator's guide. http://www.w3.org/Guide/
  202. # [01:48] <OedipusWrecked> danC: ok -- thanks
  203. # [01:48] <DanC> actually, for teleconferences, the message goes to adminreq
  204. # [01:48] <Chris> ah
  205. # [01:49] <OedipusWrecked> ok -- this is good to know
  206. # [01:49] <DanC> it sounds like a 15 minute walk thru of the collaborator's guide might help the TF.
  207. # [01:49] <DanC> that is: a walk thru with one or two TF members
  208. # [01:50] <OedipusWrecked> danC: it would help alot - either setting up a time for 2 of us or so to talk to you, or you giving us 15 minutes of your time at our first telecon
  209. # [01:51] <DanC> I'd rather not get involved in the TF telcon scheduling
  210. # [01:51] <DanC> I can call you now if you like. I have 10 minutes or so
  211. # [01:51] <OedipusWrecked> ok, i have to find my phone, first
  212. # [01:51] <Chris> heh
  213. # [01:52] <Chris> Dan, do you want to call back in?
  214. # [01:52] <DanC> ok
  215. # [01:52] <DanC> Zakim, call DanC-BOS
  216. # [01:52] <Zakim> ok, DanC; the call is being made
  217. # [01:52] <Zakim> +DanC.a
  218. # [01:52] <DanC> Zakim, drop DanC
  219. # [01:52] <Zakim> DanC is being disconnected
  220. # [01:52] <Zakim> -DanC
  221. # [01:56] * Quits: OedipusWrecked (oedipus@70.21.186.99) (Ping timeout)
  222. # [01:56] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/groups
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  225. # [02:01] <Zakim> -Chris
  226. # [02:03] <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
  227. # [02:03] <Zakim> -DanC.a
  228. # [02:03] <Zakim> HTML_WG()7:00PM has ended
  229. # [02:03] <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, Doug_Schepers, Chris, DanC.a
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  253. # [11:15] * Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed
  254. # [11:15] * Parts: Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.30)
  255. # [11:15] * anne created http://www.w3.org/2007/10/forms-tf/
  256. # [11:16] <zcorpan_> no BETA banner?
  257. # [11:16] <anne> thought about it, though about an HTML5 DOCTYPE too, but it seems better to remain conservative
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  259. # [11:26] <hsivonen> anne: I guess that page is proof that author expectations of browser default style can change over time (image link border)
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  261. # [11:28] <anne> heh
  262. # [11:28] <hsivonen> does IE put the border there? Opera and Safari don't.
  263. # [11:28] <anne> ok, I'll fix that and then I'm done with it
  264. # [11:30] <zcorpan_> firefox also puts a border there, it seems
  265. # [11:30] * zcorpan_ thinks firefox should change that
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  267. # [11:31] <anne> fixed, also fixed wording
  268. # [11:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: "also"? does that mean IE puts a border there, too?
  269. # [11:32] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: yes
  270. # [11:32] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: ok. then a Gecko change is harder to argue for
  271. # [11:33] <hsivonen> although I'd prefer Gecko not putting the border there
  272. # [11:33] <zcorpan_> well, everyone agrees that it's ugly, and if gecko change, it's just ie that makes pages ugly :)
  273. # [11:33] <zcorpan_> s/change/changes/
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  275. # [11:54] <anne> hsivonen, I think the Firefox guys might do weird stuff with IDness as well
  276. # [11:54] <anne> hsivonen, see the xml:id bug they got
  277. # [11:56] <hsivonen> anne: I think the length of that patch is a testament to the complication of xml:id
  278. # [11:57] <hsivonen> (also to unfortunate legacy assumptions in Gecko, I guess)
  279. # [11:57] <anne> would be nice if we just made id= work
  280. # [11:58] <anne> if there's indeed need for a global attribute
  281. # [12:01] <hsivonen> anne: I'm making it work in Validator.nu (both for built in schemas and for bring-your-own XPath)
  282. # [12:07] <anne> btw, xml:id is a perfect example of why the SVG WG contradicts itself
  283. # [12:07] <anne> they simply don't want not-in-a-namespace stuff, but rather have failed framework stuff like xlink:*, xml:id, etc.
  284. # [12:08] <anne> xml:id isn't compatible with vertical ASV markets either
  285. # [12:08] <anne> yet they introduced it anyway
  286. # [12:08] <anne> it's fricking silly
  287. # [12:08] <hsivonen> ASV?
  288. # [12:08] <anne> Adobe SVG Viewer
  289. # [12:08] <anne> Doug cited that in one of his e-mails
  290. # [12:09] <anne> as a reason not to use href= over xlink:href=
  291. # [12:09] <hsivonen> I'm not sure what vertical markets are in the case of ASV
  292. # [12:09] <anne> intranets that rely on SVG + ASV
  293. # [12:09] <hsivonen> ASV is end-of-lifed, isn't it, so anyone sharecropping on that market is going to get burned
  294. # [12:09] <hsivonen> ok
  295. # [12:10] <anne> yeah, the argument didn't sound too convincing to me either, but I guess some of it may be true given that Doug used to build such stuff
  296. # [12:11] <hsivonen> anne: do you remember off-hand if getElementById("") matches id=""?
  297. # [12:12] <anne> id="" doesn't define an ID
  298. # [12:12] <anne> so it wouldn't match
  299. # [12:12] <hsivonen> anne: so the spec says
  300. # [12:13] <hsivonen> I guess it is time to write a test case to see if the reality agrees
  301. # [12:13] <hsivonen> FWIW, xml:id requires ID assigment on ""
  302. # [12:13] <anne> I think reality agrees
  303. # [12:14] <krijnh> anne: your Google Suggest article on dev.opera.com uses <option value="foo" /> inside a select.. Is that the correct way to do it?
  304. # [12:14] <anne> I believe Norman W. said that xml:id= didn't define an ID either
  305. # [12:14] <hsivonen> anne: should I take that as a normative reference overriding the xml:id spec?
  306. # [12:15] <anne> if the xml:id spec says otherwise I guess he changed his mind
  307. # [12:15] * anne is slightly confused
  308. # [12:15] * hsivonen looks at the code nwalsh wrote
  309. # [12:16] <hsivonen> his code is even more complex than mine
  310. # [12:16] <hsivonen> since his supports legacy JDKs and XML 1.1
  311. # [12:20] * Quits: kevinw (kevinw@67.9.74.115) (Ping timeout)
  312. # [12:21] <hsivonen> hmm. I think his attribute value normalization code has a bug in case the source had escaped white space characters
  313. # [12:22] <anne> does that information even reach the xml:id processor?
  314. # [12:24] <hsivonen> heh. my test case crashed the java.net xml:id filter
  315. # [12:25] <hsivonen> anne: the xml:id processor sees the expanded string after escaping but escaped white space, IIRC, does not get normalized on the XML processor level
  316. # [12:25] <hsivonen> anne: so if the spec tells you to run the AVNormalize step again, you really should run it again for all white space--not just spaces
  317. # [12:28] <hsivonen> well, since the de facto reference impl crashes, I guess I can decide that I don't put "" in the ID map
  318. # [12:29] <hsivonen> java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 0 at net.java.dev.xmlidfilter.XMLIdFilter.checkNCName(Unknown Source)
  319. # [12:31] <hsivonen> I'm mildly amused that the crash was in the NCName check
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  331. # [16:02] <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
  332. # [16:02] <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T14-01-50
  333. # [16:03] <DanC> odd!
  334. # [16:04] <shepazu> hsivonen, ping
  335. # [16:05] <hsivonen> shepazu: pong
  336. # [16:06] <shepazu> it's true that ASV is EOL'ed, but every so often, Adobe comes out with an announcement that they are pushing back the date because of customer demand
  337. # [16:06] <hsivonen> shepazu: ok
  338. # [16:07] <hsivonen> shepazu: is there any viable replacement for IE on Windows?
  339. # [16:07] <shepazu> I know several large shops that rely on it, including some departments of the US Gov't, and Fortune500 businesses
  340. # [16:07] <Philip> DanC: Is that possibly a continuation of the "RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight" from the Sep 13 meeting, and RRSAgent thinks that meeting is still going on and so it hasn't started a new log?
  341. # [16:07] <shepazu> hsivonen, you mean something to replace IE, or to replace ASV?
  342. # [16:08] <DanC> yup
  343. # [16:08] <hsivonen> shepazu: to replace ASV in IE in a way that leaves the usual kind of ASV-targeting content working
  344. # [16:08] <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
  345. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> I see 17 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-actions.rdf :
  346. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [1]
  347. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T17-42-20
  348. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [2]
  349. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T18-04-16
  350. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [3]
  351. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/16-html-wg-irc#T18-12-21
  352. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [4]
  353. # [16:08] <shepazu> anne, btw, that the SVG WG would contradict itself is completely normal.... it's made of individual who have their own opinions and agendas
  354. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-06-57
  355. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to discuss survey with Chris W and issue it, based on the most mature/agreed ones [DONE] [5]
  356. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-07-46
  357. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to reserve a bridge for this alternating schedule [DONE] [6]
  358. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-07-56
  359. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory to contact T.V. Raman about the Forms Task force [DONE] [7]
  360. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-08-03
  361. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling with chaals [DONE] [8]
  362. # [16:08] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-08-36
  363. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [CONTINUES] [9]
  364. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-09-18
  365. # [16:09] <shepazu> hsivonen: not quite yet, but there is a company working on it
  366. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [10]
  367. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/30-html-wg-irc#T23-20-37
  368. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Chris follow up with Karl about his comment on "support existing content" [11]
  369. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/31-html-wg-irc#T00-15-28
  370. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [12]
  371. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-06-03
  372. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last [period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN] [13]
  373. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-06-42
  374. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [CONTINUES] [14]
  375. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-48-30
  376. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: Maciej to finish editng pass based on pending comments, e.g. from survey of 2007-08-16 to 2007-08-23 [CONTINUES] [15]
  377. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-15-05
  378. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues [WITHDRAWN] [16]
  379. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-28-43
  380. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [17]
  381. # [16:09] <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc#T23-36-12
  382. # [16:09] * Parts: RRSAgent (rrs-loggee@128.30.52.30)
  383. # [16:09] <zcorpan_> finally... :)
  384. # [16:10] * Joins: tH_ (Rob@87.102.2.12)
  385. # [16:10] * tH_ is now known as tH
  386. # [16:11] <shepazu> hsivonen: no replacement for ASV quite yet, but there is a company working on it
  387. # [16:11] <hsivonen> shepazu: ok
  388. # [16:11] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  389. # [16:24] <shepazu> "Abstract Thrid-Person Passive-Voice Pronouncements Considered Pompous" ;)
  390. # [16:31] <hsivonen> shepazu: perhaps. but the point is that xml:id has failed utterly to make IDness easier. instead, it makes it quantifyable (# of LOC) harder. and SVG working around that makes it even more complex
  391. # [16:31] <hsivonen> for no good reason at the end of the day
  392. # [16:32] <shepazu> I certainly wasn't trivializing your point, just your subject line ;)
  393. # [16:33] <shepazu> I agree that xml:id is a hack, and I was reminded of that when talking about duplicating xlink:href and href
  394. # [16:33] <shepazu> XML should have specified that the token 'id' was of type 'id'
  395. # [16:39] <shepazu> anne and hsivonen, my arguments against null:href don't hinge on ASV, anyway... it's really not clear to me that duplicate attributes will make the story clearer for authors
  396. # [16:40] <anne> I'm amazed you let xml:id go through, in that case
  397. # [16:41] <shepazu> I wasn't part of that decision... before my time on the WG
  398. # [16:42] <anne> In any case, it would require less boilerplate for new authors and make the design of SVG more consistent with that of HTML
  399. # [16:43] <zcorpan_> introducing href="" is pretty pointless until text/html integration takes place
  400. # [16:44] <zcorpan_> (which isn't necessarily a given that it even will)
  401. # [16:44] <shepazu> zcorpan_: I think making any differences between standalone SVG and SVG in HTML would be actively harmful to SVG, and I would not support that
  402. # [16:46] <zcorpan_> shepazu: agree, i think they should have the same DOM-level processing
  403. # [16:47] <shepazu> if by that, you mean the same syntax, I'm gld to hear that
  404. # [16:47] <shepazu> if you don't mean that, then please explain :)
  405. # [16:47] <anne> that's like asking for HTML and XHTML to have the same syntax
  406. # [16:48] <zcorpan_> not necessarily; I mean that a UA should do the same thing with nodes in the DOM regardless of the HTMLness flag on the Document object
  407. # [16:48] <zcorpan_> although having a common syntax between text/html and XML would be nice
  408. # [16:49] <zcorpan_> is that a sufficient explanation?
  409. # [16:50] <shepazu> not really
  410. # [16:50] <zcorpan_> what is unclear?
  411. # [16:51] <shepazu> if you're saying that SVG-in-HTML can have a different markup syntax than standalone SVG, regardless of the resulting DOM tree, then I'd be strongly opposed to that, as would almost all the the SVG WG, I'm sure
  412. # [16:51] <zcorpan_> i haven't suggested anything about the text/html syntax
  413. # [16:52] <shepazu> that would mean that someone who copy-pasted an SVG fragment from HTML and tried to use it as a standalone file, or imported it into an SVG file (perhaps in an automated mashup) would get unexpected and probably disastrous results
  414. # [16:53] <zcorpan_> indeed
  415. # [16:54] <zcorpan_> there are open issues in integrating SVG in text/html, one of them is that xlink:href="" is problematic to handle in the html parser. one way to solve that particular issue is to also allow namespaceless href="" (both in XML and HTML).
  416. # [16:54] <shepazu> yeah, that's clear, but that's not a costless option
  417. # [16:55] <zcorpan_> of course not, options have to be weighted against each other
  418. # [16:55] * anne notes that allowing camelCase conventions from SVG would require changes on the HTML tokenizer level
  419. # [16:55] <zcorpan_> it seems to me that introducing declarative namespaces in html has a lot higher cost
  420. # [16:55] * anne wonders if implementors are up for that
  421. # [16:56] <zcorpan_> anne: making the tokenizer case sensitive when in <svg> scope could work
  422. # [16:56] <zcorpan_> that would have to include attributes on the "svg" token
  423. # [16:57] <anne> I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just not sure it's worth it
  424. # [16:57] <zcorpan_> ok
  425. # [16:57] <shepazu> wow, HTML5 is sounding more and more restrictive
  426. # [16:58] <zcorpan_> restrictive?
  427. # [16:58] <anne> this has nothing to do with HTML5, this is just how text/html has worked over the last decade
  428. # [16:58] <anne> HTML5 just exposes it
  429. # [16:59] <shepazu> HTML has, for years, been unable to parse documents with camelCase?
  430. # [16:59] <zcorpan_> yes
  431. # [16:59] <zcorpan_> or not unable, but you get all-lowercase (or all-uppercase)
  432. # [17:00] <shepazu> including XHTML?
  433. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> no
  434. # [17:00] <zcorpan_> the XML parser is case sensitive
  435. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> the HTML parser is case insensitive
  436. # [17:01] <shepazu> I thought the goal was to make HTML5 able to serialize both?
  437. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> yes, but you don't use the same parser to parse both
  438. # [17:01] <zcorpan_> you use the XML parser for XHTML5 and the HTML parser for HTML5
  439. # [17:02] <anne> and we're also not introducing elements or attributes with uppercase characters in them
  440. # [17:02] <shepazu> how can you serialize an XHTML document from a DOM representation of an HTML5 document?
  441. # [17:03] <anne> try the html5lib -xml option
  442. # [17:03] <zcorpan_> how to serialize a DOM to XML is... implied in the DOM/XML specs, i think
  443. # [17:03] <zcorpan_> although DOM says to raise an exception for certain cases
  444. # [17:03] <anne> that too
  445. # [17:03] <shepazu> does it add camelCasing back in to the parsed strings?
  446. # [17:04] <anne> huh? why would the original casing ever end up in the DOM?
  447. # [17:04] <anne> that's all normalized during tokenizing, as I just explained
  448. # [17:05] <shepazu> I'm saying, if someone has an HTML document that follows all the syntax rules of XHTML, can you get out an XHTML version of that post-parse?
  449. # [17:05] <zcorpan_> text/html input "<fooBar>" -> a DOM tree -> "<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head/><body><foobar/></body></html>" serialized as XML
  450. # [17:06] <zcorpan_> shepazu: whether the HTML document followed XHTML syntax rules or not is irrelevant
  451. # [17:07] <shepazu> so, the serializer knows about all possible legal tokens?
  452. # [17:08] <zcorpan_> yeah, if you have a DOM tree that is not serializable as XML (which can happen from DOM mutations, e.g.), the serializer raises an exception
  453. # [17:08] <shepazu> I see
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  463. # [18:15] <anne> shepazu, I agree a shared syntax would be nice, but how'd you deal with <div><svg><rect></svg></div> in HTML for instance?
  464. # [18:15] <anne> I don't think it's really possible, although maybe you could do it for syntactically correct documents
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  487. # [20:22] <anne> DanC, status of XMLHttpRequest is waiting for browsers to fix their bugs
  488. # [20:22] <anne> mostly
  489. # [20:36] <gsnedders> anne: with all that you've been doing recently, you have any reason to want me to work on HTTP parsing urgently or not?
  490. # [20:38] <anne> no, I'm just curious :)
  491. # [20:39] <gsnedders> anne: then I'll work on other things during my holidays (two weeks, starting today) :P
  492. # [20:40] <DanC> anne, are there tests for these bugs?
  493. # [20:41] <anne> quite a lot on tc.labs.opera.com/apis/
  494. # [20:41] <anne> but I've pointed you there before I believe
  495. # [20:41] <DanC> if you did, I forgot
  496. # [20:42] <DanC> are they endorsed by the WebAPI WG?
  497. # [20:42] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  498. # [20:42] <DanC> are they automated tests?
  499. # [20:42] <zcorpan_> jgraham: the innerHTML view in http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/parsetree/parsetree.py emits end tags for <img>, <input>, etc
  500. # [20:42] <anne> DanC, no, I believe hallvord made an automated wrapper around them
  501. # [20:45] <zcorpan_> jgraham: area, base, basefont, bgsound, br, col, embed, frame, hr, img, input, link, meta, param, spacer, and wbr
  502. # [20:46] * DanC thought he had an email conversation with Boris about the XHR timeline, but struggles to confirm from archives...
  503. # [20:47] <anne> we just need two implementations and maybe more test coverage
  504. # [20:47] <DanC> hmm... found a reply from anne re my roadmap/schedule question. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Aug/0064.html
  505. # [20:48] <anne> I rather not write those tests myself though as I probably make some assumptions having written the specification
  506. # [20:48] <DanC> yeah; that makes sense
  507. # [20:49] <DanC> does the webapi WG have a test development rhythm?
  508. # [20:49] * zcorpan_ still has that on his to-do list
  509. # [20:49] <zcorpan_> write XHR tests, that is
  510. # [20:49] <anne> but I think I tested most if not all functionality that is already implemented to make sure what is specified is realistic
  511. # [20:50] <anne> not everything ended up in the testsuite because some of it was a done on an "offline" Python server
  512. # [20:50] <zcorpan_> i think i will go from the other end -- write tests against the spec instead of against implementations
  513. # [20:52] <DanC> re "what is specified is realistic", the "hello world" example doesn't work. My impression (from this conversation that I can't find) is that it's going to be quite a while before XHR implementations match the spec.
  514. # [20:53] <DanC> I gather the negotiations with the IE team have started in substance about what's realistic.
  515. # [20:54] <anne> have you followed that discussion on the public-webapi list?
  516. # [20:54] <DanC> I'm looking at it now
  517. # [20:54] <anne> I think the examples should work in Opera, at least, but I haven't tested
  518. # [20:55] <anne> And maybe also Firefox 3 if they finally fixed the bug with send()
  519. # [20:55] <anne> seems perfectly acceptable to me that the examples expose the interoperability issues
  520. # [20:56] <zcorpan_> it increases the likelyhood that they get fixed ;)
  521. # [20:56] <DanC> it surprised me. it would be acceptable to me if there were a clear WebAPI schedule and people were presenting it at conferences and making sure the developer community thinks it's reasonable
  522. # [20:56] <anne> zcorpan_, indeed
  523. # [20:57] <DanC> I dunno; it also increases the likelihood that people write off the W3C work as irrelevant
  524. # [20:57] <anne> it would be irrelevant if we did what Microsoft suggested
  525. # [20:57] <DanC> huh?
  526. # [20:58] <anne> there's a lot of tiny interop issues with XHR, leaving those all unaddressed gives you a tutorial
  527. # [20:58] <anne> the Web API WG figured out way in the beginning that doing that isn't really a worthy goal
  528. # [20:59] <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Sep/0043.html is the feedback from the IE Team btw
  529. # [20:59] <DanC> well, I wasn't there when you figured that out, and nor were 99% of javascript developers. So I think the WebAPI WG would do well to tell the rest of us the story behind the goals.
  530. # [21:00] <anne> we do regularly, on public-webapi
  531. # [21:00] <anne> all our stuff is basically public
  532. # [21:01] <DanC> at least a paragraph in the status of this document that says "don't be surprised if these examples don't work in today's shipped browsers; you need a version of firefox with bug XYZ fixed"
  533. # [21:01] <DanC> I don't read all of public-webapi. the story should get re-told to increasingly larger audiences
  534. # [21:01] <anne> we tried that, but people didn't like a history section
  535. # [21:02] <anne> when it reaches a stable state the examples will work in at least two browsers
  536. # [21:02] <DanC> are you sure you heard from all the people? I suspect many were silently happy with the history
  537. # [21:02] <anne> i'm sure I haven't heard of all people
  538. # [21:02] <kingryan> DanC: I would suspect that most people reading the spec now are familiar with the history
  539. # [21:03] <anne> anyway, I'm fine with advertizing the work more, but there's only so much I can do
  540. # [21:03] <anne> I'm already testing, chasing up implementors and writing the spec, maybe someone else can do the remaining tasks
  541. # [21:04] <DanC> hmm... well, I'd expect I know more of the history than the average community member. I suppose it's possible that lots of people follow more closely than I do, but that seems like an awful stretch, kingryan
  542. # [21:04] <DanC> yes, you're doing plenty, anne
  543. # [21:04] <kingryan> DanC: I'm saying that not a lot of people follow the spec.
  544. # [21:05] <DanC> i see
  545. # [21:06] <DanC> I pushed on Dean Jackson when the WebAPI WG was initially set up to emphasize test development. bummer that didn't work out.
  546. # [21:07] <anne> mabye it's because testing is not very rewarding
  547. # [21:07] <DanC> it gets some people out of bed in the morning.
  548. # [21:07] <DanC> you just gotta find the right people
  549. # [21:08] <Philip_> You have to find people who like telling browser developers that they're stupid and their code is full of bugs :-)
  550. # [21:08] <kingryan> there's a difference between writing tests to a greefield spec and testing existing implementations
  551. # [21:08] <DanC> webkit has lots of great automated tests. various parts of firefox have good tests, and it's getting better
  552. # [21:08] * Joins: hober (ted@68.107.112.172)
  553. # [21:09] <DanC> no, no, no; you have to find people who like _helping_ browser developers by providing clear and easy to use tests.
  554. # [21:09] * Joins: dbaron (dbaron@63.245.220.241)
  555. # [21:10] <Philip_> Mozilla appears to have a total of three <canvas> tests now
  556. # [21:13] <Philip_> Webkit seems to have 23
  557. # [21:14] <zcorpan_> DanC: that's the same thing as what Philip_ said :)
  558. # [21:14] <Philip_> so neither is anywhere close to comprehensive testing, though they're still useful for catching regressions
  559. # [21:14] <anne> it's not just the browsers btw, the specs often "suck" too
  560. # [21:15] <anne> see HTML4, CSS2, etc.
  561. # [21:15] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  562. # [21:15] * Joins: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145)
  563. # [21:15] <zcorpan_> xml-stylesheet...
  564. # [21:16] * Quits: mjs (mjs@64.81.48.145) (Quit: mjs)
  565. # [21:16] <anne> fixing that spec would be useful for access-control too btw
  566. # [21:16] <anne> and xbl
  567. # [21:16] <zcorpan_> yeah, i think i'm gonna take a shot at that
  568. # [21:16] <anne> the only problem is getting it through the XML Core WG I guess
  569. # [21:17] <DanC> I've been off in Semantic Web working groups for years... perhaps architecture astronaut stuff, but we developed test cases concurrent with addressing issues. RDF Core, OWL, SPARQL, GRDDL all have tests that only lag the specs by a little bit during spec dev, and all sync'd up during CR. tool interop is very good, as a result.
  570. # [21:17] * zcorpan_ really mostly cares about interoperable implementations, but doing things the Right Way is also good, of course
  571. # [21:18] <anne> zcorpan_, yeah, me too, but I need some way to reuse that spec
  572. # [21:18] <zcorpan_> yep
  573. # [21:19] <kingryan> DanC: those were greenfield specs, though. you didn't have to deal with existing implementations with large deployments
  574. # [21:19] <DanC> yes, that too
  575. # [21:19] <DanC> (RDF Core did deal with some legacy, but not a very big one.)
  576. # [21:19] <kingryan> DanC: all all the implementors were active WG participants?
  577. # [21:20] <anne> yeah, testing gets interesting when there's both a spec and implementations and you've to figure out which of the two need changing, how that affects everything, etc.
  578. # [21:20] <Philip_> With HTML, it seems to me that it's most useful to write tests for already-implemented features that have interoperability problems, to help fix the problems, except that means the new not-yet-implemented features in HTML5 don't get any attention until they're already implemented badly
  579. # [21:20] <DanC> no, not all the implementors were WG participants.
  580. # [21:20] <zcorpan_> the first thing i'd do would be to get rid of well-formedness constraints -- it's really inappropriate for xml-stylesheets to alter the well-formedness of xml documents
  581. # [21:20] <anne> it's very hard to write tests for features that are not implemented
  582. # [21:21] <DanC> we got implementation reports from people we'd never heard of. "Thanks for the tests; my code passes all but 3; I think one of them is a bug in the test"
  583. # [21:21] <anne> zcorpan_, in a way that's what Namespaces in XML does too, but I guess that's true
  584. # [21:21] <kingryan> Philip_: that's the approach I've been taking in working on parsing tests
  585. # [21:21] * DanC wanders off...
  586. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> anne: indeed, although i see namespaces in xml as "part of" xml (even though it's at a layer on top)
  587. # [21:22] <anne> zcorpan_, people didn't like it when jl and I decided to made it a well-formedness contraint in Opera
  588. # [21:22] <zcorpan_> anne: yep, i don't like it either
  589. # [21:23] <anne> i don't think you need to reverse engineer too much though
  590. # [21:23] <anne> just describe an algorithm for a PI with pseudo-attributes and have browsers fix their impl
  591. # [21:24] <zcorpan_> yeah, i've done quick ad-hoc testing and every test seems to reveal interop problems
  592. # [21:24] * Philip_ is now known as Philip
  593. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> e.g. if you add a PI with script, should it be processed?
  594. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> firefox says yes, opera and safari no
  595. # [21:25] <anne> also for a PI referencing XSLT?
  596. # [21:25] <zcorpan_> haven't tested that yet
  597. # [21:40] <anne> It would be nice if the HTML CG was public too
  598. # [21:48] * zcorpan_ googles for html-cg and finds ... #html-wg irc logs
  599. # [21:48] <shepazu> lol
  600. # [21:53] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
  601. # [22:03] <gsnedders> HTML CG?
  602. # [22:09] <Philip> Cg is a C-like programming language for OpenGL/DirectX pixel shaders, so I would assume it's an HTML serialisation of that language
  603. # [22:10] <Philip> (Alternatively, there needs to be some namespacing system in English to avoid acronym collisions)
  604. # [22:10] <shepazu> Coordination Group, I think
  605. # [22:12] <gsnedders> Philip: Namespaces for en, should we call it?
  606. # [22:13] <kingryan> don't we need english markup language (EML) first?
  607. # [22:13] <kingryan> maybe we should skip straight to EML5 though
  608. # [22:13] <shepazu> lol
  609. # [22:13] <gsnedders> kingryan: you want markup? peh! that might make semantics clear!
  610. # [22:13] <Philip> gsnedders: That won't work, since someone might add namespaces to typographical measurement units - it needs to be "Namespaces for humanlanguage:en"
  611. # [22:14] <gsnedders> not laguages:human:en?
  612. # [22:14] <gsnedders> s/lag/lang/
  613. # [22:14] <Philip> (That's no more recursive than the HTML specification being written in HTML)
  614. # [22:14] <shepazu> you're going about it the wrong way... start with the core Natural Language Markup, and then derive all the localized markup for all the other languages from that
  615. # [22:15] <shepazu> we'd also need a core Syntax, Grammar, and Dictionary markup...
  616. # [22:16] <shepazu> rules for how to compose words, and sentences...
  617. # [22:16] <shepazu> X-bar notation...
  618. # [22:16] <hober> We'll need to ensure that we can use RDFa in NLML, for distributed natural language extensibility
  619. # [22:16] <shepazu> grammar transforms
  620. # [22:16] * Joins: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9)
  621. # [22:16] <Philip> shepazu: That would work nicely - we could handle new languages by just combining the Subject-Verb-Object Module and the Genderless-Nouns Module and all the other language features
  622. # [22:17] <shepazu> with attributes for head-initial and head-final...
  623. # [22:18] <zcorpan_> hmm. i guess it makes sense for compat with legacy text/html implementations to make SVG <script> and <style> in text/html CDATA, and <title> RCDATA. <textArea> however is more tricky
  624. # [22:19] <shepazu> I think NLML would not fit well into a tree structure... it might need more of a node-edge graph DOM
  625. # [22:20] <Philip> I thought the problem was more to do with the script/style/title unintentionally affecting the processing of the page in unaware UAs, rather than to do with the parsing
  626. # [22:20] <gsnedders> shepazu: INVALID_REQUEST_EXCEPTION
  627. # [22:21] <Philip> Is there any way to encode graphs that's more standard/common than the .dot format?
  628. # [22:21] <zcorpan_> Philip: i don't see how svg script or style would be different from html script or style, and duplicate titles are just ignored
  629. # [22:22] <Philip> (That's actually a useful question since I'm doing some work with routing algorithms, which needs graphs, and I don't know of a good way to input them)
  630. # [22:24] <zcorpan_> <textArea> can legally contain <tspan> in svg, but <textArea> would be parsed as the html <textarea> by legacy UAs, i.e. RCDATA
  631. # [22:27] <Philip> So a script that implements HTML-SVG in legacy UAs (by renamespacing the DOM) would have to notice the textarea then parse its value to get a new subtree to stick into the DOM?
  632. # [22:28] <zcorpan_> yeah, that seems error prone...
  633. # [22:29] <zcorpan_> since you don't know the difference between &lt; and <
  634. # [22:29] <zcorpan_> and you'd have to make sure entities aren't parsed twice: &amp;amp;
  635. # [22:30] <shepazu> I argued from the start that <textArea> should be called <textShape> for that very reason
  636. # [22:31] <Philip> The easy solution is to remove text support from SVG, to attain feature parity with canvas
  637. # [22:31] <zcorpan_> that won't fly :)
  638. # [22:32] <shepazu> gah.
  639. # [22:33] <shepazu> alternately, remove everything but test support from SVG, and achieve feature parity (with enhancements) with HTML ;)
  640. # [22:33] * Philip wonders if there's any kind of rough survey of how commonly the various SVG features are used
  641. # [22:33] <shepazu> er, text
  642. # [22:33] <zcorpan_> is there an example or demo where <textArea> contains elements?
  643. # [22:34] <shepazu> in SVG 1.2 Tiny, it can only contain the <tbreak> element, IIRC
  644. # [22:34] <zcorpan_> ok, well that's still a pain
  645. # [22:35] <zcorpan_> (from the legacy text/html point of view i mean)
  646. # [22:35] <shepazu> XML Parsing Error: syntax error
  647. # [22:35] <shepazu> Location: http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/26/ex-c02.svg
  648. # [22:35] <shepazu> Line Number 1, Column 16:<?xml version="1.1"?>\
  649. # [22:35] <shepazu> oops
  650. # [22:35] <shepazu> ww
  651. # [22:35] <zcorpan_> that's why xml 1.1 shouldn't be used... :)
  652. # [22:37] <zcorpan_> can someone explain what the schema means at http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/text.html#TextAreaElement ?
  653. # [22:39] * Joins: mjs (mjs@17.255.103.143)
  654. # [22:39] <zcorpan_> i.e. what is the content model of <textArea>?
  655. # [22:41] * zcorpan_ wants a http://gallery.theopalgroup.com/selectoracle/ for xml schema
  656. # [22:45] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/flowable-text-tiny.txt
  657. # [22:45] <Philip> is a more readable version of http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.2/rng/Tiny-1.2/flowable-text-tiny.rng
  658. # [22:45] <zcorpan_> Philip: thanks
  659. # [22:47] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/Tiny-1.2.html
  660. # [22:47] <Philip> looks more readable, and is the whole schema
  661. # [22:47] <Philip> created via http://www.pantor.com/download.html
  662. # [22:47] <zcorpan_> nice!
  663. # [22:48] <Philip> (from http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.2/rng/Tiny-1.2/Tiny-1.2.rng)
  664. # [22:49] <zcorpan_> svg.TextCommon.group is "notAllowed"
  665. # [22:50] <Philip> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/Tiny-1.2.html#id2320828
  666. # [22:50] <Philip> I've no idea what http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/Tiny-1.2.html#id2263918 is for
  667. # [22:50] <zcorpan_> aha
  668. # [22:50] * Quits: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.81.242) (Ping timeout)
  669. # [22:51] <Philip> (You have to follow the group link twice, then the second 'definitions' link, to get the actual definition)
  670. # [22:52] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: can you put on your RNC glasses and translate this to English for me, please? :)
  671. # [22:55] <zcorpan_> it seems to me that <tspan> and <tbreak> is allowed in <textArea>
  672. # [22:56] * Joins: gavin_ (gavin@99.226.81.242)
  673. # [22:58] <Philip> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/elementTable.html
  674. # [22:58] <Philip> says it allows <text>, a, animate, animateColor, animateMotion, animateTransform, desc, discard, handler, metadata, set, switch, tbreak, title, tspan
  675. # [22:58] <Philip> (most of those coming from svg.TextCommon.group)
  676. # [22:59] <zcorpan_> title? hmm
  677. # [23:00] <zcorpan_> i thought desc and title only made sense as children of svg (or perhaps defs)
  678. # [23:02] <zcorpan_> that table was useful
  679. # [23:02] * Quits: matt (matt@128.30.52.30) (Quit: matt)
  680. # [23:11] * zcorpan_ struggles to find <textArea> used in the wild at all, let alone with elements therein
  681. # [23:15] <zcorpan_> it's also hard to search for, because the results are full of the html <textarea>
  682. # [23:16] * Quits: ROBOd (robod@89.122.216.38) (Quit: http://www.robodesign.ro )
  683. # [23:20] * Joins: mistermuckle (choffman@74.94.176.241)
  684. # [23:27] * Parts: mistermuckle (choffman@74.94.176.241)
  685. # [23:30] <shepazu> zcorpan_, you won't find <svg:textArea> in the wild... it's new in SVG 1.2, and only mobile content uses it right now, because it's not supported except in mobile viewers (including Opera)
  686. # [23:30] <shepazu> I've seen it used, but only in private material
  687. # [23:30] <zcorpan_> shepazu: aha
  688. # [23:30] <zcorpan_> interesting
  689. # [23:31] <shepazu> to them, it was a godsend
  690. # [23:31] <zcorpan_> is it too late to rename the element, even though there isn't significant content using it on the web?
  691. # [23:31] <shepazu> those UAs don't support HTML, and it was a serious problem
  692. # [23:32] <zcorpan_> it sucks to rename elements though :(
  693. # [23:33] <shepazu> zcorpan_: that would tempt me very much... but I suspect it would be very hard... it's referenced widely in other standards (mobile and Java ones)
  694. # [23:33] <shepazu> personally, I have said publicly that we should rename it
  695. # [23:34] <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2007Feb/0078.html
  696. # [23:34] * Quits: mjs (mjs@17.255.103.143) (Quit: mjs)
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  698. # [23:35] <mjs> hmm
  699. # [23:35] <mjs> ah, good
  700. # [23:35] <mjs> I couldn't type on this channel earlier
  701. # [23:35] <mjs> textArea is problematic generally
  702. # [23:35] <zcorpan_> shepazu: ok, although the reasons you listed (confusion in CDF) is not as strong as the text/html integration problems
  703. # [23:36] <mjs> it would be really nice if it were more aligned with CSS text layout, and in general it would be better to use HTML for text and still be able to do advanced SVG text effects
  704. # [23:36] <mjs> (hyatt has brought some text effects to CSS in WebKit but we could do more)
  705. # [23:37] * anne just saw The King of Kong; awesome documentary
  706. # [23:37] <shepazu> mjs, I raised that at a recent SVG telcon (which you would know if you ever showed up, he says, channelling his catholic mother), and in talks with fantasai
  707. # [23:38] <shepazu> mjs, zcorpan_, I would like to have talks about these things with a select set of people (the non-combative ones) at the Tech Plenary
  708. # [23:39] <shepazu> I don't want it to turn into a Reservoir Dogs moment, with everyone pointing guns at everyone else's heads
  709. # [23:40] * zcorpan_ won't be present at the tech plenary, unfortunately
  710. # [23:40] <shepazu> a nice, cordial technical chat might help solve some of these issues
  711. # [23:40] <shepazu> zcorpan_, then you can go to hell!
  712. # [23:40] <zcorpan_> :D
  713. # [23:40] <shepazu> :D
  714. # [23:41] <zcorpan_> actually, i will go to thailand
  715. # [23:41] <mjs> shepazu: I have no plans to ever show up to a telecton, but olliej might
  716. # [23:41] <mjs> shepazu: feel free to specially invite him, especially for that topic
  717. # [23:43] <shepazu> k
  718. # [23:51] * Quits: zcorpan_ (zcorpan@83.227.34.9) (Ping timeout)
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  720. # Session Close: Sat Oct 13 00:00:00 2007

The end :)